Re: [VOTE] KIP-944 Support async runtimes in consumer, votes needed!
Hi Philip, Colin, Chris, Matthias, Kirk, David, Xiangyuan LI,
KIP-944 was extended a bit more to explain why effect systems like Zio
and Cats-effects make it impossible to run code on a specific thread.
I understand that using an effect system is pretty far removed from
writing Java in transaction script style, the style that is probably
used by most Kafka committers. I took me quite some time to get
comfortable with effects. It is not the academic fringe tool as
perceived by many. For me it is a way to quickly and correctly write
serious data processing applications.
Even so, we both use the same Kafka eco-system and supporting different
styles only makes it more rich. IMHO it would be a shame if we can not
live together using the same code base.
Philip, thanks for your support. I hope I have convinced the others as
well by now. If not, I am giving up and I will spend my energy elsewhere.
Kind regards,
Erik.
Op 24-07-2023 om 18:12 schreef Erik van Oosten:
Hello Xiangyuan LI,
I am not familiar with coroutines, nor with Kotlin. You will have to
work with the documentation:
https://kotlinlang.org/docs/coroutines-overview.html
However, I am familiar with Zio and Cats-effects (both Scala
libraries). In both Zio and Cats-effects one creates effects (aka
workflows) which are descriptions of a computation. For example, when
executing the Scala code `val effect = ZIO.attempt(println("Hello
world!"))` one creates only a description; it does not print anything
yet. The language to describe these effects is rich enough to describe
entire applications including things like concurrency. In fact, the
language is so rich, that it is the most convenient way that I know to
safely write highly concurrent and async applications. For many
developer teams the performance penalty (which is real but not big) is
worth it.
To execute a Zio or Cats effect one gives it to the runtime. The
runtime then schedules the work on one of the threads in its
thread-pool. Zio, nor Cats-effects supports running an effect on the
thread that manages the thread-pool.
I hope this clear enough.
Kind regards,
Erik.
Op 24-07-2023 om 05:21 schreef Xiangyuan LI:
Hi Erik:
I read KIP-944 and email list roughly, it seems most Java
developer not
familiar with the conception of "coroutine" so cannot imagine why
code of
one function without Thread.start() may run in separate threads and even
developer couldn't control it. Maybe you need a more elaborate
description
to demonstrate how coroutine code run.
Erik van Oosten 于2023年7月23日周日
17:47写道：
--
Erik van Oosten
e.vanoos...@grons.nl
https://day-to-day-stuff.blogspot.com
Re: [VOTE] KIP-944 Support async runtimes in consumer, votes needed!
Hello Xiangyuan LI,
I am not familiar with coroutines, nor with Kotlin. You will have to
work with the documentation:
https://kotlinlang.org/docs/coroutines-overview.html
However, I am familiar with Zio and Cats-effects (both Scala libraries).
In both Zio and Cats-effects one creates effects (aka workflows) which
are descriptions of a computation. For example, when executing the Scala
code `val effect = ZIO.attempt(println("Hello world!"))` one creates
only a description; it does not print anything yet. The language to
describe these effects is rich enough to describe entire applications
including things like concurrency. In fact, the language is so rich,
that it is the most convenient way that I know to safely write highly
concurrent and async applications. For many developer teams the
performance penalty (which is real but not big) is worth it.
To execute a Zio or Cats effect one gives it to the runtime. The runtime
then schedules the work on one of the threads in its thread-pool. Zio,
nor Cats-effects supports running an effect on the thread that manages
the thread-pool.
I hope this clear enough.
Kind regards,
Erik.
Op 24-07-2023 om 05:21 schreef Xiangyuan LI:
Hi Erik:
I read KIP-944 and email list roughly, it seems most Java developer not
familiar with the conception of "coroutine" so cannot imagine why code of
one function without Thread.start() may run in separate threads and even
developer couldn't control it. Maybe you need a more elaborate description
to demonstrate how coroutine code run.
Erik van Oosten 于2023年7月23日周日 17:47写道：
Hi David,
> Could you elaborate a bit more on why the callbacks must be ran in
another thread vs in the invoker thread?
I have been thinking on how to explain this for 2 months now and it is
not easy. It has something to do with that you cannot control what a
thread is doing if you have to also run on that thread. But I just
realized that /for me/ it really comes down to this:
We want to use Zio in the callback. Zio does not support it.
There are more reasons as can be read in KAFKA-7143. But I do not know
anything about Kotlin so I cannot elaborate on that.
Kind regards,
Erik.
Op 22-07-2023 om 21:39 schreef David Jacot:
Hi Erik,
Thanks for the KIP. I would like to better understand the motivation of
this KIP. I am not familiar with async runtimes so please excuse me if I
ask stupid questions.
Could you elaborate a bit more on why the callbacks must be ran in
another
thread vs in the invoker thread? This is not clear to me. In the example
that you use with the ConsumerRebalanceListener, I would have thought
that
calling commitSync (without changing thread) would have achieved the
same.
The invoker has to wait anyway on the offset commit completion so using
another thread does not bring any benefit here. I suppose that I am
missing something here…
Regarding Chris’ proposal, this feels like a hack to me. The issue with
it
is that we cannot guarantee it in the long term if it is not part of
*the*
Consumer interface.
I second what Chris said. We are all trying to understand the motivation
in
order to find a good solution for Kafka. I apologize if this creates
frustration. This is definitely not our goal.
Best,
David
PS: I just saw that you opened a new KIP based on Chris’ idea. This is
not
necessary. You can just update the current KIP based on the discussion.
Le sam. 22 juil. 2023 à 18:34, Erik van Oosten
a écrit :
Colin, Matthias, Chris,
I have expanded the use case description in KIP-944. I hope it is more
clear what we're trying to achieve.
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/x/chw0Dw
Kind regards,
Erik.
Op 22-07-2023 om 17:23 schreef Erik van Oosten:
Hello Chris,
Thanks for elaborating Matthias' words. Apparently the use case
description is too terse. Indeed, that is not FUD and that is
something I can work with.
It's also worth mentioning that what's proposed in the KIP is only
blocked by the private access modifier on the KafkaConsumer::acquire
and KafkaConsumer::release methods. If we upgraded the visibility of
these methods from private to protected, it would be possible for
subclasses to implement the proposal in KIP-944, without any KIPs or
other changes to the official Java clients library.
That is absolutely brilliant! Since I am pretty sure I am using the
consumer correctly, I could replace acquire and release with an empty
method body and be done.
/Is making acquire and release protected something that other people
can live with?/
If yes, I will create a new PR with just that change.
Kind regards,
Erik.
Op 22-07-2023 om 16:39 schreef Chris Egerton:
Hi Erik,
I don't think Matthias is bringing FUD to the discussion. Many of the
people who maintain Kafka are familiar with Kafka client internals
and the
Java programming language, but not necessarily other JVM languages or
asynchronous runtimes. I think it's reasonable to ask for a code
snippet or
two
Re: [VOTE] KIP-944 Support async runtimes in consumer, votes needed!
Hi Erik: I read KIP-944 and email list roughly, it seems most Java developer not familiar with the conception of "coroutine" so cannot imagine why code of one function without Thread.start() may run in separate threads and even developer couldn't control it. Maybe you need a more elaborate description to demonstrate how coroutine code run. Erik van Oosten 于2023年7月23日周日 17:47写道： > Hi David, > > > Could you elaborate a bit more on why the callbacks must be ran in > another thread vs in the invoker thread? > > I have been thinking on how to explain this for 2 months now and it is > not easy. It has something to do with that you cannot control what a > thread is doing if you have to also run on that thread. But I just > realized that /for me/ it really comes down to this: > > We want to use Zio in the callback. Zio does not support it. > > There are more reasons as can be read in KAFKA-7143. But I do not know > anything about Kotlin so I cannot elaborate on that. > > Kind regards, > Erik. > > Op 22-07-2023 om 21:39 schreef David Jacot: > > Hi Erik, > > > > Thanks for the KIP. I would like to better understand the motivation of > > this KIP. I am not familiar with async runtimes so please excuse me if I > > ask stupid questions. > > > > Could you elaborate a bit more on why the callbacks must be ran in > another > > thread vs in the invoker thread? This is not clear to me. In the example > > that you use with the ConsumerRebalanceListener, I would have thought > that > > calling commitSync (without changing thread) would have achieved the > same. > > The invoker has to wait anyway on the offset commit completion so using > > another thread does not bring any benefit here. I suppose that I am > > missing something here… > > > > Regarding Chris’ proposal, this feels like a hack to me. The issue with > it > > is that we cannot guarantee it in the long term if it is not part of > *the* > > Consumer interface. > > > > I second what Chris said. We are all trying to understand the motivation > in > > order to find a good solution for Kafka. I apologize if this creates > > frustration. This is definitely not our goal. > > > > Best, > > David > > > > PS: I just saw that you opened a new KIP based on Chris’ idea. This is > not > > necessary. You can just update the current KIP based on the discussion. > > > > Le sam. 22 juil. 2023 à 18:34, Erik van Oosten > > > a écrit : > > > >> Colin, Matthias, Chris, > >> > >> I have expanded the use case description in KIP-944. I hope it is more > >> clear what we're trying to achieve. > >> > >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/x/chw0Dw > >> > >> Kind regards, > >> Erik. > >> > >> > >> Op 22-07-2023 om 17:23 schreef Erik van Oosten: > >>> Hello Chris, > >>> > >>> Thanks for elaborating Matthias' words. Apparently the use case > >>> description is too terse. Indeed, that is not FUD and that is > >>> something I can work with. > >>> > It's also worth mentioning that what's proposed in the KIP is only > >>> blocked by the private access modifier on the KafkaConsumer::acquire > >>> and KafkaConsumer::release methods. If we upgraded the visibility of > >>> these methods from private to protected, it would be possible for > >>> subclasses to implement the proposal in KIP-944, without any KIPs or > >>> other changes to the official Java clients library. > >>> > >>> That is absolutely brilliant! Since I am pretty sure I am using the > >>> consumer correctly, I could replace acquire and release with an empty > >>> method body and be done. > >>> > >>> /Is making acquire and release protected something that other people > >>> can live with?/ > >>> If yes, I will create a new PR with just that change. > >>> > >>> Kind regards, > >>> Erik. > >>> > >>> > >>> Op 22-07-2023 om 16:39 schreef Chris Egerton: > Hi Erik, > > I don't think Matthias is bringing FUD to the discussion. Many of the > people who maintain Kafka are familiar with Kafka client internals > and the > Java programming language, but not necessarily other JVM languages or > asynchronous runtimes. I think it's reasonable to ask for a code > snippet or > two that demonstrates what you'd like to do with the consumer today > that > you can't because of restrictions around concurrent access, and this > is not > already addressed in the KIP. Linking to a docs page on Kotlin > coroutines > is helpful but still requires reviewers to gather a lot of context on > their > own that could more easily be provided in the KIP, and although the > description of KAFKA-7143 is more detailed, I find it a little hard to > follow as someone who isn't already familiar with the environment the > user > is working in. > > It's also worth mentioning that what's proposed in the KIP is only > blocked > by the private access modifier on the KafkaConsumer::acquire and > KafkaConsumer::release methods.
Re: [VOTE] KIP-944 Support async runtimes in consumer, votes needed!
Hi David, > Could you elaborate a bit more on why the callbacks must be ran in another thread vs in the invoker thread? I have been thinking on how to explain this for 2 months now and it is not easy. It has something to do with that you cannot control what a thread is doing if you have to also run on that thread. But I just realized that /for me/ it really comes down to this: We want to use Zio in the callback. Zio does not support it. There are more reasons as can be read in KAFKA-7143. But I do not know anything about Kotlin so I cannot elaborate on that. Kind regards, Erik. Op 22-07-2023 om 21:39 schreef David Jacot: Hi Erik, Thanks for the KIP. I would like to better understand the motivation of this KIP. I am not familiar with async runtimes so please excuse me if I ask stupid questions. Could you elaborate a bit more on why the callbacks must be ran in another thread vs in the invoker thread? This is not clear to me. In the example that you use with the ConsumerRebalanceListener, I would have thought that calling commitSync (without changing thread) would have achieved the same. The invoker has to wait anyway on the offset commit completion so using another thread does not bring any benefit here. I suppose that I am missing something here… Regarding Chris’ proposal, this feels like a hack to me. The issue with it is that we cannot guarantee it in the long term if it is not part of *the* Consumer interface. I second what Chris said. We are all trying to understand the motivation in order to find a good solution for Kafka. I apologize if this creates frustration. This is definitely not our goal. Best, David PS: I just saw that you opened a new KIP based on Chris’ idea. This is not necessary. You can just update the current KIP based on the discussion. Le sam. 22 juil. 2023 à 18:34, Erik van Oosten a écrit : Colin, Matthias, Chris, I have expanded the use case description in KIP-944. I hope it is more clear what we're trying to achieve. https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/x/chw0Dw Kind regards, Erik. Op 22-07-2023 om 17:23 schreef Erik van Oosten: Hello Chris, Thanks for elaborating Matthias' words. Apparently the use case description is too terse. Indeed, that is not FUD and that is something I can work with. It's also worth mentioning that what's proposed in the KIP is only blocked by the private access modifier on the KafkaConsumer::acquire and KafkaConsumer::release methods. If we upgraded the visibility of these methods from private to protected, it would be possible for subclasses to implement the proposal in KIP-944, without any KIPs or other changes to the official Java clients library. That is absolutely brilliant! Since I am pretty sure I am using the consumer correctly, I could replace acquire and release with an empty method body and be done. /Is making acquire and release protected something that other people can live with?/ If yes, I will create a new PR with just that change. Kind regards, Erik. Op 22-07-2023 om 16:39 schreef Chris Egerton: Hi Erik, I don't think Matthias is bringing FUD to the discussion. Many of the people who maintain Kafka are familiar with Kafka client internals and the Java programming language, but not necessarily other JVM languages or asynchronous runtimes. I think it's reasonable to ask for a code snippet or two that demonstrates what you'd like to do with the consumer today that you can't because of restrictions around concurrent access, and this is not already addressed in the KIP. Linking to a docs page on Kotlin coroutines is helpful but still requires reviewers to gather a lot of context on their own that could more easily be provided in the KIP, and although the description of KAFKA-7143 is more detailed, I find it a little hard to follow as someone who isn't already familiar with the environment the user is working in. It's also worth mentioning that what's proposed in the KIP is only blocked by the private access modifier on the KafkaConsumer::acquire and KafkaConsumer::release methods. If we upgraded the visibility of these methods from private to protected, it would be possible for subclasses to implement the proposal in KIP-944, without any KIPs or other changes to the official Java clients library. Best, Chris On Sat, Jul 22, 2023 at 4:24 AM Erik van Oosten wrote: Hi Matthias, I am getting a bit frustrated here. All the concerns and questions I have seen so far are addressed in KIP-944. Please let me know if they are not clear enough, but please do not come with FUD. Kind regards, Erik. Op 21-07-2023 om 21:13 schreef Matthias J. Sax: I am not a clients (or threading) expert, but I tend to agree to Colin's concerns. In particular, it would be nice to see an example how you intent to use the API (I am not familiar with Kotlin or it's co-routins), to better understand what this changes help to solve to begin with. Opening up the consumer sounds potentially dangerous
Re: [VOTE] KIP-944 Support async runtimes in consumer, votes needed!
Hi Erik, Thanks for the KIP. I would like to better understand the motivation of this KIP. I am not familiar with async runtimes so please excuse me if I ask stupid questions. Could you elaborate a bit more on why the callbacks must be ran in another thread vs in the invoker thread? This is not clear to me. In the example that you use with the ConsumerRebalanceListener, I would have thought that calling commitSync (without changing thread) would have achieved the same. The invoker has to wait anyway on the offset commit completion so using another thread does not bring any benefit here. I suppose that I am missing something here… Regarding Chris’ proposal, this feels like a hack to me. The issue with it is that we cannot guarantee it in the long term if it is not part of *the* Consumer interface. I second what Chris said. We are all trying to understand the motivation in order to find a good solution for Kafka. I apologize if this creates frustration. This is definitely not our goal. Best, David PS: I just saw that you opened a new KIP based on Chris’ idea. This is not necessary. You can just update the current KIP based on the discussion. Le sam. 22 juil. 2023 à 18:34, Erik van Oosten a écrit : > Colin, Matthias, Chris, > > I have expanded the use case description in KIP-944. I hope it is more > clear what we're trying to achieve. > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/x/chw0Dw > > Kind regards, > Erik. > > > Op 22-07-2023 om 17:23 schreef Erik van Oosten: > > Hello Chris, > > > > Thanks for elaborating Matthias' words. Apparently the use case > > description is too terse. Indeed, that is not FUD and that is > > something I can work with. > > > > > It's also worth mentioning that what's proposed in the KIP is only > > blocked by the private access modifier on the KafkaConsumer::acquire > > and KafkaConsumer::release methods. If we upgraded the visibility of > > these methods from private to protected, it would be possible for > > subclasses to implement the proposal in KIP-944, without any KIPs or > > other changes to the official Java clients library. > > > > That is absolutely brilliant! Since I am pretty sure I am using the > > consumer correctly, I could replace acquire and release with an empty > > method body and be done. > > > > /Is making acquire and release protected something that other people > > can live with?/ > > If yes, I will create a new PR with just that change. > > > > Kind regards, > > Erik. > > > > > > Op 22-07-2023 om 16:39 schreef Chris Egerton: > >> Hi Erik, > >> > >> I don't think Matthias is bringing FUD to the discussion. Many of the > >> people who maintain Kafka are familiar with Kafka client internals > >> and the > >> Java programming language, but not necessarily other JVM languages or > >> asynchronous runtimes. I think it's reasonable to ask for a code > >> snippet or > >> two that demonstrates what you'd like to do with the consumer today that > >> you can't because of restrictions around concurrent access, and this > >> is not > >> already addressed in the KIP. Linking to a docs page on Kotlin > >> coroutines > >> is helpful but still requires reviewers to gather a lot of context on > >> their > >> own that could more easily be provided in the KIP, and although the > >> description of KAFKA-7143 is more detailed, I find it a little hard to > >> follow as someone who isn't already familiar with the environment the > >> user > >> is working in. > >> > >> It's also worth mentioning that what's proposed in the KIP is only > >> blocked > >> by the private access modifier on the KafkaConsumer::acquire and > >> KafkaConsumer::release methods. If we upgraded the visibility of these > >> methods from private to protected, it would be possible for > >> subclasses to > >> implement the proposal in KIP-944, without any KIPs or other changes > >> to the > >> official Java clients library. > >> > >> Best, > >> > >> Chris > >> > >> On Sat, Jul 22, 2023 at 4:24 AM Erik van Oosten > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Matthias, > >>> > >>> I am getting a bit frustrated here. All the concerns and questions I > >>> have seen so far are addressed in KIP-944. > >>> > >>> Please let me know if they are not clear enough, but please do not come > >>> with FUD. > >>> > >>> Kind regards, > >>> Erik. > >>> > >>> > >>> Op 21-07-2023 om 21:13 schreef Matthias J. Sax: > I am not a clients (or threading) expert, but I tend to agree to > Colin's concerns. > > In particular, it would be nice to see an example how you intent to > use the API (I am not familiar with Kotlin or it's co-routins), to > better understand what this changes help to solve to begin with. > > Opening up the consumer sounds potentially dangerous and we should > weight opportunity and risk before making a decision. So far, I see > risks but do not understand the opportunity you are after. > > > -Matthias > > On 7/14/23 11:43 AM, Kirk True
Re: [VOTE] KIP-944 Support async runtimes in consumer, votes needed!
Colin, Matthias, Chris, I have expanded the use case description in KIP-944. I hope it is more clear what we're trying to achieve. https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/x/chw0Dw Kind regards, Erik. Op 22-07-2023 om 17:23 schreef Erik van Oosten: Hello Chris, Thanks for elaborating Matthias' words. Apparently the use case description is too terse. Indeed, that is not FUD and that is something I can work with. > It's also worth mentioning that what's proposed in the KIP is only blocked by the private access modifier on the KafkaConsumer::acquire and KafkaConsumer::release methods. If we upgraded the visibility of these methods from private to protected, it would be possible for subclasses to implement the proposal in KIP-944, without any KIPs or other changes to the official Java clients library. That is absolutely brilliant! Since I am pretty sure I am using the consumer correctly, I could replace acquire and release with an empty method body and be done. /Is making acquire and release protected something that other people can live with?/ If yes, I will create a new PR with just that change. Kind regards, Erik. Op 22-07-2023 om 16:39 schreef Chris Egerton: Hi Erik, I don't think Matthias is bringing FUD to the discussion. Many of the people who maintain Kafka are familiar with Kafka client internals and the Java programming language, but not necessarily other JVM languages or asynchronous runtimes. I think it's reasonable to ask for a code snippet or two that demonstrates what you'd like to do with the consumer today that you can't because of restrictions around concurrent access, and this is not already addressed in the KIP. Linking to a docs page on Kotlin coroutines is helpful but still requires reviewers to gather a lot of context on their own that could more easily be provided in the KIP, and although the description of KAFKA-7143 is more detailed, I find it a little hard to follow as someone who isn't already familiar with the environment the user is working in. It's also worth mentioning that what's proposed in the KIP is only blocked by the private access modifier on the KafkaConsumer::acquire and KafkaConsumer::release methods. If we upgraded the visibility of these methods from private to protected, it would be possible for subclasses to implement the proposal in KIP-944, without any KIPs or other changes to the official Java clients library. Best, Chris On Sat, Jul 22, 2023 at 4:24 AM Erik van Oosten wrote: Hi Matthias, I am getting a bit frustrated here. All the concerns and questions I have seen so far are addressed in KIP-944. Please let me know if they are not clear enough, but please do not come with FUD. Kind regards, Erik. Op 21-07-2023 om 21:13 schreef Matthias J. Sax: I am not a clients (or threading) expert, but I tend to agree to Colin's concerns. In particular, it would be nice to see an example how you intent to use the API (I am not familiar with Kotlin or it's co-routins), to better understand what this changes help to solve to begin with. Opening up the consumer sounds potentially dangerous and we should weight opportunity and risk before making a decision. So far, I see risks but do not understand the opportunity you are after. -Matthias On 7/14/23 11:43 AM, Kirk True wrote: Hi Erik, Thanks for the KIP! I empathize with your frustration over the radio silence. It gets like that sometimes, and I apologize for my lack of feedback. I’d personally like to see this lively exchange move over to the DISCUSS thread you’d created before. Thanks, Kirk On Jul 14, 2023, at 1:33 AM, Erik van Oosten wrote: Hi Colin, The way I understood Philp's message is that KIP-944 also plays nice with KIP-945. But I might be mistaken. Regardless, KIP-945 does /not/ resolve the underlying problem (the need for nested consumer invocations) because it has the explicit goal of not changing the user facing API. ... KIP-945 but haven't posted a DISCUSS thread yet There is a thread called 'KafkaConsumer refactor proposal', but indeed no official discussion yet. I really don't want to be debugging complex interactions between Java thread-local variables and green threads. In that email thread, I proposed an API change in which callbacks are no longer needed. The proposal completely removes the need for such complex interactions. In addition, it gives clients the ability to process at full speed even while a coorperative rebalance is ongoing. Regards, Erik. Op 14-07-2023 om 00:36 schreef Colin McCabe: HI Philip & Erik, Hmm... if we agree that KIP-945 addresses this use case, I think it would be better to just focus on that KIP. Fundamentally it's a better and cleaner model than a complex scheme involving thread-local variables. I really don't want to be debugging complex interactions between Java thread-local variables and green threads. It also generally helps to have some use-cases in mind when writing
Re: [VOTE] KIP-944 Support async runtimes in consumer, votes needed!
Hi Erik, I'm glad that this alternative is agreeable to you! Just to be clear though, it does still technically require a KIP since it's still a change to public API (just a much smaller one). And if we do decide to pursue this approach, we'll have to define the expected contract for this method so that it can be maintained correctly and documented for developers who may otherwise be confused and misuse the method. Cheers, Chris On Sat, Jul 22, 2023 at 12:02 PM Erik van Oosten wrote: > Hi all, > > I have created https://github.com/apache/kafka/pull/14071 to implement > Chris' idea. > > Kind regards, > Erik. > > > Op 22-07-2023 om 16:39 schreef Chris Egerton: > > Hi Erik, > > > > I don't think Matthias is bringing FUD to the discussion. Many of the > > people who maintain Kafka are familiar with Kafka client internals and > the > > Java programming language, but not necessarily other JVM languages or > > asynchronous runtimes. I think it's reasonable to ask for a code snippet > or > > two that demonstrates what you'd like to do with the consumer today that > > you can't because of restrictions around concurrent access, and this is > not > > already addressed in the KIP. Linking to a docs page on Kotlin coroutines > > is helpful but still requires reviewers to gather a lot of context on > their > > own that could more easily be provided in the KIP, and although the > > description of KAFKA-7143 is more detailed, I find it a little hard to > > follow as someone who isn't already familiar with the environment the > user > > is working in. > > > > It's also worth mentioning that what's proposed in the KIP is only > blocked > > by the private access modifier on the KafkaConsumer::acquire and > > KafkaConsumer::release methods. If we upgraded the visibility of these > > methods from private to protected, it would be possible for subclasses to > > implement the proposal in KIP-944, without any KIPs or other changes to > the > > official Java clients library. > > > > Best, > > > > Chris > > > > On Sat, Jul 22, 2023 at 4:24 AM Erik van Oosten > > wrote: > > > >> Hi Matthias, > >> > >> I am getting a bit frustrated here. All the concerns and questions I > >> have seen so far are addressed in KIP-944. > >> > >> Please let me know if they are not clear enough, but please do not come > >> with FUD. > >> > >> Kind regards, > >> Erik. > >> > >> > >> Op 21-07-2023 om 21:13 schreef Matthias J. Sax: > >>> I am not a clients (or threading) expert, but I tend to agree to > >>> Colin's concerns. > >>> > >>> In particular, it would be nice to see an example how you intent to > >>> use the API (I am not familiar with Kotlin or it's co-routins), to > >>> better understand what this changes help to solve to begin with. > >>> > >>> Opening up the consumer sounds potentially dangerous and we should > >>> weight opportunity and risk before making a decision. So far, I see > >>> risks but do not understand the opportunity you are after. > >>> > >>> > >>> -Matthias > >>> > >>> On 7/14/23 11:43 AM, Kirk True wrote: > Hi Erik, > > Thanks for the KIP! > > I empathize with your frustration over the radio silence. It gets > like that sometimes, and I apologize for my lack of feedback. > > I’d personally like to see this lively exchange move over to the > DISCUSS thread you’d created before. > > Thanks, > Kirk > > > On Jul 14, 2023, at 1:33 AM, Erik van Oosten > > wrote: > > > > Hi Colin, > > > > The way I understood Philp's message is that KIP-944 also plays nice > > with KIP-945. But I might be mistaken. > > > > Regardless, KIP-945 does /not/ resolve the underlying problem (the > > need for nested consumer invocations) because it has the explicit > > goal of not changing the user facing API. > > > >> ... KIP-945 but haven't posted a DISCUSS thread yet > > There is a thread called 'KafkaConsumer refactor proposal', but > > indeed no official discussion yet. > > > >> I really don't want to be debugging complex interactions between > >> Java thread-local variables and green threads. > > In that email thread, I proposed an API change in which callbacks > > are no longer needed. The proposal completely removes the need for > > such complex interactions. In addition, it gives clients the ability > > to process at full speed even while a coorperative rebalance is > > ongoing. > > > > Regards, > > Erik. > > > > Op 14-07-2023 om 00:36 schreef Colin McCabe: > >> HI Philip & Erik, > >> > >> Hmm... if we agree that KIP-945 addresses this use case, I think it > >> would be better to just focus on that KIP. Fundamentally it's a > >> better and cleaner model than a complex scheme involving > >> thread-local variables. I really don't want to be debugging complex > >> interactions between Java thread-local variables and green
Re: [VOTE] KIP-944 Support async runtimes in consumer, votes needed!
Hi all, I have created https://github.com/apache/kafka/pull/14071 to implement Chris' idea. Kind regards, Erik. Op 22-07-2023 om 16:39 schreef Chris Egerton: Hi Erik, I don't think Matthias is bringing FUD to the discussion. Many of the people who maintain Kafka are familiar with Kafka client internals and the Java programming language, but not necessarily other JVM languages or asynchronous runtimes. I think it's reasonable to ask for a code snippet or two that demonstrates what you'd like to do with the consumer today that you can't because of restrictions around concurrent access, and this is not already addressed in the KIP. Linking to a docs page on Kotlin coroutines is helpful but still requires reviewers to gather a lot of context on their own that could more easily be provided in the KIP, and although the description of KAFKA-7143 is more detailed, I find it a little hard to follow as someone who isn't already familiar with the environment the user is working in. It's also worth mentioning that what's proposed in the KIP is only blocked by the private access modifier on the KafkaConsumer::acquire and KafkaConsumer::release methods. If we upgraded the visibility of these methods from private to protected, it would be possible for subclasses to implement the proposal in KIP-944, without any KIPs or other changes to the official Java clients library. Best, Chris On Sat, Jul 22, 2023 at 4:24 AM Erik van Oosten wrote: Hi Matthias, I am getting a bit frustrated here. All the concerns and questions I have seen so far are addressed in KIP-944. Please let me know if they are not clear enough, but please do not come with FUD. Kind regards, Erik. Op 21-07-2023 om 21:13 schreef Matthias J. Sax: I am not a clients (or threading) expert, but I tend to agree to Colin's concerns. In particular, it would be nice to see an example how you intent to use the API (I am not familiar with Kotlin or it's co-routins), to better understand what this changes help to solve to begin with. Opening up the consumer sounds potentially dangerous and we should weight opportunity and risk before making a decision. So far, I see risks but do not understand the opportunity you are after. -Matthias On 7/14/23 11:43 AM, Kirk True wrote: Hi Erik, Thanks for the KIP! I empathize with your frustration over the radio silence. It gets like that sometimes, and I apologize for my lack of feedback. I’d personally like to see this lively exchange move over to the DISCUSS thread you’d created before. Thanks, Kirk On Jul 14, 2023, at 1:33 AM, Erik van Oosten wrote: Hi Colin, The way I understood Philp's message is that KIP-944 also plays nice with KIP-945. But I might be mistaken. Regardless, KIP-945 does /not/ resolve the underlying problem (the need for nested consumer invocations) because it has the explicit goal of not changing the user facing API. ... KIP-945 but haven't posted a DISCUSS thread yet There is a thread called 'KafkaConsumer refactor proposal', but indeed no official discussion yet. I really don't want to be debugging complex interactions between Java thread-local variables and green threads. In that email thread, I proposed an API change in which callbacks are no longer needed. The proposal completely removes the need for such complex interactions. In addition, it gives clients the ability to process at full speed even while a coorperative rebalance is ongoing. Regards, Erik. Op 14-07-2023 om 00:36 schreef Colin McCabe: HI Philip & Erik, Hmm... if we agree that KIP-945 addresses this use case, I think it would be better to just focus on that KIP. Fundamentally it's a better and cleaner model than a complex scheme involving thread-local variables. I really don't want to be debugging complex interactions between Java thread-local variables and green threads. It also generally helps to have some use-cases in mind when writing these things. If we get feedback about what would be useful for async runtimes, that would probably help improve and focus KIP-945. By the way, I can see you have a draft on the wiki for KIP-945 but haven't posted a DISCUSS thread yet, so I assume it's not ready for review yet ;) best, Colin On Tue, Jul 11, 2023, at 12:24, Philip Nee wrote: Hey Erik - Another thing I want to add to my comment is. We are in-process of re-writing the KafkaConsumer, and I think your proposal would work in the new consumer because we are going to separate the user thread and the background thread. Here is the 1-pager, and we are in process of converting this in to KIP-945. Thanks, P On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 10:33 AM Philip Nee wrote: Hey Erik, Sorry for holding up this email for a few days since Colin's response includes some of my concerns. I'm in favor of this KIP, and I think your approach seems safe. Of course, I probably missed something therefore I think this KIP needs to cover different use cases to demonstrate it doesn't cause any unsafe access.
Re: [VOTE] KIP-944 Support async runtimes in consumer, votes needed!
Hello Chris, Thanks for elaborating Matthias' words. Apparently the use case description is too terse. Indeed, that is not FUD and that is something I can work with. > It's also worth mentioning that what's proposed in the KIP is only blocked by the private access modifier on the KafkaConsumer::acquire and KafkaConsumer::release methods. If we upgraded the visibility of these methods from private to protected, it would be possible for subclasses to implement the proposal in KIP-944, without any KIPs or other changes to the official Java clients library. That is absolutely brilliant! Since I am pretty sure I am using the consumer correctly, I could replace acquire and release with an empty method body and be done. /Is making acquire and release protected something that other people can live with?/ If yes, I will create a new PR with just that change. Kind regards, Erik. Op 22-07-2023 om 16:39 schreef Chris Egerton: Hi Erik, I don't think Matthias is bringing FUD to the discussion. Many of the people who maintain Kafka are familiar with Kafka client internals and the Java programming language, but not necessarily other JVM languages or asynchronous runtimes. I think it's reasonable to ask for a code snippet or two that demonstrates what you'd like to do with the consumer today that you can't because of restrictions around concurrent access, and this is not already addressed in the KIP. Linking to a docs page on Kotlin coroutines is helpful but still requires reviewers to gather a lot of context on their own that could more easily be provided in the KIP, and although the description of KAFKA-7143 is more detailed, I find it a little hard to follow as someone who isn't already familiar with the environment the user is working in. It's also worth mentioning that what's proposed in the KIP is only blocked by the private access modifier on the KafkaConsumer::acquire and KafkaConsumer::release methods. If we upgraded the visibility of these methods from private to protected, it would be possible for subclasses to implement the proposal in KIP-944, without any KIPs or other changes to the official Java clients library. Best, Chris On Sat, Jul 22, 2023 at 4:24 AM Erik van Oosten wrote: Hi Matthias, I am getting a bit frustrated here. All the concerns and questions I have seen so far are addressed in KIP-944. Please let me know if they are not clear enough, but please do not come with FUD. Kind regards, Erik. Op 21-07-2023 om 21:13 schreef Matthias J. Sax: I am not a clients (or threading) expert, but I tend to agree to Colin's concerns. In particular, it would be nice to see an example how you intent to use the API (I am not familiar with Kotlin or it's co-routins), to better understand what this changes help to solve to begin with. Opening up the consumer sounds potentially dangerous and we should weight opportunity and risk before making a decision. So far, I see risks but do not understand the opportunity you are after. -Matthias On 7/14/23 11:43 AM, Kirk True wrote: Hi Erik, Thanks for the KIP! I empathize with your frustration over the radio silence. It gets like that sometimes, and I apologize for my lack of feedback. I’d personally like to see this lively exchange move over to the DISCUSS thread you’d created before. Thanks, Kirk On Jul 14, 2023, at 1:33 AM, Erik van Oosten wrote: Hi Colin, The way I understood Philp's message is that KIP-944 also plays nice with KIP-945. But I might be mistaken. Regardless, KIP-945 does /not/ resolve the underlying problem (the need for nested consumer invocations) because it has the explicit goal of not changing the user facing API. ... KIP-945 but haven't posted a DISCUSS thread yet There is a thread called 'KafkaConsumer refactor proposal', but indeed no official discussion yet. I really don't want to be debugging complex interactions between Java thread-local variables and green threads. In that email thread, I proposed an API change in which callbacks are no longer needed. The proposal completely removes the need for such complex interactions. In addition, it gives clients the ability to process at full speed even while a coorperative rebalance is ongoing. Regards, Erik. Op 14-07-2023 om 00:36 schreef Colin McCabe: HI Philip & Erik, Hmm... if we agree that KIP-945 addresses this use case, I think it would be better to just focus on that KIP. Fundamentally it's a better and cleaner model than a complex scheme involving thread-local variables. I really don't want to be debugging complex interactions between Java thread-local variables and green threads. It also generally helps to have some use-cases in mind when writing these things. If we get feedback about what would be useful for async runtimes, that would probably help improve and focus KIP-945. By the way, I can see you have a draft on the wiki for KIP-945 but haven't posted a DISCUSS thread yet, so I assume it's not ready for review
Re: [VOTE] KIP-944 Support async runtimes in consumer, votes needed!
Hi Erik, I don't think Matthias is bringing FUD to the discussion. Many of the people who maintain Kafka are familiar with Kafka client internals and the Java programming language, but not necessarily other JVM languages or asynchronous runtimes. I think it's reasonable to ask for a code snippet or two that demonstrates what you'd like to do with the consumer today that you can't because of restrictions around concurrent access, and this is not already addressed in the KIP. Linking to a docs page on Kotlin coroutines is helpful but still requires reviewers to gather a lot of context on their own that could more easily be provided in the KIP, and although the description of KAFKA-7143 is more detailed, I find it a little hard to follow as someone who isn't already familiar with the environment the user is working in. It's also worth mentioning that what's proposed in the KIP is only blocked by the private access modifier on the KafkaConsumer::acquire and KafkaConsumer::release methods. If we upgraded the visibility of these methods from private to protected, it would be possible for subclasses to implement the proposal in KIP-944, without any KIPs or other changes to the official Java clients library. Best, Chris On Sat, Jul 22, 2023 at 4:24 AM Erik van Oosten wrote: > Hi Matthias, > > I am getting a bit frustrated here. All the concerns and questions I > have seen so far are addressed in KIP-944. > > Please let me know if they are not clear enough, but please do not come > with FUD. > > Kind regards, > Erik. > > > Op 21-07-2023 om 21:13 schreef Matthias J. Sax: > > I am not a clients (or threading) expert, but I tend to agree to > > Colin's concerns. > > > > In particular, it would be nice to see an example how you intent to > > use the API (I am not familiar with Kotlin or it's co-routins), to > > better understand what this changes help to solve to begin with. > > > > Opening up the consumer sounds potentially dangerous and we should > > weight opportunity and risk before making a decision. So far, I see > > risks but do not understand the opportunity you are after. > > > > > > -Matthias > > > > On 7/14/23 11:43 AM, Kirk True wrote: > >> Hi Erik, > >> > >> Thanks for the KIP! > >> > >> I empathize with your frustration over the radio silence. It gets > >> like that sometimes, and I apologize for my lack of feedback. > >> > >> I’d personally like to see this lively exchange move over to the > >> DISCUSS thread you’d created before. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Kirk > >> > >>> On Jul 14, 2023, at 1:33 AM, Erik van Oosten > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi Colin, > >>> > >>> The way I understood Philp's message is that KIP-944 also plays nice > >>> with KIP-945. But I might be mistaken. > >>> > >>> Regardless, KIP-945 does /not/ resolve the underlying problem (the > >>> need for nested consumer invocations) because it has the explicit > >>> goal of not changing the user facing API. > >>> > ... KIP-945 but haven't posted a DISCUSS thread yet > >>> > >>> There is a thread called 'KafkaConsumer refactor proposal', but > >>> indeed no official discussion yet. > >>> > I really don't want to be debugging complex interactions between > Java thread-local variables and green threads. > >>> > >>> In that email thread, I proposed an API change in which callbacks > >>> are no longer needed. The proposal completely removes the need for > >>> such complex interactions. In addition, it gives clients the ability > >>> to process at full speed even while a coorperative rebalance is > >>> ongoing. > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> Erik. > >>> > >>> Op 14-07-2023 om 00:36 schreef Colin McCabe: > HI Philip & Erik, > > Hmm... if we agree that KIP-945 addresses this use case, I think it > would be better to just focus on that KIP. Fundamentally it's a > better and cleaner model than a complex scheme involving > thread-local variables. I really don't want to be debugging complex > interactions between Java thread-local variables and green threads. > > It also generally helps to have some use-cases in mind when writing > these things. If we get feedback about what would be useful for > async runtimes, that would probably help improve and focus KIP-945. > By the way, I can see you have a draft on the wiki for KIP-945 but > haven't posted a DISCUSS thread yet, so I assume it's not ready for > review yet ;) > > best, > Colin > > > On Tue, Jul 11, 2023, at 12:24, Philip Nee wrote: > > Hey Erik - Another thing I want to add to my comment is. We are > > in-process > > of re-writing the KafkaConsumer, and I think your proposal would > > work in > > the new consumer because we are going to separate the user thread > > and the > > background thread. Here is the 1-pager, and we are in process of > > converting this in to KIP-945. > > > > Thanks, > > P > > > > On Tue, Jul 11,
Re: [VOTE] KIP-944 Support async runtimes in consumer, votes needed!
Hi Matthias, I am getting a bit frustrated here. All the concerns and questions I have seen so far are addressed in KIP-944. Please let me know if they are not clear enough, but please do not come with FUD. Kind regards, Erik. Op 21-07-2023 om 21:13 schreef Matthias J. Sax: I am not a clients (or threading) expert, but I tend to agree to Colin's concerns. In particular, it would be nice to see an example how you intent to use the API (I am not familiar with Kotlin or it's co-routins), to better understand what this changes help to solve to begin with. Opening up the consumer sounds potentially dangerous and we should weight opportunity and risk before making a decision. So far, I see risks but do not understand the opportunity you are after. -Matthias On 7/14/23 11:43 AM, Kirk True wrote: Hi Erik, Thanks for the KIP! I empathize with your frustration over the radio silence. It gets like that sometimes, and I apologize for my lack of feedback. I’d personally like to see this lively exchange move over to the DISCUSS thread you’d created before. Thanks, Kirk On Jul 14, 2023, at 1:33 AM, Erik van Oosten wrote: Hi Colin, The way I understood Philp's message is that KIP-944 also plays nice with KIP-945. But I might be mistaken. Regardless, KIP-945 does /not/ resolve the underlying problem (the need for nested consumer invocations) because it has the explicit goal of not changing the user facing API. ... KIP-945 but haven't posted a DISCUSS thread yet There is a thread called 'KafkaConsumer refactor proposal', but indeed no official discussion yet. I really don't want to be debugging complex interactions between Java thread-local variables and green threads. In that email thread, I proposed an API change in which callbacks are no longer needed. The proposal completely removes the need for such complex interactions. In addition, it gives clients the ability to process at full speed even while a coorperative rebalance is ongoing. Regards, Erik. Op 14-07-2023 om 00:36 schreef Colin McCabe: HI Philip & Erik, Hmm... if we agree that KIP-945 addresses this use case, I think it would be better to just focus on that KIP. Fundamentally it's a better and cleaner model than a complex scheme involving thread-local variables. I really don't want to be debugging complex interactions between Java thread-local variables and green threads. It also generally helps to have some use-cases in mind when writing these things. If we get feedback about what would be useful for async runtimes, that would probably help improve and focus KIP-945. By the way, I can see you have a draft on the wiki for KIP-945 but haven't posted a DISCUSS thread yet, so I assume it's not ready for review yet ;) best, Colin On Tue, Jul 11, 2023, at 12:24, Philip Nee wrote: Hey Erik - Another thing I want to add to my comment is. We are in-process of re-writing the KafkaConsumer, and I think your proposal would work in the new consumer because we are going to separate the user thread and the background thread. Here is the 1-pager, and we are in process of converting this in to KIP-945. Thanks, P On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 10:33 AM Philip Nee wrote: Hey Erik, Sorry for holding up this email for a few days since Colin's response includes some of my concerns. I'm in favor of this KIP, and I think your approach seems safe. Of course, I probably missed something therefore I think this KIP needs to cover different use cases to demonstrate it doesn't cause any unsafe access. I think this can be demonstrated via diagrams and some code in the KIP. Thanks, P On Sat, Jul 8, 2023 at 12:28 PM Erik van Oosten wrote: Hello Colin, >> In KIP-944, the callback thread can only delegate to another thread after reading from and writing to a threadlocal variable, providing the barriers right there. > I don't see any documentation that accessing thread local variables provides a total store or load barrier. Do you have such documentation? It seems like if this were the case, we could eliminate volatile variables from most of the code base. Now I was imprecise. The thread-locals are only somewhat involved. In the KIP proposal the callback thread reads an access key from a thread-local variable. It then needs to pass that access key to another thread, which then can set it on its own thread-local variable. The act of passing a value from one thread to another implies that a memory barrier needs to be passed. However, this is all not so relevant since there is no need to pass the access key back when the other thread is done. But now I think about it a bit more, the locking mechanism runs in a synchronized block. If I remember correctly this should be enough to pass read and write barriers. >> In the current implementation the consumer is also invoked from random threads. If it works now, it should continue to work. > I'm not sure what you're
Re: [VOTE] KIP-944 Support async runtimes in consumer, votes needed!
I am not a clients (or threading) expert, but I tend to agree to Colin's concerns. In particular, it would be nice to see an example how you intent to use the API (I am not familiar with Kotlin or it's co-routins), to better understand what this changes help to solve to begin with. Opening up the consumer sounds potentially dangerous and we should weight opportunity and risk before making a decision. So far, I see risks but do not understand the opportunity you are after. -Matthias On 7/14/23 11:43 AM, Kirk True wrote: Hi Erik, Thanks for the KIP! I empathize with your frustration over the radio silence. It gets like that sometimes, and I apologize for my lack of feedback. I’d personally like to see this lively exchange move over to the DISCUSS thread you’d created before. Thanks, Kirk On Jul 14, 2023, at 1:33 AM, Erik van Oosten wrote: Hi Colin, The way I understood Philp's message is that KIP-944 also plays nice with KIP-945. But I might be mistaken. Regardless, KIP-945 does /not/ resolve the underlying problem (the need for nested consumer invocations) because it has the explicit goal of not changing the user facing API. ... KIP-945 but haven't posted a DISCUSS thread yet There is a thread called 'KafkaConsumer refactor proposal', but indeed no official discussion yet. I really don't want to be debugging complex interactions between Java thread-local variables and green threads. In that email thread, I proposed an API change in which callbacks are no longer needed. The proposal completely removes the need for such complex interactions. In addition, it gives clients the ability to process at full speed even while a coorperative rebalance is ongoing. Regards, Erik. Op 14-07-2023 om 00:36 schreef Colin McCabe: HI Philip & Erik, Hmm... if we agree that KIP-945 addresses this use case, I think it would be better to just focus on that KIP. Fundamentally it's a better and cleaner model than a complex scheme involving thread-local variables. I really don't want to be debugging complex interactions between Java thread-local variables and green threads. It also generally helps to have some use-cases in mind when writing these things. If we get feedback about what would be useful for async runtimes, that would probably help improve and focus KIP-945. By the way, I can see you have a draft on the wiki for KIP-945 but haven't posted a DISCUSS thread yet, so I assume it's not ready for review yet ;) best, Colin On Tue, Jul 11, 2023, at 12:24, Philip Nee wrote: Hey Erik - Another thing I want to add to my comment is. We are in-process of re-writing the KafkaConsumer, and I think your proposal would work in the new consumer because we are going to separate the user thread and the background thread. Here is the 1-pager, and we are in process of converting this in to KIP-945. Thanks, P On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 10:33 AM Philip Nee wrote: Hey Erik, Sorry for holding up this email for a few days since Colin's response includes some of my concerns. I'm in favor of this KIP, and I think your approach seems safe. Of course, I probably missed something therefore I think this KIP needs to cover different use cases to demonstrate it doesn't cause any unsafe access. I think this can be demonstrated via diagrams and some code in the KIP. Thanks, P On Sat, Jul 8, 2023 at 12:28 PM Erik van Oosten wrote: Hello Colin, >> In KIP-944, the callback thread can only delegate to another thread after reading from and writing to a threadlocal variable, providing the barriers right there. > I don't see any documentation that accessing thread local variables provides a total store or load barrier. Do you have such documentation? It seems like if this were the case, we could eliminate volatile variables from most of the code base. Now I was imprecise. The thread-locals are only somewhat involved. In the KIP proposal the callback thread reads an access key from a thread-local variable. It then needs to pass that access key to another thread, which then can set it on its own thread-local variable. The act of passing a value from one thread to another implies that a memory barrier needs to be passed. However, this is all not so relevant since there is no need to pass the access key back when the other thread is done. But now I think about it a bit more, the locking mechanism runs in a synchronized block. If I remember correctly this should be enough to pass read and write barriers. >> In the current implementation the consumer is also invoked from random threads. If it works now, it should continue to work. > I'm not sure what you're referring to. Can you expand on this? Any invocation of the consumer (e.g. method poll) is not from a thread managed by the consumer. This is what I was assuming you meant with the term 'random thread'. > Hmm, not sure what you mean by "cooperate with blocking code." If you have 10 green threads you're multiplexing on to one
Re: [VOTE] KIP-944 Support async runtimes in consumer, votes needed!
Hi Erik, Thanks for the KIP! I empathize with your frustration over the radio silence. It gets like that sometimes, and I apologize for my lack of feedback. I’d personally like to see this lively exchange move over to the DISCUSS thread you’d created before. Thanks, Kirk > On Jul 14, 2023, at 1:33 AM, Erik van Oosten > wrote: > > Hi Colin, > > The way I understood Philp's message is that KIP-944 also plays nice with > KIP-945. But I might be mistaken. > > Regardless, KIP-945 does /not/ resolve the underlying problem (the need for > nested consumer invocations) because it has the explicit goal of not changing > the user facing API. > > > ... KIP-945 but haven't posted a DISCUSS thread yet > > There is a thread called 'KafkaConsumer refactor proposal', but indeed no > official discussion yet. > > > I really don't want to be debugging complex interactions between Java > > thread-local variables and green threads. > > In that email thread, I proposed an API change in which callbacks are no > longer needed. The proposal completely removes the need for such complex > interactions. In addition, it gives clients the ability to process at full > speed even while a coorperative rebalance is ongoing. > > Regards, > Erik. > > Op 14-07-2023 om 00:36 schreef Colin McCabe: >> HI Philip & Erik, >> >> Hmm... if we agree that KIP-945 addresses this use case, I think it would be >> better to just focus on that KIP. Fundamentally it's a better and cleaner >> model than a complex scheme involving thread-local variables. I really don't >> want to be debugging complex interactions between Java thread-local >> variables and green threads. >> >> It also generally helps to have some use-cases in mind when writing these >> things. If we get feedback about what would be useful for async runtimes, >> that would probably help improve and focus KIP-945. By the way, I can see >> you have a draft on the wiki for KIP-945 but haven't posted a DISCUSS thread >> yet, so I assume it's not ready for review yet ;) >> >> best, >> Colin >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 11, 2023, at 12:24, Philip Nee wrote: >>> Hey Erik - Another thing I want to add to my comment is. We are in-process >>> of re-writing the KafkaConsumer, and I think your proposal would work in >>> the new consumer because we are going to separate the user thread and the >>> background thread. Here is the 1-pager, and we are in process of >>> converting this in to KIP-945. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> P >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 10:33 AM Philip Nee wrote: >>> Hey Erik, Sorry for holding up this email for a few days since Colin's response includes some of my concerns. I'm in favor of this KIP, and I think your approach seems safe. Of course, I probably missed something therefore I think this KIP needs to cover different use cases to demonstrate it doesn't cause any unsafe access. I think this can be demonstrated via diagrams and some code in the KIP. Thanks, P On Sat, Jul 8, 2023 at 12:28 PM Erik van Oosten wrote: > Hello Colin, > > >> In KIP-944, the callback thread can only delegate to another thread > after reading from and writing to a threadlocal variable, providing the > barriers right there. > > > I don't see any documentation that accessing thread local variables > provides a total store or load barrier. Do you have such documentation? > It seems like if this were the case, we could eliminate volatile > variables from most of the code base. > > Now I was imprecise. The thread-locals are only somewhat involved. In > the KIP proposal the callback thread reads an access key from a > thread-local variable. It then needs to pass that access key to another > thread, which then can set it on its own thread-local variable. The act > of passing a value from one thread to another implies that a memory > barrier needs to be passed. However, this is all not so relevant since > there is no need to pass the access key back when the other thread is > done. > > But now I think about it a bit more, the locking mechanism runs in a > synchronized block. If I remember correctly this should be enough to > pass read and write barriers. > > >> In the current implementation the consumer is also invoked from > random threads. If it works now, it should continue to work. > > I'm not sure what you're referring to. Can you expand on this? > > Any invocation of the consumer (e.g. method poll) is not from a thread > managed by the consumer. This is what I was assuming you meant with the > term 'random thread'. > > > Hmm, not sure what you mean by "cooperate with blocking code." If you > have 10 green threads you're multiplexing on to one CPU thread, and that > CPU thread gets blocked because of what one green thread is doing, the > other
Re: [VOTE] KIP-944 Support async runtimes in consumer, votes needed!
Hi Colin, The way I understood Philp's message is that KIP-944 also plays nice with KIP-945. But I might be mistaken. Regardless, KIP-945 does /not/ resolve the underlying problem (the need for nested consumer invocations) because it has the explicit goal of not changing the user facing API. > ... KIP-945 but haven't posted a DISCUSS thread yet There is a thread called 'KafkaConsumer refactor proposal', but indeed no official discussion yet. > I really don't want to be debugging complex interactions between Java thread-local variables and green threads. In that email thread, I proposed an API change in which callbacks are no longer needed. The proposal completely removes the need for such complex interactions. In addition, it gives clients the ability to process at full speed even while a coorperative rebalance is ongoing. Regards, Erik. Op 14-07-2023 om 00:36 schreef Colin McCabe: HI Philip & Erik, Hmm... if we agree that KIP-945 addresses this use case, I think it would be better to just focus on that KIP. Fundamentally it's a better and cleaner model than a complex scheme involving thread-local variables. I really don't want to be debugging complex interactions between Java thread-local variables and green threads. It also generally helps to have some use-cases in mind when writing these things. If we get feedback about what would be useful for async runtimes, that would probably help improve and focus KIP-945. By the way, I can see you have a draft on the wiki for KIP-945 but haven't posted a DISCUSS thread yet, so I assume it's not ready for review yet ;) best, Colin On Tue, Jul 11, 2023, at 12:24, Philip Nee wrote: Hey Erik - Another thing I want to add to my comment is. We are in-process of re-writing the KafkaConsumer, and I think your proposal would work in the new consumer because we are going to separate the user thread and the background thread. Here is the 1-pager, and we are in process of converting this in to KIP-945. Thanks, P On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 10:33 AM Philip Nee wrote: Hey Erik, Sorry for holding up this email for a few days since Colin's response includes some of my concerns. I'm in favor of this KIP, and I think your approach seems safe. Of course, I probably missed something therefore I think this KIP needs to cover different use cases to demonstrate it doesn't cause any unsafe access. I think this can be demonstrated via diagrams and some code in the KIP. Thanks, P On Sat, Jul 8, 2023 at 12:28 PM Erik van Oosten wrote: Hello Colin, >> In KIP-944, the callback thread can only delegate to another thread after reading from and writing to a threadlocal variable, providing the barriers right there. > I don't see any documentation that accessing thread local variables provides a total store or load barrier. Do you have such documentation? It seems like if this were the case, we could eliminate volatile variables from most of the code base. Now I was imprecise. The thread-locals are only somewhat involved. In the KIP proposal the callback thread reads an access key from a thread-local variable. It then needs to pass that access key to another thread, which then can set it on its own thread-local variable. The act of passing a value from one thread to another implies that a memory barrier needs to be passed. However, this is all not so relevant since there is no need to pass the access key back when the other thread is done. But now I think about it a bit more, the locking mechanism runs in a synchronized block. If I remember correctly this should be enough to pass read and write barriers. >> In the current implementation the consumer is also invoked from random threads. If it works now, it should continue to work. > I'm not sure what you're referring to. Can you expand on this? Any invocation of the consumer (e.g. method poll) is not from a thread managed by the consumer. This is what I was assuming you meant with the term 'random thread'. > Hmm, not sure what you mean by "cooperate with blocking code." If you have 10 green threads you're multiplexing on to one CPU thread, and that CPU thread gets blocked because of what one green thread is doing, the other 9 green threads are blocked too, right? I guess it's "just" a performance problem, but it still seems like it could be a serious one. There are several ways to deal with this. All async runtimes I know (Akka, Zio, Cats-effects) support this by letting you mark a task as blocking. The runtime will then either schedule it to another thread-pool, or it will grow the thread-pool to accommodate. In any case 'the other 9 green threads' will simply be scheduled to another real thread. In addition, some of these runtimes detect long running tasks and will reschedule waiting tasks to another thread. This is all a bit off topic though. > I don't see why this has to be "inherently multi-threaded." Why can't we have the other threads report back what messages they've
Re: [VOTE] KIP-944 Support async runtimes in consumer, votes needed!
HI Philip & Erik, Hmm... if we agree that KIP-945 addresses this use case, I think it would be better to just focus on that KIP. Fundamentally it's a better and cleaner model than a complex scheme involving thread-local variables. I really don't want to be debugging complex interactions between Java thread-local variables and green threads. It also generally helps to have some use-cases in mind when writing these things. If we get feedback about what would be useful for async runtimes, that would probably help improve and focus KIP-945. By the way, I can see you have a draft on the wiki for KIP-945 but haven't posted a DISCUSS thread yet, so I assume it's not ready for review yet ;) best, Colin On Tue, Jul 11, 2023, at 12:24, Philip Nee wrote: > Hey Erik - Another thing I want to add to my comment is. We are in-process > of re-writing the KafkaConsumer, and I think your proposal would work in > the new consumer because we are going to separate the user thread and the > background thread. Here is the 1-pager, and we are in process of > converting this in to KIP-945. > > Thanks, > P > > On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 10:33 AM Philip Nee wrote: > >> Hey Erik, >> >> Sorry for holding up this email for a few days since Colin's response >> includes some of my concerns. I'm in favor of this KIP, and I think your >> approach seems safe. Of course, I probably missed something therefore I >> think this KIP needs to cover different use cases to demonstrate it doesn't >> cause any unsafe access. I think this can be demonstrated via diagrams and >> some code in the KIP. >> >> Thanks, >> P >> >> On Sat, Jul 8, 2023 at 12:28 PM Erik van Oosten >> wrote: >> >>> Hello Colin, >>> >>> >> In KIP-944, the callback thread can only delegate to another thread >>> after reading from and writing to a threadlocal variable, providing the >>> barriers right there. >>> >>> > I don't see any documentation that accessing thread local variables >>> provides a total store or load barrier. Do you have such documentation? >>> It seems like if this were the case, we could eliminate volatile >>> variables from most of the code base. >>> >>> Now I was imprecise. The thread-locals are only somewhat involved. In >>> the KIP proposal the callback thread reads an access key from a >>> thread-local variable. It then needs to pass that access key to another >>> thread, which then can set it on its own thread-local variable. The act >>> of passing a value from one thread to another implies that a memory >>> barrier needs to be passed. However, this is all not so relevant since >>> there is no need to pass the access key back when the other thread is >>> done. >>> >>> But now I think about it a bit more, the locking mechanism runs in a >>> synchronized block. If I remember correctly this should be enough to >>> pass read and write barriers. >>> >>> >> In the current implementation the consumer is also invoked from >>> random threads. If it works now, it should continue to work. >>> > I'm not sure what you're referring to. Can you expand on this? >>> >>> Any invocation of the consumer (e.g. method poll) is not from a thread >>> managed by the consumer. This is what I was assuming you meant with the >>> term 'random thread'. >>> >>> > Hmm, not sure what you mean by "cooperate with blocking code." If you >>> have 10 green threads you're multiplexing on to one CPU thread, and that >>> CPU thread gets blocked because of what one green thread is doing, the >>> other 9 green threads are blocked too, right? I guess it's "just" a >>> performance problem, but it still seems like it could be a serious one. >>> >>> There are several ways to deal with this. All async runtimes I know >>> (Akka, Zio, Cats-effects) support this by letting you mark a task as >>> blocking. The runtime will then either schedule it to another >>> thread-pool, or it will grow the thread-pool to accommodate. In any case >>> 'the other 9 green threads' will simply be scheduled to another real >>> thread. In addition, some of these runtimes detect long running tasks >>> and will reschedule waiting tasks to another thread. This is all a bit >>> off topic though. >>> >>> > I don't see why this has to be "inherently multi-threaded." Why can't >>> we have the other threads report back what messages they've processed to >>> the worker thread. Then it will be able to handle these callbacks >>> without involving the other threads. >>> >>> Please consider the context which is that we are running inside the >>> callback of the rebalance listener. The only way to execute something >>> and also have a timeout on it is to run the something on another thread. >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> Erik. >>> >>> >>> Op 08-07-2023 om 19:17 schreef Colin McCabe: >>> > On Sat, Jul 8, 2023, at 02:41, Erik van Oosten wrote: >>> >> Hi Colin, >>> >> >>> >> Thanks for your thoughts and taking the time to reply. >>> >> >>> >> Let me take away your concerns. None of your worries are an issue with >>> >>
Re: [VOTE] KIP-944 Support async runtimes in consumer, votes needed!
Hi Colin, Philip, I have added a section to KIIP-944 to address your concerns around memory consistency over multiple threads. You can read them here: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/KAFKA/KIP-944%3A+Support+async+runtimes+in+consumer#KIP944:Supportasyncruntimesinconsumer-Threadsafety Kind regards, Erik. Op 12-07-2023 om 13:24 schreef Erik van Oosten: Thanks Philip, > I think this can be demonstrated via diagrams and some code in the KIP. There are some diagrams in KIP-944. How can they be improved? I will add some code to address the concerns around memory barriers. > We are in-process of re-writing the KafkaConsumer Nice! I will read the KIP. Hopefully we don't need complex logic in callbacks after the rewrite. Kind regards, Erik. Op 11-07-2023 om 19:33 schreef Philip Nee: Hey Erik, Sorry for holding up this email for a few days since Colin's response includes some of my concerns. I'm in favor of this KIP, and I think your approach seems safe. Of course, I probably missed something therefore I think this KIP needs to cover different use cases to demonstrate it doesn't cause any unsafe access. I think this can be demonstrated via diagrams and some code in the KIP. Thanks, P On Sat, Jul 8, 2023 at 12:28 PM Erik van Oosten wrote: Hello Colin, >> In KIP-944, the callback thread can only delegate to another thread after reading from and writing to a threadlocal variable, providing the barriers right there. > I don't see any documentation that accessing thread local variables provides a total store or load barrier. Do you have such documentation? It seems like if this were the case, we could eliminate volatile variables from most of the code base. Now I was imprecise. The thread-locals are only somewhat involved. In the KIP proposal the callback thread reads an access key from a thread-local variable. It then needs to pass that access key to another thread, which then can set it on its own thread-local variable. The act of passing a value from one thread to another implies that a memory barrier needs to be passed. However, this is all not so relevant since there is no need to pass the access key back when the other thread is done. But now I think about it a bit more, the locking mechanism runs in a synchronized block. If I remember correctly this should be enough to pass read and write barriers. >> In the current implementation the consumer is also invoked from random threads. If it works now, it should continue to work. > I'm not sure what you're referring to. Can you expand on this? Any invocation of the consumer (e.g. method poll) is not from a thread managed by the consumer. This is what I was assuming you meant with the term 'random thread'. > Hmm, not sure what you mean by "cooperate with blocking code." If you have 10 green threads you're multiplexing on to one CPU thread, and that CPU thread gets blocked because of what one green thread is doing, the other 9 green threads are blocked too, right? I guess it's "just" a performance problem, but it still seems like it could be a serious one. There are several ways to deal with this. All async runtimes I know (Akka, Zio, Cats-effects) support this by letting you mark a task as blocking. The runtime will then either schedule it to another thread-pool, or it will grow the thread-pool to accommodate. In any case 'the other 9 green threads' will simply be scheduled to another real thread. In addition, some of these runtimes detect long running tasks and will reschedule waiting tasks to another thread. This is all a bit off topic though. > I don't see why this has to be "inherently multi-threaded." Why can't we have the other threads report back what messages they've processed to the worker thread. Then it will be able to handle these callbacks without involving the other threads. Please consider the context which is that we are running inside the callback of the rebalance listener. The only way to execute something and also have a timeout on it is to run the something on another thread. Kind regards, Erik. Op 08-07-2023 om 19:17 schreef Colin McCabe: On Sat, Jul 8, 2023, at 02:41, Erik van Oosten wrote: Hi Colin, Thanks for your thoughts and taking the time to reply. Let me take away your concerns. None of your worries are an issue with the algorithm described in KIP-944. Here it goes: > It's not clear ot me that it's safe to access the Kafka consumer or producer concurrently from different threads. Concurrent access is /not/ a design goal of KIP-944. In fact, it goes through great lengths to make sure that this cannot happen. *The only design goal is to allow callbacks to call the consumer from another thread.* To make sure there are no more misunderstandings about this, I have added this goal to the KIP. Hi Erik, Sorry, I spoke imprecisely. My concern is not concurrent access, but multithreaded access in general. Basically cache line
Re: [VOTE] KIP-944 Support async runtimes in consumer, votes needed!
Thanks Philip, > I think this can be demonstrated via diagrams and some code in the KIP. There are some diagrams in KIP-944. How can they be improved? I will add some code to address the concerns around memory barriers. > We are in-process of re-writing the KafkaConsumer Nice! I will read the KIP. Hopefully we don't need complex logic in callbacks after the rewrite. Kind regards, Erik. Op 11-07-2023 om 19:33 schreef Philip Nee: Hey Erik, Sorry for holding up this email for a few days since Colin's response includes some of my concerns. I'm in favor of this KIP, and I think your approach seems safe. Of course, I probably missed something therefore I think this KIP needs to cover different use cases to demonstrate it doesn't cause any unsafe access. I think this can be demonstrated via diagrams and some code in the KIP. Thanks, P On Sat, Jul 8, 2023 at 12:28 PM Erik van Oosten wrote: Hello Colin, >> In KIP-944, the callback thread can only delegate to another thread after reading from and writing to a threadlocal variable, providing the barriers right there. > I don't see any documentation that accessing thread local variables provides a total store or load barrier. Do you have such documentation? It seems like if this were the case, we could eliminate volatile variables from most of the code base. Now I was imprecise. The thread-locals are only somewhat involved. In the KIP proposal the callback thread reads an access key from a thread-local variable. It then needs to pass that access key to another thread, which then can set it on its own thread-local variable. The act of passing a value from one thread to another implies that a memory barrier needs to be passed. However, this is all not so relevant since there is no need to pass the access key back when the other thread is done. But now I think about it a bit more, the locking mechanism runs in a synchronized block. If I remember correctly this should be enough to pass read and write barriers. >> In the current implementation the consumer is also invoked from random threads. If it works now, it should continue to work. > I'm not sure what you're referring to. Can you expand on this? Any invocation of the consumer (e.g. method poll) is not from a thread managed by the consumer. This is what I was assuming you meant with the term 'random thread'. > Hmm, not sure what you mean by "cooperate with blocking code." If you have 10 green threads you're multiplexing on to one CPU thread, and that CPU thread gets blocked because of what one green thread is doing, the other 9 green threads are blocked too, right? I guess it's "just" a performance problem, but it still seems like it could be a serious one. There are several ways to deal with this. All async runtimes I know (Akka, Zio, Cats-effects) support this by letting you mark a task as blocking. The runtime will then either schedule it to another thread-pool, or it will grow the thread-pool to accommodate. In any case 'the other 9 green threads' will simply be scheduled to another real thread. In addition, some of these runtimes detect long running tasks and will reschedule waiting tasks to another thread. This is all a bit off topic though. > I don't see why this has to be "inherently multi-threaded." Why can't we have the other threads report back what messages they've processed to the worker thread. Then it will be able to handle these callbacks without involving the other threads. Please consider the context which is that we are running inside the callback of the rebalance listener. The only way to execute something and also have a timeout on it is to run the something on another thread. Kind regards, Erik. Op 08-07-2023 om 19:17 schreef Colin McCabe: On Sat, Jul 8, 2023, at 02:41, Erik van Oosten wrote: Hi Colin, Thanks for your thoughts and taking the time to reply. Let me take away your concerns. None of your worries are an issue with the algorithm described in KIP-944. Here it goes: > It's not clear ot me that it's safe to access the Kafka consumer or producer concurrently from different threads. Concurrent access is /not/ a design goal of KIP-944. In fact, it goes through great lengths to make sure that this cannot happen. *The only design goal is to allow callbacks to call the consumer from another thread.* To make sure there are no more misunderstandings about this, I have added this goal to the KIP. Hi Erik, Sorry, I spoke imprecisely. My concern is not concurrent access, but multithreaded access in general. Basically cache line visibility issues. > This is true even if the accesses happen at different times, because modern CPUs require memory barriers to guarantee inter-thread visibilty of loads and stores. In KIP-944, the callback thread can only delegate to another thread after reading from and writing to a threadlocal variable, providing the barriers right there. I don't see any documentation that accessing thread
Re: [VOTE] KIP-944 Support async runtimes in consumer, votes needed!
Hey Erik - Another thing I want to add to my comment is. We are in-process of re-writing the KafkaConsumer, and I think your proposal would work in the new consumer because we are going to separate the user thread and the background thread. Here is the 1-pager, and we are in process of converting this in to KIP-945. Thanks, P On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 10:33 AM Philip Nee wrote: > Hey Erik, > > Sorry for holding up this email for a few days since Colin's response > includes some of my concerns. I'm in favor of this KIP, and I think your > approach seems safe. Of course, I probably missed something therefore I > think this KIP needs to cover different use cases to demonstrate it doesn't > cause any unsafe access. I think this can be demonstrated via diagrams and > some code in the KIP. > > Thanks, > P > > On Sat, Jul 8, 2023 at 12:28 PM Erik van Oosten > wrote: > >> Hello Colin, >> >> >> In KIP-944, the callback thread can only delegate to another thread >> after reading from and writing to a threadlocal variable, providing the >> barriers right there. >> >> > I don't see any documentation that accessing thread local variables >> provides a total store or load barrier. Do you have such documentation? >> It seems like if this were the case, we could eliminate volatile >> variables from most of the code base. >> >> Now I was imprecise. The thread-locals are only somewhat involved. In >> the KIP proposal the callback thread reads an access key from a >> thread-local variable. It then needs to pass that access key to another >> thread, which then can set it on its own thread-local variable. The act >> of passing a value from one thread to another implies that a memory >> barrier needs to be passed. However, this is all not so relevant since >> there is no need to pass the access key back when the other thread is >> done. >> >> But now I think about it a bit more, the locking mechanism runs in a >> synchronized block. If I remember correctly this should be enough to >> pass read and write barriers. >> >> >> In the current implementation the consumer is also invoked from >> random threads. If it works now, it should continue to work. >> > I'm not sure what you're referring to. Can you expand on this? >> >> Any invocation of the consumer (e.g. method poll) is not from a thread >> managed by the consumer. This is what I was assuming you meant with the >> term 'random thread'. >> >> > Hmm, not sure what you mean by "cooperate with blocking code." If you >> have 10 green threads you're multiplexing on to one CPU thread, and that >> CPU thread gets blocked because of what one green thread is doing, the >> other 9 green threads are blocked too, right? I guess it's "just" a >> performance problem, but it still seems like it could be a serious one. >> >> There are several ways to deal with this. All async runtimes I know >> (Akka, Zio, Cats-effects) support this by letting you mark a task as >> blocking. The runtime will then either schedule it to another >> thread-pool, or it will grow the thread-pool to accommodate. In any case >> 'the other 9 green threads' will simply be scheduled to another real >> thread. In addition, some of these runtimes detect long running tasks >> and will reschedule waiting tasks to another thread. This is all a bit >> off topic though. >> >> > I don't see why this has to be "inherently multi-threaded." Why can't >> we have the other threads report back what messages they've processed to >> the worker thread. Then it will be able to handle these callbacks >> without involving the other threads. >> >> Please consider the context which is that we are running inside the >> callback of the rebalance listener. The only way to execute something >> and also have a timeout on it is to run the something on another thread. >> >> Kind regards, >> Erik. >> >> >> Op 08-07-2023 om 19:17 schreef Colin McCabe: >> > On Sat, Jul 8, 2023, at 02:41, Erik van Oosten wrote: >> >> Hi Colin, >> >> >> >> Thanks for your thoughts and taking the time to reply. >> >> >> >> Let me take away your concerns. None of your worries are an issue with >> >> the algorithm described in KIP-944. Here it goes: >> >> >> >> > It's not clear ot me that it's safe to access the Kafka consumer or >> >>> producer concurrently from different threads. >> >> Concurrent access is /not/ a design goal of KIP-944. In fact, it goes >> >> through great lengths to make sure that this cannot happen. >> >> >> >> *The only design goal is to allow callbacks to call the consumer from >> >> another thread.* >> >> >> >> To make sure there are no more misunderstandings about this, I have >> >> added this goal to the KIP. >> >> >> > Hi Erik, >> > >> > Sorry, I spoke imprecisely. My concern is not concurrent access, but >> multithreaded access in general. Basically cache line visibility issues. >> > >> >> > This is true even if the accesses happen at different times, >> because >> >>> modern CPUs require memory barriers to guarantee
Re: [VOTE] KIP-944 Support async runtimes in consumer, votes needed!
Hey Erik, Sorry for holding up this email for a few days since Colin's response includes some of my concerns. I'm in favor of this KIP, and I think your approach seems safe. Of course, I probably missed something therefore I think this KIP needs to cover different use cases to demonstrate it doesn't cause any unsafe access. I think this can be demonstrated via diagrams and some code in the KIP. Thanks, P On Sat, Jul 8, 2023 at 12:28 PM Erik van Oosten wrote: > Hello Colin, > > >> In KIP-944, the callback thread can only delegate to another thread > after reading from and writing to a threadlocal variable, providing the > barriers right there. > > > I don't see any documentation that accessing thread local variables > provides a total store or load barrier. Do you have such documentation? > It seems like if this were the case, we could eliminate volatile > variables from most of the code base. > > Now I was imprecise. The thread-locals are only somewhat involved. In > the KIP proposal the callback thread reads an access key from a > thread-local variable. It then needs to pass that access key to another > thread, which then can set it on its own thread-local variable. The act > of passing a value from one thread to another implies that a memory > barrier needs to be passed. However, this is all not so relevant since > there is no need to pass the access key back when the other thread is done. > > But now I think about it a bit more, the locking mechanism runs in a > synchronized block. If I remember correctly this should be enough to > pass read and write barriers. > > >> In the current implementation the consumer is also invoked from > random threads. If it works now, it should continue to work. > > I'm not sure what you're referring to. Can you expand on this? > > Any invocation of the consumer (e.g. method poll) is not from a thread > managed by the consumer. This is what I was assuming you meant with the > term 'random thread'. > > > Hmm, not sure what you mean by "cooperate with blocking code." If you > have 10 green threads you're multiplexing on to one CPU thread, and that > CPU thread gets blocked because of what one green thread is doing, the > other 9 green threads are blocked too, right? I guess it's "just" a > performance problem, but it still seems like it could be a serious one. > > There are several ways to deal with this. All async runtimes I know > (Akka, Zio, Cats-effects) support this by letting you mark a task as > blocking. The runtime will then either schedule it to another > thread-pool, or it will grow the thread-pool to accommodate. In any case > 'the other 9 green threads' will simply be scheduled to another real > thread. In addition, some of these runtimes detect long running tasks > and will reschedule waiting tasks to another thread. This is all a bit > off topic though. > > > I don't see why this has to be "inherently multi-threaded." Why can't > we have the other threads report back what messages they've processed to > the worker thread. Then it will be able to handle these callbacks > without involving the other threads. > > Please consider the context which is that we are running inside the > callback of the rebalance listener. The only way to execute something > and also have a timeout on it is to run the something on another thread. > > Kind regards, > Erik. > > > Op 08-07-2023 om 19:17 schreef Colin McCabe: > > On Sat, Jul 8, 2023, at 02:41, Erik van Oosten wrote: > >> Hi Colin, > >> > >> Thanks for your thoughts and taking the time to reply. > >> > >> Let me take away your concerns. None of your worries are an issue with > >> the algorithm described in KIP-944. Here it goes: > >> > >> > It's not clear ot me that it's safe to access the Kafka consumer or > >>> producer concurrently from different threads. > >> Concurrent access is /not/ a design goal of KIP-944. In fact, it goes > >> through great lengths to make sure that this cannot happen. > >> > >> *The only design goal is to allow callbacks to call the consumer from > >> another thread.* > >> > >> To make sure there are no more misunderstandings about this, I have > >> added this goal to the KIP. > >> > > Hi Erik, > > > > Sorry, I spoke imprecisely. My concern is not concurrent access, but > multithreaded access in general. Basically cache line visibility issues. > > > >> > This is true even if the accesses happen at different times, because > >>> modern CPUs require memory barriers to guarantee inter-thread visibilty > >>> of loads and stores. > >> In KIP-944, the callback thread can only delegate to another thread > >> after reading from and writing to a threadlocal variable, providing the > >> barriers right there. > >> > > I don't see any documentation that accessing thread local variables > provides a total store or load barrier. Do you have such documentation? It > seems like if this were the case, we could eliminate volatile variables > from most of the code base. > > > >> > I know
Re: [VOTE] KIP-944 Support async runtimes in consumer, votes needed!
Hello Colin, >> In KIP-944, the callback thread can only delegate to another thread after reading from and writing to a threadlocal variable, providing the barriers right there. > I don't see any documentation that accessing thread local variables provides a total store or load barrier. Do you have such documentation? It seems like if this were the case, we could eliminate volatile variables from most of the code base. Now I was imprecise. The thread-locals are only somewhat involved. In the KIP proposal the callback thread reads an access key from a thread-local variable. It then needs to pass that access key to another thread, which then can set it on its own thread-local variable. The act of passing a value from one thread to another implies that a memory barrier needs to be passed. However, this is all not so relevant since there is no need to pass the access key back when the other thread is done. But now I think about it a bit more, the locking mechanism runs in a synchronized block. If I remember correctly this should be enough to pass read and write barriers. >> In the current implementation the consumer is also invoked from random threads. If it works now, it should continue to work. > I'm not sure what you're referring to. Can you expand on this? Any invocation of the consumer (e.g. method poll) is not from a thread managed by the consumer. This is what I was assuming you meant with the term 'random thread'. > Hmm, not sure what you mean by "cooperate with blocking code." If you have 10 green threads you're multiplexing on to one CPU thread, and that CPU thread gets blocked because of what one green thread is doing, the other 9 green threads are blocked too, right? I guess it's "just" a performance problem, but it still seems like it could be a serious one. There are several ways to deal with this. All async runtimes I know (Akka, Zio, Cats-effects) support this by letting you mark a task as blocking. The runtime will then either schedule it to another thread-pool, or it will grow the thread-pool to accommodate. In any case 'the other 9 green threads' will simply be scheduled to another real thread. In addition, some of these runtimes detect long running tasks and will reschedule waiting tasks to another thread. This is all a bit off topic though. > I don't see why this has to be "inherently multi-threaded." Why can't we have the other threads report back what messages they've processed to the worker thread. Then it will be able to handle these callbacks without involving the other threads. Please consider the context which is that we are running inside the callback of the rebalance listener. The only way to execute something and also have a timeout on it is to run the something on another thread. Kind regards, Erik. Op 08-07-2023 om 19:17 schreef Colin McCabe: On Sat, Jul 8, 2023, at 02:41, Erik van Oosten wrote: Hi Colin, Thanks for your thoughts and taking the time to reply. Let me take away your concerns. None of your worries are an issue with the algorithm described in KIP-944. Here it goes: > It's not clear ot me that it's safe to access the Kafka consumer or producer concurrently from different threads. Concurrent access is /not/ a design goal of KIP-944. In fact, it goes through great lengths to make sure that this cannot happen. *The only design goal is to allow callbacks to call the consumer from another thread.* To make sure there are no more misunderstandings about this, I have added this goal to the KIP. Hi Erik, Sorry, I spoke imprecisely. My concern is not concurrent access, but multithreaded access in general. Basically cache line visibility issues. > This is true even if the accesses happen at different times, because modern CPUs require memory barriers to guarantee inter-thread visibilty of loads and stores. In KIP-944, the callback thread can only delegate to another thread after reading from and writing to a threadlocal variable, providing the barriers right there. I don't see any documentation that accessing thread local variables provides a total store or load barrier. Do you have such documentation? It seems like if this were the case, we could eliminate volatile variables from most of the code base. > I know that there are at least a few locks in the consumer code now, due to our need to send heartbeats from a worker thread. I don't think those would be sufficient to protect a client that is making calls from random threads. In the current implementation the consumer is also invoked from random threads. If it works now, it should continue to work. I'm not sure what you're referring to. Can you expand on this? > There has been some discussion of moving to a more traditional model where people make calls to the client and the clients passes the given data to a single background worker thread. This would avoid a lot lof the footguns of the current model and probably better
Re: [VOTE] KIP-944 Support async runtimes in consumer, votes needed!
On Sat, Jul 8, 2023, at 02:41, Erik van Oosten wrote: > Hi Colin, > > Thanks for your thoughts and taking the time to reply. > > Let me take away your concerns. None of your worries are an issue with > the algorithm described in KIP-944. Here it goes: > > > It's not clear ot me that it's safe to access the Kafka consumer or > > producer concurrently from different threads. > > Concurrent access is /not/ a design goal of KIP-944. In fact, it goes > through great lengths to make sure that this cannot happen. > > *The only design goal is to allow callbacks to call the consumer from > another thread.* > > To make sure there are no more misunderstandings about this, I have > added this goal to the KIP. > Hi Erik, Sorry, I spoke imprecisely. My concern is not concurrent access, but multithreaded access in general. Basically cache line visibility issues. > > This is true even if the accesses happen at different times, because > > modern CPUs require memory barriers to guarantee inter-thread visibilty > > of loads and stores. > > In KIP-944, the callback thread can only delegate to another thread > after reading from and writing to a threadlocal variable, providing the > barriers right there. > I don't see any documentation that accessing thread local variables provides a total store or load barrier. Do you have such documentation? It seems like if this were the case, we could eliminate volatile variables from most of the code base. > > I know that there are at least a few locks in the consumer code now, > > due to our need to send heartbeats from a worker thread. I don't think > > those would be sufficient to protect a client that is making calls from > > random threads. > > In the current implementation the consumer is also invoked from random > threads. If it works now, it should continue to work. > I'm not sure what you're referring to. Can you expand on this? > > There has been some discussion of moving to a more traditional model > > where people make calls to the client and the clients passes the given > > data to a single background worker thread. This would avoid a lot lof > > the footguns of the current model and probably better reflect how people > > actually use the client. > > That is awesome. However, I'd rather not wait for that. > > > Another issue is that neither the producer nor the consumer is fully > > nonblocking. There are some corner cases where we do in fact block. From > > memory, the producer blocks in some "buffer full" cases, and the > > consumer blocks sometimes when fetching metadata. > > I am aware of that. This is not an issue; all async runtimes can > cooperate with blocking code. > Hmm, not sure what you mean by "cooperate with blocking code." If you have 10 green threads you're multiplexing on to one CPU thread, and that CPU thread gets blocked because of what one green thread is doing, the other 9 green threads are blocked too, right? I guess it's "just" a performance problem, but it still seems like it could be a serious one. > > I suspect it would be more appropriate for Kotlin coroutines, Zio > > coroutines and so on to adopt this "pass messages to and from a > > background worker thread" model than to try to re-engineer the Kafka > > client ot work from random threads. > > In both zio-kafka and fs2-kafka this is already the approach we are taking. > > Unfortunately, the Kafka consumer forces us to perform some work in > callbacks: > > * commit completed callback: register that the callback is complete, > * partition revoked callback: in this callback we need to submit > commits from everything consumed and processed so far, using > timeouts if processing takes to long. In an async runtime, this is > an inherently multi-threaded process. Especially, we cannot do > timeouts without involving multiple threads. > I don't see why this has to be "inherently multi-threaded." Why can't we have the other threads report back what messages they've processed to the worker thread. Then it will be able to handle these callbacks without involving the other threads. regards, Colin > I have extended the KIP's motivation to explain the major use case. > > Please read KIP-944 again. Even though the description is extensive > (this callback from callback stuff is tricky), you will find that my > goals are modest. > > Also the implementation is just a few lines. With understanding of the > idea it should not be a lot of work to follow it. > > Kind regards, > Erik. > > > Op 07-07-2023 om 19:57 schreef Colin McCabe: >> Hi Erik, >> >> It's not clear ot me that it's safe to access the Kafka consumer or producer >> concurrently from different threads. There are data structures that aren't >> protected by locks, so I wouldn't necessarily expect accessing and mutating >> them in a concurrent way to work. This is true even if the accesses happen >> at different times, because modern CPUs require memory barriers to
Re: [VOTE] KIP-944 Support async runtimes in consumer, votes needed!
Hi Colin, Thanks for your thoughts and taking the time to reply. Let me take away your concerns. None of your worries are an issue with the algorithm described in KIP-944. Here it goes: > It's not clear ot me that it's safe to access the Kafka consumer or producer concurrently from different threads. Concurrent access is /not/ a design goal of KIP-944. In fact, it goes through great lengths to make sure that this cannot happen. *The only design goal is to allow callbacks to call the consumer from another thread.* To make sure there are no more misunderstandings about this, I have added this goal to the KIP. > This is true even if the accesses happen at different times, because modern CPUs require memory barriers to guarantee inter-thread visibilty of loads and stores. In KIP-944, the callback thread can only delegate to another thread after reading from and writing to a threadlocal variable, providing the barriers right there. > I know that there are at least a few locks in the consumer code now, due to our need to send heartbeats from a worker thread. I don't think those would be sufficient to protect a client that is making calls from random threads. In the current implementation the consumer is also invoked from random threads. If it works now, it should continue to work. > There has been some discussion of moving to a more traditional model where people make calls to the client and the clients passes the given data to a single background worker thread. This would avoid a lot lof the footguns of the current model and probably better reflect how people actually use the client. That is awesome. However, I'd rather not wait for that. > Another issue is that neither the producer nor the consumer is fully nonblocking. There are some corner cases where we do in fact block. From memory, the producer blocks in some "buffer full" cases, and the consumer blocks sometimes when fetching metadata. I am aware of that. This is not an issue; all async runtimes can cooperate with blocking code. > I suspect it would be more appropriate for Kotlin coroutines, Zio coroutines and so on to adopt this "pass messages to and from a background worker thread" model than to try to re-engineer the Kafka client ot work from random threads. In both zio-kafka and fs2-kafka this is already the approach we are taking. Unfortunately, the Kafka consumer forces us to perform some work in callbacks: * commit completed callback: register that the callback is complete, * partition revoked callback: in this callback we need to submit commits from everything consumed and processed so far, using timeouts if processing takes to long. In an async runtime, this is an inherently multi-threaded process. Especially, we cannot do timeouts without involving multiple threads. I have extended the KIP's motivation to explain the major use case. Please read KIP-944 again. Even though the description is extensive (this callback from callback stuff is tricky), you will find that my goals are modest. Also the implementation is just a few lines. With understanding of the idea it should not be a lot of work to follow it. Kind regards, Erik. Op 07-07-2023 om 19:57 schreef Colin McCabe: Hi Erik, It's not clear ot me that it's safe to access the Kafka consumer or producer concurrently from different threads. There are data structures that aren't protected by locks, so I wouldn't necessarily expect accessing and mutating them in a concurrent way to work. This is true even if the accesses happen at different times, because modern CPUs require memory barriers to guarantee inter-thread visibilty of loads and stores. I am writing this is without doing a detailed dive into the code (I haven't been into the consumer / producer code in a bit.) Someone who has worked more on the consumer recently might be able to give specific examples of things that wouldn't work. I know that there are at least a few locks in the consumer code now, due to our need to send heartbeats from a worker thread. I don't think those would be sufficient to protect a client that is making calls from random threads. There has been some discussion of moving to a more traditional model where people make calls to the client and the clients passes the given data to a single background worker thread. This would avoid a lot lof the footguns of the current model and probably better reflect how people actually use the client. Another issue is that neither the producer nor the consumer is fully nonblocking. There are some corner cases where we do in fact block. From memory, the producer blocks in some "buffer full" cases, and the consumer blocks sometimes when fetching metadata. I suspect it would be more appropriate for Kotlin coroutines, Zio coroutines and so on to adopt this "pass messages to and from a background worker thread" model than to try to re-engineer the Kafka client ot work from
Re: [VOTE] KIP-944 Support async runtimes in consumer, votes needed!
Hi Erik, It's not clear ot me that it's safe to access the Kafka consumer or producer concurrently from different threads. There are data structures that aren't protected by locks, so I wouldn't necessarily expect accessing and mutating them in a concurrent way to work. This is true even if the accesses happen at different times, because modern CPUs require memory barriers to guarantee inter-thread visibilty of loads and stores. I am writing this is without doing a detailed dive into the code (I haven't been into the consumer / producer code in a bit.) Someone who has worked more on the consumer recently might be able to give specific examples of things that wouldn't work. I know that there are at least a few locks in the consumer code now, due to our need to send heartbeats from a worker thread. I don't think those would be sufficient to protect a client that is making calls from random threads. There has been some discussion of moving to a more traditional model where people make calls to the client and the clients passes the given data to a single background worker thread. This would avoid a lot lof the footguns of the current model and probably better reflect how people actually use the client. Another issue is that neither the producer nor the consumer is fully nonblocking. There are some corner cases where we do in fact block. From memory, the producer blocks in some "buffer full" cases, and the consumer blocks sometimes when fetching metadata. I suspect it would be more appropriate for Kotlin coroutines, Zio coroutines and so on to adopt this "pass messages to and from a background worker thread" model than to try to re-engineer the Kafka client ot work from random threads. There is actually somed good advice about how to handle multiple threads in the KafkaConsumer.java header file itself. Check the sections "One Consumer Per Thread" and "Decouple Consumption and Processing." What I'm recommending here is essentially the latter. I do understand that it's frustrating to not get a quick response. However, overall I think this one needs a lot more discussion before getting anywhere near a vote. I will leave a -1 just as a procedural step. Maybe some of the people working in the client area can also chime in. best, Colin On Thu, Jul 6, 2023, at 12:02, Erik van Oosten wrote: > Dear PMCs, > > So far there have been 0 responses to KIP-944. I understand this may not > be something that keeps you busy, but this KIP is important to people > that use async runtimes like Zio, Cats and Kotlin. > > Is there anything you need to come to a decision? > > Kind regards, > Erik. > > > Op 05-07-2023 om 11:38 schreef Erik van Oosten: >> Hello all, >> >> I'd like to call a vote on KIP-944 Support async runtimes in consumer. >> It has has been 'under discussion' for 7 days now. 'Under discussion' >> between quotes, because there were 0 comments so far. I hope the KIP >> is clear! >> >> KIP description: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/x/chw0Dw >> >> Kind regards, >> Erik. >> > -- > Erik van Oosten > e.vanoos...@grons.nl > https://day-to-day-stuff.blogspot.com
Re: [VOTE] KIP-944 Support async runtimes in consumer, votes needed!
Dear PMCs, So far there have been 0 responses to KIP-944. I understand this may not be something that keeps you busy, but this KIP is important to people that use async runtimes like Zio, Cats and Kotlin. Is there anything you need to come to a decision? Kind regards, Erik. Op 05-07-2023 om 11:38 schreef Erik van Oosten: Hello all, I'd like to call a vote on KIP-944 Support async runtimes in consumer. It has has been 'under discussion' for 7 days now. 'Under discussion' between quotes, because there were 0 comments so far. I hope the KIP is clear! KIP description: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/x/chw0Dw Kind regards, Erik. -- Erik van Oosten e.vanoos...@grons.nl https://day-to-day-stuff.blogspot.com
