Re: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Olivia vs. RTTY vs. PSK spectrum efficiency
I think the key to making it really fly would be to hold some short sprint contests using PSK63 only. That way you could get a lot of guys to try it without a big commitment of time and effort. As it gains acceptance thru that and word of mouth, it could be added as an optional mode in more mainstream contests. Hold some sprints and talk it up on the email reflectors and it stands a chance... Ty K3MM Jul 20, 2010 07:10:30 PM, digitalradio@yahoogroups.com wrote: PSK63 was developed as an intended RTTY contesting mode replacement, not for conversation. PSK31 is too slow for contesting and has a preamble and a postamble that slows turnovers down, so the idea was that 100 wpm PSK63 would, overall, including faster turnovers than PSK31, be as fast as RTTY for contest exchanges, and contesters would benefit from less power needed, panoramic reception, less crowding, and faster synchronization. In the contesting world, a rapid exchange and turnover is more important than a faster typing speed. Peter Martinez designed PSK31 for ragchewing and so selected 50 wpm as fast enough for conversation for most typists. Even though Don, AA5AU, a big-time winner of RTTY contests, said he was just blown away about the possibility of PSK63 for contesting when I showed it to him, I was unable to get it implemented into WriteLog, as the author took a chicken and egg approach in which he said he would not add PSK63 to WriteLog until it became popular for contesting! Since WriteLog is so popular with contest winners, and did not support PSK63, the mode never took off, except in Europe. What might help would be for someone to convince the contest managers to do something like adding a multiplier for PSK63 contacts, or perhaps some other acceptable incentive, to make it worthwhile to use PSK63 for contests. Everybody would win, because so many PSK63 signals can fit into the space of one RTTY signal, and with panoramic displays, you get a list of callsigns to select from all presented to you, and can even highlight zones or callsign areas you need for multipliers, etc.. 73, Skip KH6TY On 7/20/2010 7:03 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote: - Original Message From: g4ilo jul...@g4ilo.com To: mailto:digitalradio%40yahoogroups.com; target=_blank class= parsedEmaildigitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, July 20, 2010 4:29:15 AM Subject: [digitalradio] Re: Olivia vs. RTTY vs. PSK spectrum efficiency Just because a mode is better doesn't mean that people will want to use it, though, and I guess both RTTY and PSK31 are so established now that you'll never persuade people to give them up. Julian, G4ILO While rtty can be replaced by other modes, they will not run on the 50 plus old mechanical printers and the demodulators that go with them. Just as some like to run AM on the ham bands. Not that good of a use of bandwidth, but just something to play with that many enjoy. I doubt that many hams that run the digital modes can really type very fast and depend on the micros in the programs. For the ones doing it in real time, psk31 probably has enough speed.
[digitalradio] Re: Olivia vs. RTTY vs. PSK spectrum efficiency
--- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, k...@... wrote: Quite frankly, RTTY could easily be replaced with PSK63 as the prime digital contest mode. However, many PSK operators are so clueless and often downright rude when it comes to contests that its an extremely uphill battle. We could fit a lot more PSK63 signals on the band than RTTY... It would be interesting to see what happened if a semi-major RTTY contest was moved to PSK63 only. Agreed, though the IMD might be a problem, especially as many RTTY contesters use class C amps. Of course, you could also argue that they wouldn't need to use as much power... As a not completely unrelated aside, a few of us have been helping to test G4HYG's APRS Messenger software which at the moment is an experiment to find an alternative publicly documented mode to FSK300 packet that gives better performance on the HF bands. We had been using PSK63 but very recently have been trying the GMSK modes (63, 125 and 250) which are implemented in the MMVARI free software. I don't know (and don't at the moment have time to find out) what exactly the technical differences are between PSK and GMSK but the performance seems to be even better, and apparently it doesn't have the amplitude variations that cause IMD products when using PSK. Just because a mode is better doesn't mean that people will want to use it, though, and I guess both RTTY and PSK31 are so established now that you'll never persuade people to give them up. Julian, G4ILO
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Olivia vs. RTTY vs. PSK spectrum efficiency
The IMD shouldnt be a significant problem unless something is overdriven. However, you see that with PSK31 and to a lesser extent RTTY fairly often on the bands, although most of what i see is 60 cycle hum and audio harmonics related to that, rather than just pure overdrive. AFSK, etc., is the way to go if you can keep it clean (vs FSK). PSK31 is too slow for contesting, so the first shift required is to PSK63. 73, Ty K3MM Jul 20, 2010 04:00:06 AM, digitalradio@yahoogroups.com wrote: --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, k...@... wrote: Quite frankly, RTTY could easily be replaced with PSK63 as the prime digital contest mode. However, many PSK operators are so clueless and often downright rude when it comes to contests that its an extremely uphill battle. We could fit a lot more PSK63 signals on the band than RTTY... It would be interesting to see what happened if a semi-major RTTY contest was moved to PSK63 only. Agreed, though the IMD might be a problem, especially as many RTTY contesters use class C amps. Of course, you could also argue that they wouldn't need to use as much power... As a not completely unrelated aside, a few of us have been helping to test G4HYG's APRS Messenger software which at the moment is an experiment to find an alternative publicly documented mode to FSK300 packet that gives better performance on the HF bands. We had been using PSK63 but very recently have been trying the GMSK modes (63, 125 and 250) which are implemented in the MMVARI free software. I don't know (and don't at the moment have time to find out) what exactly the technical differences are between PSK and GMSK but the performance seems to be even better, and apparently it doesn't have the amplitude variations that cause IMD products when using PSK. Just because a mode is better doesn't mean that people will want to use it, though, and I guess both RTTY and PSK31 are so established now that you'll never persuade people to give them up. Julian, G4ILO
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Olivia vs. RTTY vs. PSK spectrum efficiency
- Original Message From: g4ilo jul...@g4ilo.com To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, July 20, 2010 4:29:15 AM Subject: [digitalradio] Re: Olivia vs. RTTY vs. PSK spectrum efficiency Just because a mode is better doesn't mean that people will want to use it, though, and I guess both RTTY and PSK31 are so established now that you'll never persuade people to give them up. Julian, G4ILO While rtty can be replaced by other modes, they will not run on the 50 plus old mechanical printers and the demodulators that go with them. Just as some like to run AM on the ham bands. Not that good of a use of bandwidth, but just something to play with that many enjoy. I doubt that many hams that run the digital modes can really type very fast and depend on the micros in the programs. For the ones doing it in real time, psk31 probably has enough speed.
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Olivia vs. RTTY vs. PSK spectrum efficiency
PSK63 was developed as an intended RTTY contesting mode replacement, not for conversation. PSK31 is too slow for contesting and has a preamble and a postamble that slows turnovers down, so the idea was that 100 wpm PSK63 would, overall, including faster turnovers than PSK31, be as fast as RTTY for contest exchanges, and contesters would benefit from less power needed, panoramic reception, less crowding, and faster synchronization. In the contesting world, a rapid exchange and turnover is more important than a faster typing speed. Peter Martinez designed PSK31 for ragchewing and so selected 50 wpm as fast enough for conversation for most typists. Even though Don, AA5AU, a big-time winner of RTTY contests, said he was just blown away about the possibility of PSK63 for contesting when I showed it to him, I was unable to get it implemented into WriteLog, as the author took a chicken and egg approach in which he said he would not add PSK63 to WriteLog until it became popular for contesting! Since WriteLog is so popular with contest winners, and did not support PSK63, the mode never took off, except in Europe. What might help would be for someone to convince the contest managers to do something like adding a multiplier for PSK63 contacts, or perhaps some other acceptable incentive, to make it worthwhile to use PSK63 for contests. Everybody would win, because so many PSK63 signals can fit into the space of one RTTY signal, and with panoramic displays, you get a list of callsigns to select from all presented to you, and can even highlight zones or callsign areas you need for multipliers, etc.. 73, Skip KH6TY On 7/20/2010 7:03 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote: - Original Message From: g4ilo jul...@g4ilo.com mailto:julian%40g4ilo.com To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com mailto:digitalradio%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, July 20, 2010 4:29:15 AM Subject: [digitalradio] Re: Olivia vs. RTTY vs. PSK spectrum efficiency Just because a mode is better doesn't mean that people will want to use it, though, and I guess both RTTY and PSK31 are so established now that you'll never persuade people to give them up. Julian, G4ILO While rtty can be replaced by other modes, they will not run on the 50 plus old mechanical printers and the demodulators that go with them. Just as some like to run AM on the ham bands. Not that good of a use of bandwidth, but just something to play with that many enjoy.I doubt that many hams that run the digital modes can really type very fast and depend on the micros in the programs. For the ones doing it in real time, psk31 probably has enough speed.
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Olivia vs. RTTY vs. PSK spectrum efficiency
I completely understand the lure of the old mechanical teleprinters. But I have to say I was surprised at my reaction to the addition of RTTY to the firmware in my NUE-PSK modem. I typically use the NUE-PSK battery powered plugged into my 817 while doing QRP in the field. I don't need to lug along a laptop to do PSK31. Apparently it was easy for them to add RTTY support, and by golly, I found myself doing the occasionally RTTY QSO using this little device. And it was fun. I would not have guessed a modern little device like the NUE-PSK would ever support RTTY, and I would not have guessed I'd get a kick out of it. I mean, I still prefer other digital modes, but RTTY once in a while can be fun too, I've discovered. Jim - K6JM - Original Message - From: Ralph Mowery To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Olivia vs. RTTY vs. PSK spectrum efficiency - Original Message From: g4ilo jul...@g4ilo.com To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, July 20, 2010 4:29:15 AM Subject: [digitalradio] Re: Olivia vs. RTTY vs. PSK spectrum efficiency Just because a mode is better doesn't mean that people will want to use it, though, and I guess both RTTY and PSK31 are so established now that you'll never persuade people to give them up. Julian, G4ILO While rtty can be replaced by other modes, they will not run on the 50 plus old mechanical printers and the demodulators that go with them. Just as some like to run AM on the ham bands. Not that good of a use of bandwidth, but just something to play with that many enjoy.I doubt that many hams that run the digital modes can really type very fast and depend on the micros in the programs. For the ones doing it in real time, psk31 probably has enough speed.
Re: [digitalradio] Re: Olivia vs. RTTY vs. PSK spectrum efficiency
From: J. Moen j...@jwmoen.com To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, July 20, 2010 8:33:06 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Re: Olivia vs. RTTY vs. PSK spectrum efficiency I completely understand the lure of the old mechanical teleprinters. But I have to say I was surprised at my reaction to the addition of RTTY to the firmware in my NUE-PSK modem. I typically use the NUE-PSK battery powered plugged into my 817 while doing QRP in the field. I don't need to lug along a laptop to do PSK31. Apparently it was easy for them to add RTTY support, and by golly, I found myself doing the occasionally RTTY QSO using this little device. And it was fun. I would not have guessed a modern little device like the NUE-PSK would ever support RTTY, and I would not have guessed I'd get a kick out of it. I mean, I still prefer other digital modes, but RTTY once in a while can be fun too, I've discovered. Jim - K6JM I have an old mechanical printer that dates back to around 1945. Still works fine. I let it run just to watch it work. Sometimes it is interisting to compair the print of the old 1970 something homebuilt modem and mechanical printer with the modern sound card programs. The NUE-PSK should not be hard to impliment rtty on. I wrote a program to run on an 8080 processor board that only had 1 K of ram and 2 K of rom in it about 30 years ago. I did have an external modem to convert the tones to pulses. Same one that worked the mechanical printer. While the NUE-PSK looks interisting, I have a small netbook computer that will run all the sound card programs. If you have to have a keyboard, the netbook is not much larger with its 10 inch screen. . A small interface box handles the audio interface.
