Re: Moving foundation-list to discourse?

[Benjamin Berg]

On Wed, 2019-10-16 at 18:47 -0700, Philip Chimento via foundation-list
wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 1:50 PM Tobias Mueller  > wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > On Fri, 2019-10-04 at 18:35 -0700, philip.chime...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > I don't find it the best policy to optimize for the convenience of
> > > non-members who want to send insulting rants to foundation-list
> > Sure. But I don't think we're optimising for those. In fact, the number
> > of insulting rants is surprisingly low.
> 
> I would _expect_ zero. I don't sign up to the mailing list of a
> nonprofit so I can watch people abuse the nonprofit's staff.

I think most people would expect zero car accidents, yet they happen
and people do die. Should we ban cars now?

I agree that zero is a nice goal, but one needs to put things into
perspective. Don't forget that there are costs attached to any such
decisions. These costs can be both direct (e.g. enforcement) and
indirect (e.g. false negative rate). And you are also likely to have
other unforeseen side-effects.

And, I don't think that is purely theoretical. Somewhat related, I have
real concerns with the recently approved Code of Conduct documents; yet
I have not spoken up so far. Mainly because I don't feel the Board and 
Code of Conduct Committee would welcome the feedback.

Benjamin

> > Arguably lower than the number
> > of posts that were banned for no obvious reason.
> 
> Are we currently moderating posts on foundation-list or not? I
> thought this whole discussion was about the fact that we are not. If
> we are, and if legitimate posts are truly being banned, then clearly
> we need a different moderation process because it's not working in
> either direction. Can you give an example of a post that was banned
> for no obvious reason so we know what we're talking about?
> -- 
> Philip
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Re: Moving foundation-list to discourse?

[Alexandre Franke]

On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 3:47 AM  wrote:
>
> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 1:50 PM Tobias Mueller  wrote:
> I would _expect_ zero. I don't sign up to the mailing list of a nonprofit so 
> I can watch people abuse the nonprofit's staff.

Just like I would expect zero of these unpleasant messages on
discourse. Yet Internet is a thing and such messages will happen
whatever the medium is.

>> Arguably lower than the number
>> of posts that were banned for no obvious reason.
>
> Are we currently moderating posts on foundation-list or not? I thought this
> whole discussion was about the fact that we are not. If we are, and if 
> legitimate
> posts are truly being banned, then clearly we need a different moderation 
> process
> because it's not working in either direction. Can you give an example of a 
> post
> that was banned for no obvious reason so we know what we're talking about?

Tobias was comparing the list to discourse where the banning happens.
You can’t follow the conversation if you are ignoring the context of
it.

-- 
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GNOME Hacker
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Re: Moving foundation-list to discourse?

[Philip Chimento via foundation-list]

On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 1:50 PM Tobias Mueller 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Fri, 2019-10-04 at 18:35 -0700, philip.chime...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I don't find it the best policy to optimize for the convenience of
> > non-members who want to send insulting rants to foundation-list
> Sure. But I don't think we're optimising for those. In fact, the number
> of insulting rants is surprisingly low.


I would _expect_ zero. I don't sign up to the mailing list of a nonprofit
so I can watch people abuse the nonprofit's staff.


> Arguably lower than the number
> of posts that were banned for no obvious reason.
>

Are we currently moderating posts on foundation-list or not? I thought this
whole discussion was about the fact that we are not. If we are, and if
legitimate posts are truly being banned, then clearly we need a different
moderation process because it's not working in either direction. Can you
give an example of a post that was banned for no obvious reason so we know
what we're talking about?
-- 
Philip
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Re: Moving foundation-list to discourse?

[Tobias Mueller]

Hi,

On Fri, 2019-10-04 at 18:35 -0700, philip.chime...@gmail.com wrote:
> I don't find it the best policy to optimize for the convenience of
> non-members who want to send insulting rants to foundation-list
Sure. But I don't think we're optimising for those. In fact, the number
of insulting rants is surprisingly low. Arguably lower than the number
of posts that were banned for no obvious reason.

As you can see, people have different opinions on what they feel is
offending. And I'd rather see the occasional troll posting than banning
one legitimate mail.

Cheers,
  Tobi

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Re: Moving foundation-list to discourse?

[Nirbheek Chauhan via foundation-list]

On Sat, Oct 5, 2019 at 4:26 PM Alexandre Franke  wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 6:01 PM meg ford  wrote:
> > Thanks! Good point. I do need to send emails to foundation list on behalf of
> > the Travel Committee though and dealing with moderation as someone who
> > isn’t a list member could be time consuming.
>
> What’s to deal with? Moderators (I am one of them) have been looking
> at incoming email and letting them through in a timely fashion without
> the need for the senders to intervene.
>

This is not a sustainable solution (volunteers come and go), it's not
the correct solution to the actual problem (anyone can subscribe and
post unmoderated messages), nor is it a good temporary solution (why
are foundation members being driven away from the foundation list?).

Cheers,
Nirbheek
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Re: Moving foundation-list to discourse?

[Alexandre Franke]

On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 6:01 PM meg ford  wrote:
> Thanks! Good point. I do need to send emails to foundation list on behalf of
> the Travel Committee though and dealing with moderation as someone who
> isn’t a list member could be time consuming.

What’s to deal with? Moderators (I am one of them) have been looking
at incoming email and letting them through in a timely fashion without
the need for the senders to intervene.

-- 
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GNOME Hacker
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Re: Moving foundation-list to discourse?

[Philip Chimento via foundation-list]

On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 12:32 AM Tobias Mueller 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Thu, 2019-10-03 at 11:00 -0500, meg ford via foundation-list wrote:
> > I do need to send emails to foundation list on
> > behalf of the Travel Committee though and dealing with moderation as
> > someone who isn’t a list member could be time consuming.
> It's not so much, esp. since a whitelist could be set up.
>
> And you could (and should) configure your Email setup to filter what you
> want or not want to see.
>

I don't find it the best policy to optimize for the convenience of
non-members who want to send insulting rants to foundation-list. I'd rather
optimize for the convenience of members who don't wish to read insulting
rants. As a member I wouldn't expect to have to set up an email filter — or
do anything, really — for this.

Regards,
-- 
Philip C
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Re: Moving foundation-list to discourse?

[meg ford via foundation-list]

Hi,

On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 2:32 AM Tobias Mueller  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Thu, 2019-10-03 at 11:00 -0500, meg ford via foundation-list wrote:
> > I do need to send emails to foundation list on
> > behalf of the Travel Committee though and dealing with moderation as
> > someone who isn’t a list member could be time consuming.
> It's not so much, esp. since a whitelist could be set up.
>
> And you could (and should) configure your Email setup to filter what you
> want or not want to see.
>

I’m sure I and everyone else who wants a tool with better moderation
capabilities could set up email filters, yes. Personally I don’t think
that’s a very good solution to the problem.

Thanks,
Meg

>
> Cheers,
>  Tobi
>
>
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Re: Moving foundation-list to discourse?

[Tobias Mueller]

Hi,

On Thu, 2019-10-03 at 11:00 -0500, meg ford via foundation-list wrote:
> I do need to send emails to foundation list on
> behalf of the Travel Committee though and dealing with moderation as
> someone who isn’t a list member could be time consuming.
It's not so much, esp. since a whitelist could be set up.

And you could (and should) configure your Email setup to filter what you
want or not want to see.

Cheers,
 Tobi

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Re: Moving foundation-list to discourse?

[Michael Catanzaro]

I won't take a stance on Discourse but I would like to hear from our 
Discourse moderators about their thoughts on a couple moderation issues 
I've noticed.


#1, posts are being hidden rather aggressively, including seemingly 
innocuous posts like 
https://discourse.gnome.org/t/are-you-happy-with-javascript-programming-language-used-by-gnome-project/1744:


"""
I would like to ask if is there anything that annoys you about 
JavaScript, what makes you angry or inefficient while working with this 
language, or maybe what others do incorrectly when using this language 
to develop Gnome Shell Extensions and Applications.


Is JavaScript here (In the Gnome community) to stay for a long, what 
would be better and why?

"""

I can't imagine any reason that should have been hidden. It makes the 
rest of the topic hard to follow. I'm not sure why users flagged this 
topic (maybe misclicks?) or why human moderators didn't correct it (are 
there humans reviewing reported posts)? Furthermore, it's the first 
post in the topic. Surely the entire topic should be hidden if the 
first post is hidden, since it would be nonsensical to view a topic 
without its starting point.


Another less-serious example of a moderation problem, here:

https://discourse.gnome.org/t/official-applications/1663/2

A low-quality post was hidden, but the follow-up post was not. Now 
people reading the topic will want to go back to the hidden post to see 
why Pavlo wrote what he did. When a post is removed, any other posts 
quoting it should also be removed or the discussion doesn't flow 
properly without the hidden posts, and the point of having hidden the 
first post is defeated.


Michael


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Re: Moving foundation-list to discourse?

[meg ford via foundation-list]

Hi,

On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 1:38 PM Bradley M. Kuhn  wrote:

> I am a GNOME Foundation Member *Emeritus*, so please don't take my opinion
> as
> too important.
>
> Olav Vitters wrote, back in August when proposing Discourse:
> > Discourse is free software (including the Javascript) and the
> > dependencies are also free software.
>
> This is correct, "for the moment".  However, Discourse is somewhat of a
> monoculture project, controlled by one company, and has some troubling
> similarities to MongoDB in this regard.  I encourage everyone in the GNOME
> Foundation read Discourse's CLA [0] (which is a Google Doc and likely
> requires non-free Javascript to sign, although not to read), and decide if
> the GNOME Foundation should be comfortable relying on as critical
> infrastructure for a project that has this sort of non-community-oriented
> licensing and governance model.
>
> Of course, Discourse, the software, may well be forked under GPL if
> Discourse, the company, ever uses the CLA to make the canonical version
> into
> proprietary software, but given the monoculture of the project development,
> that might be unrealistic logistically and resource-wise.
>
> Also, given that Discourse is both the name of the software and the name of
> the company, GF will be de-facto promoting the company (and, by
> implication,
> their business model) merely by using the software publicly.


Thanks for the information! I’d like to point out that GNOME is already
using discourse, so while it’s good to take this into account I think it’s
more relevant to the general decision and less relevant to the question of
whether we should move the foundation list.

Cheers,
Meg

>
>
>   * * *
>
> One of my favorite pieces of GNOME history that I was involved with was the
> GNOME copyright assignment policy
> <
> https://wiki.gnome.org/action/show/FoundationBoard/Resources/CopyrightAssignment
> >
> , which I am proud to have helped create and draft.  I was so glad that
> GNOME
> took a strong position against proprietary relicensing by for-profit
> companies, as most copylefted project have historically not taken that kind
> of stand.
>
> So, I mainly just want to point out that Discourse *is* such a company.  Of
> course, everyone of us -- even those that use 100% Free Software on our
> machines -- probably use some copylefted software from a company that does
> this kind of thing, so I don't think this issue should necessarily preclude
> GNOME Foundation from choosing to officially rely on such software, but I
> suggest the issue is at least worth discussing before the change is made.
>
> I won't say more on this issue since I'm only a Member Emeritus; it's for
> the
> members to decide this question.
>
> Tobias Mueller  wrote:
> >> I found the discourse mailing list mode to be inferior to a mailing
> list.
>
> I admit I also agree with this, but I assumed (at least on my old behalf)
> that I'm just an old dog who doesn't want to learn new tricks. :)
>
> I admit that especially since becoming Emeritus, it's been easier for me to
> check in with what GF is up to by quickly skimming through emails on this
> list in my usual way, and I lament the change as it's likely to lead me to
> "not check" at all because it won't be worth figuring out Discourse's email
> interface to keep up with a project that I'm not actively working with.
> But,
> again, don't let the opinion of one Emeritus member stop you from needed
> progress. :)
>
>
> This is apropos of nothing, but I wanted to mention that I was on a plane
> last week and I saw someone using GNOME.  Usually, when I'm on the plane
> going to a tech conference, the person using GNOME is going to the same
> conference as me.  Then, I saw they were just using LIbreOffice to work on
> mundane business documents -- clearly stuff not related to the tech
> industry.
> This was so wonderful to see and while I know that competing with Microsoft
> and Apple for the desktop remains difficult and challenging, there are
> users
> out there who aren't tech geeks using GNOME every day and getting real
> introduction to software freedom thanks to the work you all do.  As I said
> in
> my GUADEC keynote years ago, thank you all again for doing this work!
>
>
> [0] CLA is at
> <
> https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSd7JzGhGR-B9pFrg2byt2tnRjMqJtpnA0Yktl4dwy0-4tGo8g/viewform
> >
> which is linked from <
> https://github.com/discourse/discourse/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md>
> --
> Bradley M. Kuhn - he/him
>
> Pls. support the charity where I work, Software Freedom Conservancy:
> https://sfconservancy.org/supporter/
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Re: Moving foundation-list to discourse?

[Bradley M. Kuhn]

I am a GNOME Foundation Member *Emeritus*, so please don't take my opinion as
too important.

Olav Vitters wrote, back in August when proposing Discourse:
> Discourse is free software (including the Javascript) and the
> dependencies are also free software.

This is correct, "for the moment".  However, Discourse is somewhat of a
monoculture project, controlled by one company, and has some troubling
similarities to MongoDB in this regard.  I encourage everyone in the GNOME
Foundation read Discourse's CLA [0] (which is a Google Doc and likely
requires non-free Javascript to sign, although not to read), and decide if
the GNOME Foundation should be comfortable relying on as critical
infrastructure for a project that has this sort of non-community-oriented
licensing and governance model.

Of course, Discourse, the software, may well be forked under GPL if
Discourse, the company, ever uses the CLA to make the canonical version into
proprietary software, but given the monoculture of the project development,
that might be unrealistic logistically and resource-wise.

Also, given that Discourse is both the name of the software and the name of
the company, GF will be de-facto promoting the company (and, by implication,
their business model) merely by using the software publicly.

  * * *

One of my favorite pieces of GNOME history that I was involved with was the
GNOME copyright assignment policy

, which I am proud to have helped create and draft.  I was so glad that GNOME
took a strong position against proprietary relicensing by for-profit
companies, as most copylefted project have historically not taken that kind
of stand.

So, I mainly just want to point out that Discourse *is* such a company.  Of
course, everyone of us -- even those that use 100% Free Software on our
machines -- probably use some copylefted software from a company that does
this kind of thing, so I don't think this issue should necessarily preclude
GNOME Foundation from choosing to officially rely on such software, but I
suggest the issue is at least worth discussing before the change is made.

I won't say more on this issue since I'm only a Member Emeritus; it's for the
members to decide this question.

Tobias Mueller  wrote:
>> I found the discourse mailing list mode to be inferior to a mailing list.

I admit I also agree with this, but I assumed (at least on my old behalf)
that I'm just an old dog who doesn't want to learn new tricks. :)

I admit that especially since becoming Emeritus, it's been easier for me to
check in with what GF is up to by quickly skimming through emails on this
list in my usual way, and I lament the change as it's likely to lead me to
"not check" at all because it won't be worth figuring out Discourse's email
interface to keep up with a project that I'm not actively working with.  But,
again, don't let the opinion of one Emeritus member stop you from needed
progress. :)


This is apropos of nothing, but I wanted to mention that I was on a plane
last week and I saw someone using GNOME.  Usually, when I'm on the plane
going to a tech conference, the person using GNOME is going to the same
conference as me.  Then, I saw they were just using LIbreOffice to work on
mundane business documents -- clearly stuff not related to the tech industry.
This was so wonderful to see and while I know that competing with Microsoft
and Apple for the desktop remains difficult and challenging, there are users
out there who aren't tech geeks using GNOME every day and getting real
introduction to software freedom thanks to the work you all do.  As I said in
my GUADEC keynote years ago, thank you all again for doing this work!


[0] CLA is at


which is linked from 

--
Bradley M. Kuhn - he/him

Pls. support the charity where I work, Software Freedom Conservancy:
https://sfconservancy.org/supporter/
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Re: Moving foundation-list to discourse?

[meg ford via foundation-list]

Hi,

On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 1:28 AM Alexandre Franke  wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 11:14 PM meg ford via foundation-list
>  wrote:
> > Hi,
>
> Hi Meg,
>
> > I'd prefer to use Discourse. I'm sick of the spam and would like to
> leave foundation list, but still want to read Board minutes.
>
> Board minutes are posted to foundation-announce as well so if that’s
> all you care about on foundation-list you can unsubscribe regardless
> of a move to discourse.
>

Thanks! Good point. I do need to send emails to foundation list on behalf
of the Travel Committee though and dealing with moderation as someone who
isn’t a list member could be time consuming.

Meg

>
> Cheers,
>
> --
> Alexandre Franke
> GNOME Hacker
>
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Re: Moving foundation-list to discourse?

[Allan Day]

Neil McGovern  wrote:
...
> > I think with Discourse you have to opt in to get email notifications?
> > That could be an issue. Certainly with things like the AGM, the board
> > is required to serve notice to all members.
>
> Yes, you do. Although for AGM notices etc, I don't think it's
> sufficient to simply post to a mailing list. For this year's one, we
> sent an individual mail to each member.

Sorry, I thought that I'd replied to this - thanks for the
clarification. Consider my query resolved - let's make the move!

Allan
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Re: Moving foundation-list to discourse?

[Alexandre Franke]

On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 11:14 PM meg ford via foundation-list
 wrote:
> Hi,

Hi Meg,

> I'd prefer to use Discourse. I'm sick of the spam and would like to leave 
> foundation list, but still want to read Board minutes.

Board minutes are posted to foundation-announce as well so if that’s
all you care about on foundation-list you can unsubscribe regardless
of a move to discourse.

Cheers,

-- 
Alexandre Franke
GNOME Hacker
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Re: Moving foundation-list to discourse?

[Nirbheek Chauhan via foundation-list]

On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 2:44 AM meg ford via foundation-list
 wrote:
> I'd prefer to use Discourse. I'm sick of the spam and would like to leave 
> foundation list, but still want to read Board minutes.
>

+1, the latest unsolicited spam/troll email on the foundation list has
really been the final straw for me. Better moderation and filtering is
more important than edge-cases in text rendering.

Regards,
Nirbheek
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Re: Moving foundation-list to discourse?

[meg ford via foundation-list]

Hi,

I'd prefer to use Discourse. I'm sick of the spam and would like to leave
foundation list, but still want to read Board minutes.

Thanks,
Meg

On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 7:22 AM Tobias Mueller  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Tue, 2019-08-13 at 18:28 +, Olav Vitters wrote:
> > It's
> > even possible to make Discourse behave like an mailing list.
> I found the discourse mailing list mode to be inferior to a mailing
> list.
>
> For example, code posted on the Web looks much different than what gets
> sent via email, cf. https://ibb.co/g3nHtB5. I don't think it's possible
> to discuss code like that.
> Another issue I have is that the "mailing list mode" effectively
> subscribes you to every "mailing list" rather than the one you were
> interested in.
> I appreciate that the "guide to discourse with email" posted at
> https://discourse.gnome.org/t/interacting-with-discourse-via-email/46
> mentions that the mailing list mode is "hardcore", but the alternatives
> are lacking.  That is, "watching" a topic doesn't send you an email if you
> have read (or written) something on the Web interface. At least that didn't
> work for me.
> I can now mute topics, but then I get surprised as soon as new mailing
> lists are being created on the discourse platform.
>
> Or have I just not found the right buttons to click?
>
>
> Also, I wonder what the expected benefits of blocking replies to a
> thread that hasn't received a message for 14 days are. Or is that just
> default configuration that hasn't been changed?
>
> Cheers,
>   Tobi
>
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Re: Moving foundation-list to discourse?

[Tobias Mueller]

Hi,

On Tue, 2019-08-13 at 18:28 +, Olav Vitters wrote:
> It's
> even possible to make Discourse behave like an mailing list.
I found the discourse mailing list mode to be inferior to a mailing
list.

For example, code posted on the Web looks much different than what gets
sent via email, cf. https://ibb.co/g3nHtB5. I don't think it's possible
to discuss code like that.
Another issue I have is that the "mailing list mode" effectively
subscribes you to every "mailing list" rather than the one you were
interested in.
I appreciate that the "guide to discourse with email" posted at 
https://discourse.gnome.org/t/interacting-with-discourse-via-email/46
mentions that the mailing list mode is "hardcore", but the alternatives are 
lacking.  That is, "watching" a topic doesn't send you an email if you have 
read (or written) something on the Web interface. At least that didn't work for 
me.
I can now mute topics, but then I get surprised as soon as new mailing
lists are being created on the discourse platform.

Or have I just not found the right buttons to click?


Also, I wonder what the expected benefits of blocking replies to a
thread that hasn't received a message for 14 days are. Or is that just
default configuration that hasn't been changed?

Cheers,
  Tobi

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Re: Moving foundation-list to discourse?

[Neil McGovern]

On Wed, 2019-09-04 at 11:09 +0100, Allan Day wrote:
> I think with Discourse you have to opt in to get email notifications?
> That could be an issue. Certainly with things like the AGM, the board
> is required to serve notice to all members.

Yes, you do. Although for AGM notices etc, I don't think it's
sufficient to simply post to a mailing list. For this year's one, we
sent an individual mail to each member.

Neil
-- 
Neil McGovern
Executive Director, The GNOME Foundation

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Re: Moving foundation-list to discourse?

[Allan Day]

Neil McGovern  wrote:
...
> On Fri, 2019-08-30 at 11:10 +0200, Alexandre Franke wrote:
> > Not objecting at all but I think this raises a couple questions as to
> > what it would entail, most notable regarding board meeting minutes
> > and other announcements. Currently, most of them are sent to the
> > foundation-announce list which I assume we want to keep, but then any
> > followup discussion lands on foundation-list. I’m not sure how that
> > would work with Discourse.
>
> I would imagine actually, that it may be better to just post these to
> Discourse, in the community category. There's a couple of ways that we
> can improve visibility by using tags and stickies for important things
...

I have to admit that, personally, I'm more aware of emails coming from
lists than what's on Discourse. Although, I'm sure that's not the case
for everyone...

I think with Discourse you have to opt in to get email notifications?
That could be an issue. Certainly with things like the AGM, the board
is required to serve notice to all members.

Allan
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Re: Moving foundation-list to discourse?

[Neil McGovern]

On Wed, 2019-09-04 at 01:51 -0400, Richard Stallman wrote:
> I have heard that there is a gateway between Discourse and email.
> Is it possible to use that here?
> 

It's already in place.

Neil
-- 
Neil McGovern
Executive Director, The GNOME Foundation

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Re: Moving foundation-list to discourse?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

I have heard that there is a gateway between Discourse and email.
Is it possible to use that here?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)


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Re: Moving foundation-list to discourse?

[Neil McGovern]

On Fri, 2019-08-30 at 11:10 +0200, Alexandre Franke wrote:
> Not objecting at all but I think this raises a couple questions as to
> what it would entail, most notable regarding board meeting minutes
> and other announcements. Currently, most of them are sent to the
> foundation-announce list which I assume we want to keep, but then any
> followup discussion lands on foundation-list. I’m not sure how that
> would work with Discourse.

I would imagine actually, that it may be better to just post these to
Discourse, in the community category. There's a couple of ways that we
can improve visibility by using tags and stickies for important things
(for example, we already have the #announcements tag: 
https://discourse.gnome.org/tags/announcement)

We could add a #minutes tag too. One advantage of this is that users
can subscribe to a particular tag, and get notifications about those.

Would that make sense?

Neil
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Neil McGovern
Executive Director, The GNOME Foundation

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Re: Moving foundation-list to discourse?

[Alexandre Franke]

On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 10:19 PM Olav Vitters  wrote:
> Was there a discussion about this at GUADEC? As it's been a while and
> nobody seems to object I think everything is ok with moving to
> Discourse.

Not objecting at all but I think this raises a couple questions as to
what it would entail, most notable regarding board meeting minutes and
other announcements. Currently, most of them are sent to the
foundation-announce list which I assume we want to keep, but then any
followup discussion lands on foundation-list. I’m not sure how that
would work with Discourse. Would announcements need to be sent to both
Discourse and the -announce list? That would mean significantly more
work for the senders as they could not just add a recipient to their
email and would have to send the email then browse their way to the
relevant section and post a message on Discourse.

-- 
Alexandre Franke
GNOME Hacker
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Re: Moving foundation-list to discourse?

[Allan Day]

Olav Vitters  wrote:
...
> Was there a discussion about this at GUADEC? As it's been a while and
> nobody seems to object I think everything is ok with moving to
> Discourse.

Given the positive response to other lists migrating, I'd be in favour.

I think my only question is a more general one about how people know
where to go for discussions. It's not great being in an in-between
state with half our lists on mailman and half on discourse.

Allan
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Re: Moving foundation-list to discourse?

[Olav Vitters]

On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 01:06:05PM -0700, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote:
> Sounds good to me. As the person who pushed engagement team to move
> over, I'm fully behind moving everything to discourse!

Was there a discussion about this at GUADEC? As it's been a while and
nobody seems to object I think everything is ok with moving to
Discourse.

-- 
Regards,
Olav
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Re: Moving foundation-list to discourse?

[Sriram Ramkrishna]

Sounds good to me. As the person who pushed engagement team to move
over, I'm fully behind moving everything to discourse!
sri

On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 1:03 PM Neil McGovern  wrote:
>
> Hi Olav,
>
> On Tue, 2019-08-13 at 18:28 +, Olav Vitters wrote:
> > it has been around half a year since GNOME started to host a
> > Discourse[0] instance, which was generally well received.
> >
> > Listadmin wise (I'm NOT the admin here!), mailman is not really nice
> > to
> > use. If something ends up in the moderation queue it'll take quite a
> > bit
> > of effort for a moderator to look at it.
> >
> > Discourse is free software (including the Javascript) and the
> > dependencies are also free software.
> >
> > You can sign up in various ways. First of all there's regular
> > email+password. It also allows single-sign on systems, like Google
> > and
> > Github, to authenticate yourself. Lastly (and preferred way) if you
> > have
> > a GNOME LDAP account already, you're strongly encouraged to use that
> > method of authentication.
> >
> > You can still use email to interact with Discourse, and a guide is
> > available[2]. The interaction is both ways (sending and receiving).
> > It's
> > even possible to make Discourse behave like an mailing list.
> >
> > For specific questions or feedback on Discourse, please post in the
> > appropriate category[3].
> >
> > Do people agree to move this to Discourse? Does anyone have
> > objections
> > or concerns? I didn't check with the current list admins btw.
> >
>
> As another data point, all GTK (and builder) discussions have moved to
> discourse, and I know the Docs teams are also willing to transition.
> GTK has seen much more activity on there than all GTK lists combined
> with mailman.
>
> In general, I would suggest that the foundation list moves over, unless
> there are actually any serious objections. Perhaps a discussion at
> GUADEC could also be had.
>
> If there's no objections, I'm happy to help manage the transition, with
> an aim of retiring this list by the end of October.
>
> Comments please!
>
> Neil
> --
> Neil McGovern
> Executive Director, The GNOME Foundation
>
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Re: Moving foundation-list to discourse?

[Neil McGovern]

Hi Olav,

On Tue, 2019-08-13 at 18:28 +, Olav Vitters wrote:
> it has been around half a year since GNOME started to host a
> Discourse[0] instance, which was generally well received.
> 
> Listadmin wise (I'm NOT the admin here!), mailman is not really nice
> to
> use. If something ends up in the moderation queue it'll take quite a
> bit
> of effort for a moderator to look at it.
> 
> Discourse is free software (including the Javascript) and the
> dependencies are also free software.
> 
> You can sign up in various ways. First of all there's regular
> email+password. It also allows single-sign on systems, like Google
> and
> Github, to authenticate yourself. Lastly (and preferred way) if you
> have
> a GNOME LDAP account already, you're strongly encouraged to use that
> method of authentication.
> 
> You can still use email to interact with Discourse, and a guide is
> available[2]. The interaction is both ways (sending and receiving).
> It's
> even possible to make Discourse behave like an mailing list.
> 
> For specific questions or feedback on Discourse, please post in the
> appropriate category[3].
> 
> Do people agree to move this to Discourse? Does anyone have
> objections
> or concerns? I didn't check with the current list admins btw.
> 

As another data point, all GTK (and builder) discussions have moved to
discourse, and I know the Docs teams are also willing to transition.
GTK has seen much more activity on there than all GTK lists combined
with mailman.

In general, I would suggest that the foundation list moves over, unless
there are actually any serious objections. Perhaps a discussion at
GUADEC could also be had.

If there's no objections, I'm happy to help manage the transition, with
an aim of retiring this list by the end of October.

Comments please!

Neil
-- 
Neil McGovern
Executive Director, The GNOME Foundation

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