date:20101112

Quoth Chad Perrin on Thursday, 11 November 2010:
 On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 06:09:15PM +, Bruce Cran wrote:
  On Wed, 10 Nov 2010 09:57:17 -0800
  Chip Camden sterl...@camdensoftware.com wrote:
  
   However, for automating repeated tasks (as distinguished from running
   automated tests of the GUI itself), scripting a GUI is the wrong way
   to do it.  It's layering on an entirely unnecessary layer of
   abstraction (the UI), and then working around it.
  
  This is why at least on Windows there's often a C/COM/.NET API that
  allows the same level of control that the GUI provides, so that
  customers can automate tasks.
 
 It's too bad such APIs require so much more knowledge, and present so
 much more of a barrier to entry for automating tasks, than a simpler CLI
 filter's interface provides via something like the Unix pipeline.
 
 -- 
 Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]


True -- let's say the customer wants to have their application send email
notifications.  If I tell the customer to open a pipe to mutt or mail,
they can pop that in and test it in a few minutes.  If they have to
automate Outlook, or use the MAPI or CDO interfaces, then we're talking about a
project.  In fact, I've billed quite a few hours doing just that sort of
work.  If all I cared about was the money I could fleece off of them, then I'd 
steer
more customers towards these unnaturally complex solutions.

-- 
Sterling (Chip) Camden| sterl...@camdensoftware.com | 2048D/3A978E4F
http://camdensoftware.com | http://chipstips.com| http://chipsquips.com


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mergemaster comparing everything.

Hi,

is there a trick besides using the rcs funktion of mergemaster to get
around having to look at every file in /etc for comparison?
I know there once was a bug in mergemaster but it's closed for a long
time now.

Example:

  *** Displaying differences between ./etc/periodic/daily/300.calendar
and installed version:

--- /etc/periodic/daily/300.calendar2010-07-29 12:54:42.0
+0200
+++ ./etc/periodic/daily/300.calendar   2010-11-12 17:06:33.0
+0100
@@ -1,6 +1,6 @@
 #!/bin/sh
 #
-# $FreeBSD: src/etc/periodic/daily/300.calendar,v 1.5.36.1.4.1
2010/06/14 02:09:06 kensmith Exp $
+# $FreeBSD: src/etc/periodic/daily/300.calendar,v 1.5.36.1 2009/08/03
08:13:06 kensmith Exp $
 #
 # `calendar -a' needs to die. Why? Because it's a bad idea, particular
 # with networked home directories, but also in general.  If you want
 # the

90% of the differences are just in this cvs? tag lines. This is an
upgrade from 8.1 to -STABLE.

Greetings,
Leon
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Re: Why do you use a devil as a mascot?

Quoth Dave Robison on Thursday, 11 November 2010:
 On 11/11/10 15:39, José Silveira wrote:
 Why do you use a devil as a mascot?
 
 For me it is nonsense... It makes Christians, Jwishes and Muslins run away!
 
 José Silveira
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 And those are just a couple of the benefits!
 

Winner of the Award for Best Laugh of the Morning.

-- 
Sterling (Chip) Camden| sterl...@camdensoftware.com | 2048D/3A978E4F
http://camdensoftware.com | http://chipstips.com| http://chipsquips.com


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Re: Xorg support for adding a graphics card

2010-11-12 Thread Fbsd8


doug wrote:

On Mon, 8 Nov 2010, doug wrote:


On Mon, 8 Nov 2010, Jerry wrote:


On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 17:08:23 -0500 (EST)
d...@safeport.com d...@safeport.com articulated:


When I slid froward from FreeBSD 7.2 and Xorg (whatever) to 8.0 and
xorg-7.4_4 I lost the ability to use the graphics card I had added to
my Dell PE300 built in the last century. I was told the ability to
have two cards in one box was lost due to int10 provided by
libpciaccess.

Is this still the case? The BIOS on the PE300 does not allow the
on-board card to 'disappear'. I can not find any information to
suggest things have changed.


Isn't there a jumper on the motherboard that can be used to disable
the on board card? Not all motherboards had one but it is worth a check
anyway, assuming you have not done so all ready.


I was not aware of the possibility - thanks


The PE300 has no documented jumpers on the mother board effecting the 
VGA. Am I correct in my understanding that this is a FreeBSD issue that 
makes Xorg a 'victim'?

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Check the motherboard bios setup to disable the on motherboard vga port.
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Re: Fwd: Why do you use a devil as a mascot?

Quoth Neal Hogan on Thursday, 11 November 2010:
 -- Forwarded message --
 From: José Silveira jmlsilve...@gmail.com
 Date: 2010/11/11
 Subject: Re: Why do you use a devil as a mascot?
 To: Neal Hogan nealho...@gmail.com

 What an absurd! A guy makes a question and an stupid like you send me
 this crap! I hope freebsd explodes!

 2010/11/12 Neal Hogan nealho...@gmail.com

  2010/11/11 Neal Hogan nealho...@gmail.com:
   2010/11/11 José Silveira jmlsilve...@gmail.com:
   Why do you use a devil as a mascot?

   For me it is nonsense... It makes Christians, Jwishes and Muslins run 
   away!

   Is this better?

  (sorry) http://www.openbsd.org/art/newhead.jpg
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Naturally he lashed out at you, the one respondent who actually tried to
provide a solution for his non-problem.

-- 
Sterling (Chip) Camden| sterl...@camdensoftware.com | 2048D/3A978E4F
http://camdensoftware.com | http://chipstips.com| http://chipsquips.com

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Re: How do we like our base kerberos? Will it flee soon?

On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 04:22:57PM +0100, Joerg Pulz wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1
 
 
 On Wed, 10 Nov 2010, Leon Meßner wrote:
 
  Hi,
 
  What i didn't try:
 
  - Use the port.
 
 please take a look at ports/152030 and the patches i mentioned in the PR.
 
 With applied ports/152030 and the world patch applied, you should be able 
 to build a world fully against the security/heimdal port by simply 
 specifying WITH_KERBEROS_PORT=1 in /etc/src.conf and HEIMDAL_HOME=prefix 
 (normally /usr/local) in /etc/make.conf.
 You should specify WITHOUT_KERBEROS=1 in /etc/src.conf to avoid mess and 
 confusion with two different heimdal version installed.
 
 Don't forget to install the security/heimdal port first.
 
 Comments are welcome.

Did exactly as told and everything worked fine. Im currently in the
process of rebuilding gssapi dependent software. Will tell if it fixed
my issue.

thanks,
Leon
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Re: mergemaster comparing everything.


On Fri, 12 Nov 2010, Leon Me?ner wrote:


is there a trick besides using the rcs funktion of mergemaster to get
around having to look at every file in /etc for comparison?
I know there once was a bug in mergemaster but it's closed for a long
time now.

...

90% of the differences are just in this cvs? tag lines. This is an
upgrade from 8.1 to -STABLE.


'mergemaster -Ui' helps.
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Re: Xorg support for adding a graphics card

2010-11-12 Thread doug


On Fri, 12 Nov 2010, Fbsd8 wrote:


doug wrote:

On Mon, 8 Nov 2010, doug wrote:


On Mon, 8 Nov 2010, Jerry wrote:


On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 17:08:23 -0500 (EST)
d...@safeport.com d...@safeport.com articulated:


When I slid froward from FreeBSD 7.2 and Xorg (whatever) to 8.0 and
xorg-7.4_4 I lost the ability to use the graphics card I had added to
my Dell PE300 built in the last century. I was told the ability to
have two cards in one box was lost due to int10 provided by
libpciaccess.

Is this still the case? The BIOS on the PE300 does not allow the
on-board card to 'disappear'. I can not find any information to
suggest things have changed.


Isn't there a jumper on the motherboard that can be used to disable
the on board card? Not all motherboards had one but it is worth a check
anyway, assuming you have not done so all ready.


I was not aware of the possibility - thanks


The PE300 has no documented jumpers on the mother board effecting the VGA. 
Am I correct in my understanding that this is a FreeBSD issue that makes 
Xorg a 'victim'?

___



Check the motherboard bios setup to disable the on motherboard vga port.



Thanks. The [latest] BIOS has one VGA option:

   Video DAC Snoop Controls how VGA and graphics devices on the PCI or AGP
   bus respond to palette register accesses.

* On  - forces VGA and graphics devices to snoop VGA palette register
accesses and forward them to the ISA bus.
* Off - (the default) forces VGA and graphics devices to respond
positively to palette register accesses.

There is no hardware relief for the Dell PE300 that does not involve 
modifying the mother, assuming that is possible.


I have [mostly] covered the fact that I have 1152x864 as the screen 
resolution by making things smaller in KDE and setting fonts in xterm. This 
system was made less useful by upgrading to FreeBSD 8. I am trying to find 
out if support for multiple VGA cards is in the works and what needs to 
change for that to happen.


_
Douglas Denault
http://www.safeport.com
d...@safeport.com
Voice: 301-217-9220
  Fax: 301-217-9277
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Re: How do we like our base kerberos? Will it flee soon?

2010-11-12 Thread Joerg Pulz


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Hash: SHA1


On Fri, 12 Nov 2010, Leon Meßner wrote:


On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 04:22:57PM +0100, Joerg Pulz wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


On Wed, 10 Nov 2010, Leon Meßner wrote:


Hi,

What i didn't try:

- Use the port.


please take a look at ports/152030 and the patches i mentioned in the PR.

With applied ports/152030 and the world patch applied, you should be able
to build a world fully against the security/heimdal port by simply
specifying WITH_KERBEROS_PORT=1 in /etc/src.conf and HEIMDAL_HOME=prefix
(normally /usr/local) in /etc/make.conf.
You should specify WITHOUT_KERBEROS=1 in /etc/src.conf to avoid mess and
confusion with two different heimdal version installed.

Don't forget to install the security/heimdal port first.

Comments are welcome.


Did exactly as told and everything worked fine. Im currently in the
process of rebuilding gssapi dependent software. Will tell if it fixed
my issue.


Hi,

good to hear that everything went fine for you.
If you're using 8.x you should remove some of the leftover kerberos/gssapi 
libraries by yourself as the ObsoleteFiles list is still incomplete in 
8.x and 'make delete-old delete-old-libs' will not remove everything.

E.g.
in /usr/lib and /usr/lib32
libasn1* libgssapi* libhdb* libheimntlm* libhx509*
libkadm5* libkafs5* libkrb5*
in /usr/libexec
kcm

If you're using CURRENT then everything is removed by 'make delete-old 
delete-old-libs'.


Btw.
If you're using security/cyrus-sasl2 with GSSAPI please take a look at 
PR/152071.
If you're using databases/postgresql*-server, net/freeradius(2) or 
security/openssh-portable please take a look at PR/152029.


Kind regards
Joerg

- -- 
The beginning is the most important part of the work.

-Plato
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Re: mergemaster comparing everything.

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 09:40:01AM -0700, Warren Block wrote:
 On Fri, 12 Nov 2010, Leon Me?ner wrote:
 
  is there a trick besides using the rcs funktion of mergemaster to get
  around having to look at every file in /etc for comparison?
  I know there once was a bug in mergemaster but it's closed for a long
  time now.
 ...
  90% of the differences are just in this cvs? tag lines. This is an
  upgrade from 8.1 to -STABLE.
 
 'mergemaster -Ui' helps.

thanks, that helped. Did the default behavior of mergemaster change
somewhere because i didn't have to do this awhile ago (months not
years).

greetings,
Leon
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Re: Tips for installing windows and freeBSD both.. anyone??

2010-11-12 Thread Rob Farmer

On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 23:16, Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com wrote:
 It sounds like in some respects we're violently agreeing with each other.
 On one hand, I think that CLI programs can be great for frequent tasks,
 especially if you have something like the Unix pipeline at your disposal
 to automate complex tasks, and that GUIs have some discoverability
 advantages; on the other hand, you think that GUI programs can be great
 for cases where someone does not want to take the time to learn a better
 way to do something, perhaps because he does not perform the tasks very
 often, but if you do something often enough it might make sense to learn
 a more efficient CLI-based way to do it.

 Another difference in our apparent approaches to this is that I think
 it's a good idea to favor CLI tools when at all reasonable to do so,
 while you seem to think it's a good idea to favor GUI tools when at all
 reasonable to do so.  We agree on the extremes, but not in the middle, in
 other words.  I just wish that we could agree without it feeling like
 you're trying to convince people they shouldn't ever bother learning how
 to use CLI tools unless they absolutely have to.

Well, I think to some extent we are considering two different sets of
people. If a programmer or sysadmin doesn't use the CLI, they probably
aren't very good at their job, since they are missing out on a lot of
tools. I was thinking more generally about end-users, who tend to be
very reluctant to use the CLI (the whole there's a big black box, what
do I do now? thing is intimidating) and it is usually more trouble
than it is worth to convince them to use the CLI, even if it would
make their jobs easier.

Most general computer users will never give up the GUI, because it
involves investing in computer skills and they don't see that as
terribly worthwhile - they just want to get started on their work. I
think some UNIX fans are reluctant to accept this, and in doing so
limit its ability to grow. That's my reason for preferring GUI in most
situations.

-- 
Rob Farmer
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Re: Tips for installing windows and freeBSD both.. anyone??

On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 17:49:26 -0700, Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com wrote:
 On Tue, Nov 09, 2010 at 01:21:01AM -0800, per...@pluto.rain.com wrote:
  Polytropon free...@edvax.de wrote:
  
   The STRENGTH OF GUI (yes, I'm really saying that) is to aid
   using language elements, CLI. Arranging windows, presenting
   information, displaying structures, managing things. GUI
   alone, with no functional substance behind it, is useless.
   Sadly, you'll find more and more programs that have blingbling
   and experience, but are useless to those who want to achieve
   a certain goal with it.
  
  Another strength, potentially large but all-too-frequently
  overlooked entirely, is as a learning aid.  In the situation
  that operations in the GUI map reasonably well to TUI commands
  -- which by definition includes cases in which the GUI is used
  as a front-end to issue commands to an external TUI-based program
  -- the GUI really should have a mode wherein it displays or logs
  the TUI commands that it is performing.
 
 I agree.  That is one type of GUI I would really love to see getting more
 popular.

You can already find this concept in use: The Midnight Commander,
allthough a text-based program (but NOT a CLI program!) integrates
command line and abstracted operations. It has excellent keyboard
AND mouse support.

Another program that comes to my mind is mencoder + gmencoder. The
gmencoder offers a GUI wrapper for the mencoder program. You can
keep using this GUI program for one-time use, or use the mencoder
command line program for scripting.




-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: Tips for installing windows and freeBSD both.. anyone??

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 09:54:57AM -0800, Rob Farmer wrote:
 On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 23:16, Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com wrote:
  It sounds like in some respects we're violently agreeing with each other.
  On one hand, I think that CLI programs can be great for frequent tasks,
  especially if you have something like the Unix pipeline at your disposal
  to automate complex tasks, and that GUIs have some discoverability
  advantages; on the other hand, you think that GUI programs can be great
  for cases where someone does not want to take the time to learn a better
  way to do something, perhaps because he does not perform the tasks very
  often, but if you do something often enough it might make sense to learn
  a more efficient CLI-based way to do it.
 
  Another difference in our apparent approaches to this is that I think
  it's a good idea to favor CLI tools when at all reasonable to do so,
  while you seem to think it's a good idea to favor GUI tools when at all
  reasonable to do so.  We agree on the extremes, but not in the middle, in
  other words.  I just wish that we could agree without it feeling like
  you're trying to convince people they shouldn't ever bother learning how
  to use CLI tools unless they absolutely have to.
 
 Well, I think to some extent we are considering two different sets of
 people. If a programmer or sysadmin doesn't use the CLI, they probably
 aren't very good at their job, since they are missing out on a lot of
 tools. I was thinking more generally about end-users, who tend to be
 very reluctant to use the CLI (the whole there's a big black box, what
 do I do now? thing is intimidating) and it is usually more trouble
 than it is worth to convince them to use the CLI, even if it would
 make their jobs easier.

I was trying to consider *everybody* who uses a computer heavily in
day-to-day life.  Yes, I agree that many end users are very reluctant to
use CLI tools.  I tend to feel, however, that instead of avoiding
mentioning such tools and just steering people toward GUI tools all the
time, it is in everybody's best interest to at least make the benefits of
CLI tools more widely known so that those who could benefit from them
(even if they are reluctant to do so) will know the reasons the option
might be a good one.

Perhaps even more importantly, in cases such as the cited example of
someone who managed to get a business process changed so that it
negatively affected several other workers' efficiency and that of the
business as a whole, such a net loss in productivity might have been
avoided if the decision-makers there were more aware of the potential
benefits of using CLI tools, and of the fact that GUI tools are not
necessarily better just because they're GUI tools.  Middle managers and
executives, even if they never *touch* the CLI tools themselves, need to
be educated about the value of CLI tools for those who perform daily
automation tasks so that they will not ignorantly approve using the wrong
tool for the job, as in the preceding anecdote.

If, because we know them to be reluctant to use CLI tools, we take pains
to never expose decision-makers to knowledge of any benefits of using
tools other than the *wrong* tools for certain jobs, we are essentially
guaranteeing that when the time comes for a decision to be made, the only
decision they will make is the one that makes things worse for us (where
us is the technically inclined workforce that is directly affected by
these decisions) and for the business.


 
 Most general computer users will never give up the GUI, because it
 involves investing in computer skills and they don't see that as
 terribly worthwhile - they just want to get started on their work. I
 think some UNIX fans are reluctant to accept this, and in doing so
 limit its ability to grow. That's my reason for preferring GUI in most
 situations.

Nobody has to give up the GUI.  Even the heavy use of CLI and other TUI
tools in my life tends to be wrapped in a window manager, with occasional
GUI applications scattered throughout.  Even the simple green bar across
the top of my screen (which changes to blue and red when the laptop is
unplugged) that indicates battery life is a GUI application, and I find
it quite valuable for those occasions when I run my laptop without AC
power.

By the way, if you want to see what I mean about that battery life
indicator, a screenshot of the laptop screen with the battery life bar
(provided by sysutils/xbattbar from ports) is available here:

http://blogstrapping.com/img/uzbl/uzbl_browser.png

It's quite thin, and does not show up well in that image, but it is
somewhat more obvious on my laptop display.

Moving on . . .

I'm perfectly willing to accept that some people absolutely refuse to
learn more than the bare minimum to do their jobs, with no concern for
efficiency, productivity, or quality of work beyond a bare minimum.  I do
not think that those who might have a deeper interest in improving their

Re: How do we like our base kerberos? Will it flee soon?

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 06:03:33PM +0100, Joerg Pulz wrote:
 On Fri, 12 Nov 2010, Leon Meßner wrote:
 
  On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 04:22:57PM +0100, Joerg Pulz wrote:
  On Wed, 10 Nov 2010, Leon Meßner wrote:
  Did exactly as told and everything worked fine. Im currently in the
  process of rebuilding gssapi dependent software. Will tell if it fixed
  my issue.
 
 Hi,
 
 good to hear that everything went fine for you.
 If you're using 8.x you should remove some of the leftover kerberos/gssapi 
 libraries by yourself as the ObsoleteFiles list is still incomplete in 
 8.x and 'make delete-old delete-old-libs' will not remove everything.
 E.g.
 in /usr/lib and /usr/lib32
   libasn1* libgssapi* libhdb* libheimntlm* libhx509*
   libkadm5* libkafs5* libkrb5*
 in /usr/libexec
   kcm

It looks like i do also still have the old kerberos tools (kinit,kadmin
etc.) in the base prefix and they do now segfault:

/libexec/ld-elf.so.1: Shared object libkafs5.so.10 not found, required
by kinit

# ls /usr/local/lib/libkafs*
/usr/local/lib/libkafs.a/usr/local/lib/libkafs.la
/usr/local/lib/libkafs.so   /usr/local/lib/libkafs.so.5

 Btw.
 If you're using security/cyrus-sasl2 with GSSAPI please take a look at 
 PR/152071.

Using that. Patch applied and build cleanly. saslauthd starts as
expected.

But i do have some problems now getting tickets. This machine is a
kerberos slave. if i start ipropd-slave with local kdc running i get:

krb5_get_init_creds: Client
(iprop/lise.physik-pool.tu-berlin...@pcpool.physik.tu-berlin.de) unknown

when local kdc is not running authentication works but i get:

ipropd-slave[28610]: connection successful to master:
marie.physik-pool.tu-berlin.de[130.149.58.147]
ipropd-slave[28610]: ipropd-slave started at
version: 10166
ipropd-slave[28610]: db-open:
dbm_open(/var/heimdal/heimdal): Inappropriate file type or format

Which i can understand because the db is at /var/heimdal/heimdal.db
which in turn is correctly specified in /etc/krb5.conf. Are there any
config syntax changes between 0.6.3 and 1.4, so i have to modify my
krb5.conf ?

Thanks,
Leon
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Re: uzbl

On Sun, Nov 07, 2010 at 01:54:32PM -0800, Chip Camden wrote:
 
 How do you start uzbl?  It installed fine for me, but I keep getting core
 dumps when I run it.  There is no 'uzbl' anywhere in the path, so I tried
 'uzbl-browser' and 'uzbl-tabbed'.  For 'uzbl-browser' it brings up the
 initial screen OK, but typing 'fl' crashes it.

I thought I had responded to this, but apparently I had not.  Sorry about
that.

I'm not sure why you are having these problems.  I guess I would suggest
talking to someone in the #uzbl channel on freenode.  When I installed
uzbl, the uzbl-core and uzble-browser commands worked great.  Getting
uzbl-tabbed took a little more doing, because a dependency (py-gtk) was
not yet installed.

By the way, it seems that uzbl-tabbed is a little rudimentary.  It
actually lacks some of uzbl-browser's capabilities, and lacks some basic
stuff you'd expect a tabbed browser to have (like a single command or
click approach to opening a link in a new tab).

-- 
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]


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Re: Tips for installing windows and freeBSD both.. anyone??

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 07:14:38PM +0100, Polytropon wrote:
 On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 17:49:26 -0700, Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com wrote:
  
  I agree.  That is one type of GUI I would really love to see getting more
  popular.
 
 You can already find this concept in use: The Midnight Commander,
 allthough a text-based program (but NOT a CLI program!) integrates
 command line and abstracted operations. It has excellent keyboard
 AND mouse support.
 
 Another program that comes to my mind is mencoder + gmencoder. The
 gmencoder offers a GUI wrapper for the mencoder program. You can
 keep using this GUI program for one-time use, or use the mencoder
 command line program for scripting.

The type of program I specifically meant was the sort of thing that
actually tells the user the command that would perform the same task as
the button-click, so that users of the GUI (or captive interface TUI)
would get to see what is going on behind the scenes and perhaps learn
from it.

-- 
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]


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Description: PGP signature

Can't Detect REALTEK ethernet card

2010-11-12 Thread Luki Bangun Subekti

Hi.. I'm just study about networking using freeBSD..
I installed freeBSD in virtual machine, VMware Workstation. When I set
network configuration, in interfaces option, I can't see Realtek PCI
ethernet card. I just see Intel ethernet card and PPP. I'm using internet by
LAN in my home. DHCP also can't be used. Is there someone know about this
problem?
Thanks.
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Re: Tips for installing windows and freeBSD both.. anyone??

2010-11-12 Thread Michael Grünewald


Hello Rob,

Rob Farmer wrote:

Most general computer users will never give up the GUI, because it
involves investing in computer skills and they don't see that as
terribly worthwhile - they just want to get started on their work. I
think some UNIX fans are reluctant to accept this, and in doing so
limit its ability to grow. That's my reason for preferring GUI in most
situations.


I share your observation of user behaviour, and it is probably 
appropriate:  although there is many _funny_ways to use computers, most 
of us just want to have some work done and GUI sometimes provide a quick 
way to put our hands on it.


But in my opinion, a complete GUI software should also provide some 
command line facilities.  I mean, for instance, a word processing 
software could be shipped with command line tools that could be used to

 * inspect document properties (word count, meta information fields);
 * convert the document to a publishable form such as PostScript;
 * do field replacement for mailings;
and many less elementary treatments could also be useful!  Some software 
comes with a scripting language, but for simple operation and batch 
processing, this may not be so convenient as a command line tool.


This kind of functionnalities could be a bridge from the GUI to the 
command line for some users:  I feel these worlds are so separated, 
while they do not have to.  I sometimes feel that this separation is 
precisely the wall that keep many computer users to develop their 
computer skill, despite they use one all day long.  This ``computer 
illiteracy'' is very dommageable, not only because it makes it hard for 
the average user to learn from more experienced users, but also because 
it let software editors be economically successful while selling 
incomplete, crippled, software.

--
Best regards,
Michael
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Error 1: gpart create -s GPT ad0

2010-11-12 Thread Ivan Klymenko

Hello! People.

I use the alternate installer pc-sysinstall based on FreeBSD
9.0-CURRENT r215176
When you load the virtual machine qemu disk ad0 is determined by:
http://img573.imageshack.us/i/qemu1.png/
but when trying to create a section displays the following error:
http://img80.imageshack.us/i/qemu.png/
Think all options for gpart are correct - what can there be a problem?

Thanks!
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Re: Tips for installing windows and freeBSD both.. anyone??

On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 18:19:34 -0700, Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com wrote:
 In fact, a set of CLI filters linked together by the Unix
 pipeline (or even a DOS pipeline, at least in theory) is essentially
 infinitely extensible to provide surprising levels of automation
 customizability that might astonish the earlier creators of some of the
 older tools being used, while an extension system for a GUI application
 necessarily has to predefine what is possible, and obfuscates the inner
 workings of the extended application behind designs that are largely
 opaque to the user.

From computer science, please see the term fully programmable.



  On the other hand, 99% of GUI apps that handle files have a File 
  Open dialog that is provided via a toolkit and works the same
  everywhere.
 
 . . . and it is shortly after that point that things get very specific,
 and non-general.

True - and non-functional sometimes.

I may give an example: The File  Open... dialog in Gtk 2
has functional limitations (example here: attach a file in
Sylpheed). It doesn't respond to keyboard opreations (except
entering a file name, but [tab] to the next dialog element
does not work). It *FORCES* the user to use the mouse if
he wants to select something from the list. In the list,
there is a HELPing element: typing the beginning of a file
name moves the cursor to that file. Good idea, but bad in
reality, because it doesn't work - as it mixes case: typing
abc brings you to ABC in the list, except YOU want abc
further down. Option: Again using the mouse. Using shell
patterns, e. g. typing *mp3 to have the list field just
contain the MP3 files does not work - the dialog simply
disappears. The same if you enter a directory manually,
e. g. /export/share/mp3 - dialog disappears. If you add
a / at the end, MAYBE it moves to the specified directory,
but shows every file TWICE.

And keep in mind what I said about limitations in using the
copy buffer in an earlier message.

THOSE (!!!) are the limitations of GUI - good ideas that
got implemented that POORly that the final product is
gettimg more and more unusable.

Coming back to your statement: Of course every toolkit does
the File  Open... dialog differently. That is noting bad per
se, as the advocates of GUI consistency get more and more
inconsistency in their own main domain of what they use.
Consistency is not a problem.

The problem is RECOGNITION. If the graphical representation
of an object or an action cannot be recognized as what it IS,
correct what it REFERS TO, all the design is completely useless.

Today's approach is to waste screen space and overcomplicate
things. Icon bars all over the place. Is that user-friendly?
I don't think so.

Limited to the maximum could be a good approach instead.

Allow me to mention GeoWorks Ensemble, a GEOS office suite for
the DOS-based PC. It is a GUI that is based on the Motif toolkit
(that could to things in the early 90s that Windows cannot
even do today, like *real* drag  drop, or detachable menus,
NATIVELY). This system allowed the user to change the complexity
of the GUI. There were 3 (?) levels: beginner, intermediate,
expert. On beginner level, only basic functionalitites were
exposed to the user. On expert level, all functionality was
present. This concept assisted the learning courve development
of the user BY USE of the graphical elements.



 Actually, my understanding was that the problem was someone refused to
 type a simple command, and would rather make a series of seven clicks
 thirty times while babysitting the application, and had no conception of
 the benefits of letting more than one person work in parallel on a given
 task. 

Extend this idea:

If a friend asks me: Erm, I've got a bunch of JPEG images from
my camera, but I need to convert them to PNG; those are 10,000
images. How can I do that?

I write him a mail: Type this in a terminal: cd /where/your/files/are
and then type: for f in *.jpg; do convert $f $f.png; done. That's
all.

If I wanted to assist him the GUI way, I would stop using a
language (the shell's command language in this case) and would
need to draw him pictures - or describe them: First you click
on the blue square, this is either on the left of your desktop,
upper region, or it is on the right. Then there will be a grey
window and a blue window. On top of the grey window, click the
yellow ball. When the ball is jumping into the blue window, a
dancing elephant appears. Click on that. :-) You know what I
mean: I have no idea how to convert a bunch of JPEG files to
PNG per GUI. :-)



 It wasn't the file format that changed; it was someone's tolerance
 for using a keyboard instead of a mouse. 

The preference of tools used also depends HEAVILY on the task.
For entering continuous data (e. g. for a tax software, for
a document generation system, for a listing program), the
keyboard is #1. There just is no way around it, and professionals (!)
will KNOW that it is done that way. For many games, a combination

Re: Tips for installing windows and freeBSD both.. anyone??

On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 18:25:51 -0700, Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com wrote:
 It's too bad such APIs require so much more knowledge, and present so
 much more of a barrier to entry for automating tasks, than a simpler CLI
 filter's interface provides via something like the Unix pipeline.

Any GUI is limited to the use by halfway healthy individuals.
They are a no-go for blind users, for example.


-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: Tips for installing windows and freeBSD both.. anyone??

On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 21:21:51 -0800, Rob Farmer rfar...@predatorlabs.net wrote:
 I'm not saying the CLI is universally bad - if you gain competence
 with a set of programs that you use frequently, it can be very
 efficient. It does make it hard to enter a new area, though - you've
 got to learn some before you can do anything.

When entering WHICH field new to you this is different?

Repeat after me: Computers. Are. Not. Easy. :-)



 That can pay off, if you
 keep using that program, but if it is a one-off or occasional thing
 (like the svn tagging example earlier in this thread), it's probably
 not worthwhile.

That's not fully true, as you may have learned something new and
usable aside, which you may use in a different setting where you
can remember it.

I may give a very individual example: I've been reading about the
shell's ability to use built-in field splitting (see the section
Parameter Expansion in man sh); I didn't need that when I
was reading that text, but KNOWING that this was possible (and
remembering where I read it) recently helped me.

Those side-effects of learning are sometimes MORE IMPORTANT than
the lesson learned in the end (allthough my example may not have
been a good illustration for that, but I think you got the idea).

What you learn by learning? An important question. You learn to
think, to read, to conclude; to combine, to separate, to filter,
to judge; to abstract, to specify; to express.



 While you argue that it increases flexibility, which
 is true in some ways, it also decreases flexibility by limiting me to
 the programs I know or am willing to read documentation for.

Understandable. You have to decide what to spend time on - BEFORE
spending that time, as when you're done, it's too late. :-)

The side-effects of learning processes may help you to evaluate
the neccessarity or the benefits of using X over Y, reading Z
instead of nothing, or doing trial  error. The more you learn,
the more you know, your considerations may change.



 I never
 read documentation for GUI programs 

This is because there is no documentation for them. :-)



 - I jump right in and look through
 the menus to find what I need or realize the program isn't adequate
 and move on.

One of my professors once said: Trial  error is NOT a programming
concept! :-)

The more complex the task gets, the more costly it can be to
do that kind of trial  error (chasing throgh menues, dialog
boxes, windows, icons and items). It can even be that you need
more time to find out that the result you got from a GUI program
that you ASSUMED to do the job properly is pure garbage - and
you invested hours on clicking into that program, just to have
a big file of crap in the end.

Well-documented (!) CLI programs tend to state much better what
a program is capable of.

The ability of EXCHANGE of programs for testing is also a strength
of the CLI that does not have something corresponding in GUI land.
If you want to see if GUI programs G1, G2 and G3 do the job you
want, you need to perform the job THREE TIMES - once per program.
For CLI programs C1, C2 and C3, you just go

for PROG in C1 C2 C3; do $PROG  infile  outfile.$PROG.txt; done

and have the COMPUTER do that - NOT ***YOU***.



-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: mergemaster comparing everything.


On Fri, 12 Nov 2010, Leon Me?ner wrote:


On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 09:40:01AM -0700, Warren Block wrote:

On Fri, 12 Nov 2010, Leon Me?ner wrote:


is there a trick besides using the rcs funktion of mergemaster to get
around having to look at every file in /etc for comparison?
I know there once was a bug in mergemaster but it's closed for a long
time now.

...

90% of the differences are just in this cvs? tag lines. This is an
upgrade from 8.1 to -STABLE.


'mergemaster -Ui' helps.


thanks, that helped. Did the default behavior of mergemaster change
somewhere because i didn't have to do this awhile ago (months not
years).


Not AFAIK, but I've been using -Ui for quite a while, so maybe I just 
missed it.

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Re: mergemaster comparing everything.

2010-11-12 Thread Rob Farmer

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 09:04, Leon Meßner
l.mess...@physik.tu-berlin.de wrote:
 On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 09:40:01AM -0700, Warren Block wrote:
 On Fri, 12 Nov 2010, Leon Me?ner wrote:

  is there a trick besides using the rcs funktion of mergemaster to get
  around having to look at every file in /etc for comparison?
  I know there once was a bug in mergemaster but it's closed for a long
  time now.
 ...
  90% of the differences are just in this cvs? tag lines. This is an
  upgrade from 8.1 to -STABLE.

 'mergemaster -Ui' helps.

 thanks, that helped. Did the default behavior of mergemaster change
 somewhere because i didn't have to do this awhile ago (months not
 years).

The problem is the svn to cvs exporter doesn't properly tag the
existing revisions for releases, but rather checks in a brand new
revision and tags that. So, when you switch branches (such as release
to stable) with CVS, all the $FreeBSD$ tags change, and you get the
false positives in mergemaster.

Using your example (etc/periodic/daily/300.calendar), there is:
1.5.36.1.4.1 for RELENG_8_1
1.5.36.1 for RELENG_8
1.5 for MAIN (current)

There are many more 1.5.x revisions for other branches. These
shouldn't exist - the file hasn't changed since 2000 and 1.5 should
just be tagged with for all releases since then.

-- 
Rob Farmer
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Re: Xorg support for adding a graphics card


On Fri, 12 Nov 2010, d...@safeport.com wrote:


Thanks. The [latest] BIOS has one VGA option:

  Video DAC Snoop Controls how VGA and graphics devices on the PCI or AGP
  bus respond to palette register accesses.

   * On  - forces VGA and graphics devices to snoop VGA palette register
   accesses and forward them to the ISA bus.
   * Off - (the default) forces VGA and graphics devices to respond
   positively to palette register accesses.


Is there a Init Graphics Card First that can be set to AGP/PCI?  That 
would let the preferred card be seen first.  Still only one card.  I 
don't know what's needed for multi-card xorg support on FreeBSD, but I 
suspect it won't happen soon.

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Re: Tips for installing windows and freeBSD both.. anyone??

On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 11:23:22 -0700, Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com wrote:
 The type of program I specifically meant was the sort of thing that
 actually tells the user the command that would perform the same task as
 the button-click, so that users of the GUI (or captive interface TUI)
 would get to see what is going on behind the scenes and perhaps learn
 from it.

Ah, I see. I've in fact wirtten such a wrapper program around
the pw program - a set of input fields to define input data
(command line parameters) to pw, and a composited field that
would contain the resulting command. If the wrapper did miss
a function, you could access this final command field and also
edit it. Depending on which options you had set, the command
in that field would change. The GUI wrapper also gave a short
explaination of the options used.

Sadly, this concept is usually NOT employed by GUI programs
because their programmers think about their way as the only
way existing. So if my image viewer allows you to resize
and convert ONE picture, why should it show you how to do
that with an arbitrary amount of pictures? :-)


-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: Can't Detect REALTEK ethernet card


On Sat, 13 Nov 2010, Luki Bangun Subekti wrote:


Hi.. I'm just study about networking using freeBSD..
I installed freeBSD in virtual machine, VMware Workstation. When I set
network configuration, in interfaces option, I can't see Realtek PCI
ethernet card. I just see Intel ethernet card and PPP. I'm using internet by
LAN in my home. DHCP also can't be used. Is there someone know about this
problem?


The virtual environment provides a virtual network card.  That's likely 
the Intel card you see.  There may be settings you need to make in the 
VM software to provide NAT or bridged networking to the virtual card. 
Once that's set, your FreeBSD VM can use that virtual card as if it were 
real.


See 
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/virtualization-guest.html


The emulation@ mailing list may provide better answers.
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Re: Tips for installing windows and freeBSD both.. anyone??

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 07:35:51PM +0100, Michael Grünewald wrote:
 
 But in my opinion, a complete GUI software should also provide some 
 command line facilities.  I mean, for instance, a word processing 
 software could be shipped with command line tools that could be used to
  * inspect document properties (word count, meta information fields);
  * convert the document to a publishable form such as PostScript;
  * do field replacement for mailings;
 and many less elementary treatments could also be useful!  Some software 
 comes with a scripting language, but for simple operation and batch 
 processing, this may not be so convenient as a command line tool.

The easy way to do that would probably be to write things as
single-purpose libraries with command line interfaces, then write GUI
interfaces that use those libraries.  Failing that, just write command
line tools and write GUIs that use those tools on the back end; writing
them as libraries with command line interfaces is not *entirely*
necessary.

In addition to being the easy way, I'd say it's the *right* way to do
it as well.  That way, someone who *just* wants the functionality of one
or two CLI utilities, and not all the functionality of some bloated GUI
all-in-one application, can get the parts independently.

Last I checked, I think K3b uses cdrdao, cdrtools, and growisofs on the
back end, with the GUI just an interface layer over the top of those
tools.  While I'm not a fan of things being tied into a set of DE
libraries for applications I actually use, at least the basic premise of
composing GUI tools from CLI tools is well used in this case.  At least
two of those three CLI tools are also actually composed of several
smaller CLI tools, themselves.

-- 
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]


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Re: Why do you use a devil as a mascot?

2010-11-12 Thread Jerry McAllister

On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 09:36:29PM -0500, Alejandro Imass wrote:

 On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 9:28 PM, Neal Hogan nealho...@gmail.com wrote:
  -- Forwarded message --
  From: José Silveira jmlsilve...@gmail.com
  Date: 2010/11/11
  Subject: Re: Why do you use a devil as a mascot?
  To: Neal Hogan nealho...@gmail.com

  What an absurd! A guy makes a question and an stupid like you send me
  this crap! I hope freebsd explodes!

 First, please don't top-post.
 Second, stop feeding the trolls. We souldn't be falling for this crap
 once again.
 Third, if you don't like FreeBSD and want it to explode, please just leave.

Lots of people see FreeBSD and the web site and the mascott, etc for
the first time probably each day.Some of them will have the same
mistaken idea since the misunderstanding of it is implanted in people's
heads from an early age.Although you may get tired of hearing that
same old argument again and again, I do, it does not automatically make a 
person a troll if they ask the question.

The intelligent thing is to give a reasonable answer and point the person
to some web pages where they can become informed and then ignore it.
If they make useful use of the information, they are not a troll, just
someone needing information.   If they want to add tricky new twists
to keep the thing going, then they probably are a troll and ignoring
additional responses becomes even more important.

So, if you want other prople to use their intelligence, then practice
using yours.

jerry

  2010/11/12 Neal Hogan nealho...@gmail.com

  2010/11/11 Neal Hogan nealho...@gmail.com:
   2010/11/11 José Silveira jmlsilve...@gmail.com:
   Why do you use a devil as a mascot?

   For me it is nonsense... It makes Christians, Jwishes and Muslins run 
   away!

   Is this better?

  (sorry) http://www.openbsd.org/art/newhead.jpg
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Re: Tips for installing windows and freeBSD both.. anyone??

2010-11-12 Thread Rob Farmer

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 11:06, Polytropon free...@edvax.de wrote:
 On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 21:21:51 -0800, Rob Farmer rfar...@predatorlabs.net 
 wrote:
 I'm not saying the CLI is universally bad - if you gain competence
 with a set of programs that you use frequently, it can be very
 efficient. It does make it hard to enter a new area, though - you've
 got to learn some before you can do anything.

 When entering WHICH field new to you this is different?

 Repeat after me: Computers. Are. Not. Easy. :-)

None - but people don't feel like they are entering a new field.
Everyone uses computers - public schools have spent massive amounts of
money to start kids using computers at 5 or 6 years old, if they
haven't already at home.

So the discussion isn't framed as learning something new - its why
should we change the way everyone has been working for years?

To use a US example, you see the same thing with the SI/metric system.
Scientists and other technical people use it almost universally
without issue (except for some oddities, PSI is somewhat popular) - it
is better for real/serious work, but the general public doesn't see it
as new or valuable - its just a stupid change in the way everything
has always been done.

-- 
Rob Farmer
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Re: Why do you use a devil as a mascot?

2010-11-12 Thread Jerry McAllister

On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 07:26:17PM -0600, Neal Hogan wrote:

 On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 6:53 PM, Gary Gatten ggat...@waddell.com wrote:
  PLEASE let's not rehash this again!!!
 
 
 I'm only sending the link to the haloed (sp?) daemon now because I
 wish I had last time but f'd it up.
 I'm done now . . . I just thought that those who are offended by
 evil daemons would appreciate the holy ones.

  (sorry) http://www.openbsd.org/art/newhead.jpg

I like this one.   
It continues the tongue firmly in the cheek sense of the whole BSDie thing.
Thanks for posting it.

jerry


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Re: Tips for installing windows and freeBSD both.. anyone??

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 07:49:51PM +0100, Polytropon wrote:
 
 The primary REFUSE to use the keyboard because the mouse EXISTS
 prevents lazy users even from READING that 3x5 card. They are
 often not WILLING to follow instructions, no matter how simple
 (or even idiotic, sorry) they may be. In worst case, they expect
 YOU to come over and DO THEIR WORK.
 
 This leads to the misbelief that things which AREN'T easy are
 easy - because someone else does them. :-)

This sounds a bit like a common problem with people thinking that
Unix-like OSes are not user friendly because they're hard to install,
a frequent protestations of people who like MS Windows because it comes
already installed on their computers, and that they think is easy to
install because of the recovery partition that resets the system to
factory settings.  Comparing this with installing from scratch is an
apples and orange comparison.


 
 Web browsing IS a majority, for example. A well-designed web
 browser could benefit both the average and the professional
 user. Let's say this ideal browser requires a bit of learning,
 maybe some reading. The professional will do that, and he will
 master this new program and productively use it. The average
 user will refuse to read in the first place, and resist to use
 something different. There's a big aversion against anything
 that is not like mine.

Web browsing is a majority of *time* spent, but it is only one task in
and of itself.  As such, it only increments the minority number of tasks
that really do better in the GUI by 1.

Actually, with the amount of Web browsing people do, the default GUI
approach to using a browser is incredibly inefficient.  Some people begin
to get beyond that when they start learning the rudiments of driving an
interface via the keyboard, using the keybindings for the specific
browser they use -- such as Ctrl+L to get to the address bar, typing a
word like blogstrapping there, and hitting Ctrl+Enter to automatically
add a www. in front of that word and .com after it then load the page
at the other end of that resulting www.blogstrapping.com URL.

Most of them never realize the significant efficiency benefits that could
be realized by spending fifteen minutes (at most) learning the basic
interface of something like the Vimperator extension for Firefox, or how
to use a natively keyboard-driven browser like uzbl.  True, these are
still essentially GUI tools in many respects, but with those keyboard
driven interfaces they effectively become CLI/GUI hybrids, using commands
to control a graphical display.  In even the most GUI-oriented tasks, I
tend to find that at least some hybridizing with a CLI approach results
in a massive efficiency and productivity improvement.


 
 That's what I always tell them: I couldn't do that Magic from the
 beginning, I had to invest time and exercise - that's why I'm so very
 expensive :-) - in order to master those tools. But ***YOU*** are free
 to learn those tools, too.

Good.  A principle I apply to my own consulting work, which is relevant
is this:

A true professional works toward the day when he is no longer
necessary.

I've come up with a number of different formulations of that concept over
the years, but the basic premise and principle remains constant.
Empowering clients is much more rewarding as a career path than training
them to be unhealthily dependent upon me.

-- 
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]


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Re: Tips for installing windows and freeBSD both.. anyone??

On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 11:33:38 -0800, Rob Farmer rfar...@predatorlabs.net wrote:
 On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 11:06, Polytropon free...@edvax.de wrote:
  On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 21:21:51 -0800, Rob Farmer rfar...@predatorlabs.net 
  wrote:
  I'm not saying the CLI is universally bad - if you gain competence
  with a set of programs that you use frequently, it can be very
  efficient. It does make it hard to enter a new area, though - you've
  got to learn some before you can do anything.
 
  When entering WHICH field new to you this is different?
 
  Repeat after me: Computers. Are. Not. Easy. :-)
 
 None - but people don't feel like they are entering a new field.

Hey, I was just kidding. :-)

Computers and HOW we INTERACT with them have come a long way.
The more BASIC your skills are, the better you can mater
complex tasks - the tasks that are impossible to solve for
the self-proclaimed dynamical long-legged elastic group-oriented
program manangers. :-)



 Everyone uses computers - public schools have spent massive amounts of
 money to start kids using computers at 5 or 6 years old, if they
 haven't already at home.

Early indoctrination is the best. When the basics are learned,
it's very easy to introduce misbeliefs, musts and strange
concepts (or their absence at all). Schools are the ideal place
for that.

Using a computer and KNOWING about a computer are different
things. As a car driver, I don't have to exactly know how the
car works in every detail. Still I have to know the rules that
apply in traffic. I need to have a driving license that states
that I know - or I won't be able to participate in traffic.
I'm just mentioning this as people do like car analogies. :-)

What I want to say is that: Using the computer in a trial  error
manner may be sufficient for some jobs, but even animals can be
more clever than that. They even think before they act. School
has done a good job convincing children to switch off their
brain when switching on the computer. You can see the absence
of common sense nearly everywhere where computers are in regular
use. Don't force me to give examples. :-)



 So the discussion isn't framed as learning something new - its why
 should we change the way everyone has been working for years?

Because your assumption is wrong. Why should we change it? No,
we should not change it. The question is: WHO should change it,
and WHY. Let me answer quickly: Those who need to do serious
work (=who), because their money and therefore their future
depends on it (=why).



 To use a US example, you see the same thing with the SI/metric system.
 Scientists and other technical people use it almost universally
 without issue (except for some oddities, PSI is somewhat popular) - it
 is better for real/serious work, but the general public doesn't see it
 as new or valuable - its just a stupid change in the way everything
 has always been done.

Exchange always to for a long time (which may be less than
a man's life span for computer related topics).

If you emphasize the Where's the benefit? approach, just see
what incompatibility and misunderstandings can create in DIFFICULT
situations. When terminonoly isn't used properly, when people
can't even express what they need - why? Because they never
learned the WORDS that are needed. Our spoken and written language
heavily relies on words and how we use them. Words are a domain
of CLI, natively, while GUI operates on pictures, images, symbols.
Of course symboles are also a kind of language, but this language
is often much harder to learn.

The circle closes: When scholar education didn't provide the
basics of language, how can an individual be able to use a system
that depends on language (when this individual has only learned
to chose from a predefined set of options)?

Seeing things as new can be a great accelleration in promoting
changes. People want new, because their friends have new, or
the neighbor has better. Using this approach, together with the
mechanisms of advertising that control the market, people can be
forced to DO anything, BUY anything, BELIEVE anything - and those
people even believe they are choosing freely.

To adopt that concept to the consideration GUI vs. CLI, or how
good is _this_ GUI, advertising dictates how people think about
the whole topic. A shiny application window, dancing elephants,
lots of blingbling, stylish animations and sounds can make them
really forget about what has been their primary interest: to use
the PC in order to get a JOB DONE. Entertainment ia a magic
word you often see here, as well as experience. It depends on
the individidual state of mind what a person enjoys as enter-
taining or experiencing. A video game can do that, as well
as a book.

I may use an example from psychiatry: In the past we had patients 
who suffered from pathological gambling. They sat infront of
one-armed bandits and were putting all their money (as well as
NOT their money) into the slot machine. More and more, day after
day. The

Re: Tips for installing windows and freeBSD both.. anyone??

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 11:33:38AM -0800, Rob Farmer wrote:
 
 To use a US example, you see the same thing with the SI/metric system.
 Scientists and other technical people use it almost universally
 without issue (except for some oddities, PSI is somewhat popular) - it
 is better for real/serious work, but the general public doesn't see it
 as new or valuable - its just a stupid change in the way everything
 has always been done.

The military uses metric measures as well.  Ranges are measured in
meters, not feet or yards, for instance.  Distances for travel are
typically measured in kilometers (aka klicks).

The fact that the general public in the US has thus far largely resisted
the use of metric measures is in no way evidence that their use should
not be encouraged, however.

-- 
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]


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Re: Tips for installing windows and freeBSD both.. anyone??

On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 12:47:32 -0700, Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com wrote:
 This sounds a bit like a common problem with people thinking that
 Unix-like OSes are not user friendly because they're hard to install,
 a frequent protestations of people who like MS Windows because it comes
 already installed on their computers, and that they think is easy to
 install because of the recovery partition that resets the system to
 factory settings. 

No. Windows is easy to install because someone else does it. :-)
What, on the other hand, is not user friendly when everything
you have to do is to follow the instructions on screen?



 Comparing this with installing from scratch is an
 apples and orange comparison.

That's true of course. See a professional IT person that does
NOT have Windows knowledge it may also be complicated to
install Windows as he can't say from the (wrongly) used
terminology what the installer wants.

A sidenote from the german point of view: Windows installs
require the user to press the input key (Eingabetaste), which
refers to Enter, Return, or arrow down and left. This is too
complicated for the average user as he does NOT know where the
input key is on the keyboard. (I've seen that one many times
already.)



 Actually, with the amount of Web browsing people do, the default GUI
 approach to using a browser is incredibly inefficient.  Some people begin
 to get beyond that when they start learning the rudiments of driving an
 interface via the keyboard, using the keybindings for the specific
 browser they use -- such as Ctrl+L to get to the address bar, typing a
 word like blogstrapping there, and hitting Ctrl+Enter to automatically
 add a www. in front of that word and .com after it then load the page
 at the other end of that resulting www.blogstrapping.com URL.

That's not how average users do it. They first enter google's URI,
then enter the URI they want to access in the google search field
and finally click on the first restult - tadaa! :-)

Many users are not familiar with the browser they are using.
The functionality used contains address entry, bookmarks, and
File  Print. Did I leave out page navigation (back, forward)?
Yes, I did. This seems to be the reason many web pages do
implement that THEIRSELVES - read: the web page contains some
functionality of the web browser. Advantage: can run in full-
screen; disadvantage: adds complexity advanced users are not
interested in.



 Most of them never realize the significant efficiency benefits that could
 be realized by spending fifteen minutes (at most) learning the basic
 interface of something like the Vimperator extension for Firefox, or how
 to use a natively keyboard-driven browser like uzbl. 

Don't miss the integration of keyboard AND mouse - this is also
very useful for desktop opreations, as game developers have already
recognized this and adopted - often requiring a mouse with 16
buttons. :-)



 True, these are
 still essentially GUI tools in many respects, but with those keyboard
 driven interfaces they effectively become CLI/GUI hybrids, using commands
 to control a graphical display.  In even the most GUI-oriented tasks, I
 tend to find that at least some hybridizing with a CLI approach results
 in a massive efficiency and productivity improvement.

I've seen this when talking to a professional video editor: She
mostly used the (differently colored) keys of the keyboard to
perform the main operations, only very few times the mouse was
used. This made her work look like Magic and Voodoo at the same
time - for ME, a keyboard guy. :-)



 Good.  A principle I apply to my own consulting work, which is relevant
 is this:
 
 A true professional works toward the day when he is no longer
 necessary.

But when he is not needed, who pays him? ;-)

You are right: The professional should concentrate on the complicated,
interesting tasks that require his fast mind, his creativity and his
knowledge, while leaving monotonous tasks to others (e. g. baby-
sitting users to click on this, on that, and reboot). The more
GUI is in the game, the more a professional seems to be required
to dumb himself down to aid the novice users (who do not want
to read or learn something), finally resulting in HIM doing THEIR
work. That just cannot be.



 Empowering clients is much more rewarding as a career path than training
 them to be unhealthily dependent upon me.

That's true. I'm always happy when I can talk to customers who
tell me: I'm not frightened of the keyboard. In fact, I want
you do make the program react on keyboard input as I have to
enter LOTS of numbers continuously, and I want to be able to
automate certain things so I don't have to do that manually for
every of my clients. When I then see that people actually have
learned things, I see them being more professional - leading
to being more happy, as they have less work to do (because they
are now ABLE to DELEGATE this work to the computer). Thanks
you showed me that terminal

Re: Tips for installing windows and freeBSD both.. anyone??

2010-11-12 Thread Peter A. Giessel


On 2010/11/12 at 10:33, rfar...@predatorlabs.net (Rob Farmer) wrote:


Scientists and other technical people use it almost universally
without issue (except for some oddities, PSI is somewhat popular)


Would you consider engineers technical people?

One example would be the American Association of State Highway
Transportation Officials (AASHTO) LRFD Bridge Design Specification.
They have discontinued the SI Units version as nobody was using 
it or

buying it.  I would disagree with you assessment that technical people
almost universally use SI.


it is better for real/serious work, but the general public doesn't see
it as new or valuable - its just a stupid change in the way everything
has always been done.


It depends on what you mean by real serious work.  Try 
ordering a
cubic meter of concrete or a #25 rebar in the U.S. and see how 
far you

get.

There is no universal solution to any technical problem.  Each solution
will suit some people's needs and aggravate other people.  That 
is the

beauty of something like FreeBSD, you can customize it to your needs.
If you aren't willing to do that, there are several other OSs out
there that do not offer the same level of customization that may be
better suited for a particular purpose/user.

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Re: Tips for installing windows and freeBSD both.. anyone??

Quoth Chad Perrin on Friday, 12 November 2010:
 On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 11:33:38AM -0800, Rob Farmer wrote:
  
  To use a US example, you see the same thing with the SI/metric system.
  Scientists and other technical people use it almost universally
  without issue (except for some oddities, PSI is somewhat popular) - it
  is better for real/serious work, but the general public doesn't see it
  as new or valuable - its just a stupid change in the way everything
  has always been done.
 
 The military uses metric measures as well.  Ranges are measured in
 meters, not feet or yards, for instance.  Distances for travel are
 typically measured in kilometers (aka klicks).
 
 The fact that the general public in the US has thus far largely resisted
 the use of metric measures is in no way evidence that their use should
 not be encouraged, however.
 
 -- 
 Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]


I'm sure plenty of people resisted giving up measurements using the cubit and 
parasang.

-- 
Sterling (Chip) Camden| sterl...@camdensoftware.com | 2048D/3A978E4F
http://camdensoftware.com | http://chipstips.com| http://chipsquips.com


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Re: uzbl

Quoth Chad Perrin on Friday, 12 November 2010:
 On Sun, Nov 07, 2010 at 01:54:32PM -0800, Chip Camden wrote:
  
  How do you start uzbl?  It installed fine for me, but I keep getting core
  dumps when I run it.  There is no 'uzbl' anywhere in the path, so I tried
  'uzbl-browser' and 'uzbl-tabbed'.  For 'uzbl-browser' it brings up the
  initial screen OK, but typing 'fl' crashes it.
 
 I thought I had responded to this, but apparently I had not.  Sorry about
 that.
 
 I'm not sure why you are having these problems.  I guess I would suggest
 talking to someone in the #uzbl channel on freenode.  When I installed
 uzbl, the uzbl-core and uzble-browser commands worked great.  Getting
 uzbl-tabbed took a little more doing, because a dependency (py-gtk) was
 not yet installed.
 
 By the way, it seems that uzbl-tabbed is a little rudimentary.  It
 actually lacks some of uzbl-browser's capabilities, and lacks some basic
 stuff you'd expect a tabbed browser to have (like a single command or
 click approach to opening a link in a new tab).
 
 -- 
 Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]


Thanks for the response.  When I get some time, I'll figure out what's
going on here and let you know.

-- 
Sterling (Chip) Camden| sterl...@camdensoftware.com | 2048D/3A978E4F
http://camdensoftware.com | http://chipstips.com| http://chipsquips.com


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Re: Tips for installing windows and freeBSD both.. anyone??

2010-11-12 Thread Jerry

On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 11:24:09 -0900
Peter A. Giessel pgies...@mac.com articulated:

 It depends on what you mean by real serious work.  Try 
 ordering a
 cubic meter of concrete or a #25 rebar in the U.S. and see how 
 far you
 get.

Seriously, does everyone in this tread suffer from ADHD (Attention
deficit hyperactivity disorder). The attention span here is pathetic.
We start out with a some question regarding installing Windows 
FreeBSD and have through some convoluted path ending up at ordering
concrete.

BTW, was that for ASTM A497 rebar?

So, to answer the OP's question, try a Windows forum. Perhaps someone
there could assist you without going off on a tangent.

-- 
Jerry ✌
freebsd.u...@seibercom.net

Disclaimer: off-list followups get on-list replies or get ignored.
Please do not ignore the Reply-To header.
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Re: Xorg support for adding a graphics card

2010-11-12 Thread doug


On Fri, 12 Nov 2010, Warren Block wrote:


On Fri, 12 Nov 2010, d...@safeport.com wrote:


Thanks. The [latest] BIOS has one VGA option:

  Video DAC Snoop Controls how VGA and graphics devices on the PCI or AGP
  bus respond to palette register accesses.

   * On  - forces VGA and graphics devices to snoop VGA palette register
   accesses and forward them to the ISA bus.
   * Off - (the default) forces VGA and graphics devices to respond
   positively to palette register accesses.


Is there a Init Graphics Card First that can be set to AGP/PCI?  That would 
let the preferred card be seen first.  Still only one card.  I don't know 
what's needed for multi-card xorg support on FreeBSD, but I suspect it won't 
happen soon.


No such option. I would go back to 7.3 except I did not save various packages 
and it would take several months to compile what I have :) thanks for the 
thought.





_
Douglas Denault
http://www.safeport.com
d...@safeport.com
Voice: 301-217-9220
  Fax: 301-217-9277
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Re: Why do you use a devil as a mascot?

2010-11-12 Thread Tom Worster

On 11/12/10 2:29 PM, Jerry McAllister jerr...@msu.edu wrote:

Lots of people see FreeBSD and the web site and the mascott, etc for
the first time probably each day.Some of them will have the same
mistaken idea since the misunderstanding of it is implanted in people's
heads from an early age.Although you may get tired of hearing that
same old argument again and again, I do, it does not automatically make a
person a troll if they ask the question.

Hmm.

It is inconsiderate and lazy to ask someone else to answer a question
without making any effort to answer it yourself first. The misdeed is
multiplied when the culprit asks hundreds of people in a discussion group
such as this. That's why it is often considered a violation of etiquette.
The fact that lmgtfy.com and 'RTFM' are both well know suggests that this
is not a fringe opinion.


The intelligent thing is to give a reasonable answer and point the person
to some web pages where they can become informed and then ignore it.

I would describe that as the indulgent thing, not the intelligent thing.


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Re: Why do you use a devil as a mascot?

2010-11-12 Thread Jerry McAllister

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 05:15:37PM -0500, Tom Worster wrote:

 On 11/12/10 2:29 PM, Jerry McAllister jerr...@msu.edu wrote:
 
 Lots of people see FreeBSD and the web site and the mascott, etc for
 the first time probably each day.Some of them will have the same
 mistaken idea since the misunderstanding of it is implanted in people's
 heads from an early age.Although you may get tired of hearing that
 same old argument again and again, I do, it does not automatically make a
 person a troll if they ask the question.
 
 Hmm.
 
 It is inconsiderate and lazy to ask someone else to answer a question
 without making any effort to answer it yourself first. The misdeed is
 multiplied when the culprit asks hundreds of people in a discussion group
 such as this. That's why it is often considered a violation of etiquette.
 The fact that lmgtfy.com and 'RTFM' are both well know suggests that this
 is not a fringe opinion.

You expect a newbie to know it all.   
That is inconsiderate and lazy.
You started somewhere, so does everyone else.



 
 
 The intelligent thing is to give a reasonable answer and point the person
 to some web pages where they can become informed and then ignore it.
 
 I would describe that as the indulgent thing, not the intelligent thing.
 

You would have starved before now if other people had your attitude.

jerry   
  
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Re: Why do you use a devil as a mascot?

2010-11-12 Thread Alejandro Imass

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 5:15 PM, Tom Worster f...@thefsb.org wrote:
 On 11/12/10 2:29 PM, Jerry McAllister jerr...@msu.edu wrote:

Lots of people see FreeBSD and the web site and the mascott, etc for
the first time probably each day.    Some of them will have the same
mistaken idea since the misunderstanding of it is implanted in people's
heads from an early age.    Although you may get tired of hearing that
same old argument again and again, I do, it does not automatically make a
person a troll if they ask the question.

 Hmm.

 It is inconsiderate and lazy to ask someone else to answer a question
 without making any effort to answer it yourself first. The misdeed is
 multiplied when the culprit asks hundreds of people in a discussion group
 such as this. That's why it is often considered a violation of etiquette.
 The fact that lmgtfy.com and 'RTFM' are both well know suggests that this
 is not a fringe opinion.


The intelligent thing is to give a reasonable answer and point the person
to some web pages where they can become informed and then ignore it.

 I would describe that as the indulgent thing, not the intelligent thing.



Thanks Tom, I was beginning to think no one else cared about such
netiquette, and I just opted to let it go. Nevertheless, now that you
brought this up, I would like to point a couple of more things out to
Jerry:

The _intelligent_ thing to do is to actually read before blabbering
here about some religious crap.

When the OP signed up to this list he must have read this:

http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/eresources.html#ERESOURCES-MAIL

Where things like the following are very clearly stated:

When in doubt about what list to post a question to, see How to get
best results from the FreeBSD-questions mailing list.
Which points to this:
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/freebsd-questions/

Before posting to any list, please learn about how to best use the
mailing lists, such as how to help avoid frequently-repeated
discussions, by reading the Mailing List Frequently Asked Questions
(FAQ) document.
Which points to this:
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/mailing-list-faq/

And in almost all these places there are links to the netiquette,
recommendations on how to search before you post and tons of
information on how to correctly interact with these mailing lists.

Ignorantia legis neminem excusat

Cheers,
Alex
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glibc-2.4

I've got a freebsd7.3 box running on an old VAIO PIII. For the most part
Ziggy chugs along quite well as my backup internal webserver and dns slave.

uname -a - FreeBSD ziggy.xaerolimit.net 7.3-RELEASE-p3 FreeBSD
7.3-RELEASE-p3 #8: Sun Oct 24 01:53:03 EDT 2010
r...@ziggy.xaerolimit.net:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/ZIGGY  i386

This evening I was fixing the very old s...@home client that the machine has
been chugging with for like 5 years now. The machine started out as a
FreeBSD5 install and has been progressively upgraded over the years to it's
current incarnate. While trying to use the client from this (
http://boinc.berkeley.edu/dl/boinc_6.10.58_i686-pc-linux-gnu.sh) I get the
following error

[s...@ziggy ~]$ ./BOINC/run_client --attach_project
http://setiathome.berkeley.edu be1dc44b8692b798473781a73c1944b7 --daemon
./boinc: /lib/obsolete/linuxthreads/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.4' not found
(required by ./boinc)
[s...@ziggy ~]$


Incidentally, the same exact i686 binary works just fine on my FBSD64-8.1
laptop ... so what gives? I don't remember seeing a readily available GLIBC
solution in ports.


Did you know...

If you play a Windows 2000 CD backwards, you hear satanic messages,
but what's worse is when you play it forward
  ...it installs Windows 2000

   -- Alfred Perlstein on chat at freebsd.org
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Re: Why do you use a devil as a mascot?

2010-11-12 Thread Alejandro Imass

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 5:38 PM, Jerry McAllister jerr...@msu.edu wrote:
 On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 05:15:37PM -0500, Tom Worster wrote:

 On 11/12/10 2:29 PM, Jerry McAllister jerr...@msu.edu wrote:

[...]

 You expect a newbie to know it all.
 That is inconsiderate and lazy.
 You started somewhere, so does everyone else.


True. But when you join an existing community you _should_ be just a
bit more prudent don't you think?
Furthermore, I think we all have screwed up more than once and have
had our good share of rudeness, and have dealt with it.
The bad thing IMO is to continue to attack like the OP did after
realizing his comment was not very welcome.





 The intelligent thing is to give a reasonable answer and point the person
 to some web pages where they can become informed and then ignore it.

 I would describe that as the indulgent thing, not the intelligent thing.


 You would have starved before now if other people had your attitude.


I can't make out what you are trying to say here, but Tom's attitude
is in fact the correct one. Is the well-accepted way of doing things
in the hacker world, and very true, it's not for everyone.

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Alex

 jerry

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Fwd: Why do you use a devil as a mascot?

2010-11-12 Thread Neal Hogan

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 4:43 PM, Alejandro Imass a...@p2ee.org wrote:
On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 5:15 PM, Tom Worster f...@thefsb.org wrote:
On 11/12/10 2:29 PM, Jerry McAllister jerr...@msu.edu wrote:

Lots of people see FreeBSD and the web site and the mascott, etc for
the first time probably each day. Some of them will have the same
mistaken idea since the misunderstanding of it is implanted in people's
heads from an early age. Although you may get tired of hearing that
same old argument again and again, I do, it does not automatically make a
person a troll if they ask the question.

Hmm.

It is inconsiderate and lazy to ask someone else to answer a question
without making any effort to answer it yourself first. The misdeed is
multiplied when the culprit asks hundreds of people in a discussion group
such as this. That's why it is often considered a violation of etiquette.
The fact that lmgtfy.com and 'RTFM' are both well know suggests that this
is not a fringe opinion.

The intelligent thing is to give a reasonable answer and point the person
to some web pages where they can become informed and then ignore it.

I would describe that as the indulgent thing, not the intelligent thing.

Thanks Tom, I was beginning to think no one else cared about such
netiquette, and I just opted to let it go. Nevertheless, now that you
brought this up, I would like to point a couple of more things out to
Jerry:

The _intelligent_ thing to do is to actually read before blabbering
here about some religious crap.

When the OP signed up to this list he must have read this:

http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/eresources.html#ERESOURCES-MAIL

Where things like the following are very clearly stated:

When in doubt about what list to post a question to, see How to get
best results from the FreeBSD-questions mailing list.
Which points to this:
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/freebsd-questions/

Before posting to any list, please learn about how to best use the
mailing lists, such as how to help avoid frequently-repeated
discussions, by reading the Mailing List Frequently Asked Questions
(FAQ) document.
Which points to this:
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/mailing-list-faq/

And in almost all these places there are links to the netiquette,
recommendations on how to search before you post and tons of
information on how to correctly interact with these mailing lists.

Ignorantia legis neminem excusat

Yes, yes, yes . . . but back to the issue at hand; cartoons with red
faces and two horns, carrying sharp, pointy things indicate the evil
that must be . . . . ummm . . . I don't know. I'm probably going to
hell just for having thoughts about Satan (or whatever). Like I said,
I don't know ;-)

Ok . . . now I'm done.
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Re: ssh authentication error

2010-11-12 Thread xSAPPYx

On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 10:06, Jerrin slackma...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi,

  On a mac system i generated the key using ssh-keygen -t dsa and copied
 .ssh/id_dsa.pub to /home/user/.ssh/authorized_keys on a Freebsd server, but
 it prompts for the password

Check perms on /home/user/.ssh/authorized_keys
chmod 640 or 600, not 644

If that doesn't work, try to ssh with a -v or -vv, that might give you
more of a clue
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Re: Why do you use a devil as a mascot?

2010-11-12 Thread Jerry

On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 17:43:23 -0500
Alejandro Imass a...@p2ee.org articulated:

 And in almost all these places there are links to the netiquette,
 recommendations on how to search before you post and tons of
 information on how to correctly interact with these mailing lists.

Which are virtually never used. Hell, virgins get more action than some
of those links.

Les excuses sont comme des abrutis, tout le monde en avait un.

-- 
Jerry ✌
freebsd.u...@seibercom.net

Disclaimer: off-list followups get on-list replies or get ignored.
Please do not ignore the Reply-To header.
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Re: ssh authentication error

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 5:58 PM, xSAPPYx xsap...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 10:06, Jerrin slackma...@gmail.com wrote:
  Hi,
 
   On a mac system i generated the key using ssh-keygen -t dsa and copied
  .ssh/id_dsa.pub to /home/user/.ssh/authorized_keys on a Freebsd server,
 but
  it prompts for the password

 Check perms on /home/user/.ssh/authorized_keys
 chmod 640 or 600, not 644

 If that doesn't work, try to ssh with a -v or -vv, that might give you
 more of a clue
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 freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org


That's the permissions of my authorized_keys, I believe that's 0600, some
systems require a much more restrictive 0400 octal.

-rwxr--r--   1 chris  chris   622B Jun 28 21:36 authorized_keys

Did you know...

If you play a Windows 2000 CD backwards, you hear satanic messages,
but what's worse is when you play it forward
  ...it installs Windows 2000

   -- Alfred Perlstein on chat at freebsd.org
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions
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Re: Why do you use a devil as a mascot?

2010-11-12 Thread Byung-Hee HWANG

José Silveira jmlsilve...@gmail.com writes:

 Why do you use a devil as a mascot?

 For me it is nonsense... It makes Christians, Jwishes and Muslins run away!

Well, i don't think devil is bad thing. What do you think of?

Sincerely,

-- 
소여물 황병희(黃炳熙) | .. 출항 15분전..

$GR: projects/mp3/the-godfather,v 1.39 2008/08/10 15:35:10 bh Exp $


pgpLl93fxvnqo.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Why do you use a devil as a mascot?

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 05:38:10PM -0500, Jerry McAllister wrote:
 
 You would have starved before now if other people had your attitude.

Not at all.

It does indeed involve indulging others to do what you described.  There
is nothing necessarily wrong with that, but indulgent is exactly what
it is.

While it may be intelligent to do so as well (depending on
circumstances and goals), it is not *the* intelligent thing to do, which
implies that anything else is necessarily unintelligent.  May other
approaches could be intelligent as well, including some non-indulgent
approaches.

This attitude does not preclude being indulgent, and I'm sure that any
of us who have that attitude would indulge our children (if we have
them) by feeding them in their youth to ensure they do not starve.  One
would hope, however, that we would teach those children to be a bit more
self-sufficient before they reach the age of majority, however -- and
that this self-sufficiency might suggest to them that a first approach to
figuring out how to find out why a particular OS uses a given logo might
be to check Wikipedia or search Google, or even to check the mailing list
archives, before making accusatory, holier-than-thou demands of the
community in the mailing list.

The entire approach of the OP's demands was offensive and showed a
distinct attitude of unwarranted entitlement.  It should be no wonder
that people did not respond positively, especially given that it happens
probably about twice a year.

-- 
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]


pgpVenEKVf4qY.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: glibc-2.4

2010-11-12 Thread Michael Powell

Chris Brennan wrote:

 I've got a freebsd7.3 box running on an old VAIO PIII. For the most part
 Ziggy chugs along quite well as my backup internal webserver and dns
 slave.
 
 uname -a - FreeBSD ziggy.xaerolimit.net 7.3-RELEASE-p3 FreeBSD
 7.3-RELEASE-p3 #8: Sun Oct 24 01:53:03 EDT 2010
 r...@ziggy.xaerolimit.net:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/ZIGGY  i386
 
 This evening I was fixing the very old s...@home client that the machine
 has been chugging with for like 5 years now. The machine started out as a
 FreeBSD5 install and has been progressively upgraded over the years to
 it's current incarnate. While trying to use the client from this (
 http://boinc.berkeley.edu/dl/boinc_6.10.58_i686-pc-linux-gnu.sh) I get the
 following error
 
 [s...@ziggy ~]$ ./BOINC/run_client --attach_project
 http://setiathome.berkeley.edu be1dc44b8692b798473781a73c1944b7 --daemon
 ./boinc: /lib/obsolete/linuxthreads/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.4' not
 found (required by ./boinc)
 [s...@ziggy ~]$

There is a port devel/linuxthreads. An ldconfig -r |grep libc on an 8.1 
release system here returns: 0:-lc.7 = /lib/libc.so.7

Since the above error is complaining about an .so.6 version, I'm wondering 
if you might need either/and/or the linuxthreads port installed in addition 
to misc/compat6x. 
 
 Incidentally, the same exact i686 binary works just fine on my FBSD64-8.1
 laptop ... so what gives? I don't remember seeing a readily available
 GLIBC solution in ports.

A quick look at the ports version reveals it to be an older version than 
described above. Listed as a dependency is glib-2.24.2. It would appear to 
me that the newer version you are trying to run has been built against a 
different, albeit older and out-of-date set of libraries. My guess is it was 
built against FreeBSD 6.

I also believe if you were to install from ports it would be linking against  
pthread libs as opposed to the linuxthreads in the above error. Perhaps a 
closer examination and comparison against the FBSD64-8.1 that runs may show 
missing linuxthreads and compat6x? 

Just a wild guess on my part here.  :-)

-Mike




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Re: Why do you use a devil as a mascot?

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 6:29 PM, Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com wrote:

 On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 05:38:10PM -0500, Jerry McAllister wrote:
 
  You would have starved before now if other people had your attitude.

 Not at all.

 It does indeed involve indulging others to do what you described.  There
 is nothing necessarily wrong with that, but indulgent is exactly what
 it is.

 While it may be intelligent to do so as well (depending on
 circumstances and goals), it is not *the* intelligent thing to do, which
 implies that anything else is necessarily unintelligent.  May other
 approaches could be intelligent as well, including some non-indulgent
 approaches.

 This attitude does not preclude being indulgent, and I'm sure that any
 of us who have that attitude would indulge our children (if we have
 them) by feeding them in their youth to ensure they do not starve.  One
 would hope, however, that we would teach those children to be a bit more
 self-sufficient before they reach the age of majority, however -- and
 that this self-sufficiency might suggest to them that a first approach to
 figuring out how to find out why a particular OS uses a given logo might
 be to check Wikipedia or search Google, or even to check the mailing list
 archives, before making accusatory, holier-than-thou demands of the
 community in the mailing list.

 The entire approach of the OP's demands was offensive and showed a
 distinct attitude of unwarranted entitlement.  It should be no wonder
 that people did not respond positively, especially given that it happens
 probably about twice a year.

 --
 Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]


I think it's safe to say that either a) Mr. Silveira has unsubscribed from
the list or b) learned to keep his mouth shut and scampered off into the
dark to learn the proper netiquette of this list. Must we continue to beat
this already dead horse?

Did you know...
If you play a Windows 2000 CD backwards, you hear satanic messages,
but what's worse is when you play it forward
 ...it installs Windows 2000

   -- Alfred Perlstein on chat at freebsd.org
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions
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Re: Tips for installing windows and freeBSD both.. anyone??


Since this discussion refuses to die, I hope the participants will heed
my suggestion and collect the results on a webpage somewhere so we don't
have to go over it all many times again in the future.

So far, I haven't seen anything said that wasn't already said five, ten,
fifteen or even twenty years ago.  Maybe it goes even further back than
that, but that's about as long as I have personally been aware of this
particular debate.
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Re: Why do you use a devil as a mascot?


On Fri 12 Nov 2010 at 15:44:01 PST Chris Brennan wrote:

Must we continue to beat this already dead horse?


Apparently the answer is yes, when we're not beating the equally
dead horse of the CLI vs GUI debate.

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Re: glibc-2.4

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 6:45 PM, Michael Powell nightre...@hotmail.comwrote:

 Chris Brennan wrote:

  I've got a freebsd7.3 box running on an old VAIO PIII. For the most part
  Ziggy chugs along quite well as my backup internal webserver and dns
  slave.
 
  uname -a - FreeBSD ziggy.xaerolimit.net 7.3-RELEASE-p3 FreeBSD
  7.3-RELEASE-p3 #8: Sun Oct 24 01:53:03 EDT 2010
  r...@ziggy.xaerolimit.net:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/ZIGGY  i386
 
  This evening I was fixing the very old s...@home client that the machine
  has been chugging with for like 5 years now. The machine started out as a
  FreeBSD5 install and has been progressively upgraded over the years to
  it's current incarnate. While trying to use the client from this (
  http://boinc.berkeley.edu/dl/boinc_6.10.58_i686-pc-linux-gnu.sh) I get
 the
  following error
 
  [s...@ziggy ~]$ ./BOINC/run_client --attach_project
  http://setiathome.berkeley.edu be1dc44b8692b798473781a73c1944b7 --daemon
  ./boinc: /lib/obsolete/linuxthreads/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.4' not
  found (required by ./boinc)
  [s...@ziggy ~]$

 There is a port devel/linuxthreads. An ldconfig -r |grep libc on an 8.1
 release system here returns: 0:-lc.7 = /lib/libc.so.7

 Since the above error is complaining about an .so.6 version, I'm wondering
 if you might need either/and/or the linuxthreads port installed in addition
 to misc/compat6x.

  Incidentally, the same exact i686 binary works just fine on my FBSD64-8.1
  laptop ... so what gives? I don't remember seeing a readily available
  GLIBC solution in ports.

 A quick look at the ports version reveals it to be an older version than
 described above. Listed as a dependency is glib-2.24.2. It would appear to
 me that the newer version you are trying to run has been built against a
 different, albeit older and out-of-date set of libraries. My guess is it
 was
 built against FreeBSD 6.

 I also believe if you were to install from ports it would be linking
 against
 pthread libs as opposed to the linuxthreads in the above error. Perhaps a
 closer examination and comparison against the FBSD64-8.1 that runs may show
 missing linuxthreads and compat6x?

 Just a wild guess on my part here.  :-)

 -Mike


Wow, lots of info to digest there lol. To be honest, I just figured it was
an artifact left over from a previous major version upgrade. This box did
have fbsd-x86-6.x installed on it at once time, it started it's life with
fbsd-x86-5.x and I immediately moved into the 6-branch to learn how to
migrate major versions. I was also hoping it would be an easy fix :D. While
I am a bit crafty, a lot of concepts are still new to me. Point me to what I
should install, and I will happily install it if it will make it work. If
it's deemed to be a lost cause ... then so be it and I just may embark on
upgrading this box to fbsd-x86-8.1 and go from there.

Could you simplify your wild guess into slightly more digestible terms :D

Did you know...
If you play a Windows 2000 CD backwards, you hear satanic messages,
but what's worse is when you play it forward

  ...it installs Windows 2000
   -- Alfred Perlstein on chat at freebsd.org
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions
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Re: Why do you use a devil as a mascot?

2010-11-12 Thread Gary Gatten

Let's start a thread listing dead horses to beat:

M$ vs Novell
Unix vs Linux
Mainframe vs PC
DAS vs SAN
Top-posting vs Bottom posting
Blah blah blah vs Yada yada yada

- Original Message -
From: owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org
To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
Sent: Fri Nov 12 17:57:46 2010
Subject: Re: Why do you use a devil as a mascot?

On Fri 12 Nov 2010 at 15:44:01 PST Chris Brennan wrote:
Must we continue to beat this already dead horse?

Apparently the answer is yes, when we're not beating the equally
dead horse of the CLI vs GUI debate.

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Re: Why do you use a devil as a mascot?

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 6:57 PM, Charlie Kester corky1...@comcast.netwrote:

 On Fri 12 Nov 2010 at 15:44:01 PST Chris Brennan wrote:

 Must we continue to beat this already dead horse?


 Apparently the answer is yes, when we're not beating the equally
 dead horse of the CLI vs GUI debate.


But that has turned into quite an interesting philosophical debate. No one
is flamming anyone and everyone is contributing a little here and there to
the CLU(TUI)/GUI debate.

Did you know...
If you play a Windows 2000 CD backwards, you hear satanic messages,
but what's worse is when you play it forward
  ...it installs Windows 2000

   -- Alfred Perlstein on chat at freebsd.org
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions
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Re: Why do you use a devil as a mascot?

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 7:05 PM, Gary Gatten ggat...@waddell.com wrote:

 Let's start a thread listing dead horses to beat:

 M$ vs Novell
 Unix vs Linux
 Mainframe vs PC
 DAS vs SAN
 Top-posting vs Bottom posting
 Blah blah blah vs Yada yada yada


How ironic, I was just having this debate w/ a friend of mine off-list.
(top-posting vs. bottom-posting that is).

Did you know...
If you play a Windows 2000 CD backwards, you hear satanic messages,

but what's worse is when you play it forward
  ...it installs Windows 2000
   -- Alfred Perlstein on chat at freebsd.org
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions
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Re: Why do you use a devil as a mascot?

2010-11-12 Thread Gary Gatten

Bottom posting is a HUGE PITA on mobile devices, which I use a LOT. But, if top 
posting is the rule and the accepted way, then I GUESS I'll make more effort to 
avoid top posting. Maybe a new years resolution?

From: Chris Brennan xa...@xaerolimit.net
To: Gary Gatten
Cc: corky1...@comcast.net corky1...@comcast.net; 
freebsd-questions@freebsd.org freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
Sent: Fri Nov 12 18:10:55 2010
Subject: Re: Why do you use a devil as a mascot?

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 7:05 PM, Gary Gatten 
ggat...@waddell.commailto:ggat...@waddell.com wrote:
Let's start a thread listing dead horses to beat:

M$ vs Novell
Unix vs Linux
Mainframe vs PC
DAS vs SAN
Top-posting vs Bottom posting
Blah blah blah vs Yada yada yada

How ironic, I was just having this debate w/ a friend of mine off-list. 
(top-posting vs. bottom-posting that is).

Did you know...
If you play a Windows 2000 CD backwards, you hear satanic messages,

but what's worse is when you play it forward
  ...it installs Windows 2000
   -- Alfred Perlstein on chat at 
freebsd.orghttp://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions

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Re: Why do you use a devil as a mascot?

On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 15:57:46 -0800, Charlie Kester corky1...@comcast.net 
wrote:
 On Fri 12 Nov 2010 at 15:44:01 PST Chris Brennan wrote:
 Must we continue to beat this already dead horse?
 
 Apparently the answer is yes, when we're not beating the equally
 dead horse of the CLI vs GUI debate.

Why vs? It's and. So let's have the vs vs and debate.
And as we are already on-topic, let's discuss which logical
operator is the best, maybe we find an alternative to vs
or and... or... yes, what about or? :-)


-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: Why do you use a devil as a mascot?


On Fri 12 Nov 2010 at 16:05:33 PST Gary Gatten wrote:

Let's start a thread listing dead horses to beat:

M$ vs Novell
Unix vs Linux
Mainframe vs PC
DAS vs SAN
Top-posting vs Bottom posting
Blah blah blah vs Yada yada yada


OK, I'll play:

Gnome vs KDE
Ports vs Packages (vs PBI's)
GPL vs BSDL
C vs any other programming language
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Re: Tips for installing windows and freeBSD both.. anyone??

2010-11-12 Thread David Brodbeck

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 12:24 PM, Peter A. Giessel pgies...@mac.com wrote:
 On 2010/11/12 at 10:33, rfar...@predatorlabs.net (Rob Farmer) wrote:
 it is better for real/serious work, but the general public doesn't see
 it as new or valuable - its just a stupid change in the way everything
 has always been done.

I'd say that's because for most people it offers no particular
advantages in exchange for the work of learning it.  Most people don't
do unit conversions as frequently as scientists do, so the relative
difficulty of converting from inches to miles instead of centimeters
to kilometers doesn't affect them.

Even countries that have ostensibly converted to SI on an official
basis still have people using non-SI units on a day-to-day basis.
Talk to someone from the UK and they'll probably give you their weight
in stone and distances in miles.

 It depends on what you mean by real serious work.  Try ordering a
 cubic meter of concrete or a #25 rebar in the U.S. and see how far you
 get.

The construction field offers a particular problem because so many
standard items come in inch-based sizes.  Who wants to  mess around
with asking for a 122 cm x 244 cm piece of plywood?  4x8 feet is so
much easier. ;)

On the other hand, manufacturing has largely switched over.  Look at a
modern American car and you'll find mostly metric fasteners.
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Re: Why do you use a devil as a mascot?

2010-11-12 Thread Gary Gatten

Dude, MicroFocus COBOL is WAY better than any flavor of C!  C is an 
indication of average, 70%!  Why didn't they call it A?

And yes, I'm joking about MicroFC vs C.  I'm not a developer so afaik assembly 
is the best!  All I do know is nothing is worse than Java. Not sure where that 
went wrong, but I HATE all the dependancy constraints Java apps have.  At one 
point I had to run 4 version of jave in two different browsersd to use the apps 
I needed.  BS!

- Original Message -
From: owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org
To: 'freebsd-questions@freebsd.org' freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
Sent: Fri Nov 12 18:22:26 2010
Subject: Re: Why do you use a devil as a mascot?

On Fri 12 Nov 2010 at 16:05:33 PST Gary Gatten wrote:
Let's start a thread listing dead horses to beat:

M$ vs Novell
Unix vs Linux
Mainframe vs PC
DAS vs SAN
Top-posting vs Bottom posting
Blah blah blah vs Yada yada yada

OK, I'll play:

Gnome vs KDE
Ports vs Packages (vs PBI's)
GPL vs BSDL
C vs any other programming language
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Re: Why do you use a devil as a mascot?

2010-11-12 Thread Randal L. Schwartz

 Charlie == Charlie Kester corky1...@comcast.net writes:

Charlie OK, I'll play:

Charlie Gnome vs KDE
Charlie Ports vs Packages (vs PBI's)
Charlie GPL vs BSDL
Charlie C vs any other programming language

Perl vs Readability

:-)

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
mer...@stonehenge.com URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/
Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See http://methodsandmessages.posterous.com/ for Smalltalk discussion
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Re: ssh authentication error

2010-11-12 Thread Robert Huff


Chris Brennan writes:

   Check perms on /home/user/.ssh/authorized_keys
   chmod 640 or 600, not 644
  
  That's the permissions of my authorized_keys, I believe that's 0600, some
  systems require a much more restrictive 0400 octal.
  
  -rwxr--r--   1 chris  chris   622B Jun 28 21:36 authorized_keys

Um, I think that's 744.
Whether the appropriate code cares 


Robert Huff

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Re: Why do you use a devil as a mascot?

On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 16:47:40 -0800, mer...@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) 
wrote:
  Charlie == Charlie Kester corky1...@comcast.net writes:
 
 Charlie OK, I'll play:
 
 Charlie Gnome vs KDE
 Charlie Ports vs Packages (vs PBI's)
 Charlie GPL vs BSDL
 Charlie C vs any other programming language
 
 Perl vs Readability
 
 :-)

Man vs machine?

:-)



-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: Why do you use a devil as a mascot?


On Fri 12 Nov 2010 at 16:47:40 PST Randal L. Schwartz wrote:

Charlie == Charlie Kester corky1...@comcast.net writes:


Charlie OK, I'll play:

Charlie Gnome vs KDE
Charlie Ports vs Packages (vs PBI's)
Charlie GPL vs BSDL
Charlie C vs any other programming language

Perl vs Readability


Coming from you, Randal, that's delicious!  Thanks for the laugh.
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Re[2]: How to obtain what swi1:net is doing?

2010-11-12 Thread Коньков Евгений

Здравствуйте, Ivan.

Вы писали 12 ноября 2010 г., 1:33:14:

IV On 11/11/10 20:20, Коньков Евгений wrote:
 Hi, all

IV How to obtain what swi1:net  is doing?

IV The short answer is: depending on what your network card is, it could be
IV everything related to TCP/IP-level processing.

IV In your case, you are doing a lot of work in netgraph and dummynet, 
IV probably shaping, but have high dummynet usage which probably means its
IV handling the lower level of network IO, probably with a high packet rate.

IV You might try including the following loader.conf tunables:

IV net.isr.direct_force=0
IV net.isr.maxthreads=2
FreeBSD/SMP: Multiprocessor System Detected: 4 CPUs
FreeBSD/SMP: 1 package(s) x 2 core(s) x 2 SMT threads
 cpu0 (BSP): APIC ID:  0
 cpu1 (AP): APIC ID:  1
 cpu2 (AP): APIC ID:  4
 cpu3 (AP): APIC ID:  5
ioapic0: Changing APIC ID to 6
ioapic0 Version 2.0 irqs 0-23 on motherboard
netisr_init: forcing maxthreads to 1 and bindthreads to 0 for device polling

# cat /boot/loader.conf
net.isr.maxthreads=2

maxthreads does not affected
#uname -r
9.0-CURRENT


IV ... and report if it helps you. (but be careful: here you must measure
IV real-world performance not CPU usage!)


 last pid: 65736;  load averages:  3.54,  4.46,  3.92up 4+07:51:26  
 21:19:08
 215 processes: 8 running, 195 sleeping, 12 waiting
 CPU 0:  2.9% user,  0.0% nice, 42.9% system, 11.4% interrupt, 42.9% idle
 CPU 1:  0.0% user,  0.0% nice, 54.3% system, 17.1% interrupt, 28.6% idle
 CPU 2:  2.9% user,  0.0% nice, 57.1% system,  5.7% interrupt, 34.3% idle
 CPU 3:  0.0% user,  0.0% nice, 45.7% system, 17.1% interrupt, 37.1% idle
 Mem: 502M Active, 87M Inact, 324M Wired, 24M Cache, 112M Buf, 1053M Free
 Swap: 20G Total, 72K Used, 20G Free

PID USERNAME   PRI NICE   SIZERES STATE  C   TIME   WCPU COMMAND
 15 root   -44- 0K 8K CPU1   3  31.4H 71.39% swi1: net
 35 root   -68- 0K 8K CPU0   0  21.7H 50.20% dummynet
 14 root   171 ki31 0K 8K RUN0  74.8H 42.87% idle: cpu0
 11 root   171 ki31 0K 8K CPU3   3  78.4H 31.79% idle: cpu3
 13 root   171 ki31 0K 8K RUN1  80.3H 29.69% idle: cpu1
 12 root   171 ki31 0K 8K RUN2  76.9H 23.49% idle: cpu2
   1698 root   -68- 0K 8K sleep  2 312:30 15.38% ng_queue0
   1700 root   -68- 0K 8K sleep  3 313:02 15.09% ng_queue2
   1699 root   -68- 0K 8K sleep  2 314:18 14.89% ng_queue1
   1701 root   -68- 0K 8K sleep  1 312:54 14.06% ng_queue3
 63829 www 500   185M   123M select 0   0:47  4.05% httpd
 59213 root960   400M 61940K CPU3   2  32:24  2.98% rtorrent
 16 root   -32- 0K 8K WAIT   2 129:41  0.39% swi4: clock 
 sio


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-- 
С уважением,
 Коньков  mailto:kes-...@yandex.ru

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Re: Why do you use a devil as a mascot?

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 06:44:01PM -0500, Chris Brennan wrote:
 
 I think it's safe to say that either a) Mr. Silveira has unsubscribed from
 the list or b) learned to keep his mouth shut and scampered off into the
 dark to learn the proper netiquette of this list. Must we continue to beat
 this already dead horse?

What would you have me do -- beat a live horse?  I'm not inclined to
subject a living creature to such cruelty.

-- 
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]


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Re: Why do you use a devil as a mascot?

2010-11-12 Thread Bruce Cran

On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 19:08:51 -0500
Chris Brennan xa...@xaerolimit.net wrote:

 Did you know...
 If you play a Windows 2000 CD backwards, you hear satanic messages,
 but what's worse is when you play it forward
   ...it installs Windows 2000

Yes, I think we know that by now.

-- 
Bruce Cran
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Re: Why do you use a devil as a mascot?

2010-11-12 Thread Mubeesh ali

i guess  it is high time this list  bans the word devil in subject ;-)

On Sat, Nov 13, 2010 at 7:46 AM, Bruce Cran br...@cran.org.uk wrote:
 On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 19:08:51 -0500
 Chris Brennan xa...@xaerolimit.net wrote:

 Did you know...
 If you play a Windows 2000 CD backwards, you hear satanic messages,
 but what's worse is when you play it forward
                                       ...it installs Windows 2000

 Yes, I think we know that by now.

 --
 Bruce Cran
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-- 
Best  Regards,

Mubeesh Ali.V.M
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Re: Error 1: gpart create -s GPT ad0

2010-11-12 Thread Kris Moore

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 08:47:00PM +0200, Ivan Klymenko wrote:
 Hello! People.
 
 I use the alternate installer pc-sysinstall based on FreeBSD
 9.0-CURRENT r215176
 When you load the virtual machine qemu disk ad0 is determined by:
 http://img573.imageshack.us/i/qemu1.png/
 but when trying to create a section displays the following error:
 http://img80.imageshack.us/i/qemu.png/
 Think all options for gpart are correct - what can there be a problem?
 
 Thanks!

The gpart syntax looks correct, and ad0 is being used elsewhere in your install 
process successfully. Is this a fresh disk / image? Perhaps something has 
broken in the gpart command?

-- 
Kris Moore
PC-BSD Software
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Re: Error 1: gpart create -s GPT ad0

2010-11-12 Thread Garrett Cooper

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 7:09 PM, Kris Moore k...@pcbsd.org wrote:
 On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 08:47:00PM +0200, Ivan Klymenko wrote:
 Hello! People.

 I use the alternate installer pc-sysinstall based on FreeBSD
 9.0-CURRENT r215176
 When you load the virtual machine qemu disk ad0 is determined by:
 http://img573.imageshack.us/i/qemu1.png/
 but when trying to create a section displays the following error:
 http://img80.imageshack.us/i/qemu.png/
 Think all options for gpart are correct - what can there be a problem?

 Thanks!

 The gpart syntax looks correct, and ad0 is being used elsewhere in your 
 install process successfully. Is this a fresh disk / image? Perhaps something 
 has broken in the gpart command?

According to the gpart(8) manpage, the invocation is correct. It'd
be interesting to see what the log displayed yields, but before then
have you tried kern.geom.debugflags=16? I did a quick scan of
lib/libgeom and sys/geom, and all of the places (minus one) that
returned EINVAL were due to incorrect sector size. What are you using
for your disk?

Thanks,
-Garrett
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Re: Error 1: gpart create -s GPT ad0

2010-11-12 Thread Andrey V. Elsukov

On 12.11.2010 21:47, Ivan Klymenko wrote:
 I use the alternate installer pc-sysinstall based on FreeBSD
 9.0-CURRENT r215176

Hmm, are you sure that your kernel is based on r215176?

-- 
WBR, Andrey V. Elsukov



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Re: Error 1: gpart create -s GPT ad0

2010-11-12 Thread Andrey V. Elsukov

On 12.11.2010 21:47, Ivan Klymenko wrote:
 http://img80.imageshack.us/i/qemu.png/
 Think all options for gpart are correct - what can there be a problem?

This was temporary regression and it is fixed now in r215118.
In any case it is harmless.

-- 
WBR, Andrey V. Elsukov



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Re: Why do you use a devil as a mascot?

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 8:50 PM, Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com wrote:

 On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 06:44:01PM -0500, Chris Brennan wrote:
 
  I think it's safe to say that either a) Mr. Silveira has unsubscribed
 from
  the list or b) learned to keep his mouth shut and scampered off into the
  dark to learn the proper netiquette of this list. Must we continue to
 beat
  this already dead horse?

 What would you have me do -- beat a live horse?  I'm not inclined to
 subject a living creature to such cruelty.

 --
 Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]



Is beating a dead horse no more cruel?

Did you know...
If you play a Windows 2000 CD backwards, you hear satanic messages,
but what's worse is when you play it forward

  ...it installs Windows 2000
   -- Alfred Perlstein on chat at freebsd.org
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions
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Re: Why do you use a devil as a mascot?