Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
No. The company CREATES a need for their product. That's the number one rule. if they succeed - what's wrong? You tell me. nothing. As long as nobody is forced to buy someones product, every kind of propaganda is allowed. It's just peoples problem if they will believe that they NEED for eg. new cell phone, while their old just works fine for what he/she does (calling, SMS) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
The usefulness of government intervention into private lives, businesses, etc. is never going to be resolved on this forum. I am just going to leave with something I received at a business lecture a few years ago. It was by a Princeton professor, Dr. Webner I believe. quote Innovation has never come from a bureau. Bureaucracy is antithetical to innovation. What's more, it is bloody fascist. God forefend the day when every independent entity has to check with some overweening bureaucracy before they try something. Anyone who makes any claim to respecting liberty and then endorses this kind of nonsense should feel a considerable amount of shame for his or her hypocrisy and embrace of tyranny. /quote -- Jerry ges...@yahoo.com There will be sex after death, we just won't be able to feel it. Lily Tomlin ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 03:13:13PM +0200, Wojciech Puchar wrote: Done the same with HP Laserjet 4000 duplex - it even received an IP automatically via DHCP, so I just had to arp -a and edit /etc/hosts and /etc/printcap. The lpq / lprm tools seemed to operate on the printer server inside the printer. For non-ethernet printers like my laserjet 4 there are often available original print server modules for them for really nothing (i paid 10$) if not, and you need ethernet connectivity, then this http://www.edimax.com/en/produce_detail.php?pd_id=50pl1_id=7pl2_id=34 is a perfect choice. i recommend it for every unix user. Thanks for the pointer! I was actually looking for a set of ethernet print servers, and this looks very promising. Can you confirm that the PS-1206P works well under RELENG_7? As they are advertised as mostly for windows, i actually found configuring it under unix very simple exactly as you said (/etc/printcap), while incredibly complex under windows ;) TIA, -cpghost. -- Cordula's Web. http://www.cordula.ws/ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
is a perfect choice. i recommend it for every unix user. Thanks for the pointer! I was actually looking for a set of ethernet print servers, and this looks very promising. Can you confirm that the PS-1206P works well under RELENG_7? it can't. it's ethernet device not PC peripheral so it doesn't run under FreeBSD or whatever, but on LAN :) in /etc/printcap add: printer1:blahblah:sh:rm=IP.number.put.here:sd=/var/spool/lpd/printer1:lf=/var/log/printer1: and go. Of course add postscript filters if you like ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Competition law (was Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint)
I know what socialism means. You seem not to. I haven't anywhere advocated state ownership of businesses - in fact I very clearly stated that I believe in a free market with only that level of regulation required to keep it free from monopoly abuse. You are wrong. there is no monopoly abuse when monopoly doesn't have extra support from government. How could monopoly (if monopoly happen at all) abuse ? Selling below costs? OK let they sell, others will wait a bit or even buy the products until monopoly will not have money to continue this, then compete with the monopoly by selling back what they bought on below-cost prices. Forcing others to stop producing? how? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
Wojciech Puchar said the following on 2009-05-28 23:06: Poland is now slowly losing independence Poland has never had any independence. Your argument is moot. generally you are right. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
Basic law of marketing is to give the public what they want. No. The company CREATES a need for their product. That's the number one rule. if they succeed - what's wrong? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
The usefulness of government intervention into private lives, businesses, etc. is never going to be resolved on this forum. And will it be resolved with discussion anywhere else with anyone else? ;) Only usage of crude force can change the way things go today. And both me and anyone on that list doesn't have such force. Innovation has never come from a bureau. The same as knowledge never come from schools. Most innovators was quite bad at school, ignored school at all, or was good, but then had to relearn everything from scratch. And - as you said, there are very little, and none great, inventions from any government sponsored scientific groups. More important - if sponsoring is targeted at some achievement (like finding a cure for cancer) the most stupid thing such group can do is to achieve what required and lose funding. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 05:18:07PM +0200, Wojciech Puchar wrote: is a perfect choice. i recommend it for every unix user. Thanks for the pointer! I was actually looking for a set of ethernet print servers, and this looks very promising. Can you confirm that the PS-1206P works well under RELENG_7? it can't. Okay, thank you. I'll order one and test drive it here, and if it works as it should, I'll order the remaining 200 or so if we're satisfied. ;) it's ethernet device not PC peripheral so it doesn't run under FreeBSD or whatever, but on LAN :) in /etc/printcap add: printer1:blahblah:sh:rm=IP.number.put.here:sd=/var/spool/lpd/printer1:lf=/var/log/printer1: I know how to do that, but thanks nonetheless. We have a lot of these little boxes around: http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=322 hooked on old HP DeskJets for moderate to heavy office use, but knowing about alternatives is always good. and go. Of course add postscript filters if you like Thanks, -cpghost. -- Cordula's Web. http://www.cordula.ws/ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
it can't. Okay, thank you. I'll order one and test drive it here, and if it works as it should, I'll order the remaining 200 or so if we're satisfied. ;) so ask edimax directly you certainly get a discount on it. But of course test before. I installed only 7 in various places. hooked on old HP DeskJets for moderate to heavy office use, but knowing about alternatives is always good. these LPT-ethernet bridges from edimax was really cheap at least here. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
On Thursday 28 May 2009 22:52:47 Jerry wrote: Did you ever bother to consider that if the printer manufacturers actually formed a consensus on a printer language, some third world county or the EU would probably sue them. Nothing I have seen in 20 years equals the audacity of the EU. As long as no 'standard' no matter how arbitrary, stupid or counter-productive exists, they are in theory safe from the EU. Besides, nothing stifles development as tightly as being bound to an arbitrary 'standard'. What a breathtakingly stupid remark. The EU has acted against two companies (Microsoft and Intel) who have used illegal business methods to protect and extend their monopolies and suppress competition. Or are you suggesting that a format or protocol which is implemented by several different companies, allowing vendors to compete fairly on other grounds (price, features, quality, ... ) while protecting consumers by making it possible for them to move from one vendor to another, is somehow a worse idea than a proprietary format or protocol which is forced into a market-dominating position by illegal tactics such as paying manufacturers extra to incorporate it, or penalising them financially for providing competing products? If that's the case, why is no-one trying to use the courts to prevent the use of ODF, a published standard which is now used by several companies and Free Software projects to provide a common format for documents? Once a company dominates a particular market it's held to a different standard than other companies in that market - because the power of the monopoly can be used not only to prevent competition in the original market, but to extend the market domination into new markets, by techniques like product tying, distributing at below cost (effectively drawing subsidy from the original monopoly product) until competitors are driven out of business, and so on. Microsoft has been convicted of doing all these things, in US courts, in courts in Asia, and in courts in Europe. These are matters of fact, not opinion. Intel has been convicted of many of these things in courts in Asia and in Europe. The fact that the US system is too supine to take action against these companies doesn't make the EU ``arrogant''. Let's not forget why Unix took off and expanded the way it did: once upon a time the US courts did take antitrust seriously, and prevented ATT using its telco monopoly to expand into market domination of the computer business. Jonathan ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
The EU has acted against two companies (Microsoft and Intel) who have used illegal business methods to protect and extend their monopolies and suppress competition. This is just the occasion to get another tax by UE clerks. As Microsoft and Intel just pay a fine, and doesn't really change their behaviour, it's just tax that final users pay. Anyway i am against any such regulations. Free Market is a best regulator. As people DO LIKE their products and the slavery by using them - their problem. It would be much better of removing things that are against free market rules, software patents are perfect example. But as most of the world (lead by UE) goes back into socialism, that heroicly fights problems it creates, it won't happen. Or are you suggesting that a format or protocol which is implemented by several different companies, allowing vendors to compete fairly on other grounds (price, features, quality, ... ) while protecting consumers by making This is a proper idea. But both doing this, and not doing this, is not matter of any clerk, politician or king, but of people choice and free market. People should choose if they want to use open standards and be independent, or use closed standards and become slaves. As some people like to be slaves, there are no reason to forbid it. extra to incorporate it, or penalising them financially for providing competing products? The worst thing of UE (and other government) is that they are putting their dirty hand into free market at all. If that's the case, why is no-one trying to use the courts to prevent the use of ODF, a published standard which is now used by several companies and Free Software projects to provide a common format for documents? maybe yet? but yes - i think the first poster exaggerated things. UE doesn't (yet?) fights with open standard. They even say they are promoting it. Of course best they can do is not to do anything. Microsoft has been convicted of doing all these things, in US courts, in courts in Asia, and in courts in Europe. These are matters of fact, not opinion. Government in Asia just do the same - another source of taxes. If they would like to really punish MS, fines will be much higher and MEANINGFUL to microsoft. off and expanded the way it did: once upon a time the US courts did take antitrust seriously, and prevented ATT using its telco monopoly to expand Or maybe it solved problem it created - software patents that existed in US already, and prevented BSD to be spread and improved?! Don't you remember. The government is always a SOURCE, not solution to a problem. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
2009/5/29 Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl: The EU has acted against two companies (Microsoft and Intel) who have used illegal business methods to protect and extend their monopolies and suppress competition. This is just the occasion to get another tax by UE clerks. As Microsoft and Intel just pay a fine, and doesn't really change their behaviour, it's just tax that final users pay. Anyway i am against any such regulations. Free Market is a best regulator. As people DO LIKE their products and the slavery by using them - their problem. Do you really think the free market protects our freedoms? Remember the East India Company? Chris -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in a mailing list? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
Polytropon free...@edvax.de wrote: CUPS isn't extra software in my opinions. CUPS is a PITA, but it may nevertheless be the least bad solution if one is stuck with a junk printer. Decent, network-capable, PostScript printers do not have to be costly. I bought a Samsung ML-2571N at Fry's for something like $60(US) a year or two ago. All I had to do was plug it into the network, add its IP address to /etc/hosts, add a suitable entry to /etc/printcap, and lpr just works. No need to bother with CUPS. Granted the ML-2571N is monochrome and Samsung's color printer did not support PostScript last I knew. For color, I got a Xerox printer or a few hundred US$ a while back. Like the Samsung it has PostScript, networking, and lpd support built in; another pair of /etc/hosts and /etc/printcap entries and lpr just works for it also. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
Polytropon free...@edvax.de wrote: ... If the printer has PS or PCL, gs or even apsfilter will help. Dunno about PCL, but if the printer has PS it surely does not need gs. The whole point of gs -- in connection with printing -- is to translate PS into some other form that a non-PS printer can handle. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
On Fri, 29 May 2009 09:34:36 +0200 Jonathan McKeown j.mcke...@ru.ac.za wrote: On Thursday 28 May 2009 22:52:47 Jerry wrote: Did you ever bother to consider that if the printer manufacturers actually formed a consensus on a printer language, some third world county or the EU would probably sue them. Nothing I have seen in 20 years equals the audacity of the EU. As long as no 'standard' no matter how arbitrary, stupid or counter-productive exists, they are in theory safe from the EU. Besides, nothing stifles development as tightly as being bound to an arbitrary 'standard'. What a breathtakingly stupid remark. The EU has acted against two companies (Microsoft and Intel) who have used illegal business methods to protect and extend their monopolies and suppress competition. Or are you suggesting that a format or protocol which is implemented by several different companies, allowing vendors to compete fairly on other grounds (price, features, quality, ... ) while protecting consumers by making it possible for them to move from one vendor to another, is somehow a worse idea than a proprietary format or protocol which is forced into a market-dominating position by illegal tactics such as paying manufacturers extra to incorporate it, or penalising them financially for providing competing products? The concept behind the EU is socialism, pure and simple. It attempts to create an artificial playing field that allows the incompetent to compete with the motivated. It forces those who create new technology to share it, usually sans monetary compensation, with common bottom feeders. A free, open market is the way to encourage development and new ideas and technology. Not some pathetic, socialistic concept. If that's the case, why is no-one trying to use the courts to prevent the use of ODF, a published standard which is now used by several companies and Free Software projects to provide a common format for documents? Once a company dominates a particular market it's held to a different standard than other companies in that market - because the power of the monopoly can be used not only to prevent competition in the original market, but to extend the market domination into new markets, by techniques like product tying, distributing at below cost (effectively drawing subsidy from the original monopoly product) until competitors are driven out of business, and so on. A company has the right to disperse their product as they see fit. I know a socialist like you finds that abhorrent; however, it is never the less true. Tell me, if I wanted to sell you a $300 thousand dollar Ferrari for $10, would you: A: complain to the police or what ever legal authority you feel so fit to complain to; B: slam $10 in my hand in a heart beat? I think we know the answer. You are a hypocrite. Has it ever occurred to you how a company grows and becomes successful? I know, in your world it is by using the Government to squash competition; however, in a truly free society, it is by hard word and giving the consumer what they want at a price they are willing to pay. Basic business 101. Microsoft has been convicted of doing all these things, in US courts, in courts in Asia, and in courts in Europe. These are matters of fact, not opinion. Intel has been convicted of many of these things in courts in Asia and in Europe. The fact that the US system is too supine to take action against these companies doesn't make the EU ``arrogant''. Let's not forget why Unix took off and expanded the way it did: once upon a time the US courts did take antitrust seriously, and prevented ATT using its telco monopoly to expand into market domination of the computer business. The spinelessness of the American court system is that they do not take legal action against European countries that practice reverse discrimination, or the outright breach of copyright laws, etc. I know, you socialists also abhor copyright laws. The concept of an individual actually benefiting from his/her hard work and not having to share it with every scum sucker who comes begging at his door disturbs you. -- Jerry ges...@yahoo.com All God's children are not beautiful. Most of God's children are, in fact, barely presentable. Fran Lebowitz, Metropolitan Life signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
CUPS isn't extra software in my opinions. CUPS is a PITA, but it may nevertheless be the least bad solution if one is stuck with a junk printer. i really have nicer things to do that fighting with winprinter, when i can get normal printer for really low price. Decent, network-capable, PostScript printers do not have to be costly. I bought a Samsung ML-2571N at Fry's for something like $60(US) a year or two ago. All I had to do was plug it into the network, add its IP address to /etc/hosts, add a suitable entry to /etc/printcap, and lpr just works. No need to bother with CUPS. postscript printers are easiest, but PCL as not much more difficult, just write simple filter using ghostscript. Even not write - just modify existing examples like below #!/bin/sh # # ifhp - Print Ghostscript-simulated PostScript on a DesJet 500 # Installed in /usr/local/libexec/hpif # # Treat LF as CR+LF: # printf \033k2G || exit 2 # # Read first two characters of the file # read first_line first_two_chars=`expr $first_line : '\(..\)'` if [ $first_two_chars = %! ]; then # # It is PostScript; use Ghostscript to scan-convert and print it # /usr/local/bin/gs -dSAFER -dNOPAUSE -q -sPAPERSIZE=a4 -sDEVICE=ljet4 -sOutputFile=- - \ exit 0 else # # Plain text or HP/PCL, so just print it directly; print a form # at the end to eject the last page. # echo $first_line cat printf \f exit 0 fi exit 2 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
The concept behind the EU is socialism, pure and simple. It attempts to unfortunately yes. and i'm so unfortunate to live here. Strange enough Poland are fortunately very behind in this at least under current government, but the question is how long... feeders. A free, open market is the way to encourage development and new ideas and technology. Not some pathetic, socialistic concept. Free means everybody will decide if to share ideas and work or not, instead of beaurocratic parasites deciding for them. If anyone thinks that there will be no sharing then - welcome to FreeBSD :) IMHO Really good deal of code in this system is something that people wrote themselves because they needed for their business, and then gave it back without any force. am i right? A company has the right to disperse their product as they see fit. I know a socialist like you finds that abhorrent; however, it is never the He fortunately isn't dangerous socialist, just repeating what he learned from constant propaganda. nothing else. Those who tell similar ideas just because he want to get into politics or become a clerk to get easily money - are bad but still not as dangerous. The really dangerous are those who really truly believe in that shit and do everything to make it happen. In computer world Richard Stallman is good example with his GNU ideas and communist licence. Developing things under GNU licence is complete waste of time, as less and less companies will use it's product. Does it make sense that - for example - i develop quite complex software/hardware and just used some simple part of GNU code to save time and not reinvent a wheel - and then i have to share ALL MY WORK, including my trade secrets? No it doesn't, i would rather seek for BSD licenced things, use it, then contribute back any improvement i made to it. Not because some f..n EU clerk requested me to do this, but because i get something and want to reward. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
Anyway i am against any such regulations. Free Market is a best regulator. As people DO LIKE their products and the slavery by using them - their problem. Do you really think the free market protects our freedoms? When it's FREE it does. Of course there are lot of people that believe in socialism and other nonsense about controlling free market. And the more controlled market is, the worse is life, add constant brainwashing to this, and EVEN more people start to believe in it, then it gets even worse until everything falls completely. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
On Fri, 29 May 2009 01:09:45 -0700, per...@pluto.rain.com wrote: CUPS is a PITA, but it may nevertheless be the least bad solution if one is stuck with a junk printer. Don't get me wrong, please: I do not like CUPS, and I don't use it (I prefer apsfilter). CUPS requires too much dependencies that I don't have any use for. But regarding its alternatives... there are none. Those modern# printers can usually only get to work using CUPS, because apsfilter doesn't support the most modern printers, has no support for PPD files (as far as I know, never needed it), and the printers itself cannot be made confirming to standards. Decent, network-capable, PostScript printers do not have to be costly. I didn't say they have. It's always a question of the printers quality (how good it works, how long it works) and the amount of toner they come with; for inkjet stuff, criteria are similar (allthough I don't know an inkjet printer with PS and network). Even used stuff, therefore cheap, is still of high quality. I bought a Samsung ML-2571N at Fry's for something like $60(US) a year or two ago. All I had to do was plug it into the network, add its IP address to /etc/hosts, add a suitable entry to /etc/printcap, and lpr just works. No need to bother with CUPS. Done the same with HP Laserjet 4000 duplex - it even received an IP automatically via DHCP, so I just had to arp -a and edit /etc/hosts and /etc/printcap. The lpq / lprm tools seemed to operate on the printer server inside the printer. For color, I got a Xerox printer or a few hundred US$ a while back. Like the Samsung it has PostScript, networking, and lpd support built in; another pair of /etc/hosts and /etc/printcap entries and lpr just works for it also. I'll note this for the upcoming topic of getting a color laser printer some times in the future. :-) -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
But regarding its alternatives... there are none. Those modern# printers can usually only get to work using CUPS, because apsfilter there are. don't use these modern printers. Of course not all of them. It's natural that you buy hardware that will be supported by software you use. CUPS is like workaround for me. Decent, network-capable, PostScript printers do not have to be costly. I didn't say they have. It's always a question of the printers postscript printer is the simplest solution. anyway - they MAY NOT print every page because they have limited hardware capacity and may be not able to process overcomplex postscript files. Possibly not a big deal today as their capacity is better than before, but in case of problems you may use ghostscript as ps-to-ps filter. quality (how good it works, how long it works) and the amount of toner they come with; for inkjet stuff, criteria are similar Unless you need to print no more than 10 pages a month, i recommend against buying any inkjet printer. They are incredibly costly to use, even when being damn cheap to buy. Done the same with HP Laserjet 4000 duplex - it even received an IP automatically via DHCP, so I just had to arp -a and edit /etc/hosts and /etc/printcap. The lpq / lprm tools seemed to operate on the printer server inside the printer. For non-ethernet printers like my laserjet 4 there are often available original print server modules for them for really nothing (i paid 10$) if not, and you need ethernet connectivity, then this http://www.edimax.com/en/produce_detail.php?pd_id=50pl1_id=7pl2_id=34 is a perfect choice. i recommend it for every unix user. As they are advertised as mostly for windows, i actually found configuring it under unix very simple exactly as you said (/etc/printcap), while incredibly complex under windows ;) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
On Fri, 29 May 2009 09:48:29 +0200 (CEST), Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote: maybe yet? but yes - i think the first poster exaggerated things. UE doesn't (yet?) fights with open standard. They even say they are promoting it. Of course best they can do is not to do anything. In fact, they're simply ignoring it. If they would like to really punish MS, fines will be much higher and MEANINGFUL to microsoft. But that's not intended, as you pointed out. The situation SHOULD not change; the question is just: How can we (the EU) get some money out of this situation, and maybe repeat it at another time (which requires that nothing changes)? The government is always a SOURCE, not solution to a problem. I may illustrate this with an example from Germany: Politicians, accompanied by their counselors from the industry, released rules about what software to use in schools and in professional schools, in ministries, in executive organs. This choice is always Windows (allthough obviously outdated versions), and only in the mission critical fields mainframes are used (IBM mostly, and Siemens). This leads to two important facts: 1. Children who learn in school do only learn Windows. They get knowledge that they can't use on more modern Windows systems anymore. Example: In school they have Windows 2000 with Word '97. Then, they encounter Windows XP with some newer Office (in worst case, the one with that strange GUI concept). 2. Educational companies who educate professional pupils (in preparation for a job) are explicitely regulated which Windows to use. They get money if they meet the requirements. This money, of course, comes from taxes (and I'm sure you know where taxes come from). As soon as a company would say, We want to prepare our pupils for the growing importance of Linux and UNIX in the corporate world, so we want to offer a class for Linux beginners, they would get no money for it (allthough Linux itself is free of charge, PCs aren't). In these settings where Windows is used, there's almost no one who can administer the systems nearly correctly. This is because of the misbelief that Windows administers itself. In some cases, the maintainers of the PC classes even don't bother installing expensive MICROS~1 products that they got a pirated copy of on 30 PCs. The teachers sometimes even don't have a clue about what they should teach. Pupils leaving these edicational companies treat PCs like worse typewriters and usually aren't able to use any kind of text processing software halfways properly. When they enter a job, they recognize that they haven't learned anything useful. Nobody cares. You see: Politicians (those who are responsible for the decisions made) create their own problems - they are the source of the problems. -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
On Fri, 29 May 2009 01:35:00 -0700, per...@pluto.rain.com wrote: Polytropon free...@edvax.de wrote: ... If the printer has PS or PCL, gs or even apsfilter will help. Dunno about PCL, but if the printer has PS it surely does not need gs. The whole point of gs -- in connection with printing -- is to translate PS into some other form that a non-PS printer can handle. You're correct, PS doesn't need gs. Because most (all?) applications output PS when printing (that's a standard), the data can be sent directly to the printer that processes it. In case of PCL, apsfilter is quite okay, but you can just employ gs to do the work, so apsfilter is not neededly required. It can add some functionality. -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
it. Of course best they can do is not to do anything. In fact, they're simply ignoring it. The best they can do with anything that exist. If they would like to really punish MS, fines will be much higher and MEANINGFUL to microsoft. But that's not intended, as you pointed out. The situation SHOULD not change; the question is just: How can we (the EU) get some money out of this situation, and maybe repeat it at another time (which requires that nothing changes)? Still this is not a problem for me as i do not use windows. But it's bad as there are people that use windows because they want to and they should pay only for windows, no extra tax. In the same time they do best possible marketing for microsoft - computer lesson in schools. But i don't opt to change it to use say FreeBSD in schools. I opt for removing computer lessons from public schools. EVEN BETTER - to remove public schools at all, and not getting money for them by taxes. then parents could decide to what private school will children go, what will learn, and pay for it. The government is always a SOURCE, not solution to a problem. deleted part below after reading, as i don't have anything to add... You just exactly described problem of public school's computer lesson. But it's just part of a bigger problem - existence of public schools paid from out taxes. The teachers sometimes even don't have a clue about what they should teach. This is not only on computer lessons. Most teachers are just dumb, because there is no free-market mechanism to do the selection. If teacher will get employed in public school, it's really difficult to fire him/her out. In schools i was, most teachers was simply dumb. I don't require wonders, but knowing basics of physics is quite important requirement of being physics teacher. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
output PS when printing (that's a standard), the data can be sent directly to the printer that processes it. In case of PCL, apsfilter is quite okay, but you can just employ gs to do the work, so apsfilter is not neededly required. It can isn't apsfilter just using gs as backend? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
On Fri, 29 May 2009 15:35:47 +0200 (CEST), Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote: output PS when printing (that's a standard), the data can be sent directly to the printer that processes it. In case of PCL, apsfilter is quite okay, but you can just employ gs to do the work, so apsfilter is not neededly required. It can isn't apsfilter just using gs as backend? As far as I understood, it is. Driven by a text-mode menu, it lets you select printer by category and then uses gs to generate the input fed by an application into the printer's language. It helps to utilize the system's printer spooler. You can make settings regarding quality, printer connection, printer name, and other stuff. It's quite simple and easy to use, in the case you don't want to get hands dirty with /etc/printcap. :-) Anyway, it allows you to do something that CUPS won't: It lets you install a printer that is not attached to the system. Yes, I know, sounds stupid. :-) At the moment, I'm using it with some help by the de- list. I've added some extra gs flags to the configuration which is text file based (very comfortable), now everything works fine over parallel line. (My next goal is to achieve the same via network, shouldn't be a problem, worked before.) -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
[Sorry for the excessive quoting - I couldn't decide which bits to take out] On Friday 29 May 2009 12:48:00 Jerry wrote: On Fri, 29 May 2009 09:34:36 +0200 Jonathan McKeown j.mcke...@ru.ac.za wrote: On Thursday 28 May 2009 22:52:47 Jerry wrote: Did you ever bother to consider that if the printer manufacturers actually formed a consensus on a printer language, some third world county or the EU would probably sue them. Nothing I have seen in 20 years equals the audacity of the EU. As long as no 'standard' no matter how arbitrary, stupid or counter-productive exists, they are in theory safe from the EU. Besides, nothing stifles development as tightly as being bound to an arbitrary 'standard'. What a breathtakingly stupid remark. The EU has acted against two companies (Microsoft and Intel) who have used illegal business methods to protect and extend their monopolies and suppress competition. Or are you suggesting that a format or protocol which is implemented by several different companies, allowing vendors to compete fairly on other grounds (price, features, quality, ... ) while protecting consumers by making it possible for them to move from one vendor to another, is somehow a worse idea than a proprietary format or protocol which is forced into a market-dominating position by illegal tactics such as paying manufacturers extra to incorporate it, or penalising them financially for providing competing products? The concept behind the EU is socialism, pure and simple. It attempts to create an artificial playing field that allows the incompetent to compete with the motivated. It forces those who create new technology to share it, usually sans monetary compensation, with common bottom feeders. A free, open market is the way to encourage development and new ideas and technology. Not some pathetic, socialistic concept. If that's the case, why is no-one trying to use the courts to prevent the use of ODF, a published standard which is now used by several companies and Free Software projects to provide a common format for documents? Once a company dominates a particular market it's held to a different standard than other companies in that market - because the power of the monopoly can be used not only to prevent competition in the original market, but to extend the market domination into new markets, by techniques like product tying, distributing at below cost (effectively drawing subsidy from the original monopoly product) until competitors are driven out of business, and so on. A company has the right to disperse their product as they see fit. I know a socialist like you finds that abhorrent; however, it is never the less true. Tell me, if I wanted to sell you a $300 thousand dollar Ferrari for $10, would you: A: complain to the police or what ever legal authority you feel so fit to complain to; B: slam $10 in my hand in a heart beat? I think we know the answer. You are a hypocrite. Has it ever occurred to you how a company grows and becomes successful? I know, in your world it is by using the Government to squash competition; however, in a truly free society, it is by hard word and giving the consumer what they want at a price they are willing to pay. Basic business 101. Microsoft has been convicted of doing all these things, in US courts, in courts in Asia, and in courts in Europe. These are matters of fact, not opinion. Intel has been convicted of many of these things in courts in Asia and in Europe. The fact that the US system is too supine to take action against these companies doesn't make the EU ``arrogant''. Let's not forget why Unix took off and expanded the way it did: once upon a time the US courts did take antitrust seriously, and prevented ATT using its telco monopoly to expand into market domination of the computer business. The spinelessness of the American court system is that they do not take legal action against European countries that practice reverse discrimination, or the outright breach of copyright laws, etc. I know, you socialists also abhor copyright laws. The concept of an individual actually benefiting from his/her hard work and not having to share it with every scum sucker who comes begging at his door disturbs you. Whoa. I don't think that level of personal attack is appropriate or acceptable behaviour in a public forum. (I call it attack because you clearly regard socialist as a swear word. I'm not a socialist but I don't regard it as an insult. I do regard hypocrite as an insult which I choose to ignore.) Your first paragraph, the one beginning ``the concept behind the EU is socialism, pure and simple'', is essentially the Microsoft party line: the socialist EU wants to steal our hard work and give it away to people who can't stand the heat of competition. The reality is almost the exact opposite: the EU is using competition law to try and restore a level playing field, despite the
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
Whoa. I don't think that level of personal attack is appropriate or acceptable behaviour in a public forum. (I call it attack because you clearly regard socialist as a swear word. I'm not a socialist but I don't regard it as an insult. it's not insult. it's just lethal disease than must be cured or it will destroy civilisation ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
Anyway, it allows you to do something that CUPS won't: It lets you install a printer that is not attached to the system. Yes, I know, sounds stupid. :-) nothing stupid. As CUPS (and lots of modern software) is based on windows-like philosophy even if runs on unix, it's quite natural. Someone decided that the right steps of installing driver is to connect printer and then install, so user HAVE TO FOLLOW the steps. Any departure is simply bad, as main windows-like philosophy theorem is that user are not allowed to think, because of the danger he/she will become a master of his/her own computer, while making him a slave is a target. Only those who are slaves of their own computer, and programs they use, will constantly need help and pay for it. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
On Fri, 29 May 2009 16:04:22 +0200 (CEST), Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote: nothing stupid. As CUPS (and lots of modern software) is based on windows-like philosophy even if runs on unix, it's quite natural. Someone decided that the right steps of installing driver is to connect printer and then install, so user HAVE TO FOLLOW the steps. Allthough CUPS is for UNIX (the U in CUPS), I think it's a bit sad that it doesn't have something that we would call professional mode as an option, where someone who knows what he does can install a printer that is not attached to the system at the moment, or that cannot be autodetected (maybe some dotmatrix or daisywheel printer that is needed to print carbon copies). Any departure is simply bad, as main windows-like philosophy theorem is that user are not allowed to think, because of the danger he/she will become a master of his/her own computer, while making him a slave is a target. Only those who are slaves of their own computer, and programs they use, will constantly need help and pay for it. Translated from a PC commercial: My computer knows who I am, and knows what I want. Another attitude at least famous among german Windows users: If the PC says (!) something, it is alright. Asking for the bankomatcard PIN? Well, enter it! An obscure web page wants your name and postal address in order to let you see the dancing elephants? Go aheead, type it in! The computer will know what it does. For any consequences, the I don't care campaign, set up by the MICROS~1 initiated misbelief that Windows administers itself, has spread terrible results in regards of virus infections, trojans, pirated copies and illegal file sharing. People just don't care, they just want the dancing elephants - for free. The logical implication is that the PC is made responsible for everything the user did wrong. That's why I often think PCs are often personified; apotheosis is the next step (cf. the Forbin Project). Is it possible that people attribute the intelligency to the PC that they don't seem to have theirselves? If you think that's stupid - well, at least it's the reality here. :-) -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
On Fri, 29 May 2009 15:50:45 +0200 Jonathan McKeown j.mcke...@ru.ac.za wrote: [Sorry for the excessive quoting - I couldn't decide which bits to take out] On Friday 29 May 2009 12:48:00 Jerry wrote: On Fri, 29 May 2009 09:34:36 +0200 Jonathan McKeown j.mcke...@ru.ac.za wrote: On Thursday 28 May 2009 22:52:47 Jerry wrote: Did you ever bother to consider that if the printer manufacturers actually formed a consensus on a printer language, some third world county or the EU would probably sue them. Nothing I have seen in 20 years equals the audacity of the EU. As long as no 'standard' no matter how arbitrary, stupid or counter-productive exists, they are in theory safe from the EU. Besides, nothing stifles development as tightly as being bound to an arbitrary 'standard'. What a breathtakingly stupid remark. The EU has acted against two companies (Microsoft and Intel) who have used illegal business methods to protect and extend their monopolies and suppress competition. Or are you suggesting that a format or protocol which is implemented by several different companies, allowing vendors to compete fairly on other grounds (price, features, quality, ... ) while protecting consumers by making it possible for them to move from one vendor to another, is somehow a worse idea than a proprietary format or protocol which is forced into a market-dominating position by illegal tactics such as paying manufacturers extra to incorporate it, or penalising them financially for providing competing products? The concept behind the EU is socialism, pure and simple. It attempts to create an artificial playing field that allows the incompetent to compete with the motivated. It forces those who create new technology to share it, usually sans monetary compensation, with common bottom feeders. A free, open market is the way to encourage development and new ideas and technology. Not some pathetic, socialistic concept. If that's the case, why is no-one trying to use the courts to prevent the use of ODF, a published standard which is now used by several companies and Free Software projects to provide a common format for documents? Once a company dominates a particular market it's held to a different standard than other companies in that market - because the power of the monopoly can be used not only to prevent competition in the original market, but to extend the market domination into new markets, by techniques like product tying, distributing at below cost (effectively drawing subsidy from the original monopoly product) until competitors are driven out of business, and so on. A company has the right to disperse their product as they see fit. I know a socialist like you finds that abhorrent; however, it is never the less true. Tell me, if I wanted to sell you a $300 thousand dollar Ferrari for $10, would you: A: complain to the police or what ever legal authority you feel so fit to complain to; B: slam $10 in my hand in a heart beat? I think we know the answer. You are a hypocrite. Has it ever occurred to you how a company grows and becomes successful? I know, in your world it is by using the Government to squash competition; however, in a truly free society, it is by hard word and giving the consumer what they want at a price they are willing to pay. Basic business 101. Microsoft has been convicted of doing all these things, in US courts, in courts in Asia, and in courts in Europe. These are matters of fact, not opinion. Intel has been convicted of many of these things in courts in Asia and in Europe. The fact that the US system is too supine to take action against these companies doesn't make the EU ``arrogant''. Let's not forget why Unix took off and expanded the way it did: once upon a time the US courts did take antitrust seriously, and prevented ATT using its telco monopoly to expand into market domination of the computer business. The spinelessness of the American court system is that they do not take legal action against European countries that practice reverse discrimination, or the outright breach of copyright laws, etc. I know, you socialists also abhor copyright laws. The concept of an individual actually benefiting from his/her hard work and not having to share it with every scum sucker who comes begging at his door disturbs you. Whoa. I don't think that level of personal attack is appropriate or acceptable behaviour in a public forum. (I call it attack because you clearly regard socialist as a swear word. I'm not a socialist but I don't regard it as an insult. I do regard hypocrite as an insult which I choose to ignore.) Your first paragraph, the one beginning ``the concept behind the EU is socialism, pure and simple'', is essentially the Microsoft party line: the socialist EU wants to steal our hard work and give it away to people who can't stand the heat of competition. The reality is almost the exact opposite: the EU is
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
printer and then install, so user HAVE TO FOLLOW the steps. Allthough CUPS is for UNIX (the U in CUPS), I think it's a bit sad it runs on unix. But it was written by people that thinks windows-way. Like most of new soft for unix. Well it's really bad printer support on unix, lets make it as good as in windows. And yes they did a lot of hard work, just sad they did it that way. Anyway - great work. Translated from a PC commercial: My computer knows who I am, and knows what I want. There wasn't THAT BAD commercials in Poland already. But for sure will. Another attitude at least famous among german Windows users: If the PC says (!) something, it is alright. Asking for the bankomatcard PIN? Well, enter it! An obscure web page wants your name and postal address so make use of it. Pecunia non olet :) MICROS~1 initiated misbelief that Windows administers itself. No it doesn't administer itself. It does administer it's slave. If you think that's stupid - well, at least it's the reality here. :-) While i was always laughing about artifical inteligence ideas, now i found it's possible to make computer as smart or smarter than people. You just need to make people mode dumb :) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
Microsoft. Look up the definition of 'socialism'. Then look at who comprises the EU. Their attempts to 'level the playing field' is nothing more than no sense to explain again things that are clear to anyone that do observe, instead of living in virtual world created by TV. The original suit was a bogus and transparent attempt at protecting Netscape. Funny, when Netscape was #1, nobody said a word. Once Microsoft surpassed them all of the socialist came out of the woodwork and bitched. these all suit about netscape and that microsoft are playing unfair because it adds web browser to windows just ROTFL! What's wrong that they add web browser. They could even add 100 rolls of toilet paper to windows bundle - and so what? They would sell a product parody of OS and 100 rolls of toilet paper, the same as now it sell parody of OS with browser included. Everybody can sell whatever they want. If people want to buy it, or not, is their problem. about product safety here. As far as I know, Microsoft does not produce food products. even with food product it's not government job to check and control food. Competitors could be much better in it, and without getting tax money for it. However, I did see an article recently regarding OpenSSL and a defect in their product. Are you saying that anyone who was effected by the 'bug' has a right to sue the authors of that software. Everybody has right to sue everybody for anything. The question is if they win. Now that is a true socialist. Attack and regulate a company until you put it out of business. And then make few huge companies all controlled by government, and zero competition. withing few years whole country falls, unless government fall first. The basic premise of your argument is that any company or entity that is success should be regulated. I find that concept pure socialistic bullshit. If he really think that way he is just dangerous. strategy that's likely to stand up in court in a shareholder suit. One again, you want 'big brother' aka the government to protect you. The problem is that there are quite a lot of people that like it. And others then suffer from it. Come on now. Are you saying that you do not publicly post any code that you create for anyone to use sans payment? Or are you implying that it is perfectly OK to steal code from any company/individual whose profits exceed yours sans fees? Maybe I should get some government intervention here to see what you are hiding? good idea! There are many truisms in business. Two of my favorite ones are: 1) No legitimate business ever benefited from government intervention. No legitimate business ever benefited from government intervention, UNLESS they paid to someone from government. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Competition law (was Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint)
Quoting Jerry ges...@yahoo.com: Look up the definition of 'socialism'. I know what socialism means. You seem not to. I haven't anywhere advocated state ownership of businesses - in fact I very clearly stated that I believe in a free market with only that level of regulation required to keep it free from monopoly abuse. The original suit was based on laws designed to curtail the railroad industry, actually Rockefeller. The original judge was prejudiced and an appeals court through out most of the suit and required a hearing on the remain portions. The suit eventually was of minimal importance. The appeals court didn't throw out a single one of the court's findings of guilt: they examined the evidence and affirmed every last bit of it. Because the trial judge had spoken to the press before the case was concluded about Microsoft's conduct in his court, they found that his *sentence* was unsafe and asked another court to reconsider it. (Oh, and incidentally Rockefeller was Standard Oil, not railroads). Typical socialist thinking. If you cannot produce a better product, get the government to regulate them for you. Again, I'm not a socialist. I'm not asking any government to overthrow better products in favour of worse ones. I am asking courts to enforce existing laws about unfair competition which suppresses potentially better products. Even a free market requires some regulation of business practices [discussion of clearly illegal and dangerous behaviour] Good idea, change the context of the discussion. We are not talking about product safety here. As far as I know, Microsoft does not produce food products. However, I did see an article recently regarding OpenSSL and a defect in their product. Are you saying that anyone who was effected by the 'bug' has a right to sue the authors of that software. No, I'm not. You're putting words in my mouth. I'm trying to make the point that even a completely free market will need some oversight, because some companies will do anything for a short-term profit, up to and including actually poisoning their customers, if they aren't prevented by regulation. Now that is a true socialist. Attack and regulate a company until you put it out of business. Once again, I'm not a socialist. You keep using that word: I do not think it means what you think it means. I'm also not suggesting attacking companies, only ensuring that they obey the law as it stands. The basic premise of your argument is that any company or entity that is success should be regulated. I find that concept pure socialistic bullshit. No. My basic premise is that every company should be regulated in the same way, and that should include laws to prevent unfair competition. Since unfair competition tends to rely on control of the market, that area of the law has more impact on companies once they achieve a monopoly. Those laws needn't prevent a company establishing or maintaining market dominance by competing fairly and legally. Strangely enough, that is also the basic premise of competition law all over the world. To take a couple of your other points: no, I wouldn't buy your Ferrari ``in a heartbeat''. [snip] People don't sell anything at well below its market value without some form of ulterior motive I never said the product was stolen or pilfered. Those are your assumptions. I create a product and distribute it. It is none of the government's business what I sell it for as long as I pay the tax on it. If your business model is to sell a $300,000 car for $10, the government won't need to intervene. If you manage to stay in business for any length of time they may well start taking an interest - not many people establish a business with the intention of giving away their own money on that scale, and giving away other people's money is generally illegal. For example, there are strict laws in most places governing the sale of goods at below cost (dumping)[...] One again, you want 'big brother' aka the government to protect you. Yes, once again I want the law enforced. Shock horror. Check US anti-dumping laws, the Sherman Act, and competition law generally. You can argue that the law is wrong, but don't try and pretend it isn't the law. I'm not sure where copyright laws suddenly sprang into the equation, but I can assure you, as someone who works with Free software, I'm a firm believer in copyright laws. I don't write much code but it's copyright that prevents people stealing what I do write. Come on now. Are you saying that you do not publicly post any code that you create for anyone to use sans payment? Or are you implying that it is perfectly OK to steal code from any company/individual whose profits exceed yours sans fees? Maybe I should get some government intervention here to see what you are hiding? Er, what? I don't see how on earth you got from ``I'm a firm believer in copyright laws'' to
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
Wojciech Puchar said the following on 2009-05-28 23:06: Poland is now slowly losing independence Poland has never had any independence. Your argument is moot. http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polsk_riksdag http://www.popularhistoria.se/o.o.i.s?id=43vid=344 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
Jerry said the following on 2009-05-28 22:43: Basic law of marketing is to give the public what they want. No. The company CREATES a need for their product. That's the number one rule. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
Jerry said the following on 2009-05-29 12:48: On Fri, 29 May 2009 09:34:36 +0200 The concept behind the EU is socialism, pure and simple. You don't know the meaning of the word socialism It attempts to create an artificial playing field that allows the incompetent to compete with the motivated. So does any other -ism It forces those who create new technology to share it Of course not. if you create something and don't wont to share then don't A free, open market is the way to encourage development and new ideas and technology. There is no such thing as a free market ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
On Wed, 27 May 2009 17:09:05 +0100, Chris Rees utis...@googlemail.com wrote: Seriously, why give up on something because it takes an hour or two out of your day, and carry on the ~seven minute reboot-to-'Windows'-cycle out of laziness? Sounds counter-productive and defeatist. The idea is that doing such complicated things in FreeBSD (and in UNIX in general) teaches things, gives experiences and helps solving oter problems on one's own later. I've often seen similar situations where my solution would be called too complex, but after that, I *learned* things, and this gave me the ability do do things better (faster!) now. So I may say: It's not always the final result that counts, but the way leading to it. Of course, to the average user, learning doesn't count. He is not interested in (1) how things work, (b) how things are done or (3) how things might be done better. He just wants the final result, and he wants it now (or yesterday). :-) I my own printer journey, I had help from the de- list. With the upgrade to 7, apsfilter stopped working as intended. Functions A, B working; C D not working anymore. The help from the list made me have C and D, but A and B stopped then. Finally, I could combine apsfilter settings and several options for gs. Voila! A, B, C and D working again (as in FreeBSD 5). Would I have ever been able to solve such problems without having the need to learn something before? Definitely not. I'm happy I can read such long instructions about how to get stupid non-printers working with a standard compliant operating system, and I always save such instructions locally, because one day, I can solve a problem that the printer manufacturer can't (because he originated it by his lack of standard compliance). -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
On Wed, 27 May 2009 13:37:06 -0400, Jerry ges...@yahoo.com wrote: 2) The technology exists, as demonstrated by Microsoft, to easily configure a printer. It's because MICROS~1 are part of the system that builds the concepts for the printers, and the printers itself. Because of their monopoly positzion, they can say: If you build a printer, make drivers for our 'Windows', and it will sell well. If you make drivers for FreeBSD, which doesn't exist, then it won't sell. By the way, having to use CDs or DVDs to install printer drivers anlong with loads of crapware (that is usually included) doesn't make the situation better. I prefer the system that FreeBSD uses: You install ONE (!) printer system that supports all (standard compliant) printers, and you don't have to do any more work. On a system with no printer, you install nothing. On a system where the printer is changed, you don't need to deinstall driver A and install driver B, you simply alter the printer system's setting. Having to perform Herculean tasks, load extra software; i.e. cups for instance, etc is not productive. CUPS isn't extra software in my opinions. Printer drivers are. Because they are required to make a thing working that does not conform to standards that would have made it work out of the box. 4) My time is valuable. I don't feel like wasting it trying to get a printer to work correctly when it is easier to do on a Win32 box. It is not time well spent. Time spent learning is always worth spending. Remember that we who have learned to get things working are always called when troubles arise, and we are paid to do so. :-) -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
2) The technology exists, as demonstrated by Microsoft, to easily configure a printer. It's because MICROS~1 are part of the system that builds the concepts for the printers, and the printers itself. Because of their monopoly positzion, they can say: If you build a printer, make drivers for our 'Windows', and it will sell well. If you make drivers for FreeBSD, which doesn't exist, then it won't sell. indeed. actually if printers would simply support standards like PCL or postscript and standard USB protocol it would not be need for ANY drivers both for windoze and FreeBSD. The problem is that most buyers are more happy when they get added value for free like tons of CD's Manufacturers do what market required, no matter how dumb it is. Those who didn't already failed. But again it wouldn't be that hard to make printer conforming to standard AND produce (click-generate) few gigs of add on software for windows. As windows user may get scared hearing the word unix, even in context like supports both windows and unix, they could sell the same printer as 2 products - printer for windows (bundled with this few gigs of addons) and printer for unix, bundled with 1 page instruction with an example how to make ghostscript filter and how to configure lpd. included) doesn't make the situation better. I prefer the system that FreeBSD uses: You install ONE (!) printer actually i never used things like cups, turboprint, whatever. i just run lpr to print postscript file, or print directly from programs through lpr system that supports all (standard compliant) printers, and you don't have to do any more work. On a system with There are lot of compliant second-hand printers for 100$. For example i have HP LaserJet 4, which printed 85000 pages when i bought it, and i printed over 15000. And it works flawlessy, so i don't have new printer every year. Having to perform Herculean tasks, load extra software; i.e. cups for instance, etc is not productive. CUPS isn't extra software in my opinions. Printer drivers are. exactly. it's not needed for printing. In unix many many years ago printing subsystem was already written. it's called lpd, and it has support for filters that can be considered drivers. 4) My time is valuable. I don't feel like wasting it trying to get a printer to work correctly when it is easier to do on a Win32 box. It is not time well spent. assuming someone has windows box handy. one more computer just to print doesn't make much sense :) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
2009/5/27 Jerry ges...@yahoo.com: On Wed, 27 May 2009 17:09:05 +0100 Chris Rees utis...@googlemail.com wrote: Seriously, why give up on something because it takes an hour or two out of your day, and carry on the ~seven minute reboot-to-'Windows'-cycle out of laziness? Sounds counter-productive and defeatist. 1) You are assuming that the same PC contains both Windows FBSD. So you suggest leaving one computer running 'Windows' on solely as a print server? Is that an efficient use of power, space and hardware? Chris -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in a mailing list? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
On Thu, 28 May 2009 12:13:42 +0100 Chris Rees utis...@googlemail.com wrote: So you suggest leaving one computer running 'Windows' on solely as a print server? Is that an efficient use of power, space and hardware? 1) You are assuming it is only one PC. Actually, there are several. 2) Considering FLASH support in FBSD sucks, I find that I regularly need the use of a Win PC. There are also numerous applications that I just do not have available on an X-desktop. While FBSD has many fine uses, primarily in the server department, it is solely lacking as a full service desktop replacement for me. I realize that Xorg is a major cause of that problem, but that is not my concern. By the way, using a headless Win PC as a print server takes up virtually no space, its power consumption is inconsequential, and I am not even sure what other hardware, perhaps a UPS, you are referring to. Considering that I can have any number of printers hooked up easily and get higher print quality, I find it an extremely useful option. For the record, I only have three printers hooked up at my residency at present. Two of them being wireless. Attempting to get them working under FBSD became a real exercise in pain. In Windows, it was a simple two minute operation. If I am at work, and they are willing to pay me to play with something, that is one thing. However, I will be damned if I am going to waste my time when a simpler and more efficient method is available. In any case, Sulum ut suus or chacun a son gout if you prefer. -- Jerry ges...@yahoo.com The chief enemy of creativity is good sense. Picasso signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
2) Considering FLASH support in FBSD sucks, I find that I regularly need there are no flash support in FreeBSD as there are no support for internet explorer or Wojtek's super-ultra-super software (if that exist ;). It's not FreeBSD job at all, but programmer job of that software. It's an operating system that allow running ANY programs, with the only requirement to be in FreeBSD ELF format and using .so libraries and system calls that are in base system. Taking into account how simple is to port any program from linux to FreeBSD, and that Adobe Flash already runs linux, it's simple that Adobe simply don't want to extends their userbase to FreeBSD for almost free. So as they don't want me to use it, i don't use it. If i would consider flash so important to have separate computer for this, and in the same time accept how Adobe treats me, i will just buy it. But it have nothing to do with FreeBSD support. Sorry for long post about it, but i DO HAVE to correct your wrong statement. the use of a Win PC. There are also numerous applications that I just do not have available on an X-desktop. What you mean X desktop? You mean X Window System? While FBSD has many fine uses, primarily in the server department, it is solely lacking as a full service desktop replacement for me. I As usual it depends on needs - for me it provides all i need for operating system. But it's really off-topic By the way, using a headless Win PC as a print server takes up virtually no space, its power consumption is inconsequential, and I am not even anyway buing standard-compliant printer seems like simpler and cheaper solution for me. Even if it would be slightly more expensive, i would prefer it, to keep things simple. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
On Thu, 28 May 2009 14:42:31 +0200 (CEST) Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote: 2) Considering FLASH support in FBSD sucks, I find that I regularly need there are no flash support in FreeBSD as there are no support for internet explorer or Wojtek's super-ultra-super software (if that exist ;). It's not FreeBSD job at all, but programmer job of that software. It's an operating system that allow running ANY programs, with the only requirement to be in FreeBSD ELF format and using .so libraries and system calls that are in base system. Taking into account how simple is to port any program from linux to FreeBSD, and that Adobe Flash already runs linux, it's simple that Adobe simply don't want to extends their userbase to FreeBSD for almost free. So as they don't want me to use it, i don't use it. If i would consider flash so important to have separate computer for this, and in the same time accept how Adobe treats me, i will just buy it. But it have nothing to do with FreeBSD support. Sorry for long post about it, but i DO HAVE to correct your wrong statement. Actually, you are a troll. the use of a Win PC. There are also numerous applications that I just do not have available on an X-desktop. What you mean X desktop? You mean X Window System? While FBSD has many fine uses, primarily in the server department, it is solely lacking as a full service desktop replacement for me. I As usual it depends on needs - for me it provides all i need for operating system. But it's really off-topic Now that is a truly stupid statement. The usefulness of any OS or applications is directly proportionate to the end users intended purpose. By the way, using a headless Win PC as a print server takes up virtually no space, its power consumption is inconsequential, and I am not even anyway buing standard-compliant printer seems like simpler and cheaper solution for me. Even if it would be slightly more expensive, i would prefer it, to keep things simple. First it is simpler and cheaper' then 'more expensive'. Nothing like a firm commitment to ambiquity. The bottom line is that using a Win PC box for a print server saves me countless hours of frustration. I know that I can purchase virtually any printer on the market today and have it up and running on the Windows box in a few minutes. Can you say the same thing about a FBSD box? Not even close. The idea behind any venture, be it personal or business, is to find the cheapest and most efficient solution for a given problem. I have found one that works just fine for me. -- Jerry ges...@yahoo.com To envision how a 4-processor system running [SunOS] 4.1.x works, think of four kids and one bathroom. John DiMarco signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
this, and in the same time accept how Adobe treats me, i will just buy it. But it have nothing to do with FreeBSD support. Sorry for long post about it, but i DO HAVE to correct your wrong statement. Actually, you are a troll. thank you very much. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
On Thu, 28 May 2009 12:09:57 +0200 (CEST), Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote: The problem is that most buyers are more happy when they get added value for free like tons of CD's Even if they never use it. Manufacturers do what market required, no matter how dumb it is. Those who didn't already failed. The worst solution always prevails and People want crap, they get crap seem to have established as laws of the market. As windows user may get scared hearing the word unix, [...] No no, UNIX doesn't exist, and it's outdated anyway, just like mainframes. :-) actually i never used things like cups, turboprint, whatever. Me neither, just apsfilter. i just run lpr to print postscript file, or print directly from programs through lpr I'm happy to keep on doing so now, too. :-) There are lot of compliant second-hand printers for 100$. I got two HP Laserjet 4000 duplex printers some years ago, for 100 Euro (both together), including so much toner that they're still working - and I'm printing a lot. For example i have HP LaserJet 4, which printed 85000 pages when i bought it, and i printed over 15000. My Laserjet 4000, my first own laser printer, has already stopped couinting pages, it shows 1500 pages or so and doesn't count any further. I've treated it very unkindly for more than 12 years now - and it keeps on working. And it works flawlessy, so i don't have new printer every year. That's intended by the marked (because users intend so). Buying new printers all day long is normal, so you always have a top of the line printer. :-) exactly. [CUPS] not needed for printing. At least for the many printers that don't conform to standards, if makes printing a bit easier. Nice administration through web interface, lots of autodetect... users like this. :-) (On the other hand, it's problematic to add a parallel printer with CUPS that isn't attached to the system - bad idea in my opinion, just because the printer isn't available AT THE MOMENT should not disable me to select it.) -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
On Thu, 28 May 2009 14:42:31 +0200 (CEST), Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote: While FBSD has many fine uses, primarily in the server department, it is solely lacking as a full service desktop replacement for me. I As usual it depends on needs - for me it provides all i need for operating system. But it's really off-topic I may add that I'm using FreeBSD exclusively (!) on my desktop since version 4.0 without any problems. I just don't describe the use desktop with runs 'Flash' flawlessly. As Wojciech siad, it completely depends on what you are going to do with your system. The FreeBSD OS is just the basis for this, not the entire means. By the way, using a headless Win PC as a print server takes up virtually no space, its power consumption is inconsequential, and I am not even anyway buing standard-compliant printer seems like simpler and cheaper solution for me. It's worth mentioning that you need to buy along with the printer: the PC and the license for Windows. I'm not sure what this costs altogether, but maybe it justifies buying an office-class printer that is fully standard-compliant and will serve you more years than a non-printer would. Even if it would be slightly more expensive, i would prefer it, to keep things simple. Doesn't even need to be more expensive. It just depends on how much time (and here we are again) you spend on researching and evaluating which product is the best for your particular needs. -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
On Thu, 28 May 2009 09:09:41 -0400, Jerry ges...@yahoo.com wrote: Actually, you are a troll. Actually, I allow myself to tell you that this is untrue. :-) He's right. FreeBSD is an advanced operating system that provides basic means to drivers and applications (and to do some other things). So it enables application programmers to write their programs for this platform. If they refuse to, why blame the system? As it has truthfully been mentioned, it would be possible for Adobe to release a native version of Flash for FreeBSD, even if they don't put their sources into BSDL. But they don't want to. (It's their right to do so, of course.) Now that is a truly stupid statement. The usefulness of any OS or applications is directly proportionate to the end users intended purpose. No. The end user doesn't use the operating system, he uses his application programs (which, of course, depend on the operating system in many ways). That's how the usefulness of an application can be judged. The usefulness of an operating system is to be considered in terms of how good it provides ressources, documentation, inter- faces, standards, compatibility maybe. And in this case FreeBSD is excellent. The bottom line is that using a Win PC box for a print server saves me countless hours of frustration. Then it's completely fine for you, no disagreement. The question is - if you're interested in it: What have you learned? How does it help you in more difficult situations where you are presented to a specific setting and have to work with means on board (Bordmittel)? I know that I can purchase virtually any printer on the market today and have it up and running on the Windows box in a few minutes. Until a new printer doesn't support your Windows version anymore, or your new !Windows version doesn't support your printer anymore. Can you say the same thing about a FBSD box? Not even close. This is intended to be that way. The printer manufactureres and the majority of their customers decided it. The idea behind any venture, be it personal or business, is to find the cheapest and most efficient solution for a given problem. I have found one that works just fine for me. Then again, it's okay for you, even if I don't consider it cheap (exta PC purchase, PC running, license) or most efficient (exta PC needed). -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 06:31:41PM +0200, Polytropon wrote:
As it has truthfully been mentioned, it would be possible for
Adobe to release a native version of Flash for FreeBSD, even
if they don't put their sources into BSDL. But they don't want
to. (It's their right to do so, of course.)
More likely, they simply decided that supporting our OS was not worth
it, because we don't have the user base of Win32 or Linux.
Can you say the same thing about a FBSD
box? Not even close.
This is intended to be that way. The printer manufactureres and
the majority of their customers decided it.
Basically put: you get what you pay for. Classic (non-win) printers do
have circuitry on board to process PCL or PostScript, whereas
el-cheapo win-printers come without this circuitry, and delegate
pagesetting to a software driver. Same for modems vs. win-modems.
Of course, all this is well-known for a long time now. But what's
worrying, is that economics of scale make it increasingly difficult to
locate classic printers (and modems). Fortunatly, they are still being
made here and there, but for how long? What will we do a few years
down the road in an environment where win-${device}s are ubiquitous?
Ultimately, we'll need a full-featured windowsolator a la NDISwrapper
et al., so that we can use the Windows-only drivers natively on
FreeBSD/{i386,amd64}. At least x86-based systems will then work,
although ARM and other platforms would still be left out in the cold.
-cpghost.
--
Cordula's Web. http://www.cordula.ws/
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Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
On Thu, 28 May 2009 19:09:09 +0200, cpghost cpgh...@cordula.ws wrote:
Basically put: you get what you pay for.
That was true in the past, but today, it's much more complicated
than just regularing an article's quality over the price. You
can - without any problems - get crap for (too) much money. You
pay for a brand name, or a standard's name, but you get crap.
I've seen a good example recently: A DVD recorder built (or
at least sold) by a company name most users are familiar with,
which quitted working after 1 year of regular use, and a
similar recorder by a manufacturer that's not so widely known,
which still works today. The known one was nearly 100 Euro
more expensive than the unknown one.
Classic (non-win) printers do
have circuitry on board to process PCL or PostScript, whereas
el-cheapo win-printers come without this circuitry, and delegate
pagesetting to a software driver.
Exactly. Even el-anachronismo dotmatrix printers could turn
simple text, transmitted to the parallel port, into printed
form. Today's el-stupido printers can't.
Can't print easily, but pretend to be more than they are (in
terms of overall quality, to which I add support for standards
or at least existance of a proper BSD driver): The include
a printer, a scanner, a fax machine and who knows what else...
Same for modems vs. win-modems.
Exacltly. Those leave more to do for the computer that controls
it, and generates much more work for the processor, while the
easier variant would just be to transfer the data to the
device and let it print, even if it's just PCL.
Of course, all this is well-known for a long time now. But what's
worrying, is that economics of scale make it increasingly difficult to
locate classic printers (and modems).
Yes. In most cases, you stick to 2nd hand office-class equipment.
It's bigger, may make more noise, but the history teaches that
it makes you more happy. :-)
Fortunatly, they are still being
made here and there, but for how long?
Customers do control this. A nice example are the IBM model M
keyboards. There are manufacturers that provide the quality and
the layout (without advertising keys) of these keyboards. (I'm
glad to own some of the original IBM ones, they will live longer
than I will.)
What will we do a few years
down the road in an environment where win-${device}s are ubiquitous?
Scenario A is to keep using used older equipment and to keep it
running by adequate means.
Scenario B is to use means of emulation and virtualization.
But more likely, this won't happen.
History has told, future will tell.
Ultimately, we'll need a full-featured windowsolator a la NDISwrapper
et al., so that we can use the Windows-only drivers natively on
FreeBSD/{i386,amd64}.
That would conform to scenario B, but I'm sure we won't have to
think about it very much, because Windows is not the world. :-)
At least x86-based systems will then work,
although ARM and other platforms would still be left out in the cold.
Does Windows run on ARM? I'm sure UNIX does.
With the upcoming interest in ARM-based Netbooks 'n stuff I think
it will be less and less important. Today, Linux is more interesting
to industry and to enterprises than Windows is. I do see this in
Germany: Windows is considered more and more to be old-fashioned
(not very much in fact, but slightly increasing).
I hope this trend continues, so printer manufacturers (and those
that built other stuff used together with computers) will change
their attitude towards interoperability and standards.
--
Polytropon
From Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
Actually, you are a troll. Actually, I allow myself to tell you that this is untrue. :-) but i said thank you for such nomination. i feel proud :) I'm waiting for certified professional FreeBSD Troll (TM) printed and laminated certificate! should i give a snail-mail address? He's right. FreeBSD is an advanced operating system that provides basic means to drivers and applications (and to do some other things). So it enables application programmers to write their programs for this platform. If they refuse to, why blame the system? I don't know. FreeBSD folks actually did A LOT OF WORK that they wasn't even supposed to do, and did it for free! Instead of hearing Thank you, you made it at least partially working! they here FreeBSD FLASH support is a CRAP. Not polite and really they deserve better reward. As it has truthfully been mentioned, it would be possible for ...this parts removed as i fully agree and have nothing to add... Until a new printer doesn't support your Windows version anymore, or your new !Windows version doesn't support your printer anymore. It was his problem, and just don't care about him. But i really hate that such lazy people that prefer buying new computers instead of thinking - tries to TEACH others that it's the right way to go. Being lazy is bad. Not thinking is bad. I am sometimes lazy and not always think as good as i would like, but i don't tell people it is OK! It is not! ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
That was true in the past, but today, it's much more complicated than just regularing an article's quality over the price. You can - without any problems - get crap for (too) much money. You pay for a brand name, or a standard's name, but you get crap. HP products (printers, cameras, and other office equipment) are really perfect examples. I mean new HP products, not those 10-20 years ago where HP was expensive but really good. Exactly. Even el-anachronismo dotmatrix printers could turn simple text, transmitted to the parallel port, into printed form. Today's el-stupido printers can't. I don't agree it's bad idea of removing processing hardware from printer. It's good idea as such processing is a blink of eye for today computers. The problem is that there is NO STANDARD for raw bitmap printers. If it would - then just adding this to ghostscript would be few hours of work. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
The problem is that most buyers are more happy when they get added value for free like tons of CD's Even if they never use it. but they HAVE. You probably observed already that lots of people buy things to HAVE them. You are right. Manufacturers do what market required, no matter how dumb it is. Those who didn't already failed. The worst solution always prevails and People want crap, they get crap seem to have established as laws of the market. Not all people, but most. The problem is that there are less and less people that do not want a crap. Low enough that making products for them isn't a business. As windows user may get scared hearing the word unix, [...] No no, UNIX doesn't exist, and it's outdated anyway, just like mainframes. :-) oh yes i forgot. i just run lpr to print postscript file, or print directly from programs through lpr I'm happy to keep on doing so now, too. :-) 99.999% basic things that user needs is already invented on unix for even 20 or more years. Now we have more and more new technologies that reinvent it most more inefficient and overcomplex way. Even more - complexity is always marketed as adventage. That's intended by the marked (because users intend so). Buying new printers all day long is normal, so you always have a top of the line printer. :-) that will break down within at most 2 years. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
I may add that I'm using FreeBSD exclusively (!) on my desktop since version 4.0 without any problems. I just don't describe the use desktop with runs 'Flash' flawlessly. As Wojciech still today i don't get explanation what is desktop usage. Well my second computer stays on the desk. is it desktop usage? your system. The FreeBSD OS is just the basis for this, not the entire means. Today there is a problem with global computer disinformation, started first by microsoft, but now continued by many else. Most common misconception is calling Operating System huge set of OS itself, tons of programs, GUI interfaces and even web browser. This make confusement on that list VERY often. Statements like FreeBSD doesn't support FLASH well are perfect examples. Wouldn't be just clear to say Adobe doesn't support FLASH under FreeBSD? So little change, and much closer to reality. printer: the PC and the license for Windows. I'm not sure what this costs altogether, but maybe it justifies buying an office-class printer that is fully standard-compliant and will serve you more years than a non-printer would. Windows is usually OEM'ed, but it still costs over 50$ in price, not mentioning NEW computer. 250$ is probably the lowest price of computer with windows licence included, without monitor. Even expensive standard compliant printer is cheaper, and much easier to use. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
On Thu, 28 May 2009 21:29:40 +0200 (CEST), Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote: but i said thank you for such nomination. i feel proud :) I'm waiting for certified professional FreeBSD Troll (TM) printed and laminated certificate! should i give a snail-mail address? Write a letter to Redmond, they usually pay good if you are willing to propagate their opinion. :-) FreeBSD folks actually did A LOT OF WORK that they wasn't even supposed to do, and did it for free! Instead of hearing Thank you, you made it at least partially working! they here FreeBSD FLASH support is a CRAP. Not polite and really they deserve better reward. I didn't say that FreeBSD's Flash support is crap, but in my opinion, Flash itself is crap as long as (a) it is mostly used to pollute the web and annoy its users, (b) used in a manner that often leaves no way to get around it and (c) it isn't a standard. Of course those who invest their time to make something work on FreeBSD that the original inventor had not designed to run on FreeBSD deserve a big Thank you, good work. It was his problem, and just don't care about him. But i really hate that such lazy people that prefer buying new computers instead of thinking - tries to TEACH others that it's the right way to go. Because the right way always depends on what someone is going to do with a computer, his way may be the right way for him, but the wrong way for e. g. me. Being lazy is bad. Not thinking is bad. I am sometimes lazy and not always think as good as i would like, but i don't tell people it is OK! It is not! Thinking and ivesting time for learning is - for some people - the only way to get through life. They entirely depend on others who (re)install their PCs, attach their printers and get things done. In the result, those people say: Wow, I'm so clever, that was really easy! I'm a Program Manager! (I really met a person who called from himself as being a Program Manager.) -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
On Thu, 28 May 2009 21:43:32 +0200 (CEST), Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote: I don't agree it's bad idea of removing processing hardware from printer. It's good idea as such processing is a blink of eye for today computers. in general, I would agree, but some BASIC FUNCTIONALITY should be brought by the printer itself, and if it's only ASCII printing, so things like % ls /etc /dev/ulpt0 would work. For simple things, it's completely okay. The problem is that there is NO STANDARD for raw bitmap printers. If it would - then just adding this to ghostscript would be few hours of work. Exactly, THAT's the problem. If all manufacturers would agree to have a certain standard about how printers can receive bitmapped content, everything would be easy. But as I said, printer manu- facturers don't intend to do so, because customers seem to like the shiny discs they need to spend some time with before being able to actually use their new printer. :-) -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
I'm waiting for certified professional FreeBSD Troll (TM) printed and laminated certificate! should i give a snail-mail address? Write a letter to Redmond, they usually pay good if you are willing to propagate their opinion. :-) i want this certificate from man who call me troll, not Micro$oft. FreeBSD folks actually did A LOT OF WORK that they wasn't even supposed to do, and did it for free! Instead of hearing Thank you, you made it at least partially working! they here FreeBSD FLASH support is a CRAP. Not polite and really they deserve better reward. I didn't say that FreeBSD's Flash support is crap, but in my You did not. Someone before said this. on FreeBSD deserve a big Thank you, good work. exactly. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
in general, I would agree, but some BASIC FUNCTIONALITY should be brought by the printer itself, and if it's only ASCII printing, so things like % ls /etc /dev/ulpt0 what's wrong in ls /etc|lpr ? Exactly, THAT's the problem. If all manufacturers would agree to have a certain standard about how printers can receive bitmapped it's even easier to set up that standard than it was to set up PCL standard. USB allows two-side communication and virtual pipes. so one pipe - printer control, command and response method, most important command - get printer capabilities like resolutions supported, color supported or not as MUST BE in standard, all extras like configuring paper source, setting up printer specific options (say toner economy mode) - optional. Another command - set mode (like 600 dpi, blackwhite). second pipe - just getting raw bitmap. incredibly simple to implement both in printer and software. but looks like too difficult for manufacturers. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
On Thu, 28 May 2009 22:24:46 +0200 (CEST), Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote: in general, I would agree, but some BASIC FUNCTIONALITY should be brought by the printer itself, and if it's only ASCII printing, so things like % ls /etc /dev/ulpt0 what's wrong in ls /etc|lpr ? The problem is that by default, no printer is talked to. If the printer has PS or PCL, gs or even apsfilter will help. The above command works, for example, with a line printer (dotmatrix printer) with NO driver, even works with a HP Laserjet - it uses the built-in text fonts to print the text. I just wish modern printers would at least have a single font for text printing - and finally a driver for FreeBSD (or much better, a standard compliance that makes use of PS, PCL or something similar). it's even easier to set up that standard than it was to set up PCL standard. [...] incredibly simple to implement both in printer and software. but looks like too difficult for manufacturers. When they would tell on the box Works with every system, no driver needed, the customer would surely think that something is missing, like batteries not includec - What? I have to buy extra batteries? No way! :-) -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
The above command works, for example, with a line printer (dotmatrix printer) with NO driver, even works with a HP Laserjet - it uses the built-in text fonts to print the text. You exaggerate, configuring /etc/printcap and filter is natural part of printer installation. incredibly simple to implement both in printer and software. but looks like too difficult for manufacturers. When they would tell on the box Works with every system, no driver needed. As i already told, manufacturer don't need to say this, instead say the same as already says. Just sell THE SAME PRINTER with different product name/number as unix printer. And instead of attaching 5GB of super extra important stuff, just attach 1 page instruction about how to configure postscript filter by say ghostscript or maybe URL on their site with examples ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
On Thu, 28 May 2009 21:12:43 +0200 (CEST) Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote: The problem is that most buyers are more happy when they get added value for free like tons of CD's Even if they never use it. but they HAVE. You probably observed already that lots of people buy things to HAVE them. You are right. That is an incredibly stupid statement. While a user may buy a product that contains additional software that they do not require, they are never-the-less buying a product that they want. You statement, buy things to HAVE them makes no sense. Of course they buy something because they want it. Do you buy products that you do not want? And yes, I buy things to have them. Why else would I buy them? Manufacturers do what market required, no matter how dumb it is. Those who didn't already failed. The worst solution always prevails and People want crap, they get crap seem to have established as laws of the market. Not all people, but most. The problem is that there are less and less people that do not want a crap. Basic law of marketing is to give the public what they want. Any first year business student knows that. The statement that The worst solution always prevails is totally bogus. Furthermore, your statement, The problem is that there are less and less people that do not want a crap. would appear to go counter to what you have been bantering about. Do you actually THINK before you write or are you implying that most people would like to be constipated? Low enough that making products for them isn't a business. As windows user may get scared hearing the word unix, [...] Yes, vary similar to how unix users feel about plug play. No no, UNIX doesn't exist, and it's outdated anyway, just like mainframes. :-) oh yes i forgot. i just run lpr to print postscript file, or print directly from programs through lpr I'm happy to keep on doing so now, too. :-) 99.999% basic things that user needs is already invented on unix for even 20 or more years. Now we have more and more new technologies that reinvent it most more inefficient and overcomplex way. Even more - complexity is always marketed as adventage. That's intended by the marked (because users intend so). Buying new printers all day long is normal, so you always have a top of the line printer. :-) Actually, when it costs me $49. to re-ink a cheap printer and only $39. to buy a new one, is is almost easier to simply swap the old one out, then give it away as a donation and take the tax credit. I have actually done that by the way. that will break down within at most 2 years. Actually, I have an old Canon bubble jet 6000 that still works although it is on its last legs and probably ten years old.. In any case, with most simple printers being dirt cheap, why should I care it they last twenty years or not. Now, buying a $3000 color laser jet is a totally different matter. -- Jerry ges...@yahoo.com Prisons are built with stones of Law, brothels with bricks of Religion. Blake signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
On Thu, 28 May 2009 22:06:40 +0200 Polytropon free...@edvax.de wrote: On Thu, 28 May 2009 21:43:32 +0200 (CEST), Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote: I don't agree it's bad idea of removing processing hardware from printer. It's good idea as such processing is a blink of eye for today computers. in general, I would agree, but some BASIC FUNCTIONALITY should be brought by the printer itself, and if it's only ASCII printing, so things like % ls /etc /dev/ulpt0 would work. For simple things, it's completely okay. The problem is that there is NO STANDARD for raw bitmap printers. If it would - then just adding this to ghostscript would be few hours of work. Exactly, THAT's the problem. If all manufacturers would agree to have a certain standard about how printers can receive bitmapped content, everything would be easy. But as I said, printer manu- facturers don't intend to do so, because customers seem to like the shiny discs they need to spend some time with before being able to actually use their new printer. :-) Did you ever bother to consider that if the printer manufacturers actually formed a consensus on a printer language, some third world county or the EU would probably sue them. Nothing I have seen in 20 years equals the audacity of the EU. As long as no 'standard' no matter how arbitrary, stupid or counter-productive exists, they are in theory safe from the EU. Besides, nothing stifles development as tightly as being bound to an arbitrary 'standard'. -- Jerry ges...@yahoo.com You can't expect a boy to be vicious till he's been to a good school. H. H. Munro signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
On Thu, 28 May 2009 22:33:20 +0200 (CEST), Wojciech Puchar woj...@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl wrote: You exaggerate, configuring /etc/printcap and filter is natural part of printer installation. [...] As i already told, manufacturer don't need to say this, instead say the same as already says. Just sell THE SAME PRINTER with different product name/number as unix printer. And instead of attaching 5GB of super extra important stuff, just attach 1 page instruction about how to configure postscript filter by say ghostscript or maybe URL on their site with examples Yes, of course. I'm nearly out of brain capacity because I had to read through more than 300 messages today. =^_^= -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
but they HAVE. You probably observed already that lots of people buy things to HAVE them. You are right. That is an incredibly stupid statement. This is an incredibly stupid behaviour, but unfortunately true. While a user may buy a product that contains additional software that they do not require, they are never-the-less buying a product that they want. You statement, buy things to HAVE them makes no sense. Of course they buy something Your explanations are theoretical. And you are right this people behaviour doesn't indeed make sense. But it's a normal. Not just printers, i ask people why they got this new cellphone. Because it has this,this,java, etc. etc. Do you use that functions? No Not all people, but most. The problem is that there are less and less people that do not want a crap. Basic law of marketing is to give the public what they want. Exactly right. I don't say that it's wrong, but about how people act. It's just observation of things that can be classified as law of nature. nothing else. That's intended by the marked (because users intend so). Buying new printers all day long is normal, so you always have a top of the line printer. :-) Actually, when it costs me $49. to re-ink a cheap printer and only $39. to buy a new one, is is almost easier to simply swap the old one out, that's why i don't buy ink printer. Because it's so costly to reink. Compared to my laser that prints ca 7000 pages for 25$ cartridge. Original costs almost 100$ but polish-produced compatible one is as good if not better. then give it away as a donation and take the tax credit. I have actually done that by the way. Everything that allows you not to pay tax is a good thing. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
Did you ever bother to consider that if the printer manufacturers actually formed a consensus on a printer language, some third world county or the EU would probably sue them. for setting up open standard? why? while i probably have similar (or worse) opinion about EU, to which Poland is now slowly losing independence, i never heard about any EU process for setting up OPEN standard. They are rather experts of suing Micro$oft. This is just one another way of taking tax from us, Microsoft just pays the fine, divides it by amount of sold windoze licences and add this to price, while still doing things the same as before. But it's not a problem for me, i don't buy windows so i don't have to pay that tax. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
On Thu, 28 May 2009 16:43:10 -0400, Jerry ges...@yahoo.com wrote: You statement, buy things to HAVE them makes no sense. I may politely disagree. I know several people who bought a new high-end PC and stuff for more than 3000 Euro and are treating it as a worse typewriter. Some stuff has never been used - it just sits on the table to make its ownler look wealthy and smart. Of course they buy something because they want it. In some cases, they want it in order to have it (or the intention to show it to others). Do you buy products that you do not want? If I needed the product... okay, that can be seen as wanting, too. For example, I didn't want to buy a HP Laserjet 4000 duplex, but requirements made me need it - I was completely comfortable with the Laserjet 4. And yes, I buy things to have them. Why else would I buy them? The statement was like ONLY to have them (with the slight connotation of have them, but not use them). Basic law of marketing is to give the public what they want. Any first year business student knows that. And because many customers simply do not know what they need, and in conclusion do not know what they want, seem to want the same as the rich neighbor has - or the same pictures like at work. The statement that The worst solution always prevails is totally bogus. Is it? I don't think so. USB, for example, was fine for things like keyboards and mice, but is used for nearly everything today - even in the times of USB 1 that was really slow and needed polling (instead of IRQ); inkjet printers, inferior in price and quality to laser printers; flat panel screens with strange color interpretation; the mouse with only two buttons; autodetection that does not work; CDs and DVDs not the size of a MD; Windows, ... I could go on for hours. :-) It's just my personal observation that is confirmed nearly every day. Low enough that making products for them isn't a business. As windows user may get scared hearing the word unix, [...] Yes, vary similar to how unix users feel about plug play. Personally, I don't have a problem with plug play. All my hardware works that way: I plug it in, and it just works. This has nothing to do with Windows - I have it in UNIX all day long. :-) Furthermore, UNIX doesn't exist in the Windows zone. Actually, when it costs me $49. to re-ink a cheap printer and only $39. to buy a new one, is is almost easier to simply swap the old one out, then give it away as a donation and take the tax credit. I have actually done that by the way. For example, I'd accept inkjet printers only with full cartridges. If empty, I'd throw it away. :-) No, seriously: I don't own an inkjet printer and never have, and I think I never will, instead save some money for a color laser printer, but actually, I don't need to print in color. I have a neighbor who does this kindfully for me (but I never used that service). Actually, I have an old Canon bubble jet 6000 that still works although it is on its last legs and probably ten years old. That's the good thing with older hardware: It seems to last longer than modern stuff. As I said, I own a Laserjet 4 for more than 12 years now and always heavily used it. My keyboard is even older, nearly 20 years old. Let's see how much modern stuff from today will still work in 2030. :-) In any case, with most simple printers being dirt cheap, why should I care it they last twenty years or not. Throw-away society. Now, buying a $3000 color laser jet is a totally different matter. Yes, definitely not my price class at the moment. -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
Well, the fact is if you want an easier way, find someone to fix it for you. But man, if ya wanna change to *NIX, become a sysadmin better and go. You'll see that it's not that hard, is VERY SIMPLE, only ya've gotta get accostumed. Jerry-107 wrote: On Mon, 25 May 2009 12:01:49 -0700 (PDT) kristian.tenorio kristian.teno...@gmail.com wrote: Nice, go on using Windows, Jerry. I will use my FreeBSD Box. But I'd like to point out that my earlier solution is not that good. I'm going to fix it here, Jerry and I'm sure this'll be interesting for Chandan. Nice, go on TOP POSTING. I prefer to post in a more logical way. Seriously, one of the major problems I face when trying to get an associate or friend to try a non Windows solution is printing. Windows users are use to just sticking a CD in the box, installing the driver and whatever other programs the distributor has assembled for them, and then printing. *nix systems have never been really 'printer' friendly. If we are ever going to increase the market share, improving the whole printer 'experience' needs to be given some serious consideration. Personally, I cannot see a child or even many adults, going through the convoluted steps you have described needed to get a simple printer to work. There has to be a better way. Then again, that is just my 2¢ on the matter. -- Jerry ges...@yahoo.com Alas, how love can trifle with itself! William Shakespeare, The Two Gentlemen of Verona -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-Canon-printer-and-TurboPrint-tp7752609p23743923.html Sent from the freebsd-questions mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
2009/5/26 Polytropon free...@edvax.de: Jerry, please excuse my reply, but I think you're not right, and unfair. snip / Atleast in Germany, they let a computer literate friend do this, because they are not able to, not willing to, or just too lazy. :-) snip / -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... It's not just in Germany... in the UK too. Seriously, why give up on something because it takes an hour or two out of your day, and carry on the ~seven minute reboot-to-'Windows'-cycle out of laziness? Sounds counter-productive and defeatist. Chris -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in a mailing list? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
On Wed, 27 May 2009 17:09:05 +0100 Chris Rees utis...@googlemail.com wrote: Seriously, why give up on something because it takes an hour or two out of your day, and carry on the ~seven minute reboot-to-'Windows'-cycle out of laziness? Sounds counter-productive and defeatist. 1) You are assuming that the same PC contains both Windows FBSD. 2) The technology exists, as demonstrated by Microsoft, to easily configure a printer. Having to perform Herculean tasks, load extra software; i.e. cups for instance, etc is not productive. 3) Personally, I have found it easier to print from the FBSD box to the Win box. As a bonus, the print quality is usually of a higher quality that I can get using a driver built for my FBSD box using the same printer attached directly to the FBSD box. Amazingly, Windows has no trouble recognizing a printer attached to the FBSD PC, installing a driver and then using it with virtually with no user intervention. 4) My time is valuable. I don't feel like wasting it trying to get a printer to work correctly when it is easier to do on a Win32 box. It is not time well spent. -- Jerry ges...@yahoo.com There is no cure for birth and death other than to enjoy the interval. George Santayana signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
Jerry, please excuse my reply, but I think you're not right, and unfair. On Mon, 25 May 2009 15:48:16 -0400, Jerry ges...@yahoo.com wrote: Seriously, one of the major problems I face when trying to get an associate or friend to try a non Windows solution is printing. Windows users are use to just sticking a CD in the box, installing the driver and whatever other programs the distributor has assembled for them, and then printing. Atleast in Germany, they let a computer literate friend do this, because they are not able to, not willing to, or just too lazy. :-) *nix systems have never been really 'printer' friendly. Explicite NO. This is wrong. So, what's correct? Correct is that (1) FreeBSD is extremely printer-friendly to printers that conform to existing standards. Other than the Windows PC that needs drivers specific to the many different Windows versions that exist, FreeBSD doesn't need any drivers in best case, which is a PS capable printer. No poppin' in of CDs and Yes, yes, yes, yes, reboot. In many other cases, tools like apsfilter or CUPS can handle the printer without much interaction. Furthermore correct is that (2) most printers (or devices that the manufacturer calls that way) are not FreeBSD-friendly. This is of course intended, because the manufacturer doesn't want you to use anything except Windows, because that's everything that exists, and MICROS~1 invented the PC, the mouse, the Internet and the universe anyway. :-) If the menufacturers would stick to existing standards and USE them, there wouldn't be so much problems. In any case, please recognize that I don't disagree with you that printing on FreeBSD can cause trouble in the installation phase, but once you got things working, you don't need to do anything else, and it won't fail. On Windows systems, a Service pack can make the printer stop working (I've seen this once - for real). If we are ever going to increase the market share, [...] FreeBSD doesn't have oh joy oh market share, because it isn't a corporation that speculates at the stock exchange. :-) No, honestly: I appreciate every means that increases the usage share (i. e. how many users use the system, not how the buying of a product has influence on the percentage of the whole market, measured in money). And you're right, making printing more easy is one of the goals here. But this is not in FreeBSD's hand (or in the hands of the developers of FreeBSD, or of apsfilter, or of CUPS). It's the printer makers who invent new stuff day by day, only supplying drivers for the most recent Windows. [...] improving the whole printer 'experience' needs to be given some serious consideration. Tell the printer makers not to be that stupid, and things will change - for them (sell more printers), and for FreeBSD (attract more users). When going to buy a printer, I primarily consider the compatibility OF THE PRINTER towards the OS I use, not vice versa. I always decided to use office-class printers, even at home, because they just work. Personally, I cannot see a child or even many adults, going through the convoluted steps you have described needed to get a simple printer to work. It isn't a simple printer. The steps needed to get it running indicate this. If it would be a simple printer, using PS, apsfilter or CUPS would completely do the job. And the thing even doesn't look like a printer, more like a cross-over between a toaster and a suitcase. :-) There has to be a better way. Then again, that is just my 2¢ on the matter. Yes, the better way would be the manufacturers using the existing standards. It even IS that simple. Or they could release their specifications so volunteers would quickly write a printer driver for their product. In my opinion, FreeBSD does it better than Windows: It comes with printer drivers (or they can be installed without a CD just by pkg_add -r apsfilter or pkg_add -r cups) and loads the proper driver automatically. This should be mentioned. Just my 0,02 Euro. :-) -- Polytropon From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
of each executable file you think is Turboprint's. 8) Now is time to do the script. Enter your text editor on your session, copy the following script AS IS and save it as tpr on your home directory. Notice the P= and D= fields. #!/bin/bash F=/compat/linux/usr/bin/tpprint P=Canon_PIXMA_iP8500 D=/dev/ulpt0 if [ $1 ]; then S=$1 ; else S=- ; fi gs -sDEVICE=pcx24b -dBATCH -dNOPAUSE -dTextAlphaBits=4 -dGraphicsAlphaBits=2 \ -dMaxBitmap=1000 -sOutputFile=$HOME/tpr.pcx $S $F -d$P $HOME/tpr.pcx $HOME/tpr.job ; rm $HOME/tpr.pcx cat $HOME/tpr.job $D ; rm $HOME/tpr.job 9) Make it executable and copy it to /usr/local/bin as root, something like cd /home/YOUR_USERNAME chmod 555 tpr cp tpr /usr/local/bin Now, it is installed. When you want to print follow these steps. Remember, you have to do this every time you turn your printer on. 1) Turn on your printer 2) Run the following command as root chmod 666 /dev/ulpt0 This will allow every user in the system print. 3) Go to the File menu in your app and select Print as you'd always do 4) If it is KDE, click Advanced Options and select (generic) from the menu. If it's not KDE look for printing through a command. The idea here is to print using a command. 5) Look for the command field and type tpr 6) Click OK or whatever else in your program and it will print your job You can print also a PDF or PostScript file on your terminal (it all) by running tpr FILENAME It works on whatever printer. If you have another printer simply change the P= field in the script. For instance, I have it P=Canon_i250 since I have a Canon i250 USB printer installed at home. If it doesn't work maybe the device is wrong. If the /dev/ulpt0 doesn't work, try /dev/unlpt0 if USB, or /dev/lpt0 for Parallel's. That is set in the D= field. /dev/ulpt0 should work for USB Printers. Send me an email. I really want to know whether it does work for you or not. Here it is, kristian.teno...@gmail.com Chandan Haldar wrote: Couldn't fix it with the time I could spend... so still saving printouts for Windoz. :-( I know, I know, it's a shame... On 12/8/06, a...@zeos.net a...@zeos.net wrote: On Thu, Jun 29, 2006 at 08:59:51PM +0530, Chandan Haldar wrote: I'm searching for ways to print on a Canon PIXMA IP8500 from FreeBSD 6.0 Release. Has anyone tried to make the linux driver for PIXUS IP 8600 from canon.jp work for the PIXMA IP 8500 on FreeBSD? Has anyone tried the TurboPrint linux driver on FreeBSD? I need it bad enough to even buy this Euro 30 driver if it works on FreeBSD. It's incredibly annoying to have to boot Win just to print :-(. Chandan How do you print on your Canon PIXMA? I have a Canon PIXMA iP 2000 and the same problem. Elisej Babenko Seriously, before I spent all that time and trouble, I would just use a Windows PC. Then again, that is just my 2¢. -- Jerry ges...@yahoo.com A friend of mine won't get a divorce, because he hates lawyers more than he hates his wife. -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-Canon-printer-and-TurboPrint-tp7752609p23711563.html Sent from the freebsd-questions mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
On Mon, 25 May 2009 12:01:49 -0700 (PDT) kristian.tenorio kristian.teno...@gmail.com wrote: Nice, go on using Windows, Jerry. I will use my FreeBSD Box. But I'd like to point out that my earlier solution is not that good. I'm going to fix it here, Jerry and I'm sure this'll be interesting for Chandan. Nice, go on TOP POSTING. I prefer to post in a more logical way. Seriously, one of the major problems I face when trying to get an associate or friend to try a non Windows solution is printing. Windows users are use to just sticking a CD in the box, installing the driver and whatever other programs the distributor has assembled for them, and then printing. *nix systems have never been really 'printer' friendly. If we are ever going to increase the market share, improving the whole printer 'experience' needs to be given some serious consideration. Personally, I cannot see a child or even many adults, going through the convoluted steps you have described needed to get a simple printer to work. There has to be a better way. Then again, that is just my 2¢ on the matter. -- Jerry ges...@yahoo.com Alas, how love can trifle with itself! William Shakespeare, The Two Gentlemen of Verona signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
On Sat, 23 May 2009 09:10:53 -0700 (PDT) kristian.tenorio kristian.teno...@gmail.com wrote: Well, you have a Canon iP8500. I guess I can really help you. I have tried TurboPrint on FreeBSD and it works. Here is what I did: 0) I installed the Fedora linux compat package from my FreeBSD discs 1) I enabled the linux compatibility by adding as root the following line to /etc/rc.conf linux_enable=YES 2) I installed bash and symlinked it to /bin by running as root cd /bin ; ln -s `which bash` 3) I installed ghostscript, you probably have it installed already 4) I mounted as root the linprocfs by running mount -t linprocfs linprocfs /compat/linux/proc 5) I downloaded the .tgz Turboprint file, copied it to my home and untarred it using tar xzf MYTURBOPRINTFILE where MYTURBOPRINTFILE is the name of the file you downloaded ending in .tgz 6) I changed to the new folder and ran as root this, following the on-screen instructions brandelf -t 'Linux' setup ./setup ~~~TURBOPRINT SETUP PROGRAM: SOME QUESTIONS AND STUFF ON THE SCREEN cd /compat/linux/usr/bin ls t* 7) With this last command you see some new programs installed from the Turboprint setup like tpprint, turboprint, etc. You simply change its brand, as root of course by running on each of them brandelf -t 'Linux' TURBOPRINT-BINARY where TURBOPRINT-BINARY is the name of each executable file you think is Turboprint's. 8) Now is time to do the script. Enter your text editor on your session, copy the following script AS IS and save it as tpr on your home directory. Notice the P= and D= fields. #!/bin/bash F=/compat/linux/usr/bin/tpprint P=Canon_PIXMA_iP8500 D=/dev/ulpt0 if [ $1 ]; then S=$1 ; else S=- ; fi gs -sDEVICE=pcx24b -dBATCH -dNOPAUSE -dTextAlphaBits=4 -dGraphicsAlphaBits=2 \ -dMaxBitmap=1000 -sOutputFile=$HOME/tpr.pcx $S $F -d$P $HOME/tpr.pcx $HOME/tpr.job ; rm $HOME/tpr.pcx cat $HOME/tpr.job $D ; rm $HOME/tpr.job 9) Make it executable and copy it to /usr/local/bin as root, something like cd /home/YOUR_USERNAME chmod 555 tpr cp tpr /usr/local/bin Now, it is installed. When you want to print follow these steps. Remember, you have to do this every time you turn your printer on. 1) Turn on your printer 2) Run the following command as root chmod 666 /dev/ulpt0 This will allow every user in the system print. 3) Go to the File menu in your app and select Print as you'd always do 4) If it is KDE, click Advanced Options and select (generic) from the menu. If it's not KDE look for printing through a command. The idea here is to print using a command. 5) Look for the command field and type tpr 6) Click OK or whatever else in your program and it will print your job You can print also a PDF or PostScript file on your terminal (it all) by running tpr FILENAME It works on whatever printer. If you have another printer simply change the P= field in the script. For instance, I have it P=Canon_i250 since I have a Canon i250 USB printer installed at home. If it doesn't work maybe the device is wrong. If the /dev/ulpt0 doesn't work, try /dev/unlpt0 if USB, or /dev/lpt0 for Parallel's. That is set in the D= field. /dev/ulpt0 should work for USB Printers. Send me an email. I really want to know whether it does work for you or not. Here it is, kristian.teno...@gmail.com Chandan Haldar wrote: Couldn't fix it with the time I could spend... so still saving printouts for Windoz. :-( I know, I know, it's a shame... On 12/8/06, a...@zeos.net a...@zeos.net wrote: On Thu, Jun 29, 2006 at 08:59:51PM +0530, Chandan Haldar wrote: I'm searching for ways to print on a Canon PIXMA IP8500 from FreeBSD 6.0 Release. Has anyone tried to make the linux driver for PIXUS IP 8600 from canon.jp work for the PIXMA IP 8500 on FreeBSD? Has anyone tried the TurboPrint linux driver on FreeBSD? I need it bad enough to even buy this Euro 30 driver if it works on FreeBSD. It's incredibly annoying to have to boot Win just to print :-(. Chandan How do you print on your Canon PIXMA? I have a Canon PIXMA iP 2000 and the same problem. Elisej Babenko Seriously, before I spent all that time and trouble, I would just use a Windows PC. Then again, that is just my 2¢. -- Jerry ges...@yahoo.com A friend of mine won't get a divorce, because he hates lawyers more than he hates his wife. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
Well, you have a Canon iP8500. I guess I can really help you. I have tried TurboPrint on FreeBSD and it works. Here is what I did: 0) I installed the Fedora linux compat package from my FreeBSD discs 1) I enabled the linux compatibility by adding as root the following line to /etc/rc.conf linux_enable=YES 2) I installed bash and symlinked it to /bin by running as root cd /bin ; ln -s `which bash` 3) I installed ghostscript, you probably have it installed already 4) I mounted as root the linprocfs by running mount -t linprocfs linprocfs /compat/linux/proc 5) I downloaded the .tgz Turboprint file, copied it to my home and untarred it using tar xzf MYTURBOPRINTFILE where MYTURBOPRINTFILE is the name of the file you downloaded ending in .tgz 6) I changed to the new folder and ran as root this, following the on-screen instructions brandelf -t 'Linux' setup ./setup ~~~TURBOPRINT SETUP PROGRAM: SOME QUESTIONS AND STUFF ON THE SCREEN cd /compat/linux/usr/bin ls t* 7) With this last command you see some new programs installed from the Turboprint setup like tpprint, turboprint, etc. You simply change its brand, as root of course by running on each of them brandelf -t 'Linux' TURBOPRINT-BINARY where TURBOPRINT-BINARY is the name of each executable file you think is Turboprint's. 8) Now is time to do the script. Enter your text editor on your session, copy the following script AS IS and save it as tpr on your home directory. Notice the P= and D= fields. #!/bin/bash F=/compat/linux/usr/bin/tpprint P=Canon_PIXMA_iP8500 D=/dev/ulpt0 if [ $1 ]; then S=$1 ; else S=- ; fi gs -sDEVICE=pcx24b -dBATCH -dNOPAUSE -dTextAlphaBits=4 -dGraphicsAlphaBits=2 \ -dMaxBitmap=1000 -sOutputFile=$HOME/tpr.pcx $S $F -d$P $HOME/tpr.pcx $HOME/tpr.job ; rm $HOME/tpr.pcx cat $HOME/tpr.job $D ; rm $HOME/tpr.job 9) Make it executable and copy it to /usr/local/bin as root, something like cd /home/YOUR_USERNAME chmod 555 tpr cp tpr /usr/local/bin Now, it is installed. When you want to print follow these steps. Remember, you have to do this every time you turn your printer on. 1) Turn on your printer 2) Run the following command as root chmod 666 /dev/ulpt0 This will allow every user in the system print. 3) Go to the File menu in your app and select Print as you'd always do 4) If it is KDE, click Advanced Options and select (generic) from the menu. If it's not KDE look for printing through a command. The idea here is to print using a command. 5) Look for the command field and type tpr 6) Click OK or whatever else in your program and it will print your job You can print also a PDF or PostScript file on your terminal (it all) by running tpr FILENAME It works on whatever printer. If you have another printer simply change the P= field in the script. For instance, I have it P=Canon_i250 since I have a Canon i250 USB printer installed at home. If it doesn't work maybe the device is wrong. If the /dev/ulpt0 doesn't work, try /dev/unlpt0 if USB, or /dev/lpt0 for Parallel's. That is set in the D= field. /dev/ulpt0 should work for USB Printers. Send me an email. I really want to know whether it does work for you or not. Here it is, kristian.teno...@gmail.com Chandan Haldar wrote: Couldn't fix it with the time I could spend... so still saving printouts for Windoz. :-( I know, I know, it's a shame... On 12/8/06, a...@zeos.net a...@zeos.net wrote: On Thu, Jun 29, 2006 at 08:59:51PM +0530, Chandan Haldar wrote: I'm searching for ways to print on a Canon PIXMA IP8500 from FreeBSD 6.0 Release. Has anyone tried to make the linux driver for PIXUS IP 8600 from canon.jp work for the PIXMA IP 8500 on FreeBSD? Has anyone tried the TurboPrint linux driver on FreeBSD? I need it bad enough to even buy this Euro 30 driver if it works on FreeBSD. It's incredibly annoying to have to boot Win just to print :-(. Chandan How do you print on your Canon PIXMA? I have a Canon PIXMA iP 2000 and the same problem. Elisej Babenko ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-Canon-printer-and-TurboPrint-tp7752609p23685866.html Sent from the freebsd-questions mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
On Thu, Jun 29, 2006 at 08:59:51PM +0530, Chandan Haldar wrote: I'm searching for ways to print on a Canon PIXMA IP8500 from FreeBSD 6.0 Release. Has anyone tried to make the linux driver for PIXUS IP 8600 from canon.jp work for the PIXMA IP 8500 on FreeBSD? Has anyone tried the TurboPrint linux driver on FreeBSD? I need it bad enough to even buy this Euro 30 driver if it works on FreeBSD. It's incredibly annoying to have to boot Win just to print :-(. Chandan How do you print on your Canon PIXMA? I have a Canon PIXMA iP 2000 and the same problem. Elisej Babenko ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Canon printer and TurboPrint
Couldn't fix it with the time I could spend... so still saving printouts for Windoz. :-( I know, I know, it's a shame... On 12/8/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Jun 29, 2006 at 08:59:51PM +0530, Chandan Haldar wrote: I'm searching for ways to print on a Canon PIXMA IP8500 from FreeBSD 6.0 Release. Has anyone tried to make the linux driver for PIXUS IP 8600 from canon.jp work for the PIXMA IP 8500 on FreeBSD? Has anyone tried the TurboPrint linux driver on FreeBSD? I need it bad enough to even buy this Euro 30 driver if it works on FreeBSD. It's incredibly annoying to have to boot Win just to print :-(. Chandan How do you print on your Canon PIXMA? I have a Canon PIXMA iP 2000 and the same problem. Elisej Babenko ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Canon printer and TurboPrint
I'm searching for ways to print on a Canon PIXMA IP8500 from FreeBSD 6.0 Release. Has anyone tried to make the linux driver for PIXUS IP 8600 from canon.jp work for the PIXMA IP 8500 on FreeBSD? Has anyone tried the TurboPrint linux driver on FreeBSD? I need it bad enough to even buy this Euro 30 driver if it works on FreeBSD. It's incredibly annoying to have to boot Win just to print :-(. Chandan ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
