Re: [Gendergap] "A Call to Men UK " manhood workshops

[J Hayes]

sorry
i'm not interested in interacting with arbcom or susa
i can only report that people went down those paths
and are dissatisfied with the response
it is impacting any further edits from them
it is impacting interactions with a certain library and their employees.
it is important for the community and WMF to understand the negative
reputation is widespread, and will impact future editing.

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 6:03 PM, Pine W  wrote:

> At a minimum I would expect SuSa and/or Arbcom to conduct some meaningful
> investigation if there was an allegation of a functionary's
> trustworthiness. Perhaps (and I'm only speculating here) Arbcom and SuSa
> were unable to find enough hard evidence to support the allegation which is
> why nothing was done. I would suggest taking this matter up with Susa and
> Arbcom directly; perhaps they will be able to explain what they did (if
> anything) and what their findings were (if any). I'd understand if an
> investigation was done but they couldn't find enough evidence to support a
> revocation of functionary permissions; what would concern me more is if the
> matter was brought to their attention and they didn't investigate it at all.
>
> Pine
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 6:19 AM, J Hayes  wrote:
>
>> nope -
>> this was an incident at wikiconUSA 2015
>> apparently nothing done
>> which has impacted the credibility of arbcom and susa
>> (i was not witness, but i find the complainants credible)
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 11:54 PM, Pine W  wrote:
>>
>>> I'm unfamiliar with this situation, but if there's a functionary whose
>>> off-wiki behavior calls into question of the appropriateness of his/her
>>> continuing
>>> to have access to PII, please do forward that information to SuSa, the
>>> Ombudsman Committee, and/or (as applicable) the local arbitration committee
>>> that would have the ability to investigate the situation.
>>>
>>> Pine
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 8:29 PM, J Hayes  wrote:
>>>
 yes, that functionary and his behavior on meta has chilled the
 participation of some librarian editors
 they are highly skeptical of wiki harrassment efforts as long as he is
 in a position to see personal identifying information.
 they do not trust check user to be done responsibly as well

 this is impacting our efforts to engage a GLAM institution.


 On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 1:23 PM, Neotarf  wrote:

> Speaking of dox and in-person events, a few months ago one of the
> WP:BADSITES known for dox had a thread about attending a WMF
> harassment workshop. So anyone who is not comfortable with a paper
> trail, and would prefer face-to-face conversations with allies, could
> actually find themselves face to face with their harassers instead.
>

>>>
>>> ___
>>> Gendergap mailing list
>>> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please
>>> visit:
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Gendergap mailing list
>> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please
>> visit:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>>
>
>
> ___
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please
> visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>
___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

Re: [Gendergap] "A Call to Men UK " manhood workshops

[J Hayes]

nope -
this was an incident at wikiconUSA 2015
apparently nothing done
which has impacted the credibility of arbcom and susa
(i was not witness, but i find the complainants credible)

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 11:54 PM, Pine W  wrote:

> I'm unfamiliar with this situation, but if there's a functionary whose
> off-wiki behavior calls into question of the appropriateness of his/her
> continuing
> to have access to PII, please do forward that information to SuSa, the
> Ombudsman Committee, and/or (as applicable) the local arbitration committee
> that would have the ability to investigate the situation.
>
> Pine
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 8:29 PM, J Hayes  wrote:
>
>> yes, that functionary and his behavior on meta has chilled the
>> participation of some librarian editors
>> they are highly skeptical of wiki harrassment efforts as long as he is in
>> a position to see personal identifying information.
>> they do not trust check user to be done responsibly as well
>>
>> this is impacting our efforts to engage a GLAM institution.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 1:23 PM, Neotarf  wrote:
>>
>>> Speaking of dox and in-person events, a few months ago one of the
>>> WP:BADSITES known for dox had a thread about attending a WMF
>>> harassment workshop. So anyone who is not comfortable with a paper
>>> trail, and would prefer face-to-face conversations with allies, could
>>> actually find themselves face to face with their harassers instead.
>>>
>>
>
> ___
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please
> visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>
___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

Re: [Gendergap] "A Call to Men UK " manhood workshops

[Pine W]

I'm unfamiliar with this situation, but if there's a functionary whose
off-wiki behavior calls into question of the appropriateness of his/her
continuing
to have access to PII, please do forward that information to SuSa, the
Ombudsman Committee, and/or (as applicable) the local arbitration committee
that would have the ability to investigate the situation.

Pine


On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 8:29 PM, J Hayes  wrote:

> yes, that functionary and his behavior on meta has chilled the
> participation of some librarian editors
> they are highly skeptical of wiki harrassment efforts as long as he is in
> a position to see personal identifying information.
> they do not trust check user to be done responsibly as well
>
> this is impacting our efforts to engage a GLAM institution.
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 1:23 PM, Neotarf  wrote:
>
>> Speaking of dox and in-person events, a few months ago one of the
>> WP:BADSITES known for dox had a thread about attending a WMF
>> harassment workshop. So anyone who is not comfortable with a paper
>> trail, and would prefer face-to-face conversations with allies, could
>> actually find themselves face to face with their harassers instead.
>>
>
___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

Re: [Gendergap] "A Call to Men UK " manhood workshops

[J Hayes]

yes, that functionary and his behavior on meta has chilled the
participation of some librarian editors
they are highly skeptical of wiki harrassment efforts as long as he is in a
position to see personal identifying information.
they do not trust check user to be done responsibly as well

this is impacting our efforts to engage a GLAM institution.


On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 1:23 PM, Neotarf  wrote:

> Speaking of dox and in-person events, a few months ago one of the
> WP:BADSITES known for dox had a thread about attending a WMF
> harassment workshop. So anyone who is not comfortable with a paper
> trail, and would prefer face-to-face conversations with allies, could
> actually find themselves face to face with their harassers instead.
>
> On 4/12/17, Neotarf  wrote:
> > I had meant to revisit this discussion after my thinking on the
> > subject had come together a little better, unfortunately that isn't
> > happening, so I will just express my concerns.
> >
> > Perhaps this is only anecdotal, but it has been my observation that a
> > good many admins are students and either stop editing or cut back
> > their participation drastically in their junior year. So if they start
> > at age 12, which I think has happened a lot, they are basically
> > editing for about ten years. I find it hard to believe there are that
> > many older admins, the photos from events certainly don't bear this
> > out.
> >
> > The link from enwiki is interesting, I do recognize names of a few
> > professionals but even more who fit the 'advanced student' pattern.
> > The pattern on Meta seems similar.
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%
> 3AListUsers==sysop=1=1=2000
> >
> > So the problem I am trying to solve is basically the "endless
> > September" one that Sue pointed out in her 2011 editor retention talk
> > to WMUK.  I know this information is dated, but the concept still
> > might be a useful starting point. I have not spent a lot of time on
> > Meta, but a while back I was quite startled to have an individual on
> > Meta demand I engage with him in a discussion about vulgar words for
> > reproductive organs
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:
> Ajraddatz=15715606=15715064
> > , and even more startled to find out this was a functionary. Not only
> > that, it is someone who appears to be deeply opposed to the concept of
> > safe space
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Grants_talk:
> IdeaLab/Inspire/Meta=15729581
> > and whose name appears on a key committee for Wikimania, which as I
> > understand it, will be under a safe space policy. So my original
> > question was how can we get newcomers up to speed on the social norms,
> > but considering the number of past privacy violations by
> > functionaries, both on WP and on WP criticism sites, now the question
> > seems to be who has access to PII, especially for in-person events.  I
> > know of no policy for this. Perhaps it is time to restrict all access
> > to PII to WMF staff and contractors.
> >
> > On 2/20/17, WereSpielChequers  wrote:
> >> *Re "** young men from 11-19", which if you think about it, is pretty
> >> much
> >> the demographic of Wikimedia's admins and functionaries."* That's an old
> >> joke, but nowadays a joke that looks a tad out of touch. Yes a
> >> significant
> >> proportion of  people were that age when they became admins in
> 2004-2008.
> >> But if there is one thing we know about the people who became admins ten
> >> years ago, it is that they are ten years older today. I couldn't
> >> guarantee
> >> that none of our current admins were that young now, but I'd be
> surprised
> >> if more than one or two were. Only twenty of our current admins created
> >> their accounts in the last six years
> >>  3AListUsers==sysop=1=1=2000>.
> >> RFA has been difficult for teenagers to pass for several years now, If
> >> any
> >> have got through in the last six years they have been unusually mature
> in
> >> behaviour. As for Functionaries, Functionaries other than crats have to
> >> prove they are 18 or over when they become Functionaries. So it is
> >> theoretically possible that any new functionaries who first became so in
> >> the last two years could be 18 or 19, but it isn't exactly likely.
> >>
> >> The template bombers who tag lots of articles for admins to delete
> >> probably
> >> do include some people in that age group, but admins? If 1% of the 1200
> >> admins on English Wikipedia were still under 21 I would be stunned. Far
> >> more admins are over 60 than could possibly be 11-19.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 20 February 2017 at 18:53, Neotarf  wrote:
> >>
> >>> "A Call to Men UK has 55 coaches working in schools, youth justice
> >>> departments and youth centres across Worcestershire. The organisation
> >>> has
> >>> one principal aim, explains development manager 

Re: [Gendergap] "A Call to Men UK " manhood workshops

[Neotarf]

Speaking of dox and in-person events, a few months ago one of the
WP:BADSITES known for dox had a thread about attending a WMF
harassment workshop. So anyone who is not comfortable with a paper
trail, and would prefer face-to-face conversations with allies, could
actually find themselves face to face with their harassers instead.

On 4/12/17, Neotarf  wrote:
> I had meant to revisit this discussion after my thinking on the
> subject had come together a little better, unfortunately that isn't
> happening, so I will just express my concerns.
>
> Perhaps this is only anecdotal, but it has been my observation that a
> good many admins are students and either stop editing or cut back
> their participation drastically in their junior year. So if they start
> at age 12, which I think has happened a lot, they are basically
> editing for about ten years. I find it hard to believe there are that
> many older admins, the photos from events certainly don't bear this
> out.
>
> The link from enwiki is interesting, I do recognize names of a few
> professionals but even more who fit the 'advanced student' pattern.
> The pattern on Meta seems similar.
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AListUsers==sysop=1=1=2000
>
> So the problem I am trying to solve is basically the "endless
> September" one that Sue pointed out in her 2011 editor retention talk
> to WMUK.  I know this information is dated, but the concept still
> might be a useful starting point. I have not spent a lot of time on
> Meta, but a while back I was quite startled to have an individual on
> Meta demand I engage with him in a discussion about vulgar words for
> reproductive organs
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ajraddatz=15715606=15715064
> , and even more startled to find out this was a functionary. Not only
> that, it is someone who appears to be deeply opposed to the concept of
> safe space
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Grants_talk:IdeaLab/Inspire/Meta=15729581
> and whose name appears on a key committee for Wikimania, which as I
> understand it, will be under a safe space policy. So my original
> question was how can we get newcomers up to speed on the social norms,
> but considering the number of past privacy violations by
> functionaries, both on WP and on WP criticism sites, now the question
> seems to be who has access to PII, especially for in-person events.  I
> know of no policy for this. Perhaps it is time to restrict all access
> to PII to WMF staff and contractors.
>
> On 2/20/17, WereSpielChequers  wrote:
>> *Re "** young men from 11-19", which if you think about it, is pretty
>> much
>> the demographic of Wikimedia's admins and functionaries."* That's an old
>> joke, but nowadays a joke that looks a tad out of touch. Yes a
>> significant
>> proportion of  people were that age when they became admins in 2004-2008.
>> But if there is one thing we know about the people who became admins ten
>> years ago, it is that they are ten years older today. I couldn't
>> guarantee
>> that none of our current admins were that young now, but I'd be surprised
>> if more than one or two were. Only twenty of our current admins created
>> their accounts in the last six years
>> .
>> RFA has been difficult for teenagers to pass for several years now, If
>> any
>> have got through in the last six years they have been unusually mature in
>> behaviour. As for Functionaries, Functionaries other than crats have to
>> prove they are 18 or over when they become Functionaries. So it is
>> theoretically possible that any new functionaries who first became so in
>> the last two years could be 18 or 19, but it isn't exactly likely.
>>
>> The template bombers who tag lots of articles for admins to delete
>> probably
>> do include some people in that age group, but admins? If 1% of the 1200
>> admins on English Wikipedia were still under 21 I would be stunned. Far
>> more admins are over 60 than could possibly be 11-19.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 20 February 2017 at 18:53, Neotarf  wrote:
>>
>>> "A Call to Men UK has 55 coaches working in schools, youth justice
>>> departments and youth centres across Worcestershire. The organisation
>>> has
>>> one principal aim, explains development manager Michael Conroy: to spark
>>> a
>>> 'cultural shift in the way boys relate to girls', and through this to
>>> prevent violence against women and girls  'As a culture it’s time
>>> that we gave our young men permission to be complex, sensitive and happy
>>> human beings who transmit positivity and respect to others'.” [1]
>>>
>>> They have a program "for young men from 11-19", which if you think about
>>> it, is pretty much the demographic of Wikimedia's admins and
>>> functionaries.
>>> [2]
>>>
>>> This is all the more interesting right now because of the recent Newmark
>>> Foundation 

Re: [Gendergap] "A Call to Men UK " manhood workshops

[Neotarf]

I had meant to revisit this discussion after my thinking on the
subject had come together a little better, unfortunately that isn't
happening, so I will just express my concerns.

Perhaps this is only anecdotal, but it has been my observation that a
good many admins are students and either stop editing or cut back
their participation drastically in their junior year. So if they start
at age 12, which I think has happened a lot, they are basically
editing for about ten years. I find it hard to believe there are that
many older admins, the photos from events certainly don't bear this
out.

The link from enwiki is interesting, I do recognize names of a few
professionals but even more who fit the 'advanced student' pattern.
The pattern on Meta seems similar.
https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AListUsers==sysop=1=1=2000

So the problem I am trying to solve is basically the "endless
September" one that Sue pointed out in her 2011 editor retention talk
to WMUK.  I know this information is dated, but the concept still
might be a useful starting point. I have not spent a lot of time on
Meta, but a while back I was quite startled to have an individual on
Meta demand I engage with him in a discussion about vulgar words for
reproductive organs
https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ajraddatz=15715606=15715064
, and even more startled to find out this was a functionary. Not only
that, it is someone who appears to be deeply opposed to the concept of
safe space 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Grants_talk:IdeaLab/Inspire/Meta=15729581
and whose name appears on a key committee for Wikimania, which as I
understand it, will be under a safe space policy. So my original
question was how can we get newcomers up to speed on the social norms,
but considering the number of past privacy violations by
functionaries, both on WP and on WP criticism sites, now the question
seems to be who has access to PII, especially for in-person events.  I
know of no policy for this. Perhaps it is time to restrict all access
to PII to WMF staff and contractors.

On 2/20/17, WereSpielChequers  wrote:
> *Re "** young men from 11-19", which if you think about it, is pretty much
> the demographic of Wikimedia's admins and functionaries."* That's an old
> joke, but nowadays a joke that looks a tad out of touch. Yes a significant
> proportion of  people were that age when they became admins in 2004-2008.
> But if there is one thing we know about the people who became admins ten
> years ago, it is that they are ten years older today. I couldn't guarantee
> that none of our current admins were that young now, but I'd be surprised
> if more than one or two were. Only twenty of our current admins created
> their accounts in the last six years
> .
> RFA has been difficult for teenagers to pass for several years now, If any
> have got through in the last six years they have been unusually mature in
> behaviour. As for Functionaries, Functionaries other than crats have to
> prove they are 18 or over when they become Functionaries. So it is
> theoretically possible that any new functionaries who first became so in
> the last two years could be 18 or 19, but it isn't exactly likely.
>
> The template bombers who tag lots of articles for admins to delete probably
> do include some people in that age group, but admins? If 1% of the 1200
> admins on English Wikipedia were still under 21 I would be stunned. Far
> more admins are over 60 than could possibly be 11-19.
>
>
>
> On 20 February 2017 at 18:53, Neotarf  wrote:
>
>> "A Call to Men UK has 55 coaches working in schools, youth justice
>> departments and youth centres across Worcestershire. The organisation has
>> one principal aim, explains development manager Michael Conroy: to spark
>> a
>> 'cultural shift in the way boys relate to girls', and through this to
>> prevent violence against women and girls  'As a culture it’s time
>> that we gave our young men permission to be complex, sensitive and happy
>> human beings who transmit positivity and respect to others'.” [1]
>>
>> They have a program "for young men from 11-19", which if you think about
>> it, is pretty much the demographic of Wikimedia's admins and
>> functionaries.
>> [2]
>>
>> This is all the more interesting right now because of the recent Newmark
>> Foundation grant to combat harassment, which it seems is to be used for
>> developing more forceful blocking tools for admins and functionaries
>> "with
>> the participation and support of the volunteers who will be using the
>> tools".  If anyone has not seen the Susan J Fowler / Uber piece on
>> harassment that has started going viral in the last 24 hours, it is here.
>> "...they
>> didn't do anything because the manager who threatened me was a 'high
>> performer.'" [3]  Sound familiar?  This happened in a company with HR

Re: [Gendergap] "A Call to Men UK " manhood workshops

[WereSpielChequers]

*Re "** young men from 11-19", which if you think about it, is pretty much
the demographic of Wikimedia's admins and functionaries."* That's an old
joke, but nowadays a joke that looks a tad out of touch. Yes a significant
proportion of  people were that age when they became admins in 2004-2008.
But if there is one thing we know about the people who became admins ten
years ago, it is that they are ten years older today. I couldn't guarantee
that none of our current admins were that young now, but I'd be surprised
if more than one or two were. Only twenty of our current admins created
their accounts in the last six years
.
RFA has been difficult for teenagers to pass for several years now, If any
have got through in the last six years they have been unusually mature in
behaviour. As for Functionaries, Functionaries other than crats have to
prove they are 18 or over when they become Functionaries. So it is
theoretically possible that any new functionaries who first became so in
the last two years could be 18 or 19, but it isn't exactly likely.

The template bombers who tag lots of articles for admins to delete probably
do include some people in that age group, but admins? If 1% of the 1200
admins on English Wikipedia were still under 21 I would be stunned. Far
more admins are over 60 than could possibly be 11-19.



On 20 February 2017 at 18:53, Neotarf  wrote:

> "A Call to Men UK has 55 coaches working in schools, youth justice
> departments and youth centres across Worcestershire. The organisation has
> one principal aim, explains development manager Michael Conroy: to spark a
> 'cultural shift in the way boys relate to girls', and through this to
> prevent violence against women and girls  'As a culture it’s time
> that we gave our young men permission to be complex, sensitive and happy
> human beings who transmit positivity and respect to others'.” [1]
>
> They have a program "for young men from 11-19", which if you think about
> it, is pretty much the demographic of Wikimedia's admins and functionaries.
> [2]
>
> This is all the more interesting right now because of the recent Newmark
> Foundation grant to combat harassment, which it seems is to be used for
> developing more forceful blocking tools for admins and functionaries "with
> the participation and support of the volunteers who will be using the
> tools".  If anyone has not seen the Susan J Fowler / Uber piece on
> harassment that has started going viral in the last 24 hours, it is here. 
> "...they
> didn't do anything because the manager who threatened me was a 'high
> performer.'" [3]  Sound familiar?  This happened in a company with HR
> oversight; Wikimedia admins and functionaries have no oversight at all.
>
> [1] https://www.theguardian.com/social-care-network/2017/feb/
> 20/teaching-boys-about-healthy-relationships-they-need-it-from-birth
> [2] http://acalltomenuk.org.uk/
> [3] https://www.susanjfowler.com/blog/2017/2/19/reflecting-on-
> one-very-strange-year-at-uber
>
>
>
> ___
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please
> visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>
___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

Re: [Gendergap] "A Call to Men UK " manhood workshops

[Pine W]

Hi Neotarf,

Sounds like an interesting program. There are similar programs in the US to
encourage males in their younger years (under 18) to treat other people
respectfully and to try to inspire them with visions of hopeful futures
(e.g. high-quality jobs instead of membership in gangs). I'm not sure how
applicable this kind of training would be in the Wikiverse, but I'm glad to
see the progress happening on anti-harrassment initiatives and I hope that
those will yield benefits. In general I'd like to see high-quality, modular
training available for administrators on a variety of topics. Individual
Wikimedia projects could have the option to encourage or require admin
candidates to complete portions of the training, as well as require
"re-certification" on a periodic basis to retain certain permissions.

I'm not aware of studies of the age range of Wikimedia admins, but I'd
venture that most are 18+. There are a few younger than that, but my
impression is that they're a minority.

How much and what kind of supervision Wikimedia admins and functionaries
have depends on the project. ENWP Arbcom has desysopped admins including
functionaries. But I imagine that on smaller projects, demoting a
problematic administrator could be next to impossible.

Pine
___
Gendergap mailing list
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap