Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[R Losey]

On Sat, Jul 15, 2023 at 5:33 PM Stan Brown 
wrote:

>
> On 2023-07-15 14:42, R Losey wrote:
> > And, if an email is long, or if there is much back-and-forth, one must
> > scroll to see replies, even if they are simple. Having them at the top
> > is easier to see... and  being "out of order" is not usually a problem
> > (contrived situation aside).
>
> With all respect, that's a straw man. It does indeed occur when people
> fail to trim their quotes to only the part that is relevant to their
> reply. In my opinion, that's highly rude, because in effect the writer
> says "I am the most important person in the world, and my time to trim
> is more valuable than the combined time of all the people who will
> receive this message and have to hunt for the relevant bits."
>

Perhaps a straw man... sometimes there really is a conversation that is
long enough with relevant information that can make it long. I agree with
your "rude" assessment.

I am old enough to remember when all replies were placed "below" in email,
and I remember struggling through the changes when changes were made so
that replies went out on top, but now replies "above" the text seems to be
more common.

For this list, I personally don't care which way it is done, as long as we
have a standard so that we can encourage uniformity. I find it difficult to
read entries here that have both "above" and "below" replies mixed.

For now, I'm trying to follow the lead of the post; if it's below, I post
below; if it's above, I post above.

-- 
_
Richard Losey
rlo...@gmail.com
Micah 6:8
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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[Paul Feakins]

On 17/07/2023 10:48, David T. wrote:

That would be *OpenStacks* convention.


Most mailing lists follow those conventions.

Paul.

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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[David T. via gnucash-user]

That would be *OpenStacks* convention.

By all means, impose their rules here!
⁣
David T.​

P.S. The amount of energy expended on this topic is amazing to me--and I note 
that NONE of you Authorities On Email Etiquette bothered to change the subject 
of this thread to reflect the completely new (and ultimately fruitless) 
discussion of a topic that left the barn, died, and was buried years ago.

On Jul 17, 2023, 11:37, at 11:37, Paul Feakins  wrote:
>On 15/07/2023 01:56, R Losey wrote:
>> Is there really a convention for replies?
>
>Indeed there is: 
>https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/MailingListEtiquette#Replies
>
>Paul Feakins.
>
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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[Paul Feakins]

On 15/07/2023 01:56, R Losey wrote:

Is there really a convention for replies?


Indeed there is: 
https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/MailingListEtiquette#Replies


Paul Feakins.

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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[Adrien Monteleone]

And then there is the problem that sometimes, quoted material gets 
unquoted, or quote levels are removed and the sender didn't notice that 
some of it effectively became unquoted and now appears as their own writing.


Will,

Your recent post below is a top post with a reference quote from Stan 
which contains nested reference quotes from Paul & R Losey. 
Unfortunately, Stan's reply appears as your own rather than a quote.


Now *that* is confusing and it takes mental bandwidth to sort out what 
is the relevant new portion of this post.


(I'm not complaining, and I don't know how it happens each time, but it 
is indeed a mess!)


Regards,
Adrien

On 7/14/23 8:33 PM, William Prescott wrote:

Just to be a devil's advocate...
The advantage of top posting is that the new addition to the thread is obvious. 
With bottom posting, the new reply appears in the middle of the message, often 
with text both above and below it.

Probably because of the default behavior of many email clients, most email 
chains I see are top posted. This forum is the only place where I commonly see 
bottom posting.

To quote from Wikipedia on the subject:
"For a long time the traditional style was to post the answer below as much of 
the quoted original as was necessary to understand the reply (bottom or inline). 
Many years later, when email became widespread in business communication, it became 
a widespread practice to reply above the entire original and leave it (supposedly 
untouched) below the reply.
While each online community  differs on which 
styles are appropriate or acceptable, within some communities the use of the "wrong" method 
risks being seen as a breach of netiquette , and can 
provoke vehement response from community regulars."


Personally, I'm neutral. Either is fine with me.

Will

On 14 Jul 2023, at 19:17, Stan Brown  wrote:


On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 6:50 AM Paul Feakins 
wrote:

With a mailing list such as this, I believe the convention is to put
replies at the bottom?


On 2023-07-14 17:56, R Losey wrote:

Is there really a convention for replies? Gmail puts my replies at the top
by default (like this), but if they are supposed to be at the bottom, I can
pretty easily do that as well. But I haven't seen a FAQ or heard that this
is a convention.


It is a long-standing convention, predating computers, that the response
comes after the thing being responded to. (That's unless you're a
contestant on Jeopardy, of course.)

Without even considering everybody's _other_ email, there are multiple
topics on the GC mailing list, and few people can keep all of that in
their heads. Some brief context (usually _not_ a full quote of the
article) is helpful before making one's response. To me it seems like
basic courtesy for the writer to consider the convenience of the
readers, who outnumber the writer manyfold.

Stan Brown
Tehachapi, CA, USA
https://BrownMath.com


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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[Adrien Monteleone]

Yes, I am a top poster, but not always.

I don't view most of these topics as 'conversations'. My post is usually 
its own thing on a shared subject.


I only include a relevant quote for reference or context. If someone 
wants that reference or context, they can scroll and read. Those that 
don't need it, don't have to. (and trimming quotes helps everyone)


If there is a list of points or questions, I'll switch to in-line 
replies or answers as now there are multiple references for my comments.


Regards,
Adrien

On 7/14/23 3:10 PM, David H wrote:

No-one really cares any more - top posting saves scrolling through rows of
someone else's opinion sometimes and gmail doesn't make it easy :-)


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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[Michael Hendry]

On 15 Jul 2023, at 11:28, Chris Green  wrote:

> 
>> 
> I occasionally run two copies of GnuCash and there don't appear to be
> any significant issues when I do this.  It's quite a rare occurrence
> though as, with small (one year only) database files a GnuCash
> instance starts very quickly so I just start and stop them as required.

I seem not to be able to run two copies of GnuCash on my Mac, so I can’t test 
this (I haven’t looked at invoking it via the command-line).

I’ve been using GnuCash since 2010 using single files for each of several 
different organisations, and file opening is still effectively instantaneous.

>> 
>> 1. Assuming you create a new data file for each each unrestricted and 
>> restricted 
>> account each year, you lose the prompts for recurrent transactions (e.g. 
>> Payment to The Corner Shop from the current account to the Expenses:Tea, 
>> Milk and Biscuits account). 
> 
> Yes, but it's hardly a big loss.  One only has to re-enter a repeated
> item once a year!

I have a number of multi-split transactions, and my memory isn’t good enough to 
keep their construction consistent from year to year.

As another example, in the case of the Rotary Club, annual subscriptions fall 
due at the beginning of the Rotary Year (1st July). I duplicate all the 
subscription payments from the previous year, setting the date of payment to 
1st July and the amount to zero after making adjustments for members who have 
left or joined during the year. As subscriptions come in, I edit the relevant 
transactions to correct the date and value paid. This way I can print off a 
report before meetings and jog the memories of tardy payers without having to 
keep track of payments on paper or in a separate app. 

> We (or the Diocese) have absolutely no need for multi-year reports.
> Anyway it's hardly more difficult to produce a balance sheet for 2021
> and a balance sheet for 2022 and compare them. Plus I never have to
> change start and end dates for reports, for a particular year they are
> cast in stone for all reports.

I didn’t think there was any value in this until I experimented with the 
multi-report feature. Insights were gained, especially over the Covid years.

> 
> With 'cash accounting' it's trivial to ensure the end of year figures
> are correct, they **must** be the same as the bank statement for 31st
> December.  Similarly uncashed cheques simply don't appear, a cheque
> payment only appears in the accounts when it is actually debited from
> the bank account.

I see that Michael Novack has answered this from the US legal point of view. 
From a practical point of view, I think it wise always to record the issue of a 
cheque in the books to reduce the risk of an inadvertent overdraft. As cheques 
disappear from use, this likely to disappear as a problem, but I try to ensure 
that bank transfers are made several days before 30th June to ensure that 
they’ve been completed before the year-end.

Clearly, we have both developed ways of dealing with our own circumstances, and 
will probably continue to differ!

A big “hurray” to the GnuCash team for supporting our idiosyncrasies and to 
this list for providing a forum for discussion.

Regards,

Michael
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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[Stan Brown]

On 2023-07-15 14:42, R Losey wrote:
> And, if an email is long, or if there is much back-and-forth, one must
> scroll to see replies, even if they are simple. Having them at the top
> is easier to see... and  being "out of order" is not usually a problem
> (contrived situation aside). 

With all respect, that's a straw man. It does indeed occur when people
fail to trim their quotes to only the part that is relevant to their
reply. In my opinion, that's highly rude, because in effect the writer
says "I am the most important person in the world, and my time to trim
is more valuable than the combined time of all the people who will
receive this message and have to hunt for the relevant bits."

Stan Brown
Tehachapi, CA, USA
https://BrownMath.com
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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[R Losey]

On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 10:03 PM  wrote:

> On Fri, 14 Jul 2023 20:02:21 -0500
> R Losey  wrote:
>
> > Actually, when a conversation has mixed before-and-after comments, it
> > is pretty hard to follow. I don't know if there is a standard for how
> > to reply to the list, but it would be good if we would use the same
> > one.
>
> I can never see that happening, so I don't worry about it.
> Liz (Moderator hat)
> ___
>

Your comment ("I can never see that happening") is unclear; I have
DEFINITELY seen threads with before-and-after comments mixed together.

If, however, you mean that you don't think enforcing a standard will
happen: probably not, but it would be good to have a standard that we could
"encourage" people to follow -- much like the "Please use reply-all" when
replying to the group... some forget to do this, but it is "What We Are
Supposed To Do".

_
Richard Losey
rlo...@gmail.com
Micah 6:8
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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[R Losey]

I'm fine with either, but I don't want the styles mixed: THAT is hard to
read.

_
Richard Losey
rlo...@gmail.com
Micah 6:8

On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 8:34 PM William Prescott 
wrote:

> Just to be a devil's advocate...
> The advantage of top posting is that the new addition to the thread is
> obvious. With bottom posting, the new reply appears in the middle of the
> message, often with text both above and below it.
>
> Probably because of the default behavior of many email clients, most email
> chains I see are top posted. This forum is the only place where I commonly
> see bottom posting.
>
> To quote from Wikipedia on the subject:
> "For a long time the traditional style was to post the answer below as
> much of the quoted original as was necessary to understand the reply
> (bottom or inline). Many years later, when email became widespread in
> business communication, it became a widespread practice to reply above the
> entire original and leave it (supposedly untouched) below the reply.
> While each online community <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_community> differs on which styles
> are appropriate or acceptable, within some communities the use of the
> "wrong" method risks being seen as a breach of netiquette <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netiquette>, and can provoke vehement
> response from community regulars."
>
>
> Personally, I'm neutral. Either is fine with me.
>
> Will
>
>
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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[R Losey]

On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 8:17 PM Stan Brown 
wrote:

> > On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 6:50 AM Paul Feakins 
> > wrote:
> >> With a mailing list such as this, I believe the convention is to put
> >> replies at the bottom?
>
> On 2023-07-14 17:56, R Losey wrote:
> > Is there really a convention for replies? Gmail puts my replies at the
> top
> > by default (like this), but if they are supposed to be at the bottom, I
> can
> > pretty easily do that as well. But I haven't seen a FAQ or heard that
> this
> > is a convention.
>
> It is a long-standing convention, predating computers, that the response
> comes after the thing being responded to. (That's unless you're a
> contestant on Jeopardy, of course.)
>
> Without even considering everybody's _other_ email, there are multiple
> topics on the GC mailing list, and few people can keep all of that in
> their heads. Some brief context (usually _not_ a full quote of the
> article) is helpful before making one's response. To me it seems like
> basic courtesy for the writer to consider the convenience of the
> readers, who outnumber the writer manyfold.
>
> Stan Brown
> Tehachapi, CA, USA
> https://BrownMath.com
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>


I agree that replying below is the older convention, and it is what was
used before computers, and even in the earlier days of email.

However, as emails became widely used, it seems that reply-at-the-top
became more common - it is the ONLY choice on gmail, and seems to be the
default on other systems, even if you do get a choice (hint, hint gmail
people!!).

And, if an email is long, or if there is much back-and-forth, one must
scroll to see replies, even if they are simple. Having them at the top is
easier to see... and  being "out of order" is not usually a problem
(contrived situation aside).

I really just want us to be consistent; I can handle either top or bottom
for replies... what is annoying and troublesome is having replies mixed on
top and bottom. I'd like there to be consistency, and perhaps the gnucash
footer can add a line about "Please put replies at the bottom of the post"

_
Richard Losey
rlo...@gmail.com
Micah 6:8
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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[R Losey]

On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 8:10 PM Stephen M. Butler  wrote:

> I saw this in an email exchange a few years back that can be summarized as:
>
> A3: Then you get email chains like this.
>
> Q3: But I prefer to top post to see what was entered last!
>
>
> A2: So the response makes sense after reading the relevant question.
>
> Q2: Why bottom post?
>
>
> A1: Please use bottom posting.
>
> Q1: Do we top or bottom post?
>
>
>
> Stephen M Butler
> ---
> GnuPG Fingerprint:  8A25 9726 D439 758D D846 E5D4 282A 5477 0385 81D8
>
> On 7/14/23 17:56, R Losey wrote:
> > Is there really a convention for replies? Gmail puts my replies at the
> top
> > by default (like this), but if they are supposed to be at the bottom, I
> can
> > pretty easily do that as well. But I haven't seen a FAQ or heard that
> this
> > is a convention.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 6:50 AM Paul Feakins  wrote:
> >
> >> With a mailing list such as this, I believe the convention is to put
> >> replies at the bottom?
>


Yes, one can come up with contrived situations in which either approach is
better (or worse).

It's annoying that GMAIL doesn't have this feature as a setting; it always
puts above by default (and, in truth, I've gotten used to reading from the
bottom up anyway.

_
Richard Losey
rlo...@gmail.com
Micah 6:8
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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[Stan Brown]

On 2023-07-15 06:32, Michael or Penny Novack wrote:
>> Of course Mac doesn't know how to open a file in Gnucash, so that
>> remains different.
>>
>> Liz
> 
> Neither does a machine under Windows unless it has been "told" what
> application to use for an object of that type. Just because an object
> has a file extension isn't enough. There also has to be an entry in the
> "table of associations" telling the machine "use application X for
> objects of type Y".

So? The Windows installer creates that association, as a Windows
installer is supposed to do. The user doesn't have to do any sort of
setup. I speak from experience on Windows 7, 8.1, 10,and 11 with GC.

Stan Brown
Tehachapi, CA, USA
https://BrownMath.com
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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[Stan Brown]

On 2023-07-15 03:28, Chris Green wrote:
> Similarly uncashed cheques simply don't appear, a cheque
> payment only appears in the accounts when it is actually debited from
> the bank account.

That doesn't seem right to me.

When you write the check and present or transmit it to the payee, the
money is no longer yours. If you don't record it in the books till it's
cashed, how do you prevent yourself from writing another check that will
leave you overdrawn as soon as it and the first one are cashed?

I don't know where you're located, but in the US, IRS regulations have
determined that a payment is made, legally, in the tax year when the
check is written and sent, regardless of how long it takes the payee to
cash it.

Stan Brown
Tehachapi, CA, USA
https://BrownMath.com
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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[Michael or Penny Novack]

With 'cash accounting' it's trivial to ensure the end of year figures
are correct, they **must** be the same as the bank statement for 31st
December.  Similarly uncashed cheques simply don't appear, a cheque
payment only appears in the accounts when it is actually debited from
the bank account.


Uh  not so the way I learned to keep books,

a) A check that has been received but not yet deposited would be in 
"undeposited cash" and not the bank account. It is YOUR (the 
organization's) when received. The date of the bank deposit is just a 
transfer between asset accounts,


b) A check has legally left your account when it has been written and 
"constructive delivery" made << why postmark date/time can have legal 
importance >> The date at which it gets back to your bank and is charged 
against your account has no legal relevance. So the date when written 
(assume mailed same day) is the effective date of the transaction in 
your books,


In other words, you have to reconcile the bank account for Dec 31st just 
like any other month end bank statement. Just because you are on the 
case basis does not mean what you seem to think it does.


Michael D Novack

PS: I am meaning "reconcile": in its old sense rather than specifically 
a process of gnucash.




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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[Michael or Penny Novack]

Of course Mac doesn't know how to open a file in Gnucash, so that
remains different.

Liz


Neither does a machine under Windows unless it has been "told" what 
application to use for an object of that type. Just because an object 
has a file extension isn't enough. There also has to be an entry in the 
"table of associations" telling the machine "use application X for 
objects of type Y".


Michael D Novack


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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[Chris Green]

On Sat, Jul 15, 2023 at 10:58:27AM +0100, Michael Hendry wrote:
> On 14 Jul 2023, at 13:24, Chris Green  wrote:
> 
> > 
> > On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 01:06:36PM +0100, Maf. King wrote:
> >> On Friday, 14 July 2023 12:34:28 BST Fross, Michael wrote:
> >>> I  run multiple instances at the same time, but you have to open different
> >>> data files. I’d keep them in different directories to be tidy.
> >>> 
> >> 
> >> I don't do it often, but have had occasion to have GC side-by-side on 2 
> >> data 
> >> files at the same time.
> >> 
> >> What I have done is start a 2nd instance of GC, let it warn me that the 
> >> data 
> >> file is in use already, select open read-only then file-> open to the 
> >> second 
> >> data file.  (I have 6 in regular use).  But I'm on Linux, don't know it 
> >> that 
> >> would work the same on any WinOs flavour.
> >> 
> >> Agree 100% about keeping each data file in its own sub-directory, and 
> >> about not 
> >> changing prefs while 2 instances are running!
> >> 
> > I have quite a lot of separate GnuCash 'instances' where 'instance'
> > means a GnuCash data file (Sqlite database in my case).
> 
> Ah, I was thinking that by “instance” you meant a running copy of GNC with 
> its own GNC file. Unless you are running each instance as a different user, 
> my understanding is that you’re risking cross-contamination of configuration 
> settings, as GNC is a one-file-at-a time product. 
> 
I occasionally run two copies of GnuCash and there don't appear to be
any significant issues when I do this.  It's quite a rare occurrence
though as, with small (one year only) database files a GnuCash
instance starts very quickly so I just start and stop them as required.

> > 
> > I am a PCC (Parochial Church Council) treasurer, this requires me to
> > submit audited accounts to the Diocese each year.  It also requires
> > separate accounts for 'restricted' and 'unrestricted' funds. 
> > Restricted funds are those donations which have been specifically
> > given for the upkeep of our church building as opposed to being used
> > for general expenses.
> > 
> > I thus keep separate GnuCash data files for 'restricted' and
> > 'unrestricted' in each financial year.  With a little bit of simple
> > scripting (this is Linux) I can go to any year's dirctory and simply
> > enter 'gnc' to see that year's current/unrestricted accounts and 'gnb'
> > to see the building/restricted accounts. I never have to mess about
> > changing the dates on reports to see different years, I never have to
> > explicitly specify which data file to use (because it's in the
> > directory for the year I'm looking at).
> 
> I can see disadvantages in this approach (which I couldn’t use on my Mac 
> anyway!)
> 
> 1. Assuming you create a new data file for each each unrestricted and 
> restricted 
> account each year, you lose the prompts for recurrent transactions (e.g. 
> Payment to The Corner Shop from the current account to the Expenses:Tea, 
> Milk and Biscuits account). 

Yes, but it's hardly a big loss.  One only has to re-enter a repeated
item once a year!


> 2. Similarly, you lose the capacity to produce multi-year balance sheet 
> and income & expenditure reports to compare the most recent year’s 
> performance 
> against previous years. 

We (or the Diocese) have absolutely no need for multi-year reports.
Anyway it's hardly more difficult to produce a balance sheet for 2021
and a balance sheet for 2022 and compare them. Plus I never have to
change start and end dates for reports, for a particular year they are
cast in stone for all reports.


> 3. If you start to use the new data files immediately the new year begins, 
> you have to enter starting balances for the accounts. If you discover you’ve 
> missed an entry in the previous year, made an incorrect entry, or have 
> issued a cheque which has not been cashed by the year end, you have to 
> remember to adjust for all of these (which would certainly be a problem 
> in my case). 

With 'cash accounting' it's trivial to ensure the end of year figures
are correct, they **must** be the same as the bank statement for 31st
December.  Similarly uncashed cheques simply don't appear, a cheque
payment only appears in the accounts when it is actually debited from
the bank account.

-- 
Chris Green
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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[Michael Hendry]

On 14 Jul 2023, at 13:24, Chris Green  wrote:

> 
> On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 01:06:36PM +0100, Maf. King wrote:
>> On Friday, 14 July 2023 12:34:28 BST Fross, Michael wrote:
>>> I  run multiple instances at the same time, but you have to open different
>>> data files. I’d keep them in different directories to be tidy.
>>> 
>> 
>> I don't do it often, but have had occasion to have GC side-by-side on 2 data 
>> files at the same time.
>> 
>> What I have done is start a 2nd instance of GC, let it warn me that the data 
>> file is in use already, select open read-only then file-> open to the second 
>> data file.  (I have 6 in regular use).  But I'm on Linux, don't know it that 
>> would work the same on any WinOs flavour.
>> 
>> Agree 100% about keeping each data file in its own sub-directory, and about 
>> not 
>> changing prefs while 2 instances are running!
>> 
> I have quite a lot of separate GnuCash 'instances' where 'instance'
> means a GnuCash data file (Sqlite database in my case).

Ah, I was thinking that by “instance” you meant a running copy of GNC with its 
own GNC file. Unless you are running each instance as a different user, my 
understanding is that you’re risking cross-contamination of configuration 
settings, as GNC is a one-file-at-a time product.

> 
> I am a PCC (Parochial Church Council) treasurer, this requires me to
> submit audited accounts to the Diocese each year.  It also requires
> separate accounts for 'restricted' and 'unrestricted' funds. 
> Restricted funds are those donations which have been specifically
> given for the upkeep of our church building as opposed to being used
> for general expenses.
> 
> I thus keep separate GnuCash data files for 'restricted' and
> 'unrestricted' in each financial year.  With a little bit of simple
> scripting (this is Linux) I can go to any year's dirctory and simply
> enter 'gnc' to see that year's current/unrestricted accounts and 'gnb'
> to see the building/restricted accounts. I never have to mess about
> changing the dates on reports to see different years, I never have to
> explicitly specify which data file to use (because it's in the
> directory for the year I'm looking at).

I can see disadvantages in this approach (which I couldn’t use on my Mac 
anyway!)

1. Assuming you create a new data file for each each unrestricted and 
restricted account each year, you lose the prompts for recurrent transactions 
(e.g. Payment to The Corner Shop from the current account to the Expenses:Tea, 
Milk and Biscuits account).
2. Similarly, you lose the capacity to produce multi-year balance sheet and 
income & expenditure reports to compare the most recent year’s performance 
against previous years.
3. If you start to use the new data files immediately the new year begins, you 
have to enter starting balances for the accounts. If you discover you’ve missed 
an entry in the previous year, made an incorrect entry, or have issued a cheque 
which has not been cashed by the year end, you have to remember to adjust for 
all of these (which would certainly be a problem in my case).

(Probably best to start a new thread or take off-list  if you want to continue 
this discussion)

Michael

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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[edodd]

On Fri, 14 Jul 2023 20:02:21 -0500
R Losey  wrote:

> Actually, when a conversation has mixed before-and-after comments, it
> is pretty hard to follow. I don't know if there is a standard for how
> to reply to the list, but it would be good if we would use the same
> one.

I can never see that happening, so I don't worry about it.
Liz (Moderator hat)
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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[edodd]

On Fri, 14 Jul 2023 12:49:25 +0100
Paul Feakins  wrote:

> Anyway, why go as complicated as having a shortcut to the GnuCash 
> executable with an argument?
> 
> Not not have your shortcuts to the data files themselves and the OS
> will know to use GnuCash to open them.

Using Debian and Xfce4, it is just as simple to make the shortcuts with
the /usr/bin/gnucash executable and the data file also in the shortcut.

Of course Mac doesn't know how to open a file in Gnucash, so that
remains different.

Liz
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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[William Prescott]

Just to be a devil's advocate...
The advantage of top posting is that the new addition to the thread is obvious. 
With bottom posting, the new reply appears in the middle of the message, often 
with text both above and below it.

Probably because of the default behavior of many email clients, most email 
chains I see are top posted. This forum is the only place where I commonly see 
bottom posting.

To quote from Wikipedia on the subject:
"For a long time the traditional style was to post the answer below as much of 
the quoted original as was necessary to understand the reply (bottom or 
inline). Many years later, when email became widespread in business 
communication, it became a widespread practice to reply above the entire 
original and leave it (supposedly untouched) below the reply.
While each online community  
differs on which styles are appropriate or acceptable, within some communities 
the use of the "wrong" method risks being seen as a breach of netiquette 
, and can provoke vehement response 
from community regulars."


Personally, I'm neutral. Either is fine with me.

Will

On 14 Jul 2023, at 19:17, Stan Brown  wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 6:50 AM Paul Feakins 
> wrote:
>> With a mailing list such as this, I believe the convention is to put
>> replies at the bottom?

On 2023-07-14 17:56, R Losey wrote:
> Is there really a convention for replies? Gmail puts my replies at the top
> by default (like this), but if they are supposed to be at the bottom, I can
> pretty easily do that as well. But I haven't seen a FAQ or heard that this
> is a convention.

It is a long-standing convention, predating computers, that the response
comes after the thing being responded to. (That's unless you're a
contestant on Jeopardy, of course.)

Without even considering everybody's _other_ email, there are multiple
topics on the GC mailing list, and few people can keep all of that in
their heads. Some brief context (usually _not_ a full quote of the
article) is helpful before making one's response. To me it seems like
basic courtesy for the writer to consider the convenience of the
readers, who outnumber the writer manyfold.

Stan Brown
Tehachapi, CA, USA
https://BrownMath.com
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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[Stan Brown]

> On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 6:50 AM Paul Feakins 
> wrote:
>> With a mailing list such as this, I believe the convention is to put
>> replies at the bottom?

On 2023-07-14 17:56, R Losey wrote:
> Is there really a convention for replies? Gmail puts my replies at the top
> by default (like this), but if they are supposed to be at the bottom, I can
> pretty easily do that as well. But I haven't seen a FAQ or heard that this
> is a convention.

It is a long-standing convention, predating computers, that the response
comes after the thing being responded to. (That's unless you're a
contestant on Jeopardy, of course.)

Without even considering everybody's _other_ email, there are multiple
topics on the GC mailing list, and few people can keep all of that in
their heads. Some brief context (usually _not_ a full quote of the
article) is helpful before making one's response. To me it seems like
basic courtesy for the writer to consider the convenience of the
readers, who outnumber the writer manyfold.

Stan Brown
Tehachapi, CA, USA
https://BrownMath.com
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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[Stephen M. Butler]

I saw this in an email exchange a few years back that can be summarized as:

A3: Then you get email chains like this.

Q3: But I prefer to top post to see what was entered last!


A2: So the response makes sense after reading the relevant question.

Q2: Why bottom post?


A1: Please use bottom posting.

Q1: Do we top or bottom post?



Stephen M Butler
stephen.m.butle...@gmail.com
kg...@arrl.net
253-350-0166
---
GnuPG Fingerprint:  8A25 9726 D439 758D D846 E5D4 282A 5477 0385 81D8

On 7/14/23 17:56, R Losey wrote:

Is there really a convention for replies? Gmail puts my replies at the top
by default (like this), but if they are supposed to be at the bottom, I can
pretty easily do that as well. But I haven't seen a FAQ or heard that this
is a convention.


On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 6:50 AM Paul Feakins  wrote:


With a mailing list such as this, I believe the convention is to put
replies at the bottom?


--

_
Richard Losey
rlo...@gmail.com
Micah 6:8
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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[R Losey]

Actually, when a conversation has mixed before-and-after comments, it is
pretty hard to follow. I don't know if there is a standard for how to reply
to the list, but it would be good if we would use the same one.


On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 3:11 PM David H  wrote:

> No-one really cares any more - top posting saves scrolling through rows of
> someone else's opinion sometimes and gmail doesn't make it easy :-)
>
> Cheers David H.
>
> --
_
Richard Losey
rlo...@gmail.com
Micah 6:8
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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[R Losey]

On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 11:31 AM kschneider bout-tyme.net <
kschnei...@bout-tyme.net> wrote:

>
>
> > On Jul 14, 2023, at 12:20 PM, David Carlson 
> wrote:
> >
> > Nope, Ctrl-End doesn't move the curser at all in a Gmail reply-all
> window.
>
> Then just hi-lite the part you want to reply to before hitting
> reply-to-all. It’s wha I did here.
>
> Ken Schneider


Note that this doesn't work on macOS using the web-based gmail version; it
still quotes everything. Thunderbird is great, and only copies what you
highlight.

-- 
_
Richard Losey
rlo...@gmail.com
Micah 6:8
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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[R Losey]

Is there really a convention for replies? Gmail puts my replies at the top
by default (like this), but if they are supposed to be at the bottom, I can
pretty easily do that as well. But I haven't seen a FAQ or heard that this
is a convention.


On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 6:50 AM Paul Feakins  wrote:

> With a mailing list such as this, I believe the convention is to put
> replies at the bottom?
>
>
> --
_
Richard Losey
rlo...@gmail.com
Micah 6:8
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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[David H]

Reposting to the list as it seems to have been directed solely at me, sorry
about the top posting :-)

Regards David H.


On Sat, 15 Jul 2023 at 06:39, Chris Green  wrote:

> On Sat, Jul 15, 2023 at 06:10:37AM +1000, David H wrote:
> > No-one really cares any more - top posting saves scrolling through rows
> of
> > someone else's opinion sometimes and gmail doesn't make it easy :-)
> >
> The whole point of bottom posting is that you also remove all the bits
> you don't want, just leaving the bit you are replying to.
>
> Even more important is if you are replying to a post which has several
> questions in it, you reply to each question under the question.
>
>
> A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> A: Top-posting.
> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
>
> --
> Chris Green
>
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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[David H]

No-one really cares any more - top posting saves scrolling through rows of
someone else's opinion sometimes and gmail doesn't make it easy :-)

Cheers David H.


On Fri, 14 Jul 2023 at 21:50, Paul Feakins  wrote:

> On 14/07/2023 12:34, Fross, Michael wrote:
> > I  run multiple instances at the same time, but you have to open
> > different data files. I’d keep them in different directories to be tidy.
> >
> > I have two different icons each with a different name of the data file
> > as an argument.
> >
> > There is a an argument to not auto open the last file(no -file?). I’m
> > not near my computer.
> >
> > As a note, I don’t change any settings that are program wide with both
> > running.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> With a mailing list such as this, I believe the convention is to put
> replies at the bottom?
>
> Anyway, why go as complicated as having a shortcut to the GnuCash
> executable with an argument?
>
> Not not have your shortcuts to the data files themselves and the OS will
> know to use GnuCash to open them.
>
> Paul Feakins.
>
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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[kschneider bout-tyme . net]

> On Jul 14, 2023, at 12:20 PM, David Carlson  
> wrote:
> 
> Nope, Ctrl-End doesn't move the curser at all in a Gmail reply-all window.

Then just hi-lite the part you want to reply to before hitting reply-to-all. 
It’s wha I did here.

Ken Schneider 
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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[Paul Feakins]

On 14/07/2023 17:19, David Carlson wrote:

Nope, Ctrl-End doesn't move the curser at all in a Gmail reply-all window.


It does but you have to click the 3 dots to expand the previous 
conversations first.


Also on Apple it would be the Apple key and End.

Paul Feakins.

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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[David Carlson]

Nope, Ctrl-End doesn't move the curser at all in a Gmail reply-all window.

On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 10:53 AM Stan Brown 
wrote:

>
> On 2023-07-14 05:15, David Carlson wrote:
> > You brought up something that I have not been able to solve: namely
> > replying at the bottom in Gmail
> > I gave up on that years ago.
> >  Is there a way to configure Gmail to do that?
>
> Pressing Ctrl+End (or the equivalent in your OS) doesn't just take you
> to the end of the composition window?
>
> In any case, just quoting the entire previous email is usually
> suboptimal. It's more helpful to readers if you quote only enough to
> establish the context of your reply.
>
> And of course there's never a good reason to quote the GC mailing list
> footer -- the mailserver is not smart enough to sense that, so you end
> up with multiple copies of the footer in the message you compose.
>
> Stan Brown
> Tehachapi, CA, USA
> https://BrownMath.com
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-- 
David Carlson
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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[kschneider bout-tyme . net]

> On Jul 14, 2023, at 4:05 AM, Paul Feakins  wrote:
> 
> 
>> 
>>> 
 Question about a matter of setup.  I use Windows 11 - so
 answers/information specific to that OS would be appreciated.
 
 First - can two instances of the program be loaded (exist in the system)
 such that one instance opens a personal file and one opens a business file?
 Second - if answer to question one is yes - is this a preference you can
 set and are there advantages to doing it?
 Third - if answer to question one is no - then is the only way to have
 two separate data files is to load the program and force load the specific
 file you want since the program always default opens to the last file you
 dealt with?
 
 Answers, opinions and other information welcomed.  Thanks!  -- Ken
> 
> I think you're overcomplicating this.
> 
> If you want to load a specific .gnucash file then double-click it.

You can’t do that on macOS, it doesn’t work.

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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[Stan Brown]

On 2023-07-14 05:15, David Carlson wrote:
> You brought up something that I have not been able to solve: namely
> replying at the bottom in Gmail
> I gave up on that years ago.
>  Is there a way to configure Gmail to do that?

Pressing Ctrl+End (or the equivalent in your OS) doesn't just take you
to the end of the composition window?

In any case, just quoting the entire previous email is usually
suboptimal. It's more helpful to readers if you quote only enough to
establish the context of your reply.

And of course there's never a good reason to quote the GC mailing list
footer -- the mailserver is not smart enough to sense that, so you end
up with multiple copies of the footer in the message you compose.

Stan Brown
Tehachapi, CA, USA
https://BrownMath.com
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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[Michael or Penny Novack]

On 7/14/2023 1:14 AM, Ken Pyzik wrote:

Question about a matter of setup.  I use Windows 11 - so answers/information 
specific to that OS would be appreciated.

First - can two instances of the program be loaded (exist in the system) such 
that one instance opens a personal file and one opens a business file?
Second - if answer to question one is yes - is this a preference you can set 
and are there advantages to doing it?
Third - if answer to question one is no - then is the only way to have two 
separate data files is to load the program and force load the specific file you 
want since the program always default opens to the last file you dealt with?

Answers, opinions and other information welcomed.  Thanks!  -- Ken


First --- Best to treat as a "no". Not strictly speaking impossible, but 
leave this for pros who would not be needing to ask how to do it.


Third --- You can try following the suggestions from other how to do. 
But ONE way is to have gnucash start not opening any file (use the 
runtime parameter -nofile) and then select from the drop drop down list 
which you want opened (or specify the file explicitly, which you would 
do if more files than four). That is what those of us who are keeping 
the books for multiple entities are likely to do.


Michael D Novack


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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[Paul Feakins]

On 14/07/2023 13:15, David Carlson wrote:

Paul,

You brought up something that I have not been able to solve: namely 
replying at the bottom in Gmail

I gave up on that years ago.
 Is there a way to configure Gmail to do that?


I use Google Suite with Thunderbird - it has the option, but it only 
applies to all emails and normal work emails I reply above the conversation.


So I just manually put my reply below on a list like this.

Paul Feakins.

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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[Ken Pyzik]

Thanks to all who answered.  All answers/opinions were very good.   Honorable 
mention to David H. for the screen shot!  Thanks!

Ken

From: David H 
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2023 12:57 AM
To: Ken Pyzik 
Cc: Gnucash Users 
Subject: Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

Ken,

In case the shortcut idea wasn't clear - see pic below...  You can set the 
"Start in:" property to wherever your gnucash data file is located, mine is in 
C:\Users\\Documents\Gnucash\Data" as per the pic.  This saves adding a 
path to the file name you pass to Gnucash, and then just include the file name 
after the "Target:" as per example.

Cheers David H.

[cid:image001.png@01D9B618.9BB26390]

On Fri, 14 Jul 2023 at 17:44, David H 
mailto:hell...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Ken,

1. Don't think so
2. See 1.
3. Setup 2 shortcuts using the gnucash file name and probably the file path for 
each file then you can just double click on the appropriate shortcut.  If your 
file paths contain spaces you'll probably need double quotes around them.

Cheers David H.

On Fri, 14 Jul 2023 at 15:15, Ken Pyzik 
mailto:py...@outlook.com>> wrote:
Question about a matter of setup.  I use Windows 11 - so answers/information 
specific to that OS would be appreciated.

First - can two instances of the program be loaded (exist in the system) such 
that one instance opens a personal file and one opens a business file?
Second - if answer to question one is yes - is this a preference you can set 
and are there advantages to doing it?
Third - if answer to question one is no - then is the only way to have two 
separate data files is to load the program and force load the specific file you 
want since the program always default opens to the last file you dealt with?

Answers, opinions and other information welcomed.  Thanks!  -- Ken
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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[Chris Green]

On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 01:06:36PM +0100, Maf. King wrote:
> On Friday, 14 July 2023 12:34:28 BST Fross, Michael wrote:
> > I  run multiple instances at the same time, but you have to open different
> > data files. I’d keep them in different directories to be tidy.
> > 
> 
> I don't do it often, but have had occasion to have GC side-by-side on 2 data 
> files at the same time.
> 
> What I have done is start a 2nd instance of GC, let it warn me that the data 
> file is in use already, select open read-only then file-> open to the second 
> data file.  (I have 6 in regular use).  But I'm on Linux, don't know it that 
> would work the same on any WinOs flavour.
> 
> Agree 100% about keeping each data file in its own sub-directory, and about 
> not 
> changing prefs while 2 instances are running!
> 
I have quite a lot of separate GnuCash 'instances' where 'instance'
means a GnuCash data file (Sqlite database in my case).

I am a PCC (Parochial Church Council) treasurer, this requires me to
submit audited accounts to the Diocese each year.  It also requires
separate accounts for 'restricted' and 'unrestricted' funds. 
Restricted funds are those donations which have been specifically
given for the upkeep of our church building as opposed to being used
for general expenses.

I thus keep separate GnuCash data files for 'restricted' and
'unrestricted' in each financial year.  With a little bit of simple
scripting (this is Linux) I can go to any year's dirctory and simply
enter 'gnc' to see that year's current/unrestricted accounts and 'gnb'
to see the building/restricted accounts. I never have to mess about
changing the dates on reports to see different years, I never have to
explicitly specify which data file to use (because it's in the
directory for the year I'm looking at).

-- 
Chris Green
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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[David Carlson]

Paul,

You brought up something that I have not been able to solve: namely
replying at the bottom in Gmail
I gave up on that years ago.
 Is there a way to configure Gmail to do that?

On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 6:50 AM Paul Feakins  wrote:

> On 14/07/2023 12:34, Fross, Michael wrote:
> > I  run multiple instances at the same time, but you have to open
> > different data files. I’d keep them in different directories to be tidy.
> >
> > I have two different icons each with a different name of the data file
> > as an argument.
> >
> > There is a an argument to not auto open the last file(no -file?). I’m
> > not near my computer.
> >
> > As a note, I don’t change any settings that are program wide with both
> > running.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> With a mailing list such as this, I believe the convention is to put
> replies at the bottom?
>
> Anyway, why go as complicated as having a shortcut to the GnuCash
> executable with an argument?
>
> Not not have your shortcuts to the data files themselves and the OS will
> know to use GnuCash to open them.
>
> Paul Feakins.
>
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-- 
David Carlson
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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[Maf. King]

On Friday, 14 July 2023 12:34:28 BST Fross, Michael wrote:
> I  run multiple instances at the same time, but you have to open different
> data files. I’d keep them in different directories to be tidy.
> 

I don't do it often, but have had occasion to have GC side-by-side on 2 data 
files at the same time.

What I have done is start a 2nd instance of GC, let it warn me that the data 
file is in use already, select open read-only then file-> open to the second 
data file.  (I have 6 in regular use).  But I'm on Linux, don't know it that 
would work the same on any WinOs flavour.

Agree 100% about keeping each data file in its own sub-directory, and about not 
changing prefs while 2 instances are running!

HTH,
Maf.


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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[Paul Feakins]

On 14/07/2023 12:34, Fross, Michael wrote:
I  run multiple instances at the same time, but you have to open 
different data files. I’d keep them in different directories to be tidy.


I have two different icons each with a different name of the data file 
as an argument.


There is a an argument to not auto open the last file(no -file?). I’m 
not near my computer.


As a note, I don’t change any settings that are program wide with both 
running.


Michael

With a mailing list such as this, I believe the convention is to put 
replies at the bottom?


Anyway, why go as complicated as having a shortcut to the GnuCash 
executable with an argument?


Not not have your shortcuts to the data files themselves and the OS will 
know to use GnuCash to open them.


Paul Feakins.

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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[Fross, Michael]

I  run multiple instances at the same time, but you have to open different
data files. I’d keep them in different directories to be tidy.

I have two different icons each with a different name of the data file as
an argument.

There is a an argument to not auto open the last file(no -file?). I’m not
near my computer.

As a note, I don’t change any settings that are program wide with both
running.

Michael

On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 3:05 AM Paul Feakins  wrote:

>
> >
> >>
> >>> Question about a matter of setup.  I use Windows 11 - so
> >>> answers/information specific to that OS would be appreciated.
> >>>
> >>> First - can two instances of the program be loaded (exist in the
> system)
> >>> such that one instance opens a personal file and one opens a business
> file?
> >>> Second - if answer to question one is yes - is this a preference you
> can
> >>> set and are there advantages to doing it?
> >>> Third - if answer to question one is no - then is the only way to have
> >>> two separate data files is to load the program and force load the
> specific
> >>> file you want since the program always default opens to the last file
> you
> >>> dealt with?
> >>>
> >>> Answers, opinions and other information welcomed.  Thanks!  -- Ken
>
> I think you're overcomplicating this.
>
> If you want to load a specific .gnucash file then double-click it.
>
> Paul.
>
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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[Paul Feakins]

Question about a matter of setup.  I use Windows 11 - so
answers/information specific to that OS would be appreciated.

First - can two instances of the program be loaded (exist in the system)
such that one instance opens a personal file and one opens a business file?
Second - if answer to question one is yes - is this a preference you can
set and are there advantages to doing it?
Third - if answer to question one is no - then is the only way to have
two separate data files is to load the program and force load the specific
file you want since the program always default opens to the last file you
dealt with?

Answers, opinions and other information welcomed.  Thanks!  -- Ken


I think you're overcomplicating this.

If you want to load a specific .gnucash file then double-click it.

Paul.

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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[David H]

Ken,

In case the shortcut idea wasn't clear - see pic below...  You can set the
"Start in:" property to wherever your gnucash data file is located, mine is
in C:\Users\\Documents\Gnucash\Data" as per the pic.  This saves
adding a path to the file name you pass to Gnucash, and then just include
the file name after the "Target:" as per example.

Cheers David H.

[image: image.png]

On Fri, 14 Jul 2023 at 17:44, David H  wrote:

> Ken,
>
> 1. Don't think so
> 2. See 1.
> 3. Setup 2 shortcuts using the gnucash file name and probably the file
> path for each file then you can just double click on the appropriate
> shortcut.  If your file paths contain spaces you'll probably need double
> quotes around them.
>
> Cheers David H.
>
> On Fri, 14 Jul 2023 at 15:15, Ken Pyzik  wrote:
>
>> Question about a matter of setup.  I use Windows 11 - so
>> answers/information specific to that OS would be appreciated.
>>
>> First - can two instances of the program be loaded (exist in the system)
>> such that one instance opens a personal file and one opens a business file?
>> Second - if answer to question one is yes - is this a preference you can
>> set and are there advantages to doing it?
>> Third - if answer to question one is no - then is the only way to have
>> two separate data files is to load the program and force load the specific
>> file you want since the program always default opens to the last file you
>> dealt with?
>>
>> Answers, opinions and other information welcomed.  Thanks!  -- Ken
>> ___
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>
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Re: [GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[David H]

Ken,

1. Don't think so
2. See 1.
3. Setup 2 shortcuts using the gnucash file name and probably the file path
for each file then you can just double click on the appropriate shortcut.
If your file paths contain spaces you'll probably need double quotes around
them.

Cheers David H.

On Fri, 14 Jul 2023 at 15:15, Ken Pyzik  wrote:

> Question about a matter of setup.  I use Windows 11 - so
> answers/information specific to that OS would be appreciated.
>
> First - can two instances of the program be loaded (exist in the system)
> such that one instance opens a personal file and one opens a business file?
> Second - if answer to question one is yes - is this a preference you can
> set and are there advantages to doing it?
> Third - if answer to question one is no - then is the only way to have two
> separate data files is to load the program and force load the specific file
> you want since the program always default opens to the last file you dealt
> with?
>
> Answers, opinions and other information welcomed.  Thanks!  -- Ken
> ___
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[GNC] Two Instances as opposed to two separate files

[Ken Pyzik]

Question about a matter of setup.  I use Windows 11 - so answers/information 
specific to that OS would be appreciated.

First - can two instances of the program be loaded (exist in the system) such 
that one instance opens a personal file and one opens a business file?
Second - if answer to question one is yes - is this a preference you can set 
and are there advantages to doing it?
Third - if answer to question one is no - then is the only way to have two 
separate data files is to load the program and force load the specific file you 
want since the program always default opens to the last file you dealt with?

Answers, opinions and other information welcomed.  Thanks!  -- Ken
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