Re: [GNC] splits 3+ accounts, how to

[Eric Siegerman]

On Tue, Apr 24, 2018 at 07:39:20PM -0700, DaveC49 wrote:
> To be fair to GnuCash, I have not been able to find a formal definition of
> split in my accounting text books . The only formal references I could find
> were [a couple of specific cases that are clearly beyond the scope of
> this discussion]

Interesting.

> The use of "split" in Gnucash to describe any of the components of a
> transaction either debit or credit is explained fairly comprehensively in
> the Gnucash documentation  [...]

Oops.  It's been long enough since I've read that that I forgot
it's even there.  Sorry for the noise.

  - Eric
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Re: [GNC] splits 3+ accounts, how to

[Mike or Penny Novack]

On 4/24/2018 10:39 PM, DaveC49 wrote:

Eric, Mike

To be fair to GnuCash, I have not been able to find a formal definition of
split in my accounting text books
In the senses we are using here, there would not be a definition in 
accounting text books. In formal accounting, a transaction is (first) 
entered into the journal with as many lines as needed, one line per 
account, plus one or more lines for description << there must be at 
least two accounts . Simply nothing special about having more than one 
debit account and more than one credit account.


With gnucash we are using "spit" to refer to the process by which we are 
entering transactions. If a transaction affects only two accounts it can 
be entered on one line. But if more than two accounts we have to 
use"split". That changes the view so we can enter the transaction as if 
we were doing it in the journal.


Michael
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Re: [GNC] splits 3+ accounts, how to

[DaveC49]

Eric, Mike

To be fair to GnuCash, I have not been able to find a formal definition of
split in my accounting text books . The only formal references I could find
were under IAS39 which deals with embedded derivatives in a hybrid financial
instrument
(https://www.ventureline.com/accounting-glossary/S/split-accounting-definition/)
and that refers to the host contract in the instrument having to be
accounted separately from the embedded derivative and in cost management
accounting where a split-off point is defined for separate products which
are produced by the same process up to a specific point in their production.
There may be an informal practice of using split as a name or descriptor for
specific operations and perhaps in some specific jurisdictions where the
term may be defined in legislature.

Stock-splits are also generally prefixed by stock so that is clear,
similarly for split-interest. Split Bills of Exchange are the only other
formal reference I could find to usage of the term.

Several other accounting programs use split in a manner analagous to, but
not exactly the same as Gnucash. Xero for example refers to multiple
components of the debit or credit side of a transaction as splits but does
not refer to the debit and credit component themselves as splits which seems
to be similar to what Mike's view of splits. In most cases they describe a
single line entry, being  either a debit or a credit in one account being
split between credits or debits respectively in one or more other ledger
accounts.

The use of "split" in Gnucash to describe any of the components of a
transaction either debit or credit is explained fairly comprehensively in
the Gnucash documentation and the split data structure both reflects and
supports this - it is not separate from it. Although the more common cases
are either 1 debit and several credits or vice versa in a single
transaction, there is no formal accounting restriction to these cases as
long as the split structure describes the transaction adequately.



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David Cousens
--
Sent from: http://gnucash.1415818.n4.nabble.com/GnuCash-User-f1415819.html
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Re: [GNC] splits 3+ accounts, how to

[Mike or Penny Novack]

On 4/22/2018 9:38 AM, Derek Atkins wrote:

E.. Thus, what in accounting terms is a
simple, un-split transaction, is stored in GnuCash as two
"splits" (one each for the debit and credit entries).


The reason we old timers don't see it that way.

In old pen and in on paper bookkeeping for each transaction there is one 
entry in the journal (with at least one debit and one credit) but just 
like with gnucash there would be at least TWO entries when posted into 
the ledger, one in each of the (at least two) accounts affected.


Gnucash is a ledger without a journal (virtual journal; gnucash can show 
it to you if you ask). It is doing just the ledger part. So to folks 
like me (who grew up doing bookkeeping pen and in on accounting paper) 
we don't see gnucash doing any splitting of simple transactions.


Michael D Novack


--
There is no possibility of social justice on a dead planet except the equality 
of the grave.

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Re: [GNC] splits 3+ accounts, how to

[Eric Siegerman]

On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 09:38:23AM -0400, Derek Atkins wrote:
> I find it's *usually* easy to determine based on context.  A Split, by
> itself, usually means an individual Gnucash Split.  On the other hand, a
> Split Transaction usually implies a transaction with >2 splits.

To be sure, as an adjective, "split" pretty reliably indicates
the accounting sense.

As a noun it likely means the GNC-internal one -- but only when
coming from someone who's aware of the distinction.  AFAIK,
that's a GnuCash-specific usage.

Counterexample: the OP wrote:
| I've tried to learn how to do a three way split like entering [...]
No problem; I do *not* mean this as a criticism, however mild.

My main point was to give a heads-up to newish users (or at
least, newish list subscribers) that they might see the term
"split" used in a sense they weren't expecting; and if so, how to
make heads or tails (umm, debits or credits? :-) ) of what's
being said.

  - Eric
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Re: [GNC] splits 3+ accounts, how to

[Derek Atkins]

Eric Siegerman  writes:

> On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 04:29:49PM -0400, Mike or Penny Novack wrote:
>> Ah .. That is what had me confused about "three way splits"
>
> To make things worse, the GnuCash source code uses "split" in yet
> another way:  each of a transaction's entries is stored in a data
> structure called a split.  Thus, what in accounting terms is a
> simple, un-split transaction, is stored in GnuCash as two
> "splits" (one each for the debit and credit entries).
>
> One often has to stop and think about whether someone means
> "split" in the GnuCash-internal or the formal accounting sense
> :-/

I find it's *usually* easy to determine based on context.  A Split, by
itself, usually means an individual Gnucash Split.  On the other hand, a
Split Transaction usually implies a transaction with >2 splits.

There are, of course, times when the context is ambiguous, but I find
this is accurate most of the time.

>   -Eric

> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
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-derek

-- 
   Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory
   Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board  (SIPB)
   URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/PP-ASEL-IA N1NWH
   warl...@mit.eduPGP key available
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Re: [GNC] splits 3+ accounts, how to

[Eric Siegerman]

On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 04:29:49PM -0400, Mike or Penny Novack wrote:
> Ah .. That is what had me confused about "three way splits"

To make things worse, the GnuCash source code uses "split" in yet
another way:  each of a transaction's entries is stored in a data
structure called a split.  Thus, what in accounting terms is a
simple, un-split transaction, is stored in GnuCash as two
"splits" (one each for the debit and credit entries).

One often has to stop and think about whether someone means
"split" in the GnuCash-internal or the formal accounting sense
:-/

  -Eric
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Re: [GNC] splits 3+ accounts, how to

[Mike or Penny Novack]

Ah .. That is what had me confused about "three way splits"

1) A single debit and more than one credit or a single credit and more 
than one debit I would call a "one way split" (only one side of the 
transaction is split). You enter these beginning with the side that is 
single (enter transaction from that account) but instead of hitting 
enter, hit split. That will bring up an expanded view of the 
transaction. Simply change the amount (on the split side) and specify 
the account and hit enter. What remains will appear on a new line as 
Imbalance, change that to the correct account, change the amount to be 
right for that account, and hit enter.


2) What I would call a "two way split" would be a transaction that is 
split on BOTH the debit and the credit side. I suggest people not 
attempt those until pretty experienced with one way splits. It will take 
a little "playing around" to get a two way split transaction entered, so 
for now easier to use two consecutive transactions.


Michael D Novack
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Re: [GNC] splits 3+ accounts, how to

[Rick Copple]

On 04/20/2018 10:58 AM, Rich Shepard wrote:

Perhaps I can provide an example that helps.

  When I pay my mortgage each month I assign the total payment to 3
debit acounts accessed using the Split menu function.

  The standard three debits (increases) are: Expense -> Mortgage 
interest,

Expense -> Mortgage escrow, and Liability -> Mortgage principal.

  The total of these three amounts are offset by their total in the 
credit
(decrease) to my checking account. 


I think what you may be missing is in splits, there has to be a line for 
the current register's transaction in the split itself. So for example 
the above example would look something like this:


Checking account:   $1000.00
Mortgage Interest: $100.00
Mortgage escrow:  $300.00
Mortgage Principle;   $600.00


When you do the above, $1000.00 would appear in the checking account 
line from the split where you enter the amount for the checking account. 
You don't enter it directly, but in the splits. So you're 3 part split 
is actually a 4 part split. :)


--
Rick Copple
Window Cleaning Specialist


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Re: [GNC] splits 3+ accounts, how to

[Eric Siegerman]

On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 01:24:50PM -0400, Eric Siegerman wrote:
> 3. "Unbalanced CAD" (or whatever) [...] just means
> "you're not done finagling yet".

Corollary: even if you've committed the transaction, and thus
ended up with an "Unbalanced XXX" in your accounts list -- no
harm done.  Just go back and edit the transaction(s) in question,
and all will be well.  To do that:
  - open the register for "Unbalanced XXX"
  - edit each transaction in turn; as you do it will vanish from
"Unbalanced XXX"
  - repeat until "Unbalanced XXX" is empty

Same goes for "Orphan XXX".

  - Eric
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Re: [GNC] splits 3+ accounts, how to

[Eric Siegerman]

A few things I've learned the hard way:

1. A split transaction usually has one debit and several credits, or
vice versa.  Whichever side there's only one of, enter that one *first*.
Otherwise things tend to get tangled up -- not beyond recovery, but it's
easier to stay out of that situation than to get back out of it.

E.g.

On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 08:58:55AM -0700, Rich Shepard wrote:
>   When I pay my mortgage each month I assign the total payment to 3
> debit acounts accessed using the Split menu function.
> [...]
>   The total of these three amounts are offset by their total in the credit
> (decrease) to my checking account.

In this case, start with the (single) credit.

1b. Occasionally a transaction does want both multiple debits and
multiple credits.  Treat those as an advanced topic, and avoid them
until you've wrapped your head around the simpler case.

2. Sometimes it takes some finagling to get right.

3. "Unbalanced CAD" (or whatever) doesn't mean "you've screwed up
*again*, you dummy!", as I interpreted it at first.  It just means
"you're not done finagling yet".

  - Eric
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Re: [GNC] splits 3+ accounts, how to

[Rich Shepard]

On Fri, 20 Apr 2018, Adrien Monteleone wrote:


You may find it helpful to use a different register view than the default
if you are regularly dealing with multiple splits in transactions.


  Perhaps I can provide an example that helps.

  When I pay my mortgage each month I assign the total payment to 3
debit acounts accessed using the Split menu function.

  The standard three debits (increases) are: Expense -> Mortgage interest,
Expense -> Mortgage escrow, and Liability -> Mortgage principal.

  The total of these three amounts are offset by their total in the credit
(decrease) to my checking account.

HTH,

Rich
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Re: [GNC] splits 3+ accounts, how to

[Adrien Monteleone]

Please be sure to copy the list on replies. Others may benefit from the 
conversation.

Have you read the Help Guide or Tutorial & Concepts Guide?

You can find them both here: http://gnucash.org/docs.phtml

Those should explain thoroughly enough how to enter transactions with example 
screen shots.

You may find it helpful to use a different register view than the default if 
you are regularly dealing with multiple splits in transactions.

In the View menu, select Transaction Journal and also Double Line. This will 
show you all splits at all times, and a ‘note' line for each transaction. You 
can always toggle either back later if you prefer. If you like a particular set 
of view options, you can change them to be the default in the preferences 
dialog. (under Register Defaults tab)

If you prefer the formal “debit/credit” labels, that can be set as well in 
preferences. (‘Use formal accounting labels’ under Accounts tab)

Regards,
Adrien

> On Apr 20, 2018, at 3:59 AM, Peter M. Coons  wrote:
> 
> I know what it is.  I don't know how to do it in GNUcash
> 
> a step by step example or a second tutorial would help.
> 
> 
> On 04/20/2018 12:50 AM, Adrien Monteleone wrote:
>> Peter,
>> 
>> Not sure what you mean by 3-way split.
>> 
>> Do you mean 3 splits total? Certainly, that is possible.
>> 
>> A transaction can have many, many splits.
>> 
>> One split will be a debit.
>> One will be a credit.
>> The others will either be debits or credits as needed, BUT...
>> 
>> The total of all debits must be the same as the total of all credits.
>> 
>> For a simple example:
>> 
>> Dr. Expenses:Dining  $100
>> Dr. Expenses:Tips$ 20
>>  Cr. Assets:Cash $120
>> 
>> That’s a transaction with 3 splits that balances. Is this similar to what 
>> you are trying to accomplish?
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Adrien
>> 
>>> I've tried to learn how to do a three way split like entering a months
>>> of checks and after an hour still can't get it right.  a step by step or
>>> other help would be great.
>>> 
>>> Thanks in advance
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> 


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Re: [GNC] splits 3+ accounts, how to

[Adrien Monteleone]

Peter,

Not sure what you mean by 3-way split.

Do you mean 3 splits total? Certainly, that is possible.

A transaction can have many, many splits.

One split will be a debit.
One will be a credit.
The others will either be debits or credits as needed, BUT...

The total of all debits must be the same as the total of all credits.

For a simple example:

Dr. Expenses:Dining $100
Dr. Expenses:Tips   $ 20
Cr. Assets:Cash $120

That’s a transaction with 3 splits that balances. Is this similar to what you 
are trying to accomplish?

Regards,
Adrien

> I've tried to learn how to do a three way split like entering a months 
> of checks and after an hour still can't get it right.  a step by step or 
> other help would be great.
> 
> Thanks in advance

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Re: [GNC] splits 3+ accounts, how to

[Mike or Penny Novack]

On 4/19/2018 5:19 PM, Peter M. Coons wrote:
I've tried to learn how to do a three way split like entering a months 
of checks and after an hour still can't get it right.  a step by step 
or other help would be great.


Thanks in advance 

What are you calling a "three way split"?

Michael D Novack
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[GNC] splits 3+ accounts, how to

[Peter M. Coons]

I've tried to learn how to do a three way split like entering a months 
of checks and after an hour still can't get it right.  a step by step or 
other help would be great.


Thanks in advance

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