Re: For UK users: Will gnucash get ready for Making Tax, Digital ?

[Wm via gnucash-user]

On 23/08/2017 18:11, mike.m...@gmx.net wrote:

A little more reading.

[1]https://www.cchdaily.co.uk/lords-probe-software-companies-lack-readiness-m

aking-tax-digital


Please note that this link is mostly outdated, espcially the deadlines
mentioned are not any more applicable.

The general gist of the linked article is worth reading though.

HMRC's official statements, last updated 13 July 2017, are here.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/making-tax-digital/overview-
of-making-tax-digital

References

1. 
https://www.cchdaily.co.uk/lords-probe-software-companies-lack-readiness-making-tax-digital



I think this is a non-issue for gnc and most people that need to account 
for themselves and other people to HMRC.#


Why make gnc do something when the government haven't even said what 
they want in a spreadsheet.


Fellow travellers, this is not a big issue for the vast majority of UK 
users of gnc (the grand body doesn't exist)


--
Wm

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Re: For UK users: Will gnucash get ready for Making Tax, Digital ?

[Mike Evans]

A little more reading.

https://www.cchdaily.co.uk/lords-probe-software-companies-lack-readiness-making-tax-digital

and 

https://github.com/hmrc
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Re: For UK users: Will gnucash get ready for Making Tax, Digital ?

[Adonay Felipe Nogueira]

I see what you mean now... this seems similar to the copyright
related laws in China (which unfortunatelly make GPL'd software in a state
similar to public domain), there was a debate about this in
libreplanet-discuss
([[https://lists.gnu.org/archive/cgi-bin/namazu.cgi?query=%2Bsubject%3A%7Bsuggestion%2Fhelp.+GPL+enforcement.%7D=Search%21=libreplanet-discuss=20=normal=date%3Alate]]),
and so far, it's considered that, in the case of China, an *inside*
change is needed, although it doesn't turn the software as non-free, it
does pose a problem for GPL enforcement in China.

I guess the same *inside* intervention is needed in the case of those
affected by Making Tax Digital.

I guess the proccess of MTD could be simplified if the signature check
would be made against the accountant's signature (the person responsible
for things like: registering the transactions, checking if the
transactions registered by third-parties are correct, closing the
periodic book, and so on). The files produced by such accountant could
be signed using techniques like GnuPG.

However, I would like to note that it's important to avoid signing
techniques such as CAdES, XAdES and PAdES, because:

- I don't know if there is free/libre firmware that works with signing
  tokens.

- I don't know if there is free/libre module/driver that is able to
  interact with the token's firmware.

- I don't know if there is free/libre software that is able to
  understand how to understand, define and call basic operations
  concerning these standards.

This was indeed a recent debate during FLISoL 2017 Balneário Camboriú
([[https://flisol.info/FLISOL2017/Brasil/BalnearioCamboriu]]), a free
software event that happened in the city of Balneário Camboriú, Santa
Catarina, Brazil, Latin America. In that event, those involved noticed
the lack of knowledge of the existance of free/libre software to deal
with these standards.

Buddha Buck  writes:

> As far as I am aware, there shouldn't be any licensing issues on the FOSS
> side about including a government-granted key in the distribution. There are
> severe technical issues, which may impact licensing, in keeping the
> government-granted key a secret. Since the last bit is the important part, as
> far as the government key-granter is concerned, it becomes a problem. The
> nature of FOSS doesn't prevent people from making derivatives of the software
> and use the same key, which is also a problem as far as the government
> key-granter is concerned.
>
> There are also philosophical issues with creating FOSS software you can't
> change without breaking functionality, which the government-granted
> key-branding of authorized software would do. From the government
> key-grantor's perspective, changing the software invalidates the key, even if
> there isn't any way for them to tell. If it's illegal to use an invalid key
> (or a key from a different software package), then merely doing what FOSS is
> intended to allow you to do is breaking the law. If there's no way to modify
> a piece of FOSS software legally, is it really FOSS? I think not.
>
> On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 12:40 PM Adonay Felipe Nogueira
>  wrote:
>
>  Just to make usre that I'm clear: My last message about keeping *my*
>  mouth closed was a way to tell that *I* won't comment on that for now
>  because I'd still have to study and gather proof. That is: That message
>  was not meant to be harsh towards someone.
>
>  I hope this helps. :)
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Re: For UK users: Will gnucash get ready for Making Tax, Digital ?

[Buddha Buck]

As far as I am aware, there shouldn't be any licensing issues on the FOSS
side about including a government-granted key in the distribution. There
are severe technical issues, which may impact licensing, in keeping the
government-granted key a secret. Since the last bit is the important part,
as far as the government key-granter is concerned, it becomes a problem.
The nature of FOSS doesn't prevent people from making derivatives of the
software and use the same key, which is also a problem as far as the
government key-granter is concerned.

There are also philosophical issues with creating FOSS software you can't
change without breaking functionality, which the government-granted
key-branding of authorized software would do. From the government
key-grantor's perspective, changing the software invalidates the key, even
if there isn't any way for them to tell. If it's illegal to use an invalid
key (or a key from a different software package), then merely doing what
FOSS is intended to allow you to do is breaking the law. If there's no way
to modify a piece of FOSS software legally, is it really FOSS? I think not.





On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 12:40 PM Adonay Felipe Nogueira <
adf...@openmailbox.org> wrote:

> Just to make usre that I'm clear: My last message about keeping *my*
> mouth closed was a way to tell that *I* won't comment on that for now
> because I'd still have to study and gather proof. That is: That message
> was not meant to be harsh towards someone.
>
> I hope this helps. :)
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Re: For UK users: Will gnucash get ready for Making Tax, Digital ?

[Adonay Felipe Nogueira]

Just to make usre that I'm clear: My last message about keeping *my*
mouth closed was a way to tell that *I* won't comment on that for now
because I'd still have to study and gather proof. That is: That message
was not meant to be harsh towards someone.

I hope this helps. :)
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Re: For UK users: Will gnucash get ready for Making Tax, Digital ?

[Alain Williams]

On Tue, Aug 01, 2017 at 11:19:23AM -0300, Adonay Felipe Nogueira wrote:
> I don't know if there's a licensing issue or not in regards to having a
> file include/inclusion with such key, so I'll just keep my mouth closed
> for now on that matter. :)

I am sure that many will not be so coy and keep their mouths shut!

> Perhaps, though, instead of requiring a file include/inclusion that
> would theoretically have the key, perhaps one could make the program
> accept an optional configuration (or build) option that expects for the
> string containing the key (not necessarily a file). Of course, this must
> also be carefully studied because I don't know if there is a licensing
> issue with this (or furthermore, a software freedom issue).

This is all going to depend on what HMRC deem acceptable. The technical bit is
going to be the easy part.

-- 
Alain Williams
Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT 
Lecturer.
+44 (0) 787 668 0256  http://www.phcomp.co.uk/
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Re: For UK users: Will gnucash get ready for Making Tax, Digital ?

[Adonay Felipe Nogueira]

I don't know if there's a licensing issue or not in regards to having a
file include/inclusion with such key, so I'll just keep my mouth closed
for now on that matter. :)

Perhaps, though, instead of requiring a file include/inclusion that
would theoretically have the key, perhaps one could make the program
accept an optional configuration (or build) option that expects for the
string containing the key (not necessarily a file). Of course, this must
also be carefully studied because I don't know if there is a licensing
issue with this (or furthermore, a software freedom issue).
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Re: For UK users: Will gnucash get ready for Making Tax, Digital ?

[Maf. King]

On Tuesday, 1 August 2017 11:24:19 BST Alain Williams wrote:

> > Out of curiosity, who wants MTD?
> 
> I don't. It will involve me in a lot of extra work that adds nothing to my
> business.
> 
> I am happy with doing VAT on-line -- just login to HMRC web site, enter a
> few numbers into a web page, download a PDF and transfer some money -
> simple.

+1

VAT already seems quite digital enough, thank you.

Just by way of a comment - the HMRC Basic PAYE tools (for payroll reporting), 
which is available for (32 bit) linux and some other operating systems keeps a 
local database and (allegedly) just sends xml (or json, haven't paid much 
attention) submissions to HMRC when told to.

But really, VAT is so much simpler than PAYE, so sending the correct 6 numbers 
to HMRC 4 times a year seems to me that the current web form should be quite 
adequate.  Don't really see the advantages (even from their point of view) of 
anything more complicated.  Low hanging fruit, perhaps, for the government to 
actually claim to have delivered an IT project nearly on time and nearly on 
budget?!

Maf.


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Re: For UK users: Will gnucash get ready for Making Tax, Digital ?

[Alain Williams]

On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 02:13:48PM -0500, GWB wrote:

> But who knows.  I'm averse to having information stored in a digital
> format on government servers because it will eventually be hacked,
> stolen, or otherwise used for something other than the original and
> limited intention (you can pick your favourite bogeyman here; your own

Ditto for 'free on-line apps' that government seem to be fond of promoting as
the solution to MTD. I want to keep control of my own data; not have is data
mined and sold to the highest bidder by some 'free' web site. I also have no
intention of doing my accounting via my mobile 'phone.

> FOSS doesn't work for the reasons Buddha Buck outlined, and more.  It
> would be great if someone volunteered to work on a txf export template
> for MTD.  Beyond that, I'm not sure how the devs would "hard wire" MTD
> (or other jurisdiction specific) features into gnucash that would meet
> the requirements of the Swedish or UK governments.  That sounds like a
> lot of extra effort even if it were possible.  I think Alain has it
> right, and perhaps its easiest to use the txf export from gnucash to
> import to another program.

Ideally this program could do the MTD reporting/connect-to-hmrc-servers
directly. It would be as small as possible. This would leave the bulk of the
work inside gnucash.

The rubbing point of a 'secret' in-built key/program-id (if HMRC remain 
obdurate).
The program could be Open Source but closed build: by which I mean all of the
source could be open except for the key - which would be a few lines of
string/something constant brought in by a #include. This could then be packaged
up (RPM/DEB/...) and made available for free use.

There is no guarantee that HMRC would accept this. They seem to be keep to
validate the accounting program and the secret key in the comms module is their
way of doing this. They might decide that they want to validate the identity of
more than the transfer program -- after all this program would accept an export
file from anything that can generate a syntactically correct format.

I could see this program being used with other accounting programs (ie non
gnucash) that share this MTD problem - that is the nice thing about having a
well defined interface.

Such a program could be used as basis of a family of 'export' programs needed by
various governments; we can expect this sort of requirement to become more
widely mandated. Some of them could be truly Open Source, others (as in the UK) 
might
need to be Open Source but closed build.

This ''Open Source but closed build'' is not a problem from the licensing point
of view. If I write a program from scratch I get to choose the license; no
reason that I cannot choose GPL with a couple of extra paragraphs. Which
repository the Debian guys put it into - is their discussion, not mine. [[I'll
start a chat with a Debian maintainer friend of mine.]]

I am still willing to work on it. But I will need some help.

> You might be stuck with using gnucash for the bookkeeping, and then
> digita for the reporting.  I agree that is "sub optimal", but that
> describes tax compliance in most jurisdictions.

> Out of curiosity, who wants MTD?

I don't. It will involve me in a lot of extra work that adds nothing to my 
business.

I am happy with doing VAT on-line -- just login to HMRC web site, enter a few
numbers into a web page, download a PDF and transfer some money - simple.

-- 
Alain Williams
Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT 
Lecturer.
+44 (0) 787 668 0256  http://www.phcomp.co.uk/
Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: 
http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php
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Re: For UK users: Will gnucash get ready for Making Tax, Digital ?

[Fred Bone]

On 31 July 2017 at 13:55, Derek Atkins said:

> Mike,
> 
> mike.m...@gmx.net writes:
> 
> >[If you don't mind me saying this: I haven't seen mailman lists for
> >quite some years and I was a little surprised to see they still
> >exist. I could not find any way how to add another comment to a given
> >thread, despite having started the thread myself.  This contribution
> >may well appear as a new thread]
[...]
> 
> to add to a thread you just need to reply to a message
> in that thread, like how I'm replying to your message here.

However, that won't work for someone getting plaintext digests, which are 
(obviously) missing the necessary Message-ID: headers.

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Re: For UK users: Will gnucash get ready for Making Tax, Digital ?

[GWB]

This reminds me of an earlier question from a user in Sweden.
Apparently governments (Sweden in that case, the UK in this one) are
getting into the habit of specifying not only acceptable tax software
but also accounting software.  The UK has not yet required businesses
of a certain size to use specifically approved tax or accounting
software (have they?), but it seems that Making Tax Digital might lead
there.

But who knows.  I'm averse to having information stored in a digital
format on government servers because it will eventually be hacked,
stolen, or otherwise used for something other than the original and
limited intention (you can pick your favourite bogeyman here; your own
government, the Russians, the Chinese, cyber criminals, etc.)   In a
better world, when HMRC (or the IRS, or the Australia Tax Office)
requires something, it should provide the software to do it, free.  It
appears that in the UK you won't have a choice after 2018.

Thompson Reuters already makes MTD software, or close to it:

https://www.digita.com/pro/making-tax-digital/what-is-making-tax-digital.aspx

Why not ask (and suggest!) HMRC and the MTD office if they will be
paying for the cost of the compliance software?  Users could deduct
the cost of the software from their VAT payments (quarterly?  It's not
clear to me).  And it would be great if the MTD software worked with
gnucash .txf imports.  You can do a lot to customise the txf exports
from gnucash.  Compliance software might already be "write off" (it's
been a while since I looked at the UK regs), but much nicer if paid
for by HMRC up front.

I would worry about keeping "electronic records on transaction basis",
but that's a larger discussion.  It will likely be introduced as a way
to reduce reporting errors, but like FACTA in the US, it will be used
in a way to penalise the vast majority of law abiding citizens and
firms in order to try to dig up criminal activity.

FOSS doesn't work for the reasons Buddha Buck outlined, and more.  It
would be great if someone volunteered to work on a txf export template
for MTD.  Beyond that, I'm not sure how the devs would "hard wire" MTD
(or other jurisdiction specific) features into gnucash that would meet
the requirements of the Swedish or UK governments.  That sounds like a
lot of extra effort even if it were possible.  I think Alain has it
right, and perhaps its easiest to use the txf export from gnucash to
import to another program.

You might be stuck with using gnucash for the bookkeeping, and then
digita for the reporting.  I agree that is "sub optimal", but that
describes tax compliance in most jurisdictions.  Out of curiosity, who
wants MTD?  Is it mostly HMRC and large firms which can easily comply
with new regs to the disadvantage of their smaller competitors?
Sounds like the EU (or the US) to me.  You can like or dislike Brexit,
but one thing it does is give UK citizens more say over their own
governance.  If MTD has been delayed because of Brexit, that's
probably good; the government should be devoting its energies on
something like a Swiss solution to synchronise UK regs with both WTO
and the EU.  MTD seems a lesser priority (but I do agree with you that
the snap general election was a dumb idea).  Sorry you have to put up
with it.

Gordon

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 4:01 AM, Geert Janssens
 wrote:
> A shared library would even better imo. Similar to what aqbanking does for 
> online bank communications.
>
> That would allow for easier integration with gnucash and even other open 
> source applications that wish to interact with HMRC.
>
> Regards,
> Geert
>
> Alain Williams  schreef op 27 juli 2017 11:01:10 CEST:
>>On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 12:52:41AM +, Buddha Buck wrote:
>>
>>> GnuCash does not currently (to my knowledge) support any
>>> jurisdiction-specify tax policy or reporting requirements. To do so
>>for one
>>> would imply that it should do so for all, and that is a maintenance
>>> nightmare. As such, I think it more likely that someone would write a
>>> program that can take reports or data that GnuCash can already
>>generate
>>> (CSV exports? OFX exports?) and uploads the necessary info to HMRC.
>>
>>A small program that takes a well defined import and can talk the HMRC
>>Making
>>Tax Difficult protocol might be the best way forwards; similar programs
>>could
>>then also be written to talk to the tax people in other countries -
>>without
>>cluttering up the core of Gnucash.
>>
>>I am not sure, however, if this would be enough to keep HMRC happy -
>>they seem
>>to want verification of the whole accounts program ... I am talking
>>about a
>>standalone shim/add-on.
>>
>>I know many companies that have their own accounts s/ware, written over
>>many
>>years that does just what they need. MTD could cause huge problems if
>>there is a
>>lot of effort in getting these certified or if the companies need to
>>change to
>>use an off-the-shelf/bought-in package.
>>
>>I don't 

Re: For UK users: Will gnucash get ready for Making Tax, Digital ?

[Derek Atkins]

Mike,

mike.m...@gmx.net writes:

>[If you don't mind me saying this: I haven't seen mailman lists for
>quite some years and I was a little surprised to see they still exist.
>I could not find any way how to add another comment to a given thread,
>despite having started the thread myself.  This contribution may well
>appear as a new thread]

That's funny -- I see mailman lists every day (not just gnucash -- I'm
subscribed to several dozen lists, all run by mailman).  You must be
hiding under a rock (or living in some non-technical land) to have not
seen mailman.   Then again, it still surprises me when I see an actual
LISTSERV list pop up on my radar.

Having said that, to add to a thread you just need to reply to a message
in that thread, like how I'm replying to your message here.

Enjoy,

> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

-derek

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Re: For UK users: Will gnucash get ready for Making Tax, Digital ?

[Geert Janssens]

A shared library would even better imo. Similar to what aqbanking does for 
online bank communications.

That would allow for easier integration with gnucash and even other open source 
applications that wish to interact with HMRC.

Regards,
Geert

Alain Williams  schreef op 27 juli 2017 11:01:10 CEST:
>On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 12:52:41AM +, Buddha Buck wrote:
>
>> GnuCash does not currently (to my knowledge) support any
>> jurisdiction-specify tax policy or reporting requirements. To do so
>for one
>> would imply that it should do so for all, and that is a maintenance
>> nightmare. As such, I think it more likely that someone would write a
>> program that can take reports or data that GnuCash can already
>generate
>> (CSV exports? OFX exports?) and uploads the necessary info to HMRC.
>
>A small program that takes a well defined import and can talk the HMRC
>Making
>Tax Difficult protocol might be the best way forwards; similar programs
>could
>then also be written to talk to the tax people in other countries -
>without
>cluttering up the core of Gnucash.
>
>I am not sure, however, if this would be enough to keep HMRC happy -
>they seem
>to want verification of the whole accounts program ... I am talking
>about a
>standalone shim/add-on.
>
>I know many companies that have their own accounts s/ware, written over
>many
>years that does just what they need. MTD could cause huge problems if
>there is a
>lot of effort in getting these certified or if the companies need to
>change to
>use an off-the-shelf/bought-in package.
>
>I don't think that HMRC have thought about it from anything other than
>their own perspective.
>
>On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 08:03:45PM -0700, John Ralls wrote:
>
>> GnuCash can generate TXF files that certain US and German tax prep
>software can support. Alex Aycinena maintains the former and Christian
>Stimming the latter, but Christian has had real life intervene and
>doesn’t at present have time to contribute code to GnuCash so I suspect
>that the German version is out of date.
>> 
>> If anyone else would like to contribute a similar report for their
>country we’ll be happy to add it to the distribution, but one should
>bear in mind that doing so is a commitment to maintain it with
>typically annual updates.
>> 
>> That applies to MTD as well: Of our current regular contributors only
>Mike Evans is British; if he’s not motivated to develop the support
>someone else from the UK will have to step up or it won’t happen.
>
>I would be willing to help here.
>
>However: I know nothing about Gnucash, neither as a developer nor a
>user. My own
>small business accounts are essentially manual; if it were not for MTD
>I would
>not see any benefit in changing this - so I want what will be least
>effort to
>keep HMRC off my back.
>
>-- 
>Alain Williams
>Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer,
>IT Lecturer.
>+44 (0) 787 668 0256  http://www.phcomp.co.uk/
>Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information:
>http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php
>#include 
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Re: For UK users: Will gnucash get ready for Making Tax Digital ?

[Alain Williams]

On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 04:51:27PM +0100, Colin Law wrote:

> I don't think it is about stopping fiddling, I think it is about
> saving money. If everything is done digitally by us then there is less
> for government employees to do, so cost saving.

But tax has had to be submitted digitally for a few years already. So: that job
was already done.

-- 
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Lecturer.
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Re: For UK users: Will gnucash get ready for Making Tax Digital ?

[Colin Law]

On 27 July 2017 at 16:31, Alain Williams  wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 10:22:40AM -0500, Tommy Trussell wrote:
>
>> SO (in my opinion, not a UK citizen, other disclaimers applicable, etc.)
>> it's not a mathematical problem, it's a political one.
>
> +1
>
> Which comes back to the question: what it MTD really about ?
>
> I suspect that they want a 'closed box' accounting package where, once 
> entered,
> numbers/invoices/... cannot be changed - which means that it is harder for
> someone to fiddle the books.
>
> They are starting with small business and landlords - which quite ignores the
> fact that most fiddling is done by expensive accountants who work for the 
> large
> international companies (who also offer civil servants nice consultancies upon
> retirement).

I don't think it is about stopping fiddling, I think it is about
saving money. If everything is done digitally by us then there is less
for government employees to do, so cost saving.

Colin
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Re: For UK users: Will gnucash get ready for Making Tax Digital ?

[Alain Williams]

On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 10:22:40AM -0500, Tommy Trussell wrote:

> SO (in my opinion, not a UK citizen, other disclaimers applicable, etc.)
> it's not a mathematical problem, it's a political one.

+1

Which comes back to the question: what it MTD really about ?

I suspect that they want a 'closed box' accounting package where, once entered,
numbers/invoices/... cannot be changed - which means that it is harder for
someone to fiddle the books.

They are starting with small business and landlords - which quite ignores the
fact that most fiddling is done by expensive accountants who work for the large
international companies (who also offer civil servants nice consultancies upon
retirement).

-- 
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Lecturer.
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Re: For UK users: Will gnucash get ready for Making Tax Digital ?

[Tommy Trussell]

On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 5:55 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) <
drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote:

> On 25 July 2017 at 17:54, David Goodenough <
> david.goodeno...@linkchoose.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> > There is a problem.  They want to assign a secret ID to each piece of
> > software
> > and so if you say it is open source they then refuse to allocate an ID as
> > it
> > will not be secret.  I have raised this with the cabinet office digital
> > dept,
> > and they acknowledge that this effectively bans open source which is
> > against
> > official government policy.  They are trying to get this changed.
> >
> > David
> >
>
> I must admit I can't quite think how, but I'm sure some cryptology expert
> could find a solution. Although I don't do it now, I was a regular
> developer of the sagemath open-source maths program, started by Prof.
> William Stein at the University of Washington.
>
> http://www.sagemath.org/
>
> Prof Stein is an expert in number theory, and many of the users of that
> package are too. I will drop a few of them an email, and see if any of them
> can come up with a solution.
>
> Dave
>

It seems to me that the ONLY way such a validation scheme could work would
be to have a "canonical" version approved by the government, which they
could implement by having a designated maintainer for each open source
package, who is basically responsible for managing the keys necessary for
validation.

If anyone can build it themselves, then ANYONE can build it themselves,
even people you don't trust. SO you have to implement a way to establish
trustworthiness.

Linux distributions do this already, independently of government entities.
The real issue is whether it is possible to implement this on a
governmental level.

SO (in my opinion, not a UK citizen, other disclaimers applicable, etc.)
it's not a mathematical problem, it's a political one.



> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
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Re: For UK users: Will gnucash get ready for Making Tax, Digital ?

[Alain Williams]

On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 12:52:41AM +, Buddha Buck wrote:

> GnuCash does not currently (to my knowledge) support any
> jurisdiction-specify tax policy or reporting requirements. To do so for one
> would imply that it should do so for all, and that is a maintenance
> nightmare. As such, I think it more likely that someone would write a
> program that can take reports or data that GnuCash can already generate
> (CSV exports? OFX exports?) and uploads the necessary info to HMRC.

A small program that takes a well defined import and can talk the HMRC Making
Tax Difficult protocol might be the best way forwards; similar programs could
then also be written to talk to the tax people in other countries - without
cluttering up the core of Gnucash.

I am not sure, however, if this would be enough to keep HMRC happy - they seem
to want verification of the whole accounts program ... I am talking about a
standalone shim/add-on.

I know many companies that have their own accounts s/ware, written over many
years that does just what they need. MTD could cause huge problems if there is a
lot of effort in getting these certified or if the companies need to change to
use an off-the-shelf/bought-in package.

I don't think that HMRC have thought about it from anything other than their 
own perspective.

On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 08:03:45PM -0700, John Ralls wrote:

> GnuCash can generate TXF files that certain US and German tax prep software 
> can support. Alex Aycinena maintains the former and Christian Stimming the 
> latter, but Christian has had real life intervene and doesn’t at present have 
> time to contribute code to GnuCash so I suspect that the German version is 
> out of date.
> 
> If anyone else would like to contribute a similar report for their country 
> we’ll be happy to add it to the distribution, but one should bear in mind 
> that doing so is a commitment to maintain it with typically annual updates.
> 
> That applies to MTD as well: Of our current regular contributors only Mike 
> Evans is British; if he’s not motivated to develop the support someone else 
> from the UK will have to step up or it won’t happen.

I would be willing to help here.

However: I know nothing about Gnucash, neither as a developer nor a user. My own
small business accounts are essentially manual; if it were not for MTD I would
not see any benefit in changing this - so I want what will be least effort to
keep HMRC off my back.

-- 
Alain Williams
Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT 
Lecturer.
+44 (0) 787 668 0256  http://www.phcomp.co.uk/
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Re: For UK users: Will gnucash get ready for Making Tax, Digital ?

[John Ralls]

> On Jul 26, 2017, at 5:52 PM, Buddha Buck  wrote:
> 
> GnuCash does not currently (to my knowledge) support any
> jurisdiction-specify tax policy or reporting requirements. To do so for one
> would imply that it should do so for all, and that is a maintenance
> nightmare. As such, I think it more likely that someone would write a
> program that can take reports or data that GnuCash can already generate
> (CSV exports? OFX exports?) and uploads the necessary info to HMRC.

GnuCash can generate TXF files that certain US and German tax prep software can 
support. Alex Aycinena maintains the former and Christian Stimming the latter, 
but Christian has had real life intervene and doesn’t at present have time to 
contribute code to GnuCash so I suspect that the German version is out of date.

If anyone else would like to contribute a similar report for their country 
we’ll be happy to add it to the distribution, but one should bear in mind that 
doing so is a commitment to maintain it with typically annual updates.

That applies to MTD as well: Of our current regular contributors only Mike 
Evans is British; if he’s not motivated to develop the support someone else 
from the UK will have to step up or it won’t happen.

Regards,
John Ralls

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Re: For UK users: Will gnucash get ready for Making Tax, Digital ?

[Buddha Buck]

On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 6:53 PM  wrote:

>
>The need for a secret code to identify approved software was mentioned.
>Secret or not, why is it against OpenSource ideals when HMRC wants to
>assure that only software with the right capabilities can be used?
>

One of the ideals of FOSS is that anyone should have the ability to examine
and modify FOSS software to meet their own needs.

This means that it is impossible within the FOSS ideals to prevent a user
from making changes to software they receive, and it is difficult, if not
impossible, to embed a "secret" into the software.

If the AuthID/API key is used to identify the company/user using the MTD
API, then there isn't a problem; it's basically an installation-specific
password and will be different for each taxpayer.

The problem comes when HMRC wants to use a secret key to identify the
software using their API, and expects software vendors to apply for the API
key, distribute that API key to all their endusers, and expect the keys to
be secret. When anyone can download GnuCash from GitHub and build it from
source themselves, keeping that key secret just isn't possible in practice.

Software is constantly being updated and modified -- both FOSS and
commercial -- so realistically the best that HMRC can do is to certify
specific versions and distributions of any software program. It may be the
case that someone is willing to get a particular version of GnuCash
certified, but they won't be able to do it in a way that would allow a
secret key to remain secret. What they can do is say "The version of
GnuCash distributed on this site, with MD5 hash x is certified by
HMRC", and that certification won't hold for any other version.

Personally, I think relying on certification and secret keys to discourage
malfeasors is a bad idea. If the protocol allows people to do bad things,
then the bad guys will reverse-engineer the protocol, wiretap the
connections between their "legit" copies of Quicken or whatever to capture
the secret key, and Bob's your uncle.

Rather, as with anything, the onus is on the registered taxpayer to send
good information. The HMRC servers and protocols should be robust to
attack, and software which implements the protocol shouldn't be required to
identify itself except in an advisory capacity.

In which case, GnuCash, if it should choose to support it, could implement
the protocol, but explicitly make no warrantees about being "certified" or
suitable for purpose. Since already GnuCash does not warrant itself as
being correct for tax purposes in any jurisdiction (after all, anyone can
use it incorrectly), it wouldn't be a change of policy.

GnuCash does not currently (to my knowledge) support any
jurisdiction-specify tax policy or reporting requirements. To do so for one
would imply that it should do so for all, and that is a maintenance
nightmare. As such, I think it more likely that someone would write a
program that can take reports or data that GnuCash can already generate
(CSV exports? OFX exports?) and uploads the necessary info to HMRC.
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For UK users: Will gnucash get ready for Making Tax, Digital ?

[Mike . Minh]

   [If you don't mind me saying this: I haven't seen mailman lists for
   quite some years and I was a little surprised to see they still exist.
   I could not find any way how to add another comment to a given thread,
   despite having started the thread myself.  This contribution may well
   appear as a new thread]


   I'm glad to see that I sucessfully triggered a discussion about MTD.

   Whilst it may take  longer than anticipated to see MTD in full swing,
   one thing is clear, it will come.
   It's a Government project, UK GOV is not exactly famous for meeting
   deadlines (or budgets).

   HMRC's plans were already delayed twice very substantially, the Finance
   Bill this year was amended so heavily in the last minute, hardly any of
   the MTD aims were left. All this down to the dreadful Brexit
   referendum, followed closely by a General Election.

   May I add to some of the points mentioned:

   The VAT treshold (£85K turnover pa) is not a realiable indicator for
   who might be affected or not. You can for instance voluntarily register
   for VAT (my company did, and the reason has little to do with money,
   but with getting access to clients who would not deal with a
   non-registered biz)

   This is also not just about submitting VAT returns electronically.
   There will eventially be a need to keep electronic records on
   transaction basis, for the smaller businesses maybe not initially, but
   it will become a requirement eventually.

   Exceptions named by HMRC were notably religious communities whose
   beliefs don't allow to use electronic communication. No joke. They have
   thought of everything, right?

   Any yes, nobody has any specs yet. No reason to put the head into the
   sand. Sage, Quickbooks or XERO, nobody knows. At any rate, the earlier
   the gnucash dev community starts preparing for MTD, the better.

   The need for a secret code to identify approved software was mentioned.
   Secret or not, why is it against OpenSource ideals when HMRC wants to
   assure that only software with the right capabilities can be used?

   Some more links:

   [1]http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20161207201022/https://www
   .gov.uk/government/publications/making-tax-digital

   [2]https://www.gov.uk/government/news/next-steps-on-the-finance-bill-an
   d-making-tax-digital (only published on 13 July 2017)

References

   1. 
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20161207201022/https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/making-tax-digital
   2. 
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/next-steps-on-the-finance-bill-and-making-tax-digital
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Re: For UK users: Will gnucash get ready for Making Tax Digital ?

[Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd)]

On 25 July 2017 at 17:54, David Goodenough <
david.goodeno...@linkchoose.co.uk> wrote:

>
> There is a problem.  They want to assign a secret ID to each piece of
> software
> and so if you say it is open source they then refuse to allocate an ID as
> it
> will not be secret.  I have raised this with the cabinet office digital
> dept,
> and they acknowledge that this effectively bans open source which is
> against
> official government policy.  They are trying to get this changed.
>
> David
>

I must admit I can't quite think how, but I'm sure some cryptology expert
could find a solution. Although I don't do it now, I was a regular
developer of the sagemath open-source maths program, started by Prof.
William Stein at the University of Washington.

http://www.sagemath.org/

Prof Stein is an expert in number theory, and many of the users of that
package are too. I will drop a few of them an email, and see if any of them
can come up with a solution.

Dave
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Re: For UK users: Will gnucash get ready for Making Tax Digital ?

[Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd)]

On 25 July 2017 at 15:21, John Ralls  wrote:

>
>
>
> > https://hmrcdigital.blog.gov.uk/2016/07/14/talking-openly-at
> -open-source-16/
>
> That talk is about how much HMRC enjoys using software that they don’t
> have to pay for and how they’ve published some of their web code on GitHub.
> It doesn’t say anything about them accepting FOSS programs into MTD.
>
>
>
> > On Jul 25, 2017, at 1:43 AM, Mike Evans  wrote:
> > For those interested in developing.
> >
> > https://developer.service.hmrc.gov.uk/api-documentation <
> https://developer.service.hmrc.gov.uk/api-documentation>
>
>
> Which has no information on MTD. All of the APIs documented there are for
> getting information *from* HMRC, not sending them information.
>
> It *does* have information about their authentication system, which uses
> the fairly standard “server key” or OAuth key. These keys are per-program
> and completely preclude open-source software because there is no way for an
> open-source project to distribute them without compromising them.
>
> There’s another problem with “approving” an open-source program: What are
> you approving and how does an instance prove that it is the approved code,
> nothing more and nothing less?
>
> Regards,
> John Ralls
>


OK, a better link - a guide for software developers

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/basic-guide-for-
software-developers

Reading one of the links

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/
attachment_data/file/382943/sd-inductionpack.pdf

it appears that HMRC  provide technical support, and both online and
offline validation servers.

It would not go GnuCash any harm to be listed as supported software on a
government website of the worlds 5th or 6th largest economy. That would
give the "commercial" software companies something they would not expect.

If you wanted John, I would not mind phoning and asking whether support
would be provided to open-source software, and if there are any fees for
submitting software for validation. But as one of the lead developers, if
you feel it is not something that would or could be developed, it would be
pointless me wasting my time.

Dave
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Re: For UK users: Will gnucash get ready for Making Tax Digital ?

[John Ralls]

> On Jul 25, 2017, at 1:40 AM, Mike Evans  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 24 Jul 2017 21:39:43 -0700
> John Ralls  wrote:
> 
>>> On Jul 24, 2017, at 4:01 PM, mike.m...@gmx.net wrote:
>>> 
>>>  In about a year's time the UK taxman (HMRC) will only allow approved
>>>  accounting software to transmit the transctions required by law to
>>>  HMRC.
>>>  The project is known as Making Tax Digital or  MTD
>>>  No exact details or requirements to softwaremakers have been published,
>>>  but will gnucash commit to MTD?
>>>  If not, gnucash cannot be used anymore by any UK users.
>>> 
>>>  Link: 
>>> https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/making-tax-digital/overview-of-making-tax-digital
>>>   
>> 
>> It seems unlikely the we’ll have either the resources (as in developer time) 
>> or information from HMRC to implement this. If HMRC actually requires that 
>> account software be submitted to them for evaluation and approval  it also 
>> seems unlikely that they’d approve any FOSS program. 
>> 
>> That aside the page you cite says April 2019 and only for businesses above 
>> the VAT threshold. It looks like HMRC intend that they’ll collect 
>> information on individual taxpayers by other means so that individuals will 
>> have no reporting requirements at all. Since GnuCash is aimed primarily at 
>> individuals and small businesses it seems that most of our UK users will 
>> still be able to use GnuCash.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> John Ralls
>> ___
> 
> Interestingly HMRC seem to be encouraging opens source
> 
> https://hmrcdigital.blog.gov.uk/2016/07/14/talking-openly-at-open-source-16/

That talk is about how much HMRC enjoys using software that they don’t have to 
pay for and how they’ve published some of their web code on GitHub. It doesn’t 
say anything about them accepting FOSS programs into MTD. 



> On Jul 25, 2017, at 1:43 AM, Mike Evans  wrote:
> For those interested in developing.
> 
> https://developer.service.hmrc.gov.uk/api-documentation 
> 


Which has no information on MTD. All of the APIs documented there are for 
getting information *from* HMRC, not sending them information.

It *does* have information about their authentication system, which uses the 
fairly standard “server key” or OAuth key. These keys are per-program and 
completely preclude open-source software because there is no way for an 
open-source project to distribute them without compromising them.

There’s another problem with “approving” an open-source program: What are you 
approving and how does an instance prove that it is the approved code, nothing 
more and nothing less?

Regards,
John Ralls

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Re: For UK users: Will gnucash get ready for Making Tax Digital ?

[Maf. King]

On Tuesday, 25 July 2017 13:43:05 BST Christopher Lam wrote:
> I'd be quite keen to know processes for submitting VAT returns. I've never
> registered for VAT while I was UK resident but I'm submitting Australian
> GST statements quarterly.
> I'm enjoying learning scheme and I feel I will be able to generate a
> workable GST/VAT scheme report within weeks.
> 

Hi,

the system at the moment is to fill in an online form - usually quarterly, but 
there are some HMRC rules to allow annual returns for very small entities, but 
I don't know about them

. I generate the half-dozen or so relevant numbers from GC data using saved 
reports customised from the transaction report, and manually copy them across 
from GC to firefox.

The VAT report you propose wouldn't be far removed from the transaction 
report, I'd imagine.  I have several custom reports to generate the 
appropriate totals; could probably make a saved  mutli-column report to embed 
the transaction reports into to get everything with fewer mouse clicks. 

HTH,
Maf.

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Re: For UK users: Will gnucash get ready for Making Tax Digital ?

[Colin Law]

On 25 July 2017 at 11:43, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd)
 wrote:
> On 25 July 2017 at 05:39, John Ralls  wrote:
> ...
> If there's no desire/developer time to support this, then its not worth
> giving it any more consideration. But IF there was a willingness to develop
> it, then I think it would be unfounded to judge that FOSS program would not
> be eligible. There are government initiatives here to encourage the use of
> open source software in government
>
> https://governmenttechnology.blog.gov.uk/2016/12/15/next-steps-for-open-source-in-government/
>
> Certainly for annual accounts submission, the UK government lists the
> protocol to send the information. Some information here for example
>
> https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/government-gateway-submission-protocol-31
>
> As far as I could work out before, if the software used their protocol, it
> would work.

Possibly an approach would be an application using the python bindings
to extract data from the gnucash database and post it to the gateway.

Colin
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Re: For UK users: Will gnucash get ready for Making Tax Digital ?

[Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd)]

On 25 July 2017 at 05:39, John Ralls  wrote:

>
>
> > On Jul 24, 2017, at 4:01 PM, mike.m...@gmx.net wrote:
> >
> >   In about a year's time the UK taxman (HMRC) will only allow approved
> >   accounting software to transmit the transctions required by law to
> >   HMRC.
> >   The project is known as Making Tax Digital or  MTD
> >   No exact details or requirements to softwaremakers have been published,
> >   but will gnucash commit to MTD?
> >   If not, gnucash cannot be used anymore by any UK users.
> >
> >   Link: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/making-tax-
> digital/overview-of-making-tax-digital
>
> It seems unlikely the we’ll have either the resources (as in developer
> time) or information from HMRC to implement this. If HMRC actually requires
> that account software be submitted to them for evaluation and approval  it
> also seems unlikely that they’d approve any FOSS program.
>
> That aside the page you cite says April 2019 and only for businesses above
> the VAT threshold. It looks like HMRC intend that they’ll collect
> information on individual taxpayers by other means so that individuals will
> have no reporting requirements at all. Since GnuCash is aimed primarily at
> individuals and small businesses it seems that most of our UK users will
> still be able to use GnuCash.
>
> Regards,
> John Ralls
>
> Many small businesses, even as small as one person, will be above the VAT
threshold, which is a turnover of £85,000/year (around USD $110,000/year).

Even businesses below that threshold, may well chose to register for VAT.
If a UK company sells a lot of goods outside the European Union, then it
makes sense, as the business can recover the cost of the VAT on items
purchased, but does not need to charge VAT on non-EU sales. If one sells
mainly to individuals in the EU, it would probably not make sense to
register for VAT unless one has to.

That said, GnuCash can't submit the RTI submissions, but my accountant does
that for me, so the fact GnuCash can't do everything a UK business needs,
does not mean that it will not be able to use by UK businesses. HOWEVER,
clearly being able to do more would make it more useful.

If there's no desire/developer time to support this, then its not worth
giving it any more consideration. But IF there was a willingness to develop
it, then I think it would be unfounded to judge that FOSS program would not
be eligible. There are government initiatives here to encourage the use of
open source software in government

https://governmenttechnology.blog.gov.uk/2016/12/15/next-steps-for-open-source-in-government/

Certainly for annual accounts submission, the UK government lists the
protocol to send the information. Some information here for example

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/government-gateway-submission-protocol-31

As far as I could work out before, if the software used their protocol, it
would work.

Dave
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Re: For UK users: Will gnucash get ready for Making Tax Digital ?

[Fred Bone]

On 25 July 2017 at 1:01, mike.m...@gmx.net said:

>In about a year's time the UK taxman (HMRC) will only allow approved
>accounting software to transmit the transctions required by law to
>HMRC. The project is known as Making Tax Digital or  MTD No exact
>details or requirements to softwaremakers have been published, but will
>gnucash commit to MTD? 

It is, surely, obvious that no-one can commit to making changes that are 
as yet unspecified.


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Re: For UK users: Will gnucash get ready for Making Tax Digital ?

[Mike Evans]

On Mon, 24 Jul 2017 21:39:43 -0700
John Ralls  wrote:

> > On Jul 24, 2017, at 4:01 PM, mike.m...@gmx.net wrote:
> > 
> >   In about a year's time the UK taxman (HMRC) will only allow approved
> >   accounting software to transmit the transctions required by law to
> >   HMRC.
> >   The project is known as Making Tax Digital or  MTD
> >   No exact details or requirements to softwaremakers have been published,
> >   but will gnucash commit to MTD?
> >   If not, gnucash cannot be used anymore by any UK users.
> > 
> >   Link: 
> > https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/making-tax-digital/overview-of-making-tax-digital
> >   
> 
> It seems unlikely the we’ll have either the resources (as in developer time) 
> or information from HMRC to implement this. If HMRC actually requires that 
> account software be submitted to them for evaluation and approval  it also 
> seems unlikely that they’d approve any FOSS program. 
> 
> That aside the page you cite says April 2019 and only for businesses above 
> the VAT threshold. It looks like HMRC intend that they’ll collect information 
> on individual taxpayers by other means so that individuals will have no 
> reporting requirements at all. Since GnuCash is aimed primarily at 
> individuals and small businesses it seems that most of our UK users will 
> still be able to use GnuCash.
> 

For those interested in developing.

https://developer.service.hmrc.gov.uk/api-documentation

Mike E
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Re: For UK users: Will gnucash get ready for Making Tax Digital ?

[Mike Evans]

On Mon, 24 Jul 2017 21:39:43 -0700
John Ralls  wrote:

> > On Jul 24, 2017, at 4:01 PM, mike.m...@gmx.net wrote:
> > 
> >   In about a year's time the UK taxman (HMRC) will only allow approved
> >   accounting software to transmit the transctions required by law to
> >   HMRC.
> >   The project is known as Making Tax Digital or  MTD
> >   No exact details or requirements to softwaremakers have been published,
> >   but will gnucash commit to MTD?
> >   If not, gnucash cannot be used anymore by any UK users.
> > 
> >   Link: 
> > https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/making-tax-digital/overview-of-making-tax-digital
> >   
> 
> It seems unlikely the we’ll have either the resources (as in developer time) 
> or information from HMRC to implement this. If HMRC actually requires that 
> account software be submitted to them for evaluation and approval  it also 
> seems unlikely that they’d approve any FOSS program. 
> 
> That aside the page you cite says April 2019 and only for businesses above 
> the VAT threshold. It looks like HMRC intend that they’ll collect information 
> on individual taxpayers by other means so that individuals will have no 
> reporting requirements at all. Since GnuCash is aimed primarily at 
> individuals and small businesses it seems that most of our UK users will 
> still be able to use GnuCash.
> 
> Regards,
> John Ralls
> ___

Interestingly HMRC seem to be encouraging opens source

https://hmrcdigital.blog.gov.uk/2016/07/14/talking-openly-at-open-source-16/

And according to 
https://www.ftadviser.com/regulation/2017/01/31/hmrc-reveals-who-won-t-have-to-do-digital-tax-returns/

"HMRC has clarified that all self-employed businesses and landlords with a 
turnover of less than £10,000 a year will not have to keep their records 
digitally or make quarterly updates".  Which includes me.

Mike E

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For UK users: Will gnucash get ready for Making Tax Digital ?

[Mike . Minh]

   In about a year's time the UK taxman (HMRC) will only allow approved
   accounting software to transmit the transctions required by law to
   HMRC.
   The project is known as Making Tax Digital or  MTD
   No exact details or requirements to softwaremakers have been published,
   but will gnucash commit to MTD?
   If not, gnucash cannot be used anymore by any UK users.

   Link: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/making-tax-digital/ove
   rview-of-making-tax-digital
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