Re: [Gossip] Some Messages not archived to wedi-transactions
On January 7, 2003 at 15:42, William J. Kammerer wrote: The listserver is managed by an unrelated company. They would refuse to look into the problem, as I have already asked them why messages arrive so late at my mail server (i.e., two day delays sometimes) - and they say it is my problem (at my ISP)! At least in the case of describing my problems, I can show them my headers and tell them when my mail server received the messages. Some service. You may want to considering hosting the list yourself or find a better provider. I think they are wrong about it being your ISP. The sample header your provided shows received header dates of 4 Jan 2003, but the Date: field having a 2 Jan date. Since the message is what the listserv creates, the received headers of when the message was sent by the author to the listserv are not present. From what I see of the header, I fail to see how the list service provider can conclude it is your ISP's problem. Have you polled other list subscribers about times they received the message? But I am fairly certain that I have received all messages posted to the listserve in question between 12-30 and today. The messages I described awhile back on Gossip were received by me, but were not archived by Mail Archive. This is a common occurrence (on various of the WEDI listserve archives). I discover it quite frequently when attempting to refer someone to a posting via URL - only to find the posting is missing from the archive. I suppose it's possible that I receive all messages (even if some are delayed), while Mail Archive does not. Well w/o decent cooperation from your list hosting provider, it may never be known. However, we can make reasonable speculations on what it may be. First, it appears the missing messages occured when there was large delays in the listserv sending out messages. If you have no other cases when messages are lost, then it provides more weight that it is a listserve problem. Second, no other reports of select missing messages for other mail-archive.com archives have been reported for the time period in question. If mail-archive was somehow involved, then it would seems other archives would have the same problem. If no one else reports a similiar problem to what you have, it again puts more weight that it is a listserve problem. If it really important to have the messages archived, have a look at http://www.mail-archive.com/faq.html#import. You could resend the messages you got back to mail-archive.com as described in the FAQ in order to get them to show up in the archive. --ewh P.S. BTW, the Lyris listserv practice of changing the message-id violates RFC 2822. ___ Gossip mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://jab.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gossip
Re: [Gossip] Some Messages not archived to wedi-transactions
I never mentioned particular Message-IDs for the five messages I said were missing, though one did appear in the full set of headers that I showed you: Message-ID: LYRIS-14922627-168882-2003.01.02-15.00.40--wkammerer#novannet.com@lists .wedi.org If you searched on this Message-ID in your logs, I would not have expected you to find a match because the Message-ID is specific to the recipient. The header I showed are specific to me as recipient, and the headers in the messages sent to archive@mail-archive.com would look somewhat different as the Lyris listserver assigns unique Message-IDs for every recipient. Instead, do you have a way of searching the logs by subject, author and or date? William J. Kammerer Novannet, LLC. Columbus, US-OH 43221-3859 +1 (614) 487-0320 - Original Message - From: Jeff Breidenbach [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: William J. Kammerer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 07 January, 2003 01:43 AM Subject: Re: [Gossip] Some Messages not archived to wedi-transactions I zgrepped through the logs on Mail-Archive's primary and secondary mail exchangers. Neither one received an email with the message ID you mention. At this point, I (well, not I, but you know what I mean) would start checking logs on the originating mail transfer agent to see what it thought about delivering the message. Not sure what else to suggest, and I'm not aware of any problems on mail-archive's side for receiving messages. We got about 10,000 yesterday without error, and Sundays are the slowest day of the week. Some large (100KB or something) wedi* messages were in fact trashed due to size limits, but nothing in wedi-transactions. If you do end up getting access to the originating MTA logs and find something interesting, let me know. -Jeff Since the message has not appeared in the Mail Archives at http://www.mail-archive.com/wedi-transactions@lists.wedi.org/, I would assume either 1) Mail Archive never received a copy itself (not implausible considering it took 32 hours to get to me!), or 2) Mail Archive did not archive such a late-arriving message because it was confused. Message-ID: LYRIS-14922627-168882-2003.01.02-15.00.40--wkammerer#novannet.com@lists .wedi.org ___ Gossip mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://jab.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gossip
Re: [Gossip] Some Messages not archived to wedi-transactions
On January 7, 2003 at 10:46, William J. Kammerer wrote: If you searched on this Message-ID in your logs, I would not have expected you to find a match because the Message-ID is specific to the recipient. The header I showed are specific to me as recipient, and the headers in the messages sent to archive@mail-archive.com would look somewhat different as the Lyris listserver assigns unique Message-IDs for every recipient. IMHO, a questionable practice since it screws up references (for discussion threads) and makes tracking delivery errors harder (like in this case). Looking at the header you did provide: LYRIS-14922627-168882-2003.01.02-15.00.40--wkammerer#[EMAIL PROTECTED] it could be implied that the ID for other users would be: LYRIS-14922627-168882-2003.01.02-15.00.40--[useraddress]@lists.wedi.org where [useraddress] is the subscriber's address with @ replaced with a #. Therefore, I would guess the Message-ID for archive@mail-archive.com would be: LYRIS-14922627-168882-2003.01.02-15.00.40--archive#[EMAIL PROTECTED] Of course, this is just guessing. Since a timestamp is part of the ID, it could also vary if it is based on when the message sent to the receipient. Therefore, one may have to grep for something like (using regex notation): LYRIS-14922627-168882-2003\.01\.02.*--archive#mail-archive\.com@lists\.wedi\.org Assuming the day part is the same and only the time part could vary. To be more general: LYRIS-14922627-168882-.*--archive#mail-archive\.com@lists\.wedi\.org If the LYRIS-14922627-168882 is sufficiently random, the above should be sufficient in searching for the message. The archive#mail-archive\.com could probably be dropped from the expression to be extra forgiving and still avoid potential false positives. BTW, some list management software may not do auto-retries on a failed mail delivery. For example, for one list, if unable to deliver a message, the list software sends a status message to the receipient of the problem. If repeated tries of sending the status message fail, the address is auto-unsubscribed. If successful, the status message contains instructions for the receipient on how to retrieve the past undeliverable messages. Since mail-archive.com is all automated, such manual retrieval methods would not be supported. It seems that it would be more effective for you to check out your listserver's delivery logs to track down the problem. If such logs do not exist, you may want to enable such a feature, if available, to avoiding burdening mail-archive, and others, when troubleshooting errors when it is not even clear if mail delivery to mail-archive actually occurred for the messages in question. --ewh ___ Gossip mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://jab.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gossip
Re: [Gossip] Some Messages not archived to wedi-transactions
The listserver is managed by an unrelated company. They would refuse to look into the problem, as I have already asked them why messages arrive so late at my mail server (i.e., two day delays sometimes) - and they say it is my problem (at my ISP)! At least in the case of describing my problems, I can show them my headers and tell them when my mail server received the messages. In the case of Mail Archive, I have no headers to show!! But I am fairly certain that I have received all messages posted to the listserve in question between 12-30 and today. The messages I described awhile back on Gossip were received by me, but were not archived by Mail Archive. This is a common occurrence (on various of the WEDI listserve archives). I discover it quite frequently when attempting to refer someone to a posting via URL - only to find the posting is missing from the archive. I suppose it's possible that I receive all messages (even if some are delayed), while Mail Archive does not. William J. Kammerer Novannet, LLC. Columbus, US-OH 43221-3859 +1 (614) 487-0320 - Original Message - From: Earl Hood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 07 January, 2003 02:58 PM Subject: Re: [Gossip] Some Messages not archived to wedi-transactions On January 7, 2003 at 10:46, William J. Kammerer wrote: If you searched on this Message-ID in your logs, I would not have expected you to find a match because the Message-ID is specific to the recipient. The header I showed are specific to me as recipient, and the headers in the messages sent to archive@mail-archive.com would look somewhat different as the Lyris listserver assigns unique Message-IDs for every recipient. IMHO, a questionable practice since it screws up references (for discussion threads) and makes tracking delivery errors harder (like in this case). Looking at the header you did provide: LYRIS-14922627-168882-2003.01.02-15.00.40--wkammerer#novannet.com@lists .wedi.org it could be implied that the ID for other users would be: LYRIS-14922627-168882-2003.01.02-15.00.40--[useraddress]@lists.wedi.org where [useraddress] is the subscriber's address with @ replaced with a #. Therefore, I would guess the Message-ID for archive@mail-archive.com would be: LYRIS-14922627-168882-2003.01.02-15.00.40--archive#mail-archive.com@lis ts.wedi.org Of course, this is just guessing. Since a timestamp is part of the ID, it could also vary if it is based on when the message sent to the receipient. Therefore, one may have to grep for something like (using regex notation): LYRIS-14922627-168882-2003\.01\.02.*--archive#mail-archive\.com@lists\. wedi\.org Assuming the day part is the same and only the time part could vary. To be more general: LYRIS-14922627-168882-.*--archive#mail-archive\.com@lists\.wedi\.org If the LYRIS-14922627-168882 is sufficiently random, the above should be sufficient in searching for the message. The archive#mail-archive\.com could probably be dropped from the expression to be extra forgiving and still avoid potential false positives. BTW, some list management software may not do auto-retries on a failed mail delivery. For example, for one list, if unable to deliver a message, the list software sends a status message to the receipient of the problem. If repeated tries of sending the status message fail, the address is auto-unsubscribed. If successful, the status message contains instructions for the receipient on how to retrieve the past undeliverable messages. Since mail-archive.com is all automated, such manual retrieval methods would not be supported. It seems that it would be more effective for you to check out your listserver's delivery logs to track down the problem. If such logs do not exist, you may want to enable such a feature, if available, to avoiding burdening mail-archive, and others, when troubleshooting errors when it is not even clear if mail delivery to mail-archive actually occurred for the messages in question. --ewh ___ Gossip mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://jab.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gossip
Re: [Gossip] Some Messages not archived to wedi-transactions
I zgrepped through the logs on Mail-Archive's primary and secondary mail exchangers. Neither one received an email with the message ID you mention. At this point, I (well, not I, but you know what I mean) would start checking logs on the originating mail transfer agent to see what it thought about delivering the message. Not sure what else to suggest, and I'm not aware of any problems on mail-archive's side for receiving messages. We got about 10,000 yesterday without error, and Sundays are the slowest day of the week. Some large (100KB or something) wedi* messages were in fact trashed due to size limits, but nothing in wedi-transactions. If you do end up getting access to the originating MTA logs and find something interesting, let me know. -Jeff Since the message has not appeared in the Mail Archives at http://www.mail-archive.com/wedi-transactions@lists.wedi.org/, I would assume either 1) Mail Archive never received a copy itself (not implausible considering it took 32 hours to get to me!), or 2) Mail Archive did not archive such a late-arriving message because it was confused. Message-ID: LYRIS-14922627-168882-2003.01.02-15.00.40--wkammerer#novannet.com@lists .wedi.org ___ Gossip mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://jab.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gossip
Re: [Gossip] Some Messages not archived to wedi-transactions
Earl: Thanks for the suggestion. But as I wrote, most - but not all - messages do get posted to the archive. Since X-No-Archive: yes would most likely be something provided by the Listserve administrator for every message, we should assume that this MIME header is not used at all, and is not the cause of the messages not being archived. In order to further illuminate the problem, I have included one of the message's headers below. The message was posted my me on Thu, 2 Jan 2003 15:00:56 -0500. I have every reason to believe it was received by the listserver immediately, and successfully distributed to many subscribers within a short period of time - I know this because I often get responses from correspondents which include the text of my message. But in this case, you can see that I did not receive my copy of the message from the listserver till 4 Jan 2003 03:16:24 - - i.e., 01-03 at 10:16 PM ET, nearly 32 hours later!! And yes, the clock is correct in the Date: message; as you can see, it's a message sent by me! Since the message has not appeared in the Mail Archives at http://www.mail-archive.com/wedi-transactions@lists.wedi.org/, I would assume either 1) Mail Archive never received a copy itself (not implausible considering it took 32 hours to get to me!), or 2) Mail Archive did not archive such a late-arriving message because it was confused. Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: (qmail 2070 invoked from network); 4 Jan 2003 03:16:24 - Received: from unknown (HELO 63.251.80.233) ([63.251.80.233]) (envelope-sender [EMAIL PROTECTED]) by smtp-1-1d.secureserver.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 4 Jan 2003 03:16:24 - Message-ID: LYRIS-14922627-168882-2003.01.02-15.00.40--wkammerer#novannet.com@lists .wedi.org From: William J. Kammerer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WEDI SNIP Transactions Workgroup List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Separators Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 15:00:56 -0500 Organization: Novannet, LLC. Columbus, US-OH MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 List-Unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WEDI SNIP Transactions Workgroup List [EMAIL PROTECTED] William J. Kammerer Novannet, LLC. Columbus, US-OH 43221-3859 +1 (614) 487-0320 - Original Message - From: Earl Hood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: William J. Kammerer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, 05 January, 2003 01:33 PM Subject: Re: [Gossip] Some Messages not archived to wedi-transactions On January 5, 2003 at 11:55, William J. Kammerer wrote: Some Messages are not being archived to wedi-transactions at http://www.mail-archive.com/wedi-transactions@lists.wedi.org/. For example, I have received messages from the listserve which do not appear in the Mail-archive list: See http://www.mail-archive.com/faq.html#nomessage since it may be the answer to your question. --ewh ___ Gossip mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://jab.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gossip
Re: [Gossip] Some Messages not archived to wedi-transactions
On January 5, 2003 at 14:50, William J. Kammerer wrote: Earl: Thanks for the suggestion. But as I wrote, most - but not all - messages do get posted to the archive. Since X-No-Archive: yes would most likely be something provided by the Listserve administrator for every message, we should assume that this MIME header is not used at all, and is not the cause of the messages not being archived. The X-No-Archive: can be added by the Sender directly. Side Note: I think if Listserv is removing such headers before resending to the list, this is a serious bug with Listserv. In order to further illuminate the problem, I have included one of the message's headers below. The message was posted my me on Thu, 2 Jan 2003 15:00:56 -0500. I have every reason to believe it was received by the listserver immediately, and successfully distributed to many subscribers within a short period of time - I know this because I often get responses from correspondents which include the text of my message. But in this case, you can see that I did not receive my copy of the message from the listserver till 4 Jan 2003 03:16:24 - - i.e., 01-03 at 10:16 PM ET, nearly 32 hours later!! And yes, the clock is correct in the Date: message; as you can see, it's a message sent by me! I believe the date of the messages themselves do not matter. It may be due to delivery queuing by MTAs, either on your end or mail-archive.com end. Since some MTAs may be configured to queue for a few days, it may be possible the messages will show up in the next day or two. How does Listserv deal with failed deliveries? Since the message has not appeared in the Mail Archives at http://www.mail-archive.com/wedi-transactions@lists.wedi.org/, I would assume either 1) Mail Archive never received a copy itself (not implausible considering it took 32 hours to get to me!), or 2) Mail Archive did not archive such a late-arriving message because it was confused. 1) is possible and 2) is highly improbable. I'm not aware of any date ordering limitations in the mail-archive service. --ewh ___ Gossip mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://jab.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gossip
