Re: [lace] Mechlin lace

[Alex Stillwell]

Hi Nancy

An interesting thought. Sorry, I cannot help, the reference I came across was
only to Mechlin. Since the areas in which the other laces were made are in
close proximity to the Mechlin area it is very possible that they had the same
attitude. Fortunately there are more prickings available for Valenciennes and
Binche.

Merry Christmas

Alex

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Re: [lace] Mechlin lace

[N.A. Neff]

Hi Alex,

Were the Binche and Valenciennes prickings burnt also?

Nancy

On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 5:01 AM, Alex Stillwell 
wrote:

> Thank you Devon. Interesting  not only to see the lace but the pricking it
> was
> made on. There are very few Mechlin prickings available, most were burnt,
> when
> no longer used, so that they could not be copied.
>
> Blow the dust
>
> Alex
>
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>

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[lace] Mechlin lace

[Alex Stillwell]

Thank you Devon. Interesting  not only to see the lace but the pricking it was
made on. There are very few Mechlin prickings available, most were burnt, when
no longer used, so that they could not be copied.

Blow the dust

Alex

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RE: [lace] Mechlin and lace terminology

[Lorelei Halley]

Nancy

I only omitted Valenciennes because it produces another whole set of problems.
Mechlin/Flanders and Flemish/Brussels/Duchesse were enough, for the time
being. Let me recover my brain’s full function and I may revisit that aspect
of the problem.



And, among your other points, the problem of gradual changes from one type to
another, there is also the problem of wild, uncontained, irreverent creativity
which leads some lace designers to mix styles and techniques. It drives me
crazy.



Also, having just reviewed my own pinboards, with lots of examples, I now have
to admit that Mechlin ground was used in the mid 1700s in straight laces. I
base this on the ratio of ground to motif. If that ratio is 50/50 the lace is
from c. 1750, give or take a decade.



Also I just revised some of my pinboards, and separated out the Revival Era
and modern examples from the older ones. So the links I just posted don’t
work. But these should.



Part laces

https://www.pinterest.com/lynxlacelady/early-brussels-flemish-milanese/

https://www.pinterest.com/lynxlacelady/brussels-point-de-angleterre-brabant/

https://www.pinterest.com/lynxlacelady/duchesse-bobbin-lace/



Straight laces

https://www.pinterest.com/lynxlacelady/flanders-and-old-mechlin-antique/

https://www.pinterest.com/lynxlacelady/flanders-revival-era-and-modern/



From: Nancy Neff [mailto:nancy.a.n...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 7:42 PM
To: Lorelei Halley <lhal...@bytemeusa.com>
Cc: Arachne <lace@arachne.com>
Subject: Re: [lace] Mechlin and lace terminology



Lorelei,



It may be because I am both a collector and a lacemaker, but I don't see that
the two groups differ in what they want to use a name for--to be a short-hand
for some set of data.

...

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Re: [lace] Mechlin and lace terminology

[Nancy Neff]

Lorelei,

It may be because I am both a collector and a lacemaker, but I don't see
that the two groups differ in what they want to use a name for--to be a
short-hand for some set of data. The data that you as a lacemaker want to
know is the same as what I think collectors want to know--techniques, date,
location of manufacture, materials, and what characteristics enable one to
know date and origin. The fundamental question is which of these data do
you want to base a name on?  The more distinguishing features you use as
the basis for identifying a "kind of lace"--i.e., what one puts a unique
name to--the finer the categories are going to be and the more names will
be in play. Plus you have the difficulty of naming lace that is a
duplicate, made yesterday, of an antique piece, since I think both
lacemakers and collectors would consider the later copy to be different
from the original, however close to identical the two are.

My second observation is that the terminology problem really arises from
the fact that there are few discontinuities in the history of lace; for any
two related kinds of lace, one can usually find examples that are
intermediate between the two, or combine features from one with features
from the other. Any terminology is going to have problems with items that
fall on a spectrum or, worse, vary in multiple dimensions as lace does.

I suspect that my solution for my own use will be to base a set of names on
only the techniques used in the lace, and apply adjectives to those names
as needed to communicate the other metadata, especially date, because
usually all the rest are inferred from techniques and design. However, I
will withhold that suggestion as well as specific comment on your
classification until I have found my old notes and thought more about it
all again, since this revisits something I attempted to do about 10 years
ago (except to ask whether you meant to exclude Valenciennes or is that an
oversight?).

Many thanks to Devon, I think it was, for opening this particularly
interesting can of worms!

Nancy A. Neff
Connecticut, USA

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 7:05 PM, Lorelei Halley 
wrote:

> We have a constant problem with terminology, partly because we comprise 2
> different groups of people - collectors and lace makers. ... As
> I understand it, the collectors want a name they can use to reference a
> particular piece in a way that gives collectors an idea what to expect. I
> would like to hear from collectors on this issue, particularly what they
> consider the purpose of a name for a lace. ...
>
> The problem comes in when us lacemakers get into the conversation. My
> perspective is always that of a lace maker - what techniques are used in
> this piece, what do I have to know to reproduce this. I also would like
> terminology to refer to time, to distinguish antique from modern designs of
> that type, and to distinguish century or half century for antique laces...

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[lace] Mechlin and lace terminology

[Lorelei Halley]

We have a constant problem with terminology, partly because we comprise 2
different groups of people - collectors and lace makers. I am not willing to
say one is right and the other wrong. But our perspectives are different. As
I understand it, the collectors want a name they can use to reference a
particular piece in a way that gives collectors an idea what to expect. I
would like to hear from collectors on this issue, particularly what they
consider the purpose of a name for a lace. So "Mechlin" may refer to a
general geographical origin (just as "Honiton" may refer to any part lace
from Devon, which traveled to London on the Honiton coach)  Collectors also
seem to use the term "Flemish" to refer to the fragile laces from about
1650-1700 that were made, generally, in the region of Flanders.

 

The problem comes in when us lacemakers get into the conversation. My
perspective is always that of a lace maker - what techniques are used in
this piece, what do I have to know to reproduce this. I also would like
terminology to refer to time, to distinguish antique from modern designs of
that type, and to distinguish century or half century for antique laces. I
have worked out a set of terminology that I use, mostly to talk to myself. I
don't seriously expect everybody to follow my path (though I admit my ego
would find that delicious). 

 

I use Flemish/Early Brussels to describe part laces from 1650 to the early
1700s. I tack on the Early Brussels to indicate there should be no confusion
about whether Flemish = Flanders. (The latter name usually describes a
straight/continuous lace.)
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/v/t1.0-9/996823_49140
0894273766_1364151723_n.jpg?oh=2cff56b44e455c0a632fcee9eaf247e3

=53A3EEF6&__gda__=1404252930_8170d20c0b32e3d52a6b574a925e4929

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/15026355644/in/photostream/ 

http://lynxlace.com/images/lace719.jpg 

 

Look at the last row - http://lynxlace.com/bobbinlace1559to1700.html 

 

I use "Brussels" to refer to part laces of the 18th century which emanate
from the fashion center of that age. Laces from about 1750 are sometimes
called "point d'Angleterre". But I refuse to use that latter name. As far as
I can see its only use is to describe a particular style of Brussels lace.
Duchesse is the 19th c simplification of Brussels. I refuse to use "Brussels
Duchesse" to refer to Duchesse with needle inserts: I just call it "Duchesse
with point de gaze inserts". I do that because the motifs of Duchesse are
distinct and always basically the same. 

 

Here are links to my pinterest boards, which I have collected in an attempt
to pin images to these names.

https://www.pinterest.com/lynxlacelady/early-brussels-early-flemish-early-mi
lanese-part-l/ 

https://www.pinterest.com/lynxlacelady/brussels-point-de-angleterre-brabant/


https://www.pinterest.com/lynxlacelady/duchesse-bobbin-lace/ 

 

I use Flanders/Mechlin to describe straight/continuous laces from the region
near the town of Mechlin, dating from the first half of the 18th c, and
using any of the complex grounds, usually with gimp. And I use "Flanders" to
describe laces from the revival era, c 1900, using 5 hole ground. And I use
"Mechlin" to refer to revival era laces which have Mechlin ground.

https://www.pinterest.com/lynxlacelady/flanders-and-old-mechlin-bobbin-lace/


https://www.pinterest.com/lynxlacelady/mechlin/ 

 

I am trying to create names which include reference to the structure, the
time environment, and the style of a lace.

 

Sorry for the very lengthy report, but this can't really be explained in
just a few words. So I offer my method, for whatever it is worth.

 

Lorelei Halley

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RE: [lace] Mechlin

[Lorelei Halley]

That fits well. I agree.
Lorelei

-Original Message-
From: owner-l...@arachne.com [mailto:owner-l...@arachne.com] On Behalf Of Ilske 
Thomsen
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 11:07 AM
To: Arachne reply <lace@arachne.com>
Subject: Re: [lace] Mechlin

Mechlin, Valenciennes and Binche laces looked at the beginning of 18th century 
very similar but than they became each their typical look. Mechlin get an 
outline for example.with In the first half of 18th cent. the motives of the 
Mechlin lace were named flowers and worked in linen stitch and little 
decoration formed a sort of fantasy ground. In the second Half the fantasy 
grounds disappear and give place for the net grounds. And the motives were 
flowers, leafs partly with a whole in the middle. The outline give the motives 
exact shape. At the beginning o 19th cent. the net ground with square tallies 
is new.The flowers become bigger mostly roses.
That’s what I learned about Mechlin lace.

Ilske

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Re: [lace] Mechlin

[Ilske Thomsen]

Mechlin, Valenciennes and Binche laces looked at the beginning of 18th century 
very similar but than they became each their typical look. Mechlin get an 
outline for example.with In the first half of 18th cent. the motives of the 
Mechlin lace were named flowers and worked in linen stitch and little 
decoration formed a sort of fantasy ground. In the second Half the fantasy 
grounds disappear and give place for the net grounds. And the motives were 
flowers, leafs partly with a whole in the middle. The outline give the motives 
exact shape. At the beginning o 19th cent. the net ground with square tallies 
is new.The flowers become bigger mostly roses.
That’s what I learned about Mechlin lace.

Ilske

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[lace] Mechlin

[Alex Stillwell]

Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2017 21:02:39 -0600
From: "Lorelei Halley" 
Subject: [lace] RE: Mechlin

Alex

Of the books you list, I only have Levey and Palliser. Palliser was trying to
be scholarly

Hi Lorelei

As far as I have managed to understand it the ,Mechlin, made before about 1740
was the early type with an all-over design that rarely contained the ground we
now class as Mechlin, i.e. hexagons with vertical plaits of four half stitches
with two twists on the pairs on the diagonal sides. I have one piece
containing plaits of only three half stitches. From my reading it would appear
that it was after this, when the general design changed and more ground was
used, that the different names were used.

It is most confusing

Alex

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RE: [lace] Mechlin

[devonthein]

Nancy says, “This doesn't say what the
historical usage was, of course, but that is the current usage by dealers
for the antique laces.”
Trying to use updated terminology for lace is proving to be nothing short of a
metaphysical enterprise. For instance, at one point the museum referred to all
needle lace as needlepoint lace. But what with the popularity of yarn based
canvas work, this has been confusing, and now it has all been changed to
needle lace.
Santina Levey’s book from the 1980s which is still very revered made the
case that one should use English language words whenever possible when writing
in English. For instance, say Brussels bobbin lace instead of Point
d’Angleterre. When I was in college in the late 1970s using a simple English
word instead of a longer latin based word was said to be desirable by my
teachers, for instance, “think” rather than “conceptualize”. I have
been following that style my whole life, but now I think that it was a fad,
and possibly one that has passed. (Of course I used to think it was revealed
truth!)
So, is Santina’s initiative to use English words rather than Frenchified
still the latest trend, or has it passed?
I think that discovering what things used to be called at the time they were
made is very problematic since most lacemakers wouldn’t have that grounding
in lace linguistic history, and it is not, after all, 18th century people who
will be consulting our data base. In addition to that, photography made a big
difference in the pursuit of naming things.
I am coming along to the theory that the “Mechlin” piece from last week
more closely fits what we call Flanders lace because of the five hole ground.
So called “Flanders” lace seems to be a rather modern term, in fact sort
of a 20th century lace, as this one quite likely is. It is a term well known
to lacemakers, but is it a term known to lace collectors?
I have to say that formerly I was not that hung up on names, but rather on how
technique evolved as a continuum. But the challenge of trying to put a name on
things is different, and rather interesting.
Devon

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Re: [lace] Mechlin

[Nancy Neff]

It is interesting that the 17th C and early 18th C straight laces from the
Flanders region are today all referred to as Valenciennes or sometimes
Binche by lace dealers--e.g.,
http://www.mendes.co.uk/antique.bobbin.lace.p.two.html.  As soon as a gimp
appears, then that variant is called Mechlin. This doesn't say what the
historical usage was, of course, but that is the current usage by dealers
for the antique laces.

Nancy
Connecticut, USA

On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 3:52 AM, Alex Stillwell 
wrote:

> ... it would appear that the straight lace made in the Flanders
> region, Mechlin, Binche and Valenciennes etc. was all called Mechlin lace
> until about 1740, although there are some suggestion that it may have been
> as
> early as 1665, and it was only then that the different styles were defined.
>

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[lace] Mechlin

[Alex Stillwell]

Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 17:38:02 -0600
From: "Lorelei Halley" 
Subject: [lace] Flanders/Mechlin

Leonard and Devon

I have said these things before, but this seems a good time to repeat.

Hi Arachnids

>From  my reading of lace history books, References in History of lace -
Bury-Palliser, An illustrated guide to lace – Reigate, Lace – Toomer, Old
world lace – Blum, Lace – Ancient and modern – Beebe, The Lace and
Embroidery collector – Head, old handmade lace – Neville Jackson, Old
lace, a handbook for collectors – Jourdain and, of course, Santina Levey,s
book. From these it would appear that the straight lace made in the Flanders
region, Mechlin, Binche and Valenciennes etc. was all called Mechlin lace
until about 1740, although there are some suggestion that it may have been as
early as 1665, and it was only then that the different styles were defined.
Not being a historian I do not have the necessary skills to evaluate which
sources are the most reliable, perhaps some lace historians will come in and
clarify the position.

looking forward to hearing from you

Alex

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[lace] Mechlin

[Lorelei Halley]

Alex
Until today I didn't know you had a website/blog. That Honiton piece is
amazing, and the Bedfordshire one is beautiful too. Wow.
Lorelei

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[lace] Mechlin

[Alex Stillwell]

Hi Arachnids

Until now I have only made pieces from Rita’s syllabus so you can see better
pieces if you look there. When I have made some from antique prickings, which
seem to be unavailable, or designed or drafted myself from pieces of lace, I
will put them on my website, but do not hold your breath.

Blow the dust, let,s make lace

Alex

P.S. If I cannot put an apostrophe I will put a comma

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[lace] Mechlin

[Susan]

It seems there are some classes this summer at Kantcentrum.  Susan Hottle, 
Erie, PA USA

Sent from my iPad

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[lace] Mechlin

[Lorelei Halley]

Alex
As you work through Thienpondt's patterns, please post photos. We see very
little Mechlin made by living lacemakers. I think it will stimulate more
interest.
Lorelei

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[lace] Mechlin

[Alex Stillwell]

Dear Arachnids

My thanks to all who responded to my request for information about museums
etc. for studying Milanese lace.

Now I have a request for myself. After completing my floral book I started
studying Mechlin using Rita Thienpondts syllabus, with its well thought out
teaching progression and I am ready to attempt more. Would anyone with antique
Mechlin prickings share them with me please? I am willing to share English
prickings in return.

Blow the dust, lets make lace

Alex

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[lace] Mechlin books

[Lorelei Halley]

 Alex
Just tonight I have learned of a few more Mechlin books. They are posted
here:
  http://laceioli.ning.com/group/continental-straight-laces/page/good-books
The Mechlin section is near the bottom.

Lorelei

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Re: [lace] Mechlin

[Maria Greil]

Alex,
In addition to the Mechlin lace books you and Lorelei mention, there is
another one also by Rita Thienpondt. It was published in 1998 and is titled
'Mechelse kant, meer dan alleen ijsgrond...' (Mechlin lace, more than
iceground).
Regards,
Maria Greil
a lacemaker living in Spain


2014-06-03 11:27 GMT+02:00 Alex Stillwell alexstillw...@talktalk.net:

 Hi Arachnids

 In 1993 I purchased a copy of Syllabus Mechelse Kant 1 by Rita Thienpondt
 intending to try my hand. However several books got in the way and I’m
only
 now having the time to play. I also have Eisblumen by Ulrike Voelcker. Are
 there any more books, leaflets or articles on the techniques for making
 Mecklin lace? At the moment I’m having fun trying to get the ground even,
 but when I move on I will need to understand how the techniques work as  I
 have no patience following working diagrams. The more information I have
 the
 greater is my chance of success.

 Looking forward to your answers

 Alex

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[lace] Mechlin book

[Alex Stillwell]

H Arachnids

I have had several replies to my question about information on Mechlin lace
including the following -

In addition to the Mechlin lace books you and Lorelei mention, there is
another one also by Rita Thienpondt. It was published in 1998 and is titled
'Mechelse kant, meer dan alleen ijsgrond...' (Mechlin lace, more than
iceground).

Is this book still in print and if so where can I obtain a copy?

Happy lacemaking

Alex

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[lace] Mechlin

[Alex Stillwell]

Hi Arachnids

In 1993 I purchased a copy of Syllabus Mechelse Kant 1 by Rita Thienpondt
intending to try my hand. However several books got in the way and I’m only
now having the time to play. I also have Eisblumen by Ulrike Voelcker. Are
there any more books, leaflets or articles on the techniques for making
Mecklin lace? At the moment I’m having fun trying to get the ground even,
but when I move on I will need to understand how the techniques work as  I
have no patience following working diagrams. The more information I have the
greater is my chance of success.

Looking forward to your answers

Alex

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[lace] Mechlin

[Lorelei Halley]

Alex
Rita Thienpondt did write a 2nd set of patterns, called De sierlijkheid van de
Mechelse Kant, published 2002. It appears to be self published, but is the
same format as her first book.  Edgings, a few corners, several small motifs.

I have all 3 but doubt I will actually learn these. I'm more interested in
Binche and Paris. But I do like to be aware of all the forms.

Lorelei

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[lace] Mechlin

[Alex Stillwell]

Re: I never came across this echeveau thread, but I would try the 240 cotton ,
I consider it will be just the size, maybe a little thinner than asked.

Thank you Alix  Antoine. I will try the 240.  I have 'Syllabus Mechelse Kant
!', Rita Thienpondt. Are there any other books on Mechlin techniques and does
anyone know of a video showing the ground being made?

Happy lacemaking

Alex

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[lace] Mechlin lace and clovers

[Nathalie]

As the subject Mechlin lace came up in the list I would like to know
why there are often four leave clovers in the Mechlin lace designs. I
have some 18th century Mechlin lace from my family and therein I also
notice the clovers.

Thank you

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[lace] Mechlin and Bucks Point (was RE: Fw: 17th century Dutch Lace)

[Susan Lambiris]

In the collection of fabulous patterns made by the Misses Pope and Sivewright 
(published by Christine Springett) there's clear evidence that someone 
borrowed a bird from a piece of Mechlin lace to include in a beautiful Bucks 
point fan design. Since both Mechlin ground and point ground are worked with 
the same number of pairs at a pin and similar pin density, it's not too 
difficult to see how that could be done. The main difference between the two 
grounds is that point ground creates squat hexagonal cells while the cells in 
Mechlin are thinner than they are tall. Thus there might be more passives in a 
cloth stitch section of Mechlin than in a similar sized section of Bucks point 
worked to the same mesh density. Given the fineness of both laces I doubt you 
could see a difference without a magnifying glass. Certainly point ground is 
much faster and neater to work than Mechlin ground (and IMO the contrast 
between ground and design is more attractive when point ground is used).
  OTOH there are some definite differences between the way an irregular cloth 
stitch shape is worked in classic Bucks point and the way similar shapes are 
worked in the continental laces. This suggests that the patterns might have 
been copied, but that the techniques evolved independently.

Just my opinion, of course.

Sue in Raleigh

At 11:26  March 6 2006 -0800, Patricia Dowden wrote:
...At the spring of early laces, there was a lot of experimentation that 
eventually coalesced into the different types and styles we have come to know. 
 Val and Binche are almost inseparable at this point, freely using various 
grounds (snowflakes and flanders and paris and whatever else...many of the 
laces use simple plaits to carry the threads from one motif to the next.  The 
cloth stitch motifs of Binche, Val, Mechlin, and Flanders all carry the 
lineage of this lace.  It was all linen (no useable machined cotton until the 
19th century).

On a completely different subject, it has always seemed to me that point 
ground is a simplification of the earlier and more complex Mechlin.  Bucks and 
Mechlin patterns seem quite similar to me, especially the early Baroque 
patterns. 

Speculatively,

Patty

Susan Lambiris
Raleigh, NC
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [lace] Mechlin, where did the pins go?

[Eva Von Der Bey]

 On Mar 23, 2005, at 12:21, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Julie) wrote:
 
 The pins are missing!  There are no pins in the ground!  How do I 
  tension
  without pins to pull against?

 Tamara wrote:
 The pins are missing in the ground of both Mechlin and Valenciennes 
 (and I've heard of some Bucks workers who don't use them, either, 
 though I wouldn't dare to skip them, personally g) That's because, a 
 properly made plait (T, C, tension, T, C, tension) will stay in place 
 without support. CTCT one will too, but not as well. In fact, in 
 Flanders, you're advised to make a tiny plait of exiting pairs, to hold 
 everything together (I don't do it, because I then forget to un-plait; 
 so I just yank the pairs into submission instead. g)

Unlike us, our professional colleguaes of former times had to work for
speed. Every pin not to be put is a bit more money for life.

But even Valenciennes and Mechlin ground become much nicer, neater when
worked with pins. Source of this wisdom of mine is, like always, Ulrike
Loehr's classes. Her early Val and Mechlin patterns have been designed
without pins, but the newer are all with.

For Valenciennes, it's no problem working with pins, just place them below
the crossing of the two braids.
Mechlin with pins is something to drive one mad.
In a strange way, the pins are not placed in the row you think you are just
working...
Not afraid of complicated lace with many bobbins, Mechlin is the one I
cannot work without marking nearly every pin on my voodoo-board.

lucky not to make lace for living..


Eva from Haltern, Germany,
where spring has come and I can make lace at the veranda

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Re: [lace] Mechlin, where did the pins go?

[robinlace]

I've never tried Mechlin, but Skansk is another lace with pins only at the 
edges.  What I did through the ground was work to an edge and use that pin to 
maintain the worker's position while carefully tensioning each ground stitch 
along its path.  Even in Bucks, they traditionally didn't put support pins at 
the ground stitches, but used tensioning to get them into order.

In Skansk, I used support pins as needed where the ground threads entered a CTC 
motif, because the threads change directions when they do.  This allows you to 
tension within the CTC without distorting the edge.  However, this is a peasant 
lace, done with coarse threads, unlike Mechlin.  I don't know that you can get 
away with major tensioning (through a lot of stitches) with the finer threads.

Robin P.
Los Angeles, California, USA
(formerly  Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania)
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: [lace] Mechlin, where did the pins go?

[Laurie Hughes]

Julie,

I took Ulrike Voelker's (nee Loehr) (NOTE:  The new name has NO UMLAUT,
YAY!) class in Ithaca and love Mechlin.  I haven't done tons of it, but I
think I got the ground pretty well under my belt.

As usual, Tamara's Patented Thinking Woman's Lace Methods are right on
track.  On the practice piece, Ulrike had drawn the path of the ground, that
little hexagon shape that the stitch makes (Or maybe it was small
circles...but some type of guide), and it was nice to have it there for a
while so you could get the idea of how much to tension, etc.  Of course she
stopped drawing it in later pieces.  Darn.

I'm told that Mechlin developed when pins were EXTREMELY expensive,
therefore they depended on the scrunch-ability of the thread and the
automatic space made when a regular number of stitches or twist are made
instead of those spendy pins.

I think you will find that tensioning the threads without the help of the
pin AND after each stitch (a plait is a series of stitches, I tension after
every other T) will make your lace better for the rest of your life.  Just
imagine what you can do without pins!

As for the direction of working, I found it easier at first to go
horizontally row by row, then I knew all the stitches were there.  Once you
know what each stitch is supposed to look like, how big, how tight, how
loose, etc. then you won't need to stick to going horizontally.

An interesting note about Mechlin, Pam Nottingham who is on the Point Ground
Committee in OIDFA, told a class I was in once that although Mechlin was
supposed to have died out early in the 1800's, she found lace pieces in
England that were worked in Mechlin ground up til almost 1900.  It was a
small lace making family that were taught by family members.  Very
interesting to me, and mind stretching to people who think there are
absolute dates for everything.

If we get enough people making Mechlin, then maybe we can get Ulrike to
publish her flowers in ice ground book

Lace in Peace,
Laurie

In Massachusetts, where Spring won the battle today.  It was snowing when I
woke up and now it's raining.  Improvement is relative.

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Re: [lace] Mechlin, where did the pins go?

[Dmt11home]

In a message dated 3/24/2005 3:45:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] 
writes:

I was in  once that although Mechlin was
supposed to have died out early in the  1800's, she found lace pieces in
England that were worked in Mechlin ground  up til almost 1900.  It was a
small lace making family that were  taught by family members.  Very
interesting to me, and mind stretching  to people who think there are
absolute dates for  everything.
We have some English Mechlin at the MMA. I saw it when we were unpacking  the 
last of the boxes. It was very fine, brownish and somewhat brittle.  Later I 
called for a piece identified as English Mechlin (thinking it was that  piece) 
but it appeared to have a Point ground instead. Of course this raises an  
issue about whether it was merely misidentified in the original auction  
catalogue, or whether there may be inexactitude in terminology.
Devon

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[lace] Mechlin, where did the pins go?

[JSyzygy]

Hi Spiders

  My background is Torchon and Bucks Point and now I am trying to do the 
first exercise in the Mechlin book Rita Thienpondt's Syllabus Mechelse Kant 
I.  
Thank you for answering my questions about terminology last week; it was very 
helpful and motivating.
  I am not having any problems with the exercise, everything is going well,  
but I want to check that I am not missing anything obvious.
  The first exercise is just a long strip of (ice) ground (CTCTCTCTT)(that's 
two cloth-stitch-with-a-twist and an extra twist at the end).  It uses 50 
pairs.  Horizontally it is 9 plaits across, so 18 pairs (2 pairs per vertical 
line) and diagonally it is 20 pairs across *one pair per slantedt line).  So it 
is 
a narrow strip.
   The pins are missing!  There are no pins in the ground!  How do I tension 
without pins to pull against?
   In cloth stitch I might make many stitches before sticking in a pin, but 
once I put in the pin then I tension all the stitches since the last pin.  So 
the pins are not missing in cloth sttich in the sense that they are missing 
here.
   Here, the stitch is very heavy so it is impossible to tension after the 
stitch is done.  All tensioning must be done at the moment the stitch is made.  
It is impossible to alter the stitch afterwards.
  Think of lace ground, a  mesh, as a collection of little holes.
   Everything is fine at the edge pin where I start making ground but then I 
have a long journey (18 pairs, remember) before I reach the other edge pin.  
At first I tensioned too hard--the circles were small-- and when I got to the 
end of the journey my lace did not reach the edge pin.  However, this wasn't 
obvious until I had done several rows.  After several rows I could see the lace 
reaching up from the edge.  So then I had to make a really ugly row of great 
big circles in order to realign myslef with the edge pins.  Now I seem to have 
tensioned too loosely as my lace is overhanging the edge pins,  So I guess now 
I will hav to make some rows of really tiny circles in order to align myself 
again.
   You might think, well, why not just look at the ground as you make it and 
check that the holes are the right size (since the holes can only be corrected 
at the moment of making because stitches can't be tensioned afterwards)?  
However I can't actually see any holes while I am making the ground.  All I see 
is a tangled mess of thread.  At the edges I see some holes, but the middle is 
just hopeless.  It is not until a couple of rows later that the mess resolves 
itself into perfectly lovely (but mis-sized) circles.
   So does it sound as if everythng is going the way it should be going or am 
I missing something?  Do I still work done the diagonal, just as in Torchon 
and Bucks?  If I worked across instead of diagonally then there would be fewer 
stitches between pins. Should I be somehow be prodding the stiches with pins 
while I make the stitches?  Right now, I tension by pulling the bobbin pairs 
aparte (pulling the right pair to the right and the left pair to the left 
simultaneously) after the first cloth-stitch-with-a-twist and again after the 
second 
cloth-stitch-with-a-twist, but I don't do anything else while making the 
stitches.
  The Mechlin book has a bunch of pictues of lace with huge swathes of 
ground.  How do they make so much ground without any pins to tension against?  
   One thing about this exercise is that it made me realize how much I like 
pins.  I love pulling the threads tight against the pin.  Here are the threads, 
messy and formless right after making the stitch...I pull the threads ...they 
slide across the pin...voila! Nice clean straight thread lines forming a 
pretty stitch.  I like the way I always pull bobbins down and the pins change 
the 
direction of my force vector so that the force is applied at exactly the 
location and direction that is needed.  I provide raw brute force and the pin 
cleverly turns the power into something useful.   This is not interesting, it 
is 
rudimentary, but it touches on interesting subjects like levers and mechanics:  
the subjects of indirect manipulation of forces.  Manipulating forces is a key 
to civilization.  Archimedes was so impressed with levers that he said, Give 
me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I could move the world.so 
it is much more fun to have use pins to change vectors--subtle indirect 
manipulation--then to just position your hands so that the vector is in the 
right 
position to start with--boring direct manipulation.
  I like thinking of lace as the interaction between pins and thread.  Pins 
are all rigidity and threads are all malleability.  Take some malleabililty 
from the threads, so that you have beautiful interesting designs, and some 
rigidity from the pins, so that the lines of the design are crisp and elegant 
instead of loose and messy, and together you end up with lace.
  On the other hand, after all the thousands and thousands of pins in 

[lace] Mechlin, where did the pins go?

[Tamara P Duvall]

On Mar 23, 2005, at 12:21, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Julie) wrote:
   The pins are missing!  There are no pins in the ground!  How do I 
tension
without pins to pull against?
The pins are missing in the ground of both Mechlin and Valenciennes 
(and I've heard of some Bucks workers who don't use them, either, 
though I wouldn't dare to skip them, personally g) That's because, a 
properly made plait (T, C, tension, T, C, tension) will stay in place 
without support. CTCT one will too, but not as well. In fact, in 
Flanders, you're advised to make a tiny plait of exiting pairs, to hold 
everything together (I don't do it, because I then forget to un-plait; 
so I just yank the pairs into submission instead. g)

In cloth stitch I might make many stitches before sticking in a pin, 
but
once I put in the pin then I tension all the stitches since the last 
pin.
Don't let Michael Giusiana catch you at it g I was sick as a cat for 
most of his class but I still managed to learn one lesson: *tension 
each stitch as you make it*. That applies to cloth stitch motifs - no 
matter how many pairs in it - and to everything else as well.

It sounded like a confounded nuisance to me at the time, but I've 
blessed him for it many times since. I now tension even my footsides 
before putting in the pin, and my lace looks the better for it :) The 
biggest shortcut I ever take is: a) in plait: TCTC before tensioning 
(but the plait doesn't look quite as good) b) in cloth stitch: tension 
after 2-3 prs, not one (but then I have to tension one thread at a 
time, so it's six of one half a dozen of the other)

Here, the stitch is very heavy so it is impossible to tension after the
stitch is done.  All tensioning must be done at the moment the stitch 
is made.
If you're thinking of CTCTCTCT+T as *a* stitch to tension, then you're 
way too late tensioning. Breaking it into two: CTCT (tension) and CTCTT 
(tension) will work better. OK, I see you're doing that already. Break 
it down further then, and tension: CTC, tension; TC, tension; TC, 
tension. I'd leave the last T till the pairs are ready to meet for 
another plait sequence; you can then T them both at the same time.

Everything is fine at the edge pin where I start making ground but 
then I
have a long journey (18 pairs, remember) before I reach the other edge 
pin.
N.. Sorry about yelling :) Never *mind* edge pins; they're 
not there for tensioning purposes, they're just hitching post to rest 
at for the moment. Another lesson I learnt from Giusiana: tensioning 
against the edge pins at the footsides isn't worth *squat*, since the 
proper tension on a pair doesn't occur till the *next* pin (on the 
picot side, tension is immediate).

You might think, well, why not just look at the ground as you make it 
and
check that the holes are the right size (since the holes can only be 
corrected
at the moment of making because stitches can't be tensioned 
afterwards)?
However I can't actually see any holes while I am making the ground.  
All I see
is a tangled mess of thread.  At the edges I see some holes, but the 
middle is
just hopeless.  It is not until a couple of rows later that the mess 
resolves
itself into perfectly lovely (but mis-sized) circles.
That, I neither understand nor can help with, never having done any 
Mechlin myself. But I have substituted (pinless) Val crossings for 
(pinned) in some Beds/Cluny patterns with very happy - and much tidier 
- results. So I don't know where the tangled mess of thread is coming 
from. Perhaps you should not think of *holes* themselves, but the 
outlines of the holes

Do I still work done the diagonal, just as in Torchon and Bucks?
That, again, I can't help with. I'd go with whatever makes more 
sense/feels more comfortable/gives better results. Once you're into 
shapes (ie out of the sea of ground), you'll work in logical sections 
anyway - so much ground, then break for the motif, then maybe ground 
again. Like you did in your Chantilly.

If I worked across instead of diagonally then there would be fewer
stitches between pins.
Forget them pins, already :)
However... Milanese doesn't use pins within the braids, and, the sooner 
one learns how to manage strictly by tensioning in the air the 
better. But, people who can't manage, *do* put in pins to support bits 
they have problems with - as needed... Valencienne's ground doesn't use 
pins either, but, for pin-dependent beginners, some books put them 
in, in the first pattern or two... If you look at the old Freehand 
laces, they were pinless but at the sides; if you look at some of the 
reproductions (esp in the Christian IV book), pins are used for 
support. Perhaps you could put ground pins for yourself in Mechlin? 
Though, IMO, it's like adding extra wheels to a two-wheel bike; it only 
slows down your transition from a 3-wheel one; you get used to its 
security, and never want to let go.

Should I be somehow be prodding the stiches with pins while I make the 
stitches?
And risk 

Re: [lace] Mechlin terminology

[Brenda Paternoster]

Hello Julie
I don't have that book but I think I can answer some of your questions
   In Section 1, Thienpondt does not define the stitches.
 Linen stitch is a standard name, I assume it's cloth stitch CTC
 Half-stitch is a standard name, I assume it is CT
 Twisted stitch I assume is...is well, that's where I have a 
problem.
 I have no idea what twisted stitch is.  Thienpondt does define a 
complicated
stitch Plait of 4 bobbins(Ground stitch?) as CTCTCTCTT and the 
picture
looks like half-stitch-colored line with two twisted-stitch-colored 
lines attached
to it.  So maybe twisted stitch is CTCTCTT?  (It was good that 
Thienpondt was
explicit about the ground stitch.  I feel all revved up to start the 
first
exercise, which is just a bunch of ground stitches.)
You are right that Mechlin round is CTCTCTCTT.  The extra twist just 
separates each short length of plait.  This ground is only found in 
Mechlin and so is the means of identifying Mechlin from other Flemish 
laces.
   In Section 1 Thienpondt refers to a ring pair.  What is that?  I 
think
she doesn't mean the gimp.
A ring pair is found in Binche, Flanders, Mechlin etc, and again you 
are right in thinking it's not a gimp thread.  Look closely at the 
designs and you will see cloth stitch motifs and the mechlin ground.  
Surrounding the cloth stitch areas there will be one double stitch - 
CTCT - with an extra twist between it and the cloth stitch.  The 
position of the extra twist will vary depending on whether that double 
stitch is to the side, above, below or diagonal to the cloth stitch, 
but the overall effect is that a pair (not always the same two 
threads) goes all the way around the cloth stitch motif.
  In Section 2, Thienpondt says:  b Making an in- or output with a 
picot
(see techniques).
  Techniques are Section 1.  I looked there and saw on page 15 a 
detailed
thread diagram of a picot; it looked just like the picot I use in 
Bucks Point.
There were lots of twists, then an entanglement, then two twists 
afterward.
  I looked carefully at all the loops by the gimp in the photograph of 
the
worked exercise on the first page of Section 2, but none of these 
loops looked
like picots.  They all looked to me as if the pair had just been 
twisted twice
and a pin put under it.  So where are the picots that Thienpondt 
referred to?
Not sure what type of picot is used for mechlin - it may be the double 
picot as used in Bucks or it could be a twisted picot as in most 
Binche, which is just several twists on the pair and both threads are 
looped around a pin in the same way as the first part of a Bucks picot. 
 Personally I've found that that will work for left hand picots, but 
for right hand picots the threads need to be crossed several times 
instead of being twisted, though I believe that Flemish lacemakers do 
use the twisting method on both sides.

Brenda
http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/paternoster/
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[lace] Mechlin terminology

[JSyzygy]

Hi Spiders
  I just bought a How to Make Mechlin Book.  It is Rita Thienpondt's 
Syllabus Mechelse Kant I.  It looks like fun.  Right now it is fairly 
impenetrable, but I think I'll be fine once I assay a few exercises. 
  To make it more fun for me, could someone explain some of the terminology 
instead of leaving me to fend for myself? I know nothing about Mechlin; I know 
Bucks Point.

   In Section 1, Thienpondt does not define the stitches.
 Linen stitch is a standard name, I assume it's cloth stitch CTC
 Half-stitch is a standard name, I assume it is CT
 Twisted stitch I assume is...is well, that's where I have a problem. 
 I have no idea what twisted stitch is.  Thienpondt does define a complicated 
stitch Plait of 4 bobbins(Ground stitch?) as CTCTCTCTT and the picture 
looks like half-stitch-colored line with two twisted-stitch-colored lines 
attached 
to it.  So maybe twisted stitch is CTCTCTT?  (It was good that Thienpondt was 
explicit about the ground stitch.  I feel all revved up to start the first 
exercise, which is just a bunch of ground stitches.)

   In Section 1 Thienpondt refers to a ring pair.  What is that?  I think 
she doesn't mean the gimp.

  In Section 2, Thienpondt says:  b Making an in- or output with a picot 
(see techniques).
  Techniques are Section 1.  I looked there and saw on page 15 a detailed 
thread diagram of a picot; it looked just like the picot I use in Bucks Point.  
There were lots of twists, then an entanglement, then two twists afterward.
  I looked carefully at all the loops by the gimp in the photograph of the 
worked exercise on the first page of Section 2, but none of these loops looked 
like picots.  They all looked to me as if the pair had just been twisted twice 
and a pin put under it.  So where are the picots that Thienpondt referred to? 
Julie 
Baltimore MD

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[lace] Mechlin

[Lorelei Halley]

Hi everybody
Do any of you have samples of Mechlin lace that you have made?  If so, would
you be willing to share pictures?  My website identification page has no
photos of any Mechlin lace made by living lacemakers.  This leaves a hole
in the story.  The samples don't have to be complicated, perfectly made, or
complete projects.  Just learning samples would be fine.

If you have such laces and have a flatbed scanner you could create a clear
photo.  Please let me know.  It may be a few weeks until I actually get the
pictures up on the website.  I'll post a message when I do.
Lorelei Halley

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