Re: Keyboard shortcuts with Hebrew letters
On 12/27/06, Ilya Konstantinov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I also would like to solve this at the X level.
I think you could create a new XKB il mapping where holding Ctrl or Alt
is a modifier that activates the 1st shift group. It shouldn't be too hard.
It's funny how I never got to it.
Just for the record, I've tried today to define such an XKB keymap, without
sucess. I've tried both defining it in terms of compat mappings (but they
only allow you to map a key + a modifier to an action, not any key + a
modifier) and in terms of symbols mappings (by changing the mapping of,
say, LALT to map to actions[Group1] = { SetGroup(1), SetGroup(1) ]).
So far, it looks like this is a problem that have to be solved in each and
every X client (on the toolkit level, obviously).
Re: Keyboard shortcuts with Hebrew letters
On 30/12/06, Ilya Konstantinov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I also would like to solve this at the X level.
I think you could create a new XKB il mapping where holding Ctrl or Alt
is a modifier that activates the 1st shift group. It shouldn't be too hard.
It's funny how I never got to it.
Just for the record, I've tried today to define such an XKB keymap, without
sucess. I've tried both defining it in terms of compat mappings (but they
only allow you to map a key + a modifier to an action, not any key + a
modifier) and in terms of symbols mappings (by changing the mapping of,
say, LALT to map to actions[Group1] = { SetGroup(1), SetGroup(1) ]).
So far, it looks like this is a problem that have to be solved in each and
every X client (on the toolkit level, obviously).
Thanks for the effort. Do you have any links for information on how to
make such a keymap for KDE? I've been googling this, and I cannot find
anything relevant.
Dotan Cohen
http://dotancohen.com/howto/netscape_bat_email.php
http://what-is-what.com/what_is/open_office.html
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Re: Keyboard shortcuts with Hebrew letters
On 12/30/06, Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for the effort. Do you have any links for information on how to make such a keymap for KDE? I've been googling this, and I cannot find anything relevant. There's nothing KDE-specific about XKB keymaps. There are also no GUI tools to produce them. For information about the XKB layouts concepts and syntax (which is a pretty complicated subject), see Ivan Pascal's reference on the subject: http://pascal.tsu.ru/en/xkb/
Re: Keyboard shortcuts with Hebrew letters
On 30/12/06, Ilya Konstantinov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12/30/06, Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for the effort. Do you have any links for information on how to make such a keymap for KDE? I've been googling this, and I cannot find anything relevant. There's nothing KDE-specific about XKB keymaps. There are also no GUI tools to produce them. For information about the XKB layouts concepts and syntax (which is a pretty complicated subject), see Ivan Pascal's reference on the subject: http://pascal.tsu.ru/en/xkb/ Thanks for that. I'll spend some quality time with that site, and see what I come up with. Dotan Cohen http://lyricslist.com/lyrics/artist_albums/171/eagle-eye_cherry.php http://dagot.com = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Keyboard shortcuts with Hebrew letters
On 27/12/06, Amos Shapira [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 27/12/06, Ori Idan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This seems to me an X issue, however it is strange that on my system I can not reproduce this bug. I use debian unstable with x.org, with gnome 2.14.2 the bug does not appear nither in firefox nor openoffice. Did you try this with Firefox? I'm on similar system (testing (etch) instead of unstable, but otherwise identical) and it doesn't work for me with Firefox. To explain what I test: 1. Open gedit window (a classic GNOME/GTK application). 2. type some text in English. 3. mark and ctrl-c some text. 4. ctrl-v and you'll get the text. 5. switch to Hebrew keyboard 6. press ctrl-v and you'll still get another copy of the text ( i.e. paste will work) 7. switch to firefox (e.g. gmail message compose) 8. type ctrl-v (remember - still on Hebrew keyboard) - NO reaction. 9. switch to English keyboard 10. type ctrl-v - WILL get a copy of the text in firefox. Here is the Bugzilla entry for Firefox link: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=69230 please vote for it. --Amos That's exactly the reason that I want to solve this problem in X and not at the application level. And what happens when I install a new app? I must spend hours remaking my shortcuts? There is a lot of good info in that bug, I'll read it more though later. Thanks. Dotan Cohen http://essentialinux.com/linux-software.php http://what-is-what.com/what_is/love.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Keyboard shortcuts with Hebrew letters
On Monday 18 December 2006 19:51, Dotan Cohen wrote: I've STFW and cannot find how to do what I need. I want that CTRL-[HebrewLetter] give the same functionality that CTRL-[EnglishLetter] gives. For instance, CTRL-ב should be copy, because ב shares a key with C. I use the KDE desktop, ... As much as I will be flamed, I must note that MS products work this way. For instance, in Word on Windows CTRL-נ makes the text bold, because נ shares a key with B. Works fine for me everywhere except Firefox. I have no problem using: CTRL-ז CTRL-ס CTRL-ב CTRL-ה CTRL-א (gives me a new tab in Konqueror) CTRL-ש (Select All, works where it also works in English, such as in Konqueror and OOo) CTRL-נ (Bold) CTRL-ן (Italics) CTRL-ו (Underline) etc. etc. etc... I didn't test all of them but I would guess that all the Application Shortcuts defined in the Keyboard Shortcuts section of the KDE Control Center work with the il keyboard when Hebrew is active. I used CTRL-ז to the copy and paste the CTRL- above. They work in OOo and AbiWord too. But not in Firefox. I'm using KDE 3.5.5 from debian (amd64) testing. I never had to define them. I have only the Israel-il keyboard layout active and it is defined as: setxkbmap -model pc104 -layout us,il -variant ,lyx in KDE alone and I didn't touch the xorg.conf. It remains: Section InputDevice Identifier Generic Keyboard Driver kbd Option CoreKeyboard Option XkbRules xorg Option XkbModel pc104 Option XkbLayout us Yours is probably just a keyboard configuration problem. Thanks from the head. You are welcome, from the heart. Chaim Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Keyboard shortcuts with Hebrew letters
On 12/26/06, Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 26/12/06, Ori Idan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This seems to me an X issue, however it is strange that on my system I can not reproduce this bug. I use debian unstable with x.org, with gnome 2.14.2 the bug does not appear nither in firefox nor openoffice. Do you mean that on your system you can type Ctrl-ה and it pastes? Do you use KDE, Gnome, or something else? I'm also running debian unstable, xorg 7.1.0, gnome 2.14.3, openoffice 2.0.4. _XKB_RULES_NAMES(STRING) = xorg, pc104, us,il, ,lyx, grp:caps_toggle,grp:switch,grp_led:scroll When I press Ctrl+V in Hebrew layout: + xev shows Ctrl-V! + GTK: gedit pastes. + menu accelerators work, even without Alt! + KDE kate pastes - menu accelerators don't work, even with Alt. + openoffice pastes + menu accelerators seem to work too, even without Alt! ? Ctrl-q doesn't exit, although Ctrl-W does close. Go figure... - emacs-snapshot and emacs-snapshot-gtk both show Ctrl-ה. - gvim doesn't recognize it. - Naturally command mode doesn't work. - iceweasel (firefox :) doesn't paste. It appears that this is already partially fixed by the toolkits, most notably GTK. xev surprises me. Perhaps it was never updated for xkv and uses the old API? I also would like to solve this at the X level. This would be better of course. However note that keys without Ctrl or Alt (vi commands, menu and dialog accelerators in some cases) can only work with support from the application. That's why vi must have an internal keymap system (see :help keymap), which only affects insert mode and optionally colon commands (for things like search, defaulting to english at start of every colon command). Ideally, X would provide both the physical key and translated key and the application would choose according to context. -- Beni Cherniavsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] (I read email only on weekends)
Re: Keyboard shortcuts with Hebrew letters
On 12/27/06, Beni Cherniavsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It appears that this is already partially fixed by the toolkits, most notably GTK. As Havoc Pennington already noted in the Mozilla bug 69230, Gtk has special code to handle it in the GtkKeyHash class: http://cvs.gnome.org/lxr/source/gtk+/gtk/gtkkeyhash.c xev surprises me. Perhaps it was never updated for xkv and uses the old API? xev shows you the events as they are. This is what it should do. This only goes to show you that GTK (and others) have a special layer of logic to handle this, i.e. this is not solved on the X11 level by toggling some X11 feature. I also would like to solve this at the X level. I think you could create a new XKB il mapping where holding Ctrl or Alt is a modifier that activates the 1st shift group. It shouldn't be too hard. It's funny how I never got to it. Ideally, X would provide both the physical key and translated key and the application would choose according to context. X keyboard event structs are not going to change any time soon. X11 does not provide you a standardized physical key (unlike, say, WM_KEYDOWN with its VKs): it gives you either the keycode as it's received from the underlying input driver (non-standardized) or the keysym (the key after going thru the full XKB pipeline). The keycodes are tied to your keyboard driver (keyboard, evdev...) and keyboard model (that's why you specify microsoft104 etc. in your XKB config), so you shouldn't be tempted to use them. There's another kind of code, key names; the XKB keyboard model does the key code - key name translation. Key names are universal but are not supplied in the X11 key event structs :( I have already researched into it during my rdesktop keyboard handling work. In rdesktop, we need to map whatever we receive from X11 into Windows VKs (which are MS defines covering the AT2 standard keyboard). If you wish to resolve a key without the XKB translation layer, you can: 1. Be like VMWare; require root, hook up to the physical keyboard (switch console into raw mode / use evdev). The Linux console guarantees standard AT2 scancodes and performs the necessary translations. 2. Force resolving the key in the Nth group, regardless of the current keyboard group (= language): /* Change the bits (bit 13 to 16 -- see XkbGroupForCoreState) denoting the group. This way, we avoid using XkbKeycodeToKeysym which requires emulation Xkb shift level logics. */ keyevent-state = ~(0x3 13); keyevent-state |= (g_force_xkb_group 0x3) 13; XLookupString(keyevent, str, sizeof(str), keysym, NULL); 3. Programatically request the XKB layout from the X server to get the keycode-keyname () mapping. (e.g. Run xkbcomp :0 - to see what I'm talking about). In any case, physical keys is not something you want *in this case*. Think of Dvorak keyboard layouts.
Re: Keyboard shortcuts with Hebrew letters
On 27/12/06, Ilya Konstantinov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12/27/06, Beni Cherniavsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It appears that this is already partially fixed by the toolkits, most notably GTK. As Havoc Pennington already noted in the Mozilla bug 69230, Gtk has special code to handle it in the GtkKeyHash class: http://cvs.gnome.org/lxr/source/gtk+/gtk/gtkkeyhash.c xev surprises me. Perhaps it was never updated for xkv and uses the old API? xev shows you the events as they are. This is what it should do. This only goes to show you that GTK (and others) have a special layer of logic to handle this, i.e. this is not solved on the X11 level by toggling some X11 feature. I also would like to solve this at the X level. I think you could create a new XKB il mapping where holding Ctrl or Alt is a modifier that activates the 1st shift group. It shouldn't be too hard. It's funny how I never got to it. Ideally, X would provide both the physical key and translated key and the application would choose according to context. X keyboard event structs are not going to change any time soon. X11 does not provide you a standardized physical key (unlike, say, WM_KEYDOWN with its VKs): it gives you either the keycode as it's received from the underlying input driver (non-standardized) or the keysym (the key after going thru the full XKB pipeline). The keycodes are tied to your keyboard driver (keyboard, evdev...) and keyboard model (that's why you specify microsoft104 etc. in your XKB config), so you shouldn't be tempted to use them. There's another kind of code, key names; the XKB keyboard model does the key code - key name translation. Key names are universal but are not supplied in the X11 key event structs :( I have already researched into it during my rdesktop keyboard handling work. In rdesktop, we need to map whatever we receive from X11 into Windows VKs (which are MS defines covering the AT2 standard keyboard). If you wish to resolve a key without the XKB translation layer, you can: 1. Be like VMWare; require root, hook up to the physical keyboard (switch console into raw mode / use evdev). The Linux console guarantees standard AT2 scancodes and performs the necessary translations. 2. Force resolving the key in the Nth group, regardless of the current keyboard group (= language): /* Change the bits (bit 13 to 16 -- see XkbGroupForCoreState) denoting the group. This way, we avoid using XkbKeycodeToKeysym which requires emulation Xkb shift level logics. */ keyevent-state = ~(0x3 13); keyevent-state |= (g_force_xkb_group 0x3) 13; XLookupString(keyevent, str, sizeof(str), keysym, NULL); 3. Programatically request the XKB layout from the X server to get the keycode-keyname () mapping. (e.g. Run xkbcomp :0 - to see what I'm talking about). In any case, physical keys is not something you want *in this case*. Think of Dvorak keyboard layouts. I'm willing to forego the convinience of having the Dvorak layout working like qwerty for modifier purposes, if I could just get Hebrew layout working like qwerty for modifier purposes. But that seems to work for everybody but myself. I wonder if this is not just another stupidity of Kubuntu. _Lots_ of things are not as they should be in Kubuntu. I will reinstall Fedora when I get the chance, and if this issue is not resolved in Fedora then I'll pursue it further. Thanks. Dotan Cohen http://lyricslist.com/lyrics/artist_albums/427/rembrandts.php http://what-is-what.com/what_is/xss.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Keyboard shortcuts with Hebrew letters
On 12/27/06, Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm willing to forego the convinience of having the Dvorak layout working like qwerty for modifier purposes Yeah, but we cannot fix a bug by introducing a bug for another user. To be precise, you may implement it into your private build of Mozilla but it won't be added to the official code. There's a right way to solve this bug, and I've just noted the discussed way was a wrong one. I wonder if this is not just another stupidity of Kubuntu. No, it's not. It's a Mozilla bug.
Re: Keyboard shortcuts with Hebrew letters
On 27/12/06, Ilya Konstantinov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12/27/06, Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm willing to forego the convinience of having the Dvorak layout working like qwerty for modifier purposes Yeah, but we cannot fix a bug by introducing a bug for another user. To be precise, you may implement it into your private build of Mozilla but it won't be added to the official code. There's a right way to solve this bug, and I've just noted the discussed way was a wrong one. I wonder if this is not just another stupidity of Kubuntu. No, it's not. It's a Mozilla bug. I see that Mozilla has such a bug, but I'm not referring to Mozilla behaviour. I don't have the Hebrew shortcuts in any application. And yes, I'm looking to getting this working on my own box, not bug hunting. I'd love to solve bugs, but as you say I'll not inconvieniece others for my own sake. If there was I file that I could modify that would say Hey X: when you see Ctrl-ה please send Ctrl-V instead then I would be very happy. I'd modify it 20+ times, once for each key, and I'd be done forever, no matter what desktop or application I'm using. Dotan Cohen http://lyricslist.com/lyrics/lyrics/120/114/chapman_tracy/crossroads.php http://technology-sleuth.com/short_answer/what_is_hdtv.html
Re: Keyboard shortcuts with Hebrew letters
On 26/12/06, Diego Iastrubni [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The ctrl+c, ctrl+v problems are available in firefox, and this is a known bug. This is said that KDE does not have those problems, but I am pretty sure it's available on KDE as well. I will do my best in the next months to try and remove those problems from Qt4, and with some luck this will be OK for Qt4/KDE4. GTK users are doomed :) Thanks, Diego. I'm not sure that I understand what you are saying. Do you mean that you maintain the l18n of qt4, and that this issue will be resolved in KDE 4? If so then I will wait happily. And I cannot understand what you mean regarding Firefox. I don't see such a bug in Firefox bugzilla, and as I don't think that it's a Fx issue I would not file one. Also, is top-posting the norm here? Just need to know. Thank you very much. Dotan Cohen http://lyricslist.com/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Keyboard shortcuts with Hebrew letters
This seems to me an X issue, however it is strange that on my system I can not reproduce this bug. I use debian unstable with x.org, with gnome 2.14.2 the bug does not appear nither in firefox nor openoffice. -- Ori Idan On 12/26/06, Diego Iastrubni [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Unfortunately the only thing I can do is nag Trolltech until they the problems. Since I am develop apps using Qt4 (and I did have KDE4 until a few weeks ago), I can catch those bugs in Qt4/KDE4 before they reach mainstream. If you ask about KDE3/Qt3 - it's lost, they are not really maintaining this platform. The Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V is a known bug in Firefox (I assume someone will post the bug number here soon). I did not know it's available on OOo as well, I think it should be mentioned and then reported to them, otherwise they will not know about it, and they will not fix it. This is the sad thing about linux: several toolkits, on each one you need to solve the same problems. I would not have it other way :) BTW, I like post posting, but sanity and I are not good friends, so this might not be the norm on this list. ביום שלישי 26 דצמבר 2006, 17:15, נכתב על ידי Dotan Cohen: On 26/12/06, Diego Iastrubni [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The ctrl+c, ctrl+v problems are available in firefox, and this is a known bug. This is said that KDE does not have those problems, but I am pretty sure it's available on KDE as well. I will do my best in the next months to try and remove those problems from Qt4, and with some luck this will be OK for Qt4/KDE4. GTK users are doomed :) Thanks, Diego. I'm not sure that I understand what you are saying. Do you mean that you maintain the l18n of qt4, and that this issue will be resolved in KDE 4? If so then I will wait happily. And I cannot understand what you mean regarding Firefox. I don't see such a bug in Firefox bugzilla, and as I don't think that it's a Fx issue I would not file one. Also, is top-posting the norm here? Just need to know. Thank you very much. Dotan Cohen http://lyricslist.com/ -- diego, kde-il translation team - http://il.kde.org Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Keyboard shortcuts with Hebrew letters
On 26/12/06, Ori Idan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This seems to me an X issue, however it is strange that on my system I can not reproduce this bug. I use debian unstable with x.org, with gnome 2.14.2 the bug does not appear nither in firefox nor openoffice. Do you mean that on your system you can type Ctrl-ה and it pastes? Do you use KDE, Gnome, or something else? I also would like to solve this at the X level. Dotan Cohen http://lyricslist.com/ http://what-is-what.com/
Re: Keyboard shortcuts with Hebrew letters
Dotan Cohen wrote: I also would like to solve this at the X level. Then we will loose the option to use ctrl+ה as a real shortcut. Sorry, no. The bug is in (IMHO) hidden somewhere inside the xul engine's code. This is why we don't see it on pure Qt/KDE applications and pure GTK applications. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Keyboard shortcuts with Hebrew letters
On 26/12/06, Diego Iastrubni [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dotan Cohen wrote: I also would like to solve this at the X level. Then we will loose the option to use ctrl+ה as a real shortcut. Sorry, no. The bug is in (IMHO) hidden somewhere inside the xul engine's code. This is why we don't see it on pure Qt/KDE applications and pure GTK applications. I have absolutely no need for Ctrl-ה to be anything other than Paste, so I would actually like to loose the option. I'm not sure that this is a bug- I mean that I'm not sure than I'm not seeing expected behaviour. Is Ctrl-ה is KDE supposed to be Paste? (Like Windows and apparently Gnome do) Even if you would not want to add supprt for this to KDE trunk, how can i add it myself, for my own use? Thank you raba raba. Dotan Cohen http://dotancohen.com/eng/movies.php http://what-is-what.com/what_is/bios.html
Re: Keyboard shortcuts with Hebrew letters
On 26/12/06, Diego Iastrubni [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If it does not work for you (it does work for me, sometimes), you can set ctrl+ה as a secondary shortcut. You will find the dialog for changing the shortcuts in the settings dialog on every KDE application. Actually, I did try that. In the dialog it is only seen Ctrl-square. And the new shortcut didn't work. Also, I don't want to change this for every application individually, although it may help me learn shortcuts that I did not know existed. Is there not a way to tell X that when he sees Ctrl-ה to send Ctrl-V instead? Thank you for your patience in helping me. This will help me be very more productive and is very important to me. Dotan Cohen http://dotancohen.com/eng/dell.php http://mechonot.com
Re: Keyboard shortcuts with Hebrew letters
On 27/12/06, Ori Idan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This seems to me an X issue, however it is strange that on my system I can not reproduce this bug. I use debian unstable with x.org, with gnome 2.14.2 the bug does not appear nither in firefox nor openoffice. Did you try this with Firefox? I'm on similar system (testing (etch) instead of unstable, but otherwise identical) and it doesn't work for me with Firefox. To explain what I test: 1. Open gedit window (a classic GNOME/GTK application). 2. type some text in English. 3. mark and ctrl-c some text. 4. ctrl-v and you'll get the text. 5. switch to Hebrew keyboard 6. press ctrl-v and you'll still get another copy of the text (i.e. paste will work) 7. switch to firefox (e.g. gmail message compose) 8. type ctrl-v (remember - still on Hebrew keyboard) - NO reaction. 9. switch to English keyboard 10. type ctrl-v - WILL get a copy of the text in firefox. Here is the Bugzilla entry for Firefox link: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=69230 please vote for it. --Amos
Keyboard shortcuts with Hebrew letters
List newbie here, I've been using Fedora and Kubuntu for about a year though. I live in Nesher, and attend the Technion University. Can I post in Hebrew? First, I'd like to note that the addresses http://www.linux.org.il/linux-il-faq.html which new list subscribers get gives a 404. I've STFW and cannot find how to do what I need. I want that CTRL-[HebrewLetter] give the same functionality that CTRL-[EnglishLetter] gives. For instance, CTRL-ב should be copy, because ב shares a key with C. I use the KDE desktop, but googling the subject for a few hours makes me think that it needs to be configured at the X level. I don't mind defining them one-by-one so long as I do it only once, and I can save the definitions file for use on other installations. I would of course publish it for everyone to use. As much as I will be flamed, I must note that MS products work this way. For instance, in Word on Windows CTRL-נ makes the text bold, because נ shares a key with B. Thanks from the head. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com
