Re: [marxmail] The Two-State Solution Is an Unjust, Impossible Fantasy
Thank you, Hari. VERY THOUGHTFUL -- will require re-reading and more thought --- BUT you have correctly hit on the issue that "bothers" me --- and (on first read) I believe there does not appear to be any kind of "easy" answer --- quick thought about "nation" and religion --- Oftentimes, a national "grouping" will utilize the "same" religion as one of the building blocks --- In the case of black South Africa (Steve Biko style) the argument was the COMMON EXPERIENCES had "forged" a "Black South African Nation" but the fact that most black South Africans had adopted Christianity over the centuries of White occupation and domination played a role in that commonality YET, as we know from the internal fighting that occurred soon after Mandela was released from prison (certainly "encouraged" by the petit-nationalist opportunism of BUteliezi as well as the Apartheid dead-enders) such "nationalist" identification --- in Butelezis' case by the Zulu ethnic group( -- did not disappear just because Mandela was released. Lots to think about of course thanks again, Mike On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 9:03 AM hari kumar via groups.io wrote: > Michael M: > Honestly, I was hesitant about wading into the national question matter > that you raised. Because it is an incredibly complex matter which starts > from the definition of 'what is a nation?". This postulate as expressed > here, will inevitably spark differences. None will be easily resolvable > because inevitably statements will require historical detailing. But > perhaps a couple of simple points can be usefully made without need of much > external referencing. > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#30053): https://groups.io/g/marxmail/message/30053 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/105672267/21656 -=-=- POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. #4 Do not exceed five posts a day. -=-=- Group Owner: marxmail+ow...@groups.io Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/marxmail/leave/8674936/21656/1316126222/xyzzy [arch...@mail-archive.com] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Re: [marxmail] The Two-State Solution Is an Unjust, Impossible Fantasy
Michael M: Honestly, I was hesitant about wading into the national question matter that you raised. Because it is an incredibly complex matter which starts from the definition of 'what is a nation?". This postulate as expressed here, will inevitably spark differences. None will be easily resolvable because inevitably statements will require historical detailing. But perhaps a couple of simple points can be usefully made without need of much external referencing. i) I liked Jim F's response to the issue of India and Pakistan at several levels. My parents were refugees from Pakistan, but were Hindu by religion and not by nation. They belonged to the Sindhi proto-nation. Some of the current problems of India are directly traceable to the fact that India is a multi-national state whose development into a fuller fledged multinational pruning down into some dominant nations was interfered with by the entry of English, French and Portugese colonists. Subsequently these adventurers became adept at finding their proxy comprador agents who did their bidding. That process continued through and India never underwent a break from foreign economic control. Despite the advent of some forces that could have been said to represent a form of a 'national capital'. This is a big and long tale, but perhaps we can agree - that one fundamental error that Marxist *must* avoid is the equation of religion with nationality. I think Michael you try to avoid that trap, but there are some places where you fall into it. India is not - as that very cunning Modi claims - a bi-national nation between Muslims and Hindus. That was a mythology from the times of the colonists that the English perpetually nurtured. It was bought by that scoundrel Gandhi - who played the British imperialist cards for them. It was the British who divided India leaving factories on one side of the border, while leaving the raw materials on the other. Factories in Calcutta - jute in "Pakistan". ii) There are areas where the historical developments favour a sort of bilateral agreement where two national capitalists groupings come to an interim agreement - as perhaps can be traced out in Canada. Here both sets of capitalists (British and Quebecois) have a primary benefit from their 'own' working class. But these "agreements" are subject to the pressures of (a) the national capitalists wanting in their greed more privilige, and their firms needing to expand (b) the national working class wanting 'rights' which extend to national rights - as an expression of their recognition that they are being suppressed. But in the 21 st century they are being primarily suppressed by capitalism. Some will use the language of nationalism to express their sense of oppression. iii) In areas where there are planted colonies, such as was South Africa - if there was withdrawal of mother imperialist country fostering that planted colony - then there was a possibility of moving forward. That happened with South Africa: " The South African government has attempted to meet this threat by armed raids into the territories of these states, by blockades - as in the case of Lesotho in 1982 - and by bribery - as with the offer to Swaziland in 1982 (later withdrawn under domestic pressure) of the "homeland" of KaNgwane and part of KwaZulu. In 1979 the South African government elaborated the concept of a "Constellation of Southern African States" (CONSAS), under South African domination, embracing 11 states stretching up to the Equator; the aim of this abortive project was not only to strengthen South Africa's security but to furnish its economy with an extensive common market. This project stimulated 9 southern African states to form the Southern African Development Coordination Conference. (SADCC) with the aim of reducing their economic dependence upon South Africa. The CONSAS project was then revised into the form of a "Confederation of Southern African States" to embrace only South Africa and the "independent" homelands. The Organisation of African Unity (OAU), established in 1963, with the aim of promoting solidarity among African states and eradicating all. forms of colonialism from the continent, fully supports the national liberation struggle in South Africa. International loathing of apartheid has led not only to unofficial, but often effective, boycotts of South African goods, but to the isolation of South Africa from many aspects of international life. It has been excluded from participation in the Olympic Games, and from virtually all international sport except cricket and rugby, It has been expelled from the International Labour Organisation, the World Meteorological Organisation, the Universal Postal Union, the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank, and only the veto of Britain and the United States has averted its expulsion from the United Nations Organisation. In 1982 the World Alliance of Reformed Churches
Re: [marxmail] The Two-State Solution Is an Unjust, Impossible Fantasy
South Africa is an example where apartheid was replaced by a formally democratic state. Unfortunately South Africa remains capitalist and economically extremely unequal. At present the Israeli ruling class rejects such an outcome. But if the US government, under pressure from the mass protest movement, were to change its policy, it might be possible. The US would need to apply serious pressure on the Israeli government (including cutting arms supplies) to force it to change its position and seek a deal with a section of the Palestinian leadership, leading to a single state with formally equal rights for Jews and Palestinians. Such a South African-style agreement would be far from ideal. But it would be better than the current situation. Of course it would be better if a significant section of the Israeli Jewish working class broke with Zionism and joined with the Palestinians in a revolutionary challenge to the Israeli state. But I don't see any sign of this at present. Chris Slee -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#30050): https://groups.io/g/marxmail/message/30050 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/105672267/21656 -=-=- POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. #4 Do not exceed five posts a day. -=-=- Group Owner: marxmail+ow...@groups.io Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/marxmail/leave/8674936/21656/1316126222/xyzzy [arch...@mail-archive.com] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Re: [marxmail] The Two-State Solution Is an Unjust, Impossible Fantasy
The "Oslo process" was thirty years ago. If a two-state solution was really possible, it would have already happened by now. To the extent that such a solution was ever really possible, the conditions that would have made it a live option have long since passed. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#30047): https://groups.io/g/marxmail/message/30047 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/105672267/21656 -=-=- POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. #4 Do not exceed five posts a day. -=-=- Group Owner: marxmail+ow...@groups.io Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/marxmail/leave/8674936/21656/1316126222/xyzzy [arch...@mail-archive.com] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Re: [marxmail] The Two-State Solution Is an Unjust, Impossible Fantasy
My reading of history is that single nation states rarely have existed in fact, have sometimes had ethnic strife, but have frequently not had that kind of strife. For example, for most of its history ethnic conflict was minimal in the Ottoman empire. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#30044): https://groups.io/g/marxmail/message/30044 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/105672267/21656 -=-=- POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. #4 Do not exceed five posts a day. -=-=- Group Owner: marxmail+ow...@groups.io Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/marxmail/leave/8674936/21656/1316126222/xyzzy [arch...@mail-archive.com] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Re: [marxmail] The Two-State Solution Is an Unjust, Impossible Fantasy
On Mon, Apr 22, 2024 at 12:12 PM, Michael Meeropol wrote: > > After all the murder and mayhem between Israeli Jews and Palestinian > Christians and Muslims can they come together in a democratic secular > state? > > Despite the partition of India and Pakistan, I knew many Indians who have > told me that INDIA at least is a secular state where Muslims have full > citizenship rights --- has that REALLY been true with Modi CHANGING things > or has Modi just made explict what has always been implicit? > > I am REALLY asking the "nationality" question > > Even if a two-state solution is unfair and unjust --- isn't it likely that > a single democratic state is completely impossible --- that NEITHER group > will accept it no matter what the "law" says --- > I am not sure that I would want to uphold the partition of the British Raj into India and Pakistan as a great example of a two-state solution. That partition was accompanied by a great deal of ethnic and religious cleansing in both countries along with mass bloodshed. Furthermore, since that time, India and Pakistan have fought several wars. And nowadays, since both of those countries now possess nuclear weapons, if there is another war between those two countries that could be nuclear armegeddon. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#30042): https://groups.io/g/marxmail/message/30042 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/105672267/21656 -=-=- POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. #4 Do not exceed five posts a day. -=-=- Group Owner: marxmail+ow...@groups.io Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/marxmail/leave/8674936/21656/1316126222/xyzzy [arch...@mail-archive.com] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Re: [marxmail] The Two-State Solution Is an Unjust, Impossible Fantasy
Michael - We'll never know if a two-state solution could have been achieved in Palestine/Israel, but now with 700,000 religious fanatic settlers allowed to illegally be in the West Bank, the only way they can be removed would be by the Israeli military, which isn't going to happen. On Mon, Apr 22, 2024 at 12:12 PM Michael Meeropol via groups.io wrote: > RE: A single democratic state in Palestine ... > > Here's a problem I have had ever since many people have (perhaps rightly > --- I am relatively ignorant) concluded that a two-state solution is > impossible > > Can different "groups" however identified --- either racially as in the US > --- European-American and various Peoples of Color --- ethnically as in > French vs. English Canada --- etc. --- can there truly be a fully > democratic system where these two groups live together without one group > completely dominating the other? > > I mean is Switzerland an example where that happens? Has post-Apartheid > South Africa proven that it is possible? > > After all the murder and mayhem between Israeli Jews and Palestinian > Christians and Muslims can they come together in a democratic secular state? > > Despite the partition of India and Pakistan, I knew many Indians who have > told me that INDIA at least is a secular state where Muslims have full > citizenship rights --- has that REALLY been true with Modi CHANGING things > or has Modi just made explict what has always been implicit? > > I am REALLY asking the "nationality" question > > Even if a two-state solution is unfair and unjust --- isn't it likely that > a single democratic state is completely impossible --- that NEITHER group > will accept it no matter what the "law" says --- > > Post 1960s US was supposed to finally put second-class citizenship for > African Americans behind us --- but blacks continue to be killing by cops > disproportionately and voter suppression is alive and well --- ALMOST 60 > years after the Voting RIghts Act was passed. > > I am not asking this as rhetoric I really do wonder if the fires of > "nationalism" really interfere with people living together in peace in true > democracy > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2024 at 11:56 AM Dennis Brasky via groups.io gmail@groups.io> wrote: > >> The Two-State solution mantra has allowed policymakers to avoid >> confronting the reality that partition is unattainable in the case of >> Israel and Palestine, and illegitimate as an arrangement originally imposed >> on Palestinians without their consent. >> >> >> https://portside.org/2024-04-21/two-state-solution-unjust-impossible-fantasy >> >> >> _._ >> >> > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#30041): https://groups.io/g/marxmail/message/30041 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/105672267/21656 -=-=- POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. #4 Do not exceed five posts a day. -=-=- Group Owner: marxmail+ow...@groups.io Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/marxmail/leave/8674936/21656/1316126222/xyzzy [arch...@mail-archive.com] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Re: [marxmail] The Two-State Solution Is an Unjust, Impossible Fantasy
RE: A single democratic state in Palestine ... Here's a problem I have had ever since many people have (perhaps rightly --- I am relatively ignorant) concluded that a two-state solution is impossible Can different "groups" however identified --- either racially as in the US --- European-American and various Peoples of Color --- ethnically as in French vs. English Canada --- etc. --- can there truly be a fully democratic system where these two groups live together without one group completely dominating the other? I mean is Switzerland an example where that happens? Has post-Apartheid South Africa proven that it is possible? After all the murder and mayhem between Israeli Jews and Palestinian Christians and Muslims can they come together in a democratic secular state? Despite the partition of India and Pakistan, I knew many Indians who have told me that INDIA at least is a secular state where Muslims have full citizenship rights --- has that REALLY been true with Modi CHANGING things or has Modi just made explict what has always been implicit? I am REALLY asking the "nationality" question Even if a two-state solution is unfair and unjust --- isn't it likely that a single democratic state is completely impossible --- that NEITHER group will accept it no matter what the "law" says --- Post 1960s US was supposed to finally put second-class citizenship for African Americans behind us --- but blacks continue to be killing by cops disproportionately and voter suppression is alive and well --- ALMOST 60 years after the Voting RIghts Act was passed. I am not asking this as rhetoric I really do wonder if the fires of "nationalism" really interfere with people living together in peace in true democracy On Mon, Apr 22, 2024 at 11:56 AM Dennis Brasky via groups.io wrote: > The Two-State solution mantra has allowed policymakers to avoid > confronting the reality that partition is unattainable in the case of > Israel and Palestine, and illegitimate as an arrangement originally imposed > on Palestinians without their consent. > > > https://portside.org/2024-04-21/two-state-solution-unjust-impossible-fantasy > > > _._ > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#30040): https://groups.io/g/marxmail/message/30040 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/105672267/21656 -=-=- POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. #4 Do not exceed five posts a day. -=-=- Group Owner: marxmail+ow...@groups.io Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/marxmail/leave/8674936/21656/1316126222/xyzzy [arch...@mail-archive.com] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
[marxmail] The Two-State Solution Is an Unjust, Impossible Fantasy
The Two-State solution mantra has allowed policymakers to avoid confronting the reality that partition is unattainable in the case of Israel and Palestine, and illegitimate as an arrangement originally imposed on Palestinians without their consent. https://portside.org/2024-04-21/two-state-solution-unjust-impossible-fantasy -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#30038): https://groups.io/g/marxmail/message/30038 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/105672267/21656 -=-=- POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. #4 Do not exceed five posts a day. -=-=- Group Owner: marxmail+ow...@groups.io Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/marxmail/leave/8674936/21656/1316126222/xyzzy [arch...@mail-archive.com] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
