Re: [newbie] have we killed the reason we are here?
On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 19:21:57 -0500 Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: Nobody will bite your head off ... that's nonsense and you know it. -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ It is only with the heart one can see clearly; what is essential is invisible to the eye. -- The Fox, 'The Little Prince Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] have we killed the reason we are here?
On Wed, 2003-10-08 at 22:55, HaywireMac wrote: On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 19:21:57 -0500 Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: Nobody will bite your head off ... that's nonsense and you know it. awww just because... Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] have we killed the reason we are here?
On Thursday October 9 2003 01:50 am, Aron Smith wrote: On Wed, 2003-10-08 at 22:55, HaywireMac wrote: On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 19:21:57 -0500 Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: Nobody will bite your head off ... that's nonsense and you know it. awww just because... Ironically, just after I posted this request to move OT traffic to the OT list now I can't post to MdkOT. All my posts eventually get returned with Message from yahoo.com. Unable to deliver message to the following address(es). [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Sorry, I wasn't able to establish an SMTP connection. (#4.4.1) I'm not going to try again; this message has been in the queue too long. It's a damn shame the only DSL connection I can get is SBC- Yahoo. Yahoo sux, but they handle my mail and I'm stuck with that. -- Tom Brinkman Corpus Christi, Texas Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] have we killed the reason we are here?
On Thu, 2003-10-09 at 05:37, Tom Brinkman wrote: On Thursday October 9 2003 01:50 am, Aron Smith wrote: On Wed, 2003-10-08 at 22:55, HaywireMac wrote: On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 19:21:57 -0500 Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: to the OT list now I can't post to MdkOT. All my posts It's a damn shame the only DSL connection I can get is SBC- Yahoo. Yahoo sux, but they handle my mail and I'm stuck with that. I had been meaning to ask you about that SBC DSL connection I inquired at SBC about DSL and when I said Linux ... Well I'm not gonna ask again. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] have we killed the reason we are here?
--- Original Message --- It's a damn shame the only DSL connection I can get is SBC- Yahoo. Yahoo sux, but they handle my mail and I'm stuck with that. I had been meaning to ask you about that SBC DSL connection I inquired at SBC about DSL and when I said Linux ... Well I'm not gonna ask again. i've been using sbc dsl for 3-4 years now (since before pppoe) and have never had any trouble other than the infrequent hardware problems in their network. i've been using linux with it since day 1. i'm not sure what problems tom is having with his and i don't know what they told you about using linux but it works fine for me for a long time now. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] have we killed the reason we are here?
On Thu, 2003-10-09 at 08:43, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Original Message --- It's a damn shame the only DSL connection I can get is SBC- Yahoo. Yahoo sux, but they handle my mail and I'm stuck with that. I had been meaning to ask you about that SBC DSL connection I inquired at SBC about DSL and when I said Linux ... Well I'm not gonna ask again. i've been using sbc dsl for 3-4 years now (since before pppoe) and have never had any trouble other than the infrequent hardware problems in their network. i've been using linux with it since day 1. i'm not sure what problems tom is having with his and i don't know what they told you about using linux but it works fine for me for a long time now. You'd have thought that I was asking for their root password. __ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] have we killed the reason we are here?
On Thursday October 9 2003 08:07 am, Aron Smith wrote: It's a damn shame the only DSL connection I can get is SBC- Yahoo. Yahoo sux, but they handle my mail and I'm stuck with that. I had been meaning to ask you about that SBC DSL connection I inquired at SBC about DSL and when I said Linux ... Well I'm not gonna ask again. It was either them or cable. I get about 70 channel cable service thru the RV park I'm in at no cost. I didn't wanna give that up, plus Time Warner cable in this area has a lot of outages. So there was a good potential of not havin TV or an Internet connection for hours at a time. Cable was out for 6.5 hours just last Friday, 11AM to 5:30PM. Also many short fallouts due to sun spot activity this far south on the planet. OTOH, I believe I know what you're alluding to about SBC-Yahoo DSL. Only windoze is supported, and you _must_ use their Winsux installer to connect the first time to get a user name and password. They won't give you one over the phone. So I had to clear my first partition on hda and format it for fat32, install W98 and SBC's dumbass installer. Connect and establish userID and password. Then I booted Mandrake's 1st CD and reinstalled lilo, booted Linux and installed rp-pppoe, did the setup and connected! No muss, no fuss ;) Then I used diskdrake to erase Winsux and reformat hda1 for ReiserFS ;) PITA, but I only had to do it that one time. The connection is good. It's 1.5Megabit and averages about a steady 145 to 150Kbytes/sec thru Southwestern Bell. Never down. Unfortunately mail is thru Yahoo's server, smtp.sbcglobal.yahoo.com and it sux. I get some posts a day after they were sent. Some I never see, only replies to them. SW Bell has a Usenet newsfeed, but I also use (need) two paid services. Giganews and Athena, mostly for binaries. Stuff ISP newsfeeds don't carry (or allow) ; -- Tom Brinkman Corpus Christi, Texas Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] have we killed the reason we are here?
i've been using sbc dsl for 3-4 years now (since before pppoe) and have never had any trouble other than the infrequent hardware problems in their network. i've been using linux with it since day 1. i'm not sure what problems tom is having with his and i don't know what they told you about using linux but it works fine for me for a long time now. You'd have thought that I was asking for their root password. probably one who had no clue and you ended up talking at cross purposes (hopefully) Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] have we killed the reason we are here?
On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 06:07:41 -0700 Aron Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 2003-10-09 at 05:37, Tom Brinkman wrote: On Thursday October 9 2003 01:50 am, Aron Smith wrote: On Wed, 2003-10-08 at 22:55, HaywireMac wrote: On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 19:21:57 -0500 Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: to the OT list now I can't post to MdkOT. All my posts It's a damn shame the only DSL connection I can get is SBC- Yahoo. Yahoo sux, but they handle my mail and I'm stuck with that. I had been meaning to ask you about that SBC DSL connection I inquired at SBC about DSL and when I said Linux ... Well I'm not gonna ask again. Lie. Tell em you're on windows anyway if you make a tech call. thats what Linux Format did with Whatever the Telco in the UK is... (BTel isn't it... helps?)... Femme Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] have we killed the reason we are here?
On Thursday October 9 2003 01:01 pm, ed tharp wrote: On Thu, 2003-10-09 at 08:37, Tom Brinkman wrote: On Thursday October 9 2003 01:50 am, Aron Smith wrote: On Wed, 2003-10-08 at 22:55, HaywireMac wrote: On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 19:21:57 -0500 Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: Nobody will bite your head off ... that's nonsense and you know it. awww just because... Ironically, just after I posted this request to move OT traffic to the OT list now I can't post to MdkOT. All my posts eventually get returned with Message from yahoo.com. Unable to deliver message to the following address(es). [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Sorry, I wasn't able to establish an SMTP connection. (#4.4.1) I'm not going to try again; this message has been in the queue too long. It's a damn shame the only DSL connection I can get is SBC- Yahoo. Yahoo sux, but they handle my mail and I'm stuck with that. damn shame I guess that explains why you did not have something to say about http://ed-tharp.is-a-geek.org/tombrinkmannascar.jpg;... I did, I asked if that was your wife sittin next to me ;ppp It failed to get thru tho ;( -- Tom Brinkman Corpus Christi, Texas Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] have we killed the reason we are here?
On Thu, 2003-10-09 at 15:18, Tom Brinkman wrote: On Thursday October 9 2003 01:01 pm, ed tharp wrote: On Thu, 2003-10-09 at 08:37, Tom Brinkman wrote: On Thursday October 9 2003 01:50 am, Aron Smith wrote: On Wed, 2003-10-08 at 22:55, HaywireMac wrote: On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 19:21:57 -0500 Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: Nobody will bite your head off ... that's nonsense and you know it. awww just because... Ironically, just after I posted this request to move OT traffic to the OT list now I can't post to MdkOT. All my posts eventually get returned with Message from yahoo.com. Unable to deliver message to the following address(es). [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Sorry, I wasn't able to establish an SMTP connection. (#4.4.1) I'm not going to try again; this message has been in the queue too long. It's a damn shame the only DSL connection I can get is SBC- Yahoo. Yahoo sux, but they handle my mail and I'm stuck with that. damn shame I guess that explains why you did not have something to say about http://ed-tharp.is-a-geek.org/tombrinkmannascar.jpg;... I did, I asked if that was your wife sittin next to me ;ppp It failed to get thru tho ;( I figured you were the guy in the red hat, 3 rows in front of Hairy. g -- ++ Mandrake HowTo's More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] have we killed the reason we are here?
On Thu, 2003-10-09 at 09:21, Tom Brinkman wrote: On Thursday October 9 2003 08:07 am, Aron Smith wrote: It's a damn shame the only DSL connection I can get is SBC- Yahoo. Yahoo sux, but they handle my mail and I'm stuck with that. I had been meaning to ask you about that SBC DSL connection I inquired at SBC about DSL and when I said Linux ... Well I'm not gonna ask again. It was either them or cable. I get about 70 channel cable service thru the RV park I'm in at no cost. I didn't wanna give that up, plus Time Warner cable in this area has a lot of outages. So there was a good potential of not havin TV or an Internet connection for hours at a time. Cable was out for 6.5 hours just last Friday, 11AM to 5:30PM. Also many short fallouts due to sun spot activity this far south on the planet. OTOH, I believe I know what you're alluding to about SBC-Yahoo DSL. Only windoze is supported, and you _must_ use their Winsux installer to connect the first time to get a user name and password. They won't give you one over the phone. So I had to clear my first partition on hda and format it for fat32, install W98 and SBC's dumbass installer. Connect and establish userID and password. Then I booted Mandrake's 1st CD and reinstalled lilo, booted Linux and installed rp-pppoe, did the setup and connected! No muss, no fuss ;) Then I used diskdrake to erase Winsux and reformat hda1 for ReiserFS ;) PITA, but I only had to do it that one time. The connection is good. It's 1.5Megabit and averages about a steady 145 to 150Kbytes/sec thru Southwestern Bell. Never down. Unfortunately mail is thru Yahoo's server, smtp.sbcglobal.yahoo.com and it sux. I get some posts a day after they were sent. Some I never see, only replies to them. SW Bell has a Usenet newsfeed, but I also use (need) two paid services. Giganews and Athena, mostly for binaries. Stuff ISP newsfeeds don't carry (or allow) ; you're right it is a PITA Think I'll stick with speakeasy I'm getting consistent 65k downloads (if it's bits it sux iif its bytes it flys Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] have we killed the reason we are here?
On Thu, 2003-10-09 at 10:41, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i've been using sbc dsl for 3-4 years now (since before pppoe) and have never had any trouble other than the infrequent hardware problems in their network. i've been using linux with it since day 1. i'm not sure what problems tom is having with his and i don't know what they told you about using linux but it works fine for me for a long time now. You'd have thought that I was asking for their root password. probably one who had no clue and you ended up talking at cross purposes (hopefully) dosn'doesn't that describe most tech support? __ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] have we killed the reason we are here?
On Thu, 2003-10-09 at 08:37, Tom Brinkman wrote: On Thursday October 9 2003 01:50 am, Aron Smith wrote: On Wed, 2003-10-08 at 22:55, HaywireMac wrote: On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 19:21:57 -0500 Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: Nobody will bite your head off ... that's nonsense and you know it. awww just because... Ironically, just after I posted this request to move OT traffic to the OT list now I can't post to MdkOT. All my posts eventually get returned with Message from yahoo.com. Unable to deliver message to the following address(es). [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Sorry, I wasn't able to establish an SMTP connection. (#4.4.1) I'm not going to try again; this message has been in the queue too long. It's a damn shame the only DSL connection I can get is SBC- Yahoo. Yahoo sux, but they handle my mail and I'm stuck with that. damn shame I guess that explains why you did not have something to say about http://ed-tharp.is-a-geek.org/tombrinkmannascar.jpg;... Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] have we killed the reason we are here?
(I'm 3 days behind in my reading, apologies if this has been covered to death). Thanks Ed. I'm new here these last few weeks and felt it wasn't my place, but I wholeheartedly agree. Too much unrelated blathering going on. ed tharp [EMAIL PROTECTED]@linux-mandrake.com on 10/05/2003 04:51:07 AM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To:Mandrake Off topic [EMAIL PROTECTED], newbie [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:[newbie] have we killed the reason we are here? My patience with newbie is wearing somewhat thin too. I find myself frequently just marking all messages as read without reading them because so many are OT of just personal conversations. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] have we killed the reason we are here?
On Sunday 05 Oct 2003 12:51 pm, ed tharp wrote: So any suggestions? Only that I would add that there has been more than one post on the expert list lately, saying that people on the newbie list are so busy with their OTs and political arguments that they do not reply to ordinary requests for help. Yes, people do leave for this reason. Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Have you visited http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org yet? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] have we killed the reason we are here?
On Sun, 2003-10-05 at 07:51, ed tharp wrote: First please don't shoot me for posting this in more than one list. I am seeing more and more post like this on newbie. My patience with newbie is wearing somewhat thin too. I find myself frequently just marking all messages as read without reading them because so many are OT of just personal conversations. AND I'm sorry, but there is a limit as to how long any of us can tolerate deliberate bad manners. You have wasted our time and bandwidth with arguing something that should have been simply accepted as a requirement of this list - a voluntary mutual help list. I know I am as guilty as anyone. ?Maybe we on the OT list should make an effort to not chase off so many folks that do not agree with our political views? or maybe just asking Haywire to return on his better behavior, or replying to Stephens Kuhn's and Haywire's posts here, and only with a note that teh reply is over here to save bandwidth? that 'here' is referring to the OT list at; mdw1982.dyndns.org List-Subscribe: http://mdw1982.dyndns.org/mailman/listinfo/mandrakeot, mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] List-Archive: http://mdw1982.dyndns.org/pipermail/mandrakeot/ I also have previously invited some other friends, that are in Spain, that were pretty helpful for the couple of weeks they could stand the newbie list, but they too were run off by the bandwidth waste (or signal to noise ratio) on Newbie. But you don't really hear about how many left because they could not deal with the volume. (kinda like how unhappy customers are less likely to complain than just go shop somewhere else) So any suggestions? -- ++ Mandrake HowTo's More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] have we killed the reason we are here?
and as a note,,, this discussion will continue on the OT list. A good suggestion was already posted by Sir Robin, and I thought it was worth repeating, (and since I was already going to post that this tread should be continued over there) ; I saw a documentary which included footage of research done on couples' arguments. The couples who were classed as having stable relationships with a good chance of long-term success argued quite a lot, but in there arguments there was a ratio of around five positive comments to one negative one. So if we want to make a list a more pleasant place to be, we should remember to post when we agree as well as when we disagree, especially if the other person is in the other political camp. but lets keep a lot of the I agree or me too to the OT list too. Thanks ET Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] have we killed the reason we are here?
Anne Wilson wrote: On Sunday 05 Oct 2003 12:51 pm, ed tharp wrote: So any suggestions? Only that I would add that there has been more than one post on the expert list lately, saying that people on the newbie list are so busy with their OTs and political arguments that they do not reply to ordinary requests for help. Yes, people do leave for this reason. I've seen this problem on almost every technical/specialist list I've been subscribed to, from linux to linguistics. The reason for OT blooms is that replying to an OT thread requires no special knowledge, so the average user is more likely to respond to an OT thread than one on, say, ipchains. Some OT threads still have a place on this list because they are of interest to list members - the software patent thread is a good example (at least the start of it was). As soon as these threads stray into general politics or personal chat, though, it's time to take them over to the OT list. That's _why_ we have an OT list: http://mdw1982.dyndns.org/mailman/listinfo/mandrakeot Sir Robin -- I can say: 'Thank these bees for their honey as though they were kind people who have prepared it for you'; that is intelligible and describes how I should like you to conduct yourself. But I cannot say: 'Thank them because, look, how kind they are!'--since the next moment they may sting you. - Wittgenstein Robin Turner IDMYO Bilkent Univeritesi Ankara 06533 Turkey www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] have we killed the reason we are here?
Daryl Johnson wrote: On Sunday 05 Oct 2003 1:59 pm, robin wrote: Anne Wilson wrote: On Sunday 05 Oct 2003 12:51 pm, ed tharp wrote: So any suggestions? How about suggesting that anti-Ms messages are forbidden? They seem to waste a lot of bandwidth wilth posters aiming to prove their linux credentials by dissing the alpha male. That's not bad as a general rule, but I still think there is a place for MS-related posts when there is a relevance to Linux/OSS, as in the case of the Phoenix BIOS post. BTW, please delete the reply-to field in your mail client! Sir Robin -- I can say: 'Thank these bees for their honey as though they were kind people who have prepared it for you'; that is intelligible and describes how I should like you to conduct yourself. But I cannot say: 'Thank them because, look, how kind they are!'--since the next moment they may sting you. - Wittgenstein Robin Turner IDMYO Bilkent Univeritesi Ankara 06533 Turkey www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] have we killed the reason we are here?
On Sun, 2003-10-05 at 15:44, robin wrote: Daryl Johnson wrote: On Sunday 05 Oct 2003 1:59 pm, robin wrote: Anne Wilson wrote: On Sunday 05 Oct 2003 12:51 pm, ed tharp wrote: So any suggestions? How about suggesting that anti-Ms messages are forbidden? They seem to waste a lot of bandwidth wilth posters aiming to prove their linux credentials by dissing the alpha male. That's not bad as a general rule, but I still think there is a place for MS-related posts when there is a relevance to Linux/OSS, as in the case of the Phoenix BIOS post. BTW, please delete the reply-to field in your mail client! Sir Robin Just so long as I don't have to acknowledge any M$ product as 'the alpha male'. I might even go so far as anti-anything messages should be kept to the barest possible minimum. lets work for 'positive' and pro-active solutions -- ++ Mandrake HowTo's More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] have we killed the reason we are here?
On Sunday October 5 2003 03:08 pm, ed tharp wrote: That's not bad as a general rule, but I still think there is a place for MS-related posts when there is a relevance to Linux/OSS, as in the case of the Phoenix BIOS post. BTW, please delete the reply-to field in your mail client! Sir Robin Just so long as I don't have to acknowledge any M$ product as 'the alpha male'. I might even go so far as anti-anything messages should be kept to the barest possible minimum. lets work for 'positive' and pro-active solutions Hell, if we couldn't rant on about M$ B$, a lot of threads would lose a bunch of substance. Most of y'all attack the sloppiness of Billy's software, but fail to see how much M$ influence has degraded desktop hardware quality and ability over the years. If it keeps up I'll probly need to buy server racks to keep runnin Linux. M$ comments should be embedded in (intending to be) 'helpful' Linux use replies. New users' queries to newbie about Linux shouldn't be overly scared away with posts about windoze hardare and software crapiness an questionable suitability for Linux. After all the Linux community is workin very hard to deal with proprietary hardware, even M$ software. And doin better each an every day. There I agree, tryin be positive an not derogative in replies to new Linux users. Problem is, so is the dark side, an they're gainin ground. More'n more hardware (even firmware) is becoming more'n more M$ and/or proprietary dependant. To quote M$ and many other hardware vendors, 'It only works with Windows (XP)'. I didn't join in to the M$ bios thread because I considered it a 'borderline' OT subject, but the recent stories (really old news) about M$/bios integration is nothin new. IBM, Apple, and some others have long ago adopted that strategy. Difference is they did it with OPEN standards. I doubt M$ will do so since they've tried to corral anything they can get a foot in the door with, and EEE (extend, embrace, extinguish or control). IOW's ... CLOSED. The real shame is the hardware (or specially in the case of win-hardware) SUX! (btw, the worst bios, Phoenix... has for several years since they bought 'em, owned the best .. Award. Think of it as OEM it's probly Phoenix, quality it's still Award) I too noticed the alpha male remark. It's part of M$'s successful brain washin. They've got a lot of the world's population thinkin they were the beginning ... and will be the end all. Neither of which is/will be true, in spite of many not even being aware of anything else, before or after. But OTOH, most new Linux users wouldn't be here unless they've already suspected M$ veracity an capability. As to the subject, there's only one solution. Ignore, don't participate in OT for the list threads. If ya wanna spout about topics semi or completely unrelated to Mandrake Newbie, please join us at http://mdw1982.dyndns.org/mailman/listinfo/mandrakeot Please realize that newbies are the most important Linux users, with their testing, questions, complaints an suggestions. Without them, there'd only be M$, and viable much better alternatives would be only for a few, an certainly not single desktop users. I was reluctant to reply to this thread, as I thought it at least semi off topic. BUT this list needs to seriously reduce OT posts. Please post Linux accomplishments and or M$ failures to the OT list. Specially political, even religious topics. Nobody will bite your head off ... you might even convince somebody or two. -- Tom Brinkman Corpus Christi, Texas Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] have we killed the reason we are here?
On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 15:26:13 +0100, Daryl Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How about suggesting that anti-Ms messages are forbidden? They seem to waste a lot of bandwidth wilth posters aiming to prove their linux credentials by dissing the alpha male. Some, perhaps, but I believe there is value in sharing anti-M$ info that equips users to promote Linux and Mandrake in the flesh-and-blood world. That requires understanding how M$ programs, deals with other companies, makes patches, crafts licenses, engages in politics, and so on. I think there are far simpler ways to cut down on bandwidth: 1) Keep your politics and philosophy to yourself. Everybody hates America. We get it. Shut up, already. 2) Resist the urge to contribute responses that are not substantive and add relevant info. I know I need to work even harder on this myself. 3) When you respond, cut out the sections of the original post that are unnecessary, including multiple blank lines, sigs, and anything that doesn't pertain to what you're saying. INMNSHO one should only quote enough to give context to what you're saying, and the e-mail/date/etc. of the person you're responding to. If somebody snags your message from an archive, your response will make perfect sense, and the reader will be fully able to contribute something further to either the list or the original poster if they so wish. Miark Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] have we killed the reason we are here?
On Sun, 2003-10-05 at 17:21, Tom Brinkman wrote: On Sunday October 5 2003 03:08 pm, ed tharp wrote: That's not bad as a general rule, but I still think there is a place for MS-related posts when there is a relevance to Linux/OSS, as in the case of the Phoenix BIOS post. BTW, please delete the reply-to field in your mail client! Sir Robin Just so long as I don't have to acknowledge any M$ product as 'the alpha male'. I might even go so far as anti-anything messages should be kept to the barest possible minimum. lets work for 'positive' and pro-active solutions Hell, if we couldn't rant on about M$ B$, a lot of threads would lose a bunch of substance. Most of y'all attack the sloppiness of Billy's software, but fail to see how much M$ influence has degraded desktop hardware quality and ability over the years. If it keeps up I'll probly need to buy server racks to keep runnin Linux. M$ comments should be embedded in (intending to be) 'helpful' Linux use replies. New users' queries to newbie about Linux shouldn't be overly scared away with posts about windoze hardare and software crapiness an questionable suitability for Linux. After all the Linux community is workin very hard to deal with proprietary hardware, even M$ software. And doin better each an every day. There I agree, tryin be positive an not derogative in replies to new Linux users. Problem is, so is the dark side, an they're gainin ground. More'n more hardware (even firmware) is becoming more'n more M$ and/or proprietary dependant. To quote M$ and many other hardware vendors, 'It only works with Windows (XP)'. I didn't join in to the M$ bios thread because I considered it a 'borderline' OT subject, but the recent stories (really old news) about M$/bios integration is nothin new. IBM, Apple, and some others have long ago adopted that strategy. Difference is they did it with OPEN standards. I doubt M$ will do so since they've tried to corral anything they can get a foot in the door with, and EEE (extend, embrace, extinguish or control). IOW's ... CLOSED. The real shame is the hardware (or specially in the case of win-hardware) SUX! (btw, the worst bios, Phoenix... has for several years since they bought 'em, owned the best .. Award. Think of it as OEM it's probly Phoenix, quality it's still Award) I too noticed the alpha male remark. It's part of M$'s successful brain washin. They've got a lot of the world's population thinkin they were the beginning ... and will be the end all. Neither of which is/will be true, in spite of many not even being aware of anything else, before or after. But OTOH, most new Linux users wouldn't be here unless they've already suspected M$ veracity an capability. As to the subject, there's only one solution. Ignore, don't participate in OT for the list threads. If ya wanna spout about topics semi or completely unrelated to Mandrake Newbie, please join us at http://mdw1982.dyndns.org/mailman/listinfo/mandrakeot Please realize that newbies are the most important Linux users, with their testing, questions, complaints an suggestions. Without them, there'd only be M$, and viable much better alternatives would be only for a few, an certainly not single desktop users. I was reluctant to reply to this thread, as I thought it at least semi off topic. BUT this list needs to seriously reduce OT posts. Please post Linux accomplishments and or M$ failures to the OT list. Specially political, even religious topics. Nobody will bite your head off ... you might even convince somebody or two. Think of this list as learning and the OT list as recess. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
