Re: [sage-devel] Apple deprecates Python

2019-06-08 Thread John H Palmieri 


On Saturday, June 8, 2019 at 8:56:09 AM UTC-7, Dima Pasechnik wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sat, 8 Jun 2019 16:50 John H Palmieri,  > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, June 8, 2019 at 1:25:11 AM UTC-7, vdelecroix wrote:
>>>
>>> Le 07/06/2019 à 16:44, Jeroen Demeyer a écrit : 
>>> > On 2019-06-07 16:38, E. Madison Bray wrote: 
>>> >> While I agree it's part of an annoying trend, this is one change I 
>>> >> welcome:  The Python interpreter shipped in OSX has always *always* 
>>> >> been broken and unusable 
>>> > 
>>> > What matters for Sage is: was it sufficiently functional to bootstrap 
>>> a 
>>> > build of Sage? 
>>>
>>> Not only. As Volker said in the initial message of the thread, Python is 
>>> a dependency of the Sage binaries. 
>>>
>>
>> Although Sage binaries come with functioning builds of Python, so we 
>> could conceivably use those if there is no system Python.
>>
>
> it is a chicken vs egg problem. One needs system python to install Sage 
> first.
>

When I was trying to fix some problem in relocate-once.py, I tried using 
Sage's Python to execute it, and that seemed to work. Another fix arose, so 
it still uses the system Python, but it is possible that Sage's Python 
could be used to run relocate-once.py. What else do we need the system 
Python for?


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Re: [sage-devel] Apple deprecates Python

2019-06-08 Thread Dima Pasechnik 
On Sat, 8 Jun 2019 16:50 John H Palmieri,  wrote:

>
>
> On Saturday, June 8, 2019 at 1:25:11 AM UTC-7, vdelecroix wrote:
>>
>> Le 07/06/2019 à 16:44, Jeroen Demeyer a écrit :
>> > On 2019-06-07 16:38, E. Madison Bray wrote:
>> >> While I agree it's part of an annoying trend, this is one change I
>> >> welcome:  The Python interpreter shipped in OSX has always *always*
>> >> been broken and unusable
>> >
>> > What matters for Sage is: was it sufficiently functional to bootstrap a
>> > build of Sage?
>>
>> Not only. As Volker said in the initial message of the thread, Python is
>> a dependency of the Sage binaries.
>>
>
> Although Sage binaries come with functioning builds of Python, so we could
> conceivably use those if there is no system Python.
>

it is a chicken vs egg problem. One needs system python to install Sage
first.

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Re: [sage-devel] Apple deprecates Python

2019-06-08 Thread John H Palmieri 


On Saturday, June 8, 2019 at 1:25:11 AM UTC-7, vdelecroix wrote:
>
> Le 07/06/2019 à 16:44, Jeroen Demeyer a écrit : 
> > On 2019-06-07 16:38, E. Madison Bray wrote: 
> >> While I agree it's part of an annoying trend, this is one change I 
> >> welcome:  The Python interpreter shipped in OSX has always *always* 
> >> been broken and unusable 
> > 
> > What matters for Sage is: was it sufficiently functional to bootstrap a 
> > build of Sage? 
>
> Not only. As Volker said in the initial message of the thread, Python is 
> a dependency of the Sage binaries. 
>

Although Sage binaries come with functioning builds of Python, so we could 
conceivably use those if there is no system Python.

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Re: [sage-devel] Apple deprecates Python

2019-06-08 Thread Vincent Delecroix 

Le 07/06/2019 à 16:44, Jeroen Demeyer a écrit :

On 2019-06-07 16:38, E. Madison Bray wrote:

While I agree it's part of an annoying trend, this is one change I
welcome:  The Python interpreter shipped in OSX has always *always*
been broken and unusable


What matters for Sage is: was it sufficiently functional to bootstrap a 
build of Sage?


Not only. As Volker said in the initial message of the thread, Python is
a dependency of the Sage binaries.

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Re: [sage-devel] Apple deprecates Python

2019-06-07 Thread E. Madison Bray 
On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 7:37 PM John H Palmieri  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Friday, June 7, 2019 at 7:44:03 AM UTC-7, Jeroen Demeyer wrote:
>>
>> On 2019-06-07 16:38, E. Madison Bray wrote:
>> > While I agree it's part of an annoying trend, this is one change I
>> > welcome:  The Python interpreter shipped in OSX has always *always*
>> > been broken and unusable
>>
>> What matters for Sage is: was it sufficiently functional to bootstrap a
>> build of Sage?
>
>
> And from this point of view, will Python be included in Xcode's command line 
> utilities, or something similar? That would be good enough for our purposes. 
> (It doesn't seem like that big a deal if we have to say: install the 
> command-line utilities and now also this "scripting language" package.)

That would be an actual improvement I'd say--a Python shipped and
managed as part of Xcode, explicitly intended for development use,
would be a step up over a hobbled system Python intended solely for
internal use.

Having extra steps for actually setting up a development environment
is fine as long as it's easily documented and repeatable.

The only hard part about that is the always shifting nature of Xcode :/

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Re: [sage-devel] Apple deprecates Python

2019-06-07 Thread John H Palmieri 


On Friday, June 7, 2019 at 7:44:03 AM UTC-7, Jeroen Demeyer wrote:
>
> On 2019-06-07 16:38, E. Madison Bray wrote: 
> > While I agree it's part of an annoying trend, this is one change I 
> > welcome:  The Python interpreter shipped in OSX has always *always* 
> > been broken and unusable 
>
> What matters for Sage is: was it sufficiently functional to bootstrap a 
> build of Sage? 
>

And from this point of view, will Python be included in Xcode's command 
line utilities, or something similar? That would be good enough for our 
purposes. (It doesn't seem like that big a deal if we have to say: install 
the command-line utilities and now also this "scripting language" package.)

-- 
John

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Re: [sage-devel] Apple deprecates Python

2019-06-07 Thread Jeroen Demeyer 

On 2019-06-07 16:38, E. Madison Bray wrote:

While I agree it's part of an annoying trend, this is one change I
welcome:  The Python interpreter shipped in OSX has always *always*
been broken and unusable


What matters for Sage is: was it sufficiently functional to bootstrap a 
build of Sage?


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Re: [sage-devel] Apple deprecates Python

2019-06-07 Thread E. Madison Bray 
On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 2:14 PM Volker Braun  wrote:
>
> In their ongoing war against general computation, Apple has announced that 
> they deprecate (and presumably eventually remove) a Python interpreter from 
> OSX.
>
> Python is a dependency of the Sage binaries (for rewiting paths) and also for 
> building Sage.
>
> The easiest solution is probably to let people first manually install python, 
> though thats not exactly user-friendly for the binaries...

While I agree it's part of an annoying trend, this is one change I
welcome:  The Python interpreter shipped in OSX has always *always*
been broken and unusable, and I've wasted countless molecules of
oxygen explaining to Mac users that they shouldn't be using them, and
should instead install a third-party Python (whether the official
python.org app, homebrow, conda, etc.)

A better, more welcome solution would have been if they just provided
non-broken Python and Perl installations in the OS, but that would
require maintenance and things like package management and Apple won't
commit to so, yeah, instead we just get the middle finger :)

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Re: [sage-devel] Apple deprecates Python

2019-06-07 Thread Dima Pasechnik 
On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 1:55 PM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
>
> On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 1:14 PM Volker Braun  wrote:
> >
> > In their ongoing war against general computation, Apple has announced that 
> > they deprecate (and presumably eventually remove) a Python interpreter from 
> > OSX.
>
> https://developer.apple.com/documentation/macos_release_notes/macos_10_15_beta_release_notes
>
> says:
>
> "Scripting language runtimes such as Python, Ruby, and Perl are
> included in macOS for compatibility with legacy software. Future
> versions of macOS won’t include scripting language runtimes by
> default, and might require you to install additional packages. If your
> software depends on scripting languages, it’s recommended that you
> bundle the runtime within the app."
>
> I read it as shells won't be included either - for they are scripting
> languages :-)

well, they also say that the default shell for (new) user accounts
will be zsh, so we better clean
up the Sage installation in this respect too...

https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT208050


>
> >
> > Python is a dependency of the Sage binaries (for rewiting paths) and also 
> > for building Sage.
> >
> > The easiest solution is probably to let people first manually install 
> > python, though thats not exactly user-friendly for the binaries...
> >
> > --
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Re: [sage-devel] Apple deprecates Python

2019-06-07 Thread Dima Pasechnik 
On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 1:14 PM Volker Braun  wrote:
>
> In their ongoing war against general computation, Apple has announced that 
> they deprecate (and presumably eventually remove) a Python interpreter from 
> OSX.

https://developer.apple.com/documentation/macos_release_notes/macos_10_15_beta_release_notes

says:

"Scripting language runtimes such as Python, Ruby, and Perl are
included in macOS for compatibility with legacy software. Future
versions of macOS won’t include scripting language runtimes by
default, and might require you to install additional packages. If your
software depends on scripting languages, it’s recommended that you
bundle the runtime within the app."

I read it as shells won't be included either - for they are scripting
languages :-)

>
> Python is a dependency of the Sage binaries (for rewiting paths) and also for 
> building Sage.
>
> The easiest solution is probably to let people first manually install python, 
> though thats not exactly user-friendly for the binaries...
>
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