Re: [sage-devel] Re: Application for NumFOCUS affiliation of SageMath

[Matthias Koeppe]

Thanks a lot, William. 
I've submitted our application to NumFOCUS today to meet the Apr 15 
deadline. 
I'll keep everyone posted as soon as I hear anything back.

On Sunday, March 10, 2024 at 9:05:36 AM UTC-7 William Stein wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I also strongly support this initiative for Sage to join NumFocus at this 
> point in time.  
>
> Regarding Cython, I made up the name in maybe 2008, and started it as a 
> project by combining "Pyrex" that Greg Ewing worked on periodically, 
> my own fork of Pyrex that had features I added that were needed for Sage, 
> and  Stefan Behnel's fork that was needed for lxml.
> Robert Bradshaw (my phd student at the time) and Craig Citro (my postdoc) 
> then started working on it, and they added a huge amount
> of functionality, e.g., they fully implemented closures, which was 
> nontrivial; also, I remember they added some type 
> inference optimizations, and generally greatly improved the unit testing.  
> I've cc'd Robert and Craig in case they want to add anything.
> Sage has always been I think by far the biggest Cython user, and testing 
> of Cython by Sage helps ensure better stability and quality.
>
>  -- William
>
> On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 8:50 AM David Roe  wrote:
>
>> I support Matthias' initiative to join NumFocus.  Looking at the 
>> application , there are 
>> only a few todo items:
>> * Describe the shared history with Cython and IPython.  This doesn't need 
>> to be extensive, but would be useful.
>> * If we update the code of conduct in #37501 
>> , we should update the 
>> dates when the code of conduct was last modified.
>>
>> There is also discussion at the bottom about Sage's governance structure, 
>> but I don't think that's required for an affiliated project.
>> David
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 5, 2024 at 3:37 PM Matthias Koeppe  
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't think one needs to read between the lines. Per 
>>> https://jupyter.org/governance/linux-proposal.html#project-jupyter-s-needs 
>>> it's about funding goals in the $1-$2 million range + permanent staffing + 
>>> support for "operating" (which is described there as "legal/trademark, 
>>> marketing, fundraising, accounting, contracts, internships, events, dev 
>>> ops, etc.")
>>> None of these seem relevant for our current effort to become a NumFOCUS 
>>> affiliated project.
>>>
>>> But as there is a sudden sign of life in this thread, let me point out 
>>> that I have an expanded version of the initial proposal draft:
>>> https://github.com/sagemath/sage/wiki/NumFOCUS and I welcome discussion 
>>> here and collaborative editing in the wiki page. 
>>> I'll submit by the next target date (Apr 15).
>>>
>>> Matthias
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, March 5, 2024 at 11:28:38 AM UTC-8 kcrisman wrote:
>>>
 On Tuesday, March 5, 2024 at 2:08:07 PM UTC-5 William Stein wrote:

 Hi,

 Related to NumFOCUS, this new proposal for Jupyter to restructure their 
 relationship with NumFocus is possibly relevant:

 https://jupyter.org/governance/linux-proposal.html


 Interesting, and certainly relevant.  It's a little unclear to me why 
 NumFOCUS is not appropriate for them, other than a vague reference to 
 operations - can anyone read between the lines for those of us not as 
 plugged into that world?

>>> -- 
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>>>  
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>> -- 
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>>
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
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>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>
>
> -- 
> William (http://wstein.org)
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Application for NumFOCUS affiliation of SageMath

[William Stein]

Hi,

I also strongly support this initiative for Sage to join NumFocus at this
point in time.

Regarding Cython, I made up the name in maybe 2008, and started it as a
project by combining "Pyrex" that Greg Ewing worked on periodically,
my own fork of Pyrex that had features I added that were needed for Sage,
and  Stefan Behnel's fork that was needed for lxml.
Robert Bradshaw (my phd student at the time) and Craig Citro (my postdoc)
then started working on it, and they added a huge amount
of functionality, e.g., they fully implemented closures, which was
nontrivial; also, I remember they added some type
inference optimizations, and generally greatly improved the unit testing.
I've cc'd Robert and Craig in case they want to add anything.
Sage has always been I think by far the biggest Cython user, and testing of
Cython by Sage helps ensure better stability and quality.

 -- William

On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 8:50 AM David Roe  wrote:

> I support Matthias' initiative to join NumFocus.  Looking at the
> application , there are
> only a few todo items:
> * Describe the shared history with Cython and IPython.  This doesn't need
> to be extensive, but would be useful.
> * If we update the code of conduct in #37501
> , we should update the dates
> when the code of conduct was last modified.
>
> There is also discussion at the bottom about Sage's governance structure,
> but I don't think that's required for an affiliated project.
> David
>
> On Tue, Mar 5, 2024 at 3:37 PM Matthias Koeppe 
> wrote:
>
>> I don't think one needs to read between the lines. Per
>> https://jupyter.org/governance/linux-proposal.html#project-jupyter-s-needs
>> it's about funding goals in the $1-$2 million range + permanent staffing +
>> support for "operating" (which is described there as "legal/trademark,
>> marketing, fundraising, accounting, contracts, internships, events, dev
>> ops, etc.")
>> None of these seem relevant for our current effort to become a NumFOCUS
>> affiliated project.
>>
>> But as there is a sudden sign of life in this thread, let me point out
>> that I have an expanded version of the initial proposal draft:
>> https://github.com/sagemath/sage/wiki/NumFOCUS and I welcome discussion
>> here and collaborative editing in the wiki page.
>> I'll submit by the next target date (Apr 15).
>>
>> Matthias
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, March 5, 2024 at 11:28:38 AM UTC-8 kcrisman wrote:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, March 5, 2024 at 2:08:07 PM UTC-5 William Stein wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Related to NumFOCUS, this new proposal for Jupyter to restructure their
>>> relationship with NumFocus is possibly relevant:
>>>
>>> https://jupyter.org/governance/linux-proposal.html
>>>
>>>
>>> Interesting, and certainly relevant.  It's a little unclear to me why
>>> NumFOCUS is not appropriate for them, other than a vague reference to
>>> operations - can anyone read between the lines for those of us not as
>>> plugged into that world?
>>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "sage-devel" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/d5bf8367-6adf-463a-8d0c-d084e2d8756cn%40googlegroups.com
>> 
>> .
>>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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> 
> .
>


-- 
William (http://wstein.org)

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Application for NumFOCUS affiliation of SageMath

[David Roe]

I support Matthias' initiative to join NumFocus.  Looking at the application
, there are only a few todo
items:
* Describe the shared history with Cython and IPython.  This doesn't need
to be extensive, but would be useful.
* If we update the code of conduct in #37501
, we should update the dates
when the code of conduct was last modified.

There is also discussion at the bottom about Sage's governance structure,
but I don't think that's required for an affiliated project.
David

On Tue, Mar 5, 2024 at 3:37 PM Matthias Koeppe 
wrote:

> I don't think one needs to read between the lines. Per
> https://jupyter.org/governance/linux-proposal.html#project-jupyter-s-needs
> it's about funding goals in the $1-$2 million range + permanent staffing +
> support for "operating" (which is described there as "legal/trademark,
> marketing, fundraising, accounting, contracts, internships, events, dev
> ops, etc.")
> None of these seem relevant for our current effort to become a NumFOCUS
> affiliated project.
>
> But as there is a sudden sign of life in this thread, let me point out
> that I have an expanded version of the initial proposal draft:
> https://github.com/sagemath/sage/wiki/NumFOCUS and I welcome discussion
> here and collaborative editing in the wiki page.
> I'll submit by the next target date (Apr 15).
>
> Matthias
>
>
> On Tuesday, March 5, 2024 at 11:28:38 AM UTC-8 kcrisman wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, March 5, 2024 at 2:08:07 PM UTC-5 William Stein wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Related to NumFOCUS, this new proposal for Jupyter to restructure their
>> relationship with NumFocus is possibly relevant:
>>
>> https://jupyter.org/governance/linux-proposal.html
>>
>>
>> Interesting, and certainly relevant.  It's a little unclear to me why
>> NumFOCUS is not appropriate for them, other than a vague reference to
>> operations - can anyone read between the lines for those of us not as
>> plugged into that world?
>>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "sage-devel" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/d5bf8367-6adf-463a-8d0c-d084e2d8756cn%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Application for NumFOCUS affiliation of SageMath

[Matthias Koeppe]

I don't think one needs to read between the lines. Per 
https://jupyter.org/governance/linux-proposal.html#project-jupyter-s-needs 
it's about funding goals in the $1-$2 million range + permanent staffing + 
support for "operating" (which is described there as "legal/trademark, 
marketing, fundraising, accounting, contracts, internships, events, dev 
ops, etc.")
None of these seem relevant for our current effort to become a NumFOCUS 
affiliated project.

But as there is a sudden sign of life in this thread, let me point out that 
I have an expanded version of the initial proposal draft:
https://github.com/sagemath/sage/wiki/NumFOCUS and I welcome discussion 
here and collaborative editing in the wiki page. 
I'll submit by the next target date (Apr 15).

Matthias


On Tuesday, March 5, 2024 at 11:28:38 AM UTC-8 kcrisman wrote:

> On Tuesday, March 5, 2024 at 2:08:07 PM UTC-5 William Stein wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Related to NumFOCUS, this new proposal for Jupyter to restructure their 
> relationship with NumFocus is possibly relevant:
>
> https://jupyter.org/governance/linux-proposal.html
>
>
> Interesting, and certainly relevant.  It's a little unclear to me why 
> NumFOCUS is not appropriate for them, other than a vague reference to 
> operations - can anyone read between the lines for those of us not as 
> plugged into that world?
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Application for NumFOCUS affiliation of SageMath

[kcrisman]

On Tuesday, March 5, 2024 at 2:08:07 PM UTC-5 William Stein wrote:

Hi,

Related to NumFOCUS, this new proposal for Jupyter to restructure their 
relationship with NumFocus is possibly relevant:

https://jupyter.org/governance/linux-proposal.html


Interesting, and certainly relevant.  It's a little unclear to me why 
NumFOCUS is not appropriate for them, other than a vague reference to 
operations - can anyone read between the lines for those of us not as 
plugged into that world?

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Application for NumFOCUS affiliation of SageMath

[William Stein]

Hi,

Related to NumFOCUS, this new proposal for Jupyter to restructure their
relationship with NumFocus is possibly relevant:

https://jupyter.org/governance/linux-proposal.html

William

On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 12:59 PM Matthias Koeppe 
wrote:

> In case people are interested in a synchronous discussion of this topic,
> here's a poll to find suitable meeting times Feb 1–4.
> https://whenisgood.net/sage-numfocus
>
> On Monday, January 15, 2024 at 11:42:10 PM UTC-8 Matthias Koeppe wrote:
>
>> As I have not received sufficient feedback by today, I'll retarget to the
>> next deadline, Apr 15.
>> Comments and discussion please by January 31.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, January 13, 2024 at 5:55:29 PM UTC-8 Matthias Koeppe wrote:
>>
>>> Over the years, it has been suggested that our project seek affiliation
>>> with the NumFocus organization (https://numfocus.org/)
>>>
>>> *2016:* E.M. Bray asks in
>>> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/8-BfX8KxFuI/m/CQRmz_3vDQAJ:  Is
>>> there any particular objection about approaching NumFOCUS [...]? (there is
>>> no objection or any response for that matter)
>>>
>>> *2018: *E.M. Bray's 2018 sage-devel post (
>>> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/aY0GVqBwFkI/m/cTqfaBN5AQAJ)
>>> gives a great overview on benefits for us and the difference between
>>> "Affiliated projects" and "Sponsored projects"; in the same thread, D.V.
>>> Pasechnik reports having been put in charge of co-leading it by William,
>>> but notes his reservations about CoC; Jason Grout reports having given
>>> NumFOCUS people a heads-up.
>>>
>>> *2019:* V. Delecroix brings up NumFOCUS (
>>> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/sGFOYBeEq-Q/m/NUCfS2zhAQAJ),
>>> S. Lelievre points to the 2018 post, E.M. Bray follows up with a discussion
>>> of questions of governance.
>>>
>>> *2022:* D.V. Pasechnik notes that the NumFOCUS effort "appears to be
>>> stalled".
>>> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/G7qZkzjWDZU/m/MgrEqTqJAQAJ
>>>
>>> *As of today, 2024,* in my opinion, SageMath is clearly not able to
>>> meet the additional requirements of a NumFOCUS Sponsored Project (
>>> https://numfocus.org/projects-overview): "A transparent, publicly
>>> visible governance model" (), "A roadmap outlining high priority work
>>> areas" (although my modularization project provides
>>> https://github.com/sagemath/sage/issues/29705 provides a viable
>>> candidate for > 50% of it).
>>>
>>> *But we can easily apply to become a NumFOCUS Affiliated Project; it's
>>> 21 easy questions in a slightly awkward web form (*
>>> https://numfocus.typeform.com/to/VUPE35?typeform-source=numfocus.org)*.
>>> The next deadline is Monday January 15*, and I will turn in an
>>> application on behalf of the project unless I hear serious, qualified
>>> objections.
>>>
>>> Below are my draft responses to the 21 questions; any suggestions and
>>> corrections are very welcome.
>>>
>>> 
>>> Question 1
>>> Does your project have a contributor Code of Conduct?
>>> *Yes*
>>>
>>> Question 2
>>> What is the name of your project?
>>>
>>> *SageMath*
>>> Question 3
>>> Please provide the url of your project's (primary) repo:
>>>
>>> *https://github.com/sagemath/sage *
>>> Question 4
>>> Your project's website:
>>>
>>> *https://www.sagemath.org/ *
>>> Question 5
>>> Please provide a summary description of your project in a few sentences:
>>> *Comprehensive mathematical software system*
>>>
>>> Question 6
>>> Does your project have a logo?
>>>
>>> *Yes*
>>>
>>> Question 7
>>> Please upload a .svg file of your project's logo. A "square" format is
>>> best.
>>> *982721.png*
>>>
>>> Question 8
>>> Your project's Twitter handle or other social media handles/urls:
>>> *https://twitter.com/sagemath ,
>>> https://mathstodon.xyz/@sagemath , *
>>> *https://www.facebook.com/pages/Sage-Math/26593144945
>>> , *
>>> Question 9
>>> Why do you want your project to join NumFOCUS?
>>> *TBD*
>>>
>>> Question 10
>>> Are you applying for Fiscal Sponsorship or Affiliation? For more
>>> information, see https://numfocus.org/projects-overview
>>>
>>> *B. affiliation*
>>> Question 11
>>> How does your project relate to or integrate with the existing ecosystem
>>> of NumFOCUS tools?
>>> *Cython, CVXpy, igraph, IPython, Jupyter, Matplotlib, NetworkX, NumPy,
>>> SciPy, SymPy are dependencies of SageMath. Additionally, volunteers
>>> maintain conda-forge packaging of SageMath.*
>>>
>>> Question 12
>>> Describe how your project furthers the NumFOCUS mission:
>>> https://numfocus.org/community/mission
>>> *SageMath is mathematical software with an integration mission. *
>>>
>>> Question 13
>>> How many active contributors does your project currently have?
>>>
>>> *70*
>>> Question 14
>>> Any comments you’d like to make on the number of your active
>>> contributors:
>>>
>>> *as per
>>>