Re: [sane-devel] newbie
Hi, On 1/25/21 5:24 PM, Matt Zagrabelny via sane-devel wrote: I'm looking to get into scanning in the GNU/Linux world - I do not yet own a scanner. I know the SANE compatibility matrix exists [0], but I am hoping for some anecdotal recommendations. If you a looking for office-quality scanner that will work without any trouble with Linux, the best choice would be a network scanner or MFP, that supports "driverless" scanning using eSCL (Apple Airprint/Airscan) or WSD protocols. The incomplete and constantly growing list of tested devices can be found here: https://github.com/alexpevzner/sane-airscan -- Wishes, Alexander Pevzner (p...@apevzner.com)
Re: [sane-devel] newbie
Hello again, Let us know some more of your requirements, such as use case, budget, etc, and I'll try to offer some more anecdotes (if I have any). I'm mostly interested in scanning photos, with a little bit of document scanning. The price range that I'm looking at is somewhat fluid. I don't purchase hardware very often, thus I don't feel too bad if I exceed whatever budget I've made up. I think the "standard" advice for prints is to get a flatbed with the highest optical resolution you can afford and the fastest interface bus (USB 3, etc). You'll want to look at the scan times at the highest resolution, rather than the fastest ones quoted or the ones at 300dpi which are mostly aimed at document scanning. This site: https://www.scantips.com/ (linked somewhere from the first set of pages I mentioned in the previous email) has a good overlap between scanning and photography. The examples tend to use Windows software, but the principles are all the same. I've got an absolutely ancient HP scanner (with USB and Fast SCSI interfaces) that I picked up on eBay for £4.99 about 10 years ago (and it was ancient then). It's really handy for detailed colour work and stuff that doesn't fit in the iX500 document feeder. ...but it's *really* slow and that puts me off using it. I have a box on top of it and when it' full, I scan everything in. I use it over USB and it can't even do a full page at 300dpi without filling its buffer and therefore having to pause, painfully reverse, and then continue at least twice. Perhaps it'd be better if I used the SCSI interface but I don't have the correct cable at the moment. All that to say: speed is really important. The scans are great, and need a lot less tweaking than the SnapScan but it's just not as convenient to use. ...and therefore it gets used a lot less. For negatives you can get dedicated negative scanners and negative holders for flatbed units. Let me know if you find a good one that's fast. When I last played with them (admittedly nearly 20 years ago) they were painfully slow, even with a good (for the time) SCSI interface. Scanning a whole roll of film (36 frames) would take over half an hour. Thanks again for sharing your scanning story with me. :-) Best wishes, @ndy -- andy...@ashurst.eu.org http://www.ashurst.eu.org/ 0x7EBA75FF
Re: [sane-devel] newbie
Hi, Regarding the colors of the iX500, they are not strictly raw data. The scanner self-calibrates, which removes most of the high frequency noise. But, the default brightness and contrast values may still need some manual tweaking. It is also possible that the windows software does some further enhancement, which is not done in the sane backend. Thanks allan! The calibration is really noticable, especially if there's any dust on the glass. There's always been a slightly lighter stripe on the back sensor that won't seem to go away and it's easy to see the bits of the paper that are held slightly closer to the head by the rollers. Fixing the gamma gets rid of most of it and tweaking the white point gets rid of the rest. ...but it seems to be almost a bit's worth of data in each channel. I've never used the Windows software; I just took the PNM files, converted them to PNG, verified they looked exactly the same as the PNMs in Gimp on Linux and then transfered the PNGs to Windows where I looked at them with the built-in viewer. I guess the Windows viewer does its own gamma correction or something? Or perhaps it's the other way around? Best wishes, @ndy -- andy...@ashurst.eu.org http://www.ashurst.eu.org/ 0x7EBA75FF
Re: [sane-devel] newbie
Hi Andy, Thanks for the reply. On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 10:36 AM Andy Bennett wrote: [...] > I have a Fujitsu ScanSnap iX500 and I'm very please with it. > > However... > Cool. > > I can't speak to this issue particularly, but the iX500 has colour issues > of its own. > > [...] That's a great example of real life hardware interaction. > Also, > > The scanner is a duplex unit and therefore has a scanning head and a > bright > light on both sides of the page. This means that the exact colour > reproduction varies greatly with the thickness of the paper. > > I have a stock set of colour curves that I use to correct things to how I > like them. > Okay. Good to know. [...] When I first got the scanner I read this guide: > http://www.samhallas.co.uk/repository/scanning.htm and learnt a lot. > > I'll look into it. [...] > What you'll need to go alongside SANE will depend a lot on what you want > to > use the scanner for. > For example, documents might benefit from OCR (optical character > recognition). Photos might benefit from a full Photoshop style package. > > > > Let us know some more of your requirements, such as use case, budget, etc, > and I'll try to offer some more anecdotes (if I have any). > I'm mostly interested in scanning photos, with a little bit of document scanning. The price range that I'm looking at is somewhat fluid. I don't purchase hardware very often, thus I don't feel too bad if I exceed whatever budget I've made up. Thanks again for sharing your scanning story with me. Cheers, -m
Re: [sane-devel] newbie
Regarding the colors of the iX500, they are not strictly raw data. The scanner self-calibrates, which removes most of the high frequency noise. But, the default brightness and contrast values may still need some manual tweaking. It is also possible that the windows software does some further enhancement, which is not done in the sane backend. allan On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 11:36 AM Andy Bennett wrote: > > Hi, > > > I'm looking to get into scanning in the GNU/Linux world - I do > > not yet own a scanner. I know the SANE compatibility matrix > > exists [0], but I am hoping for some anecdotal recommendations. > > Welcome! > > > > What scanners are people using and how happy are you with your > > scanner and your SANE front-end? > > I have a Fujitsu ScanSnap iX500 and I'm very please with it. > > However... > > > > Also, I read a short blog post [1] about the author's scanner > > yielding different results under Windows and GNU/Linux. The > > author claims that the Windows driver can have better color > > accuracy. Does anyone have any commentary about such notions? > > > [1] https://www.digitaltidying.com/dont-use-linux-to-scan-photographs/ > > I can't speak to this issue particularly, but the iX500 has colour issues > of its own. > > I scan to pnm files with the included "scanimage" backend. > > I then have my own toolchain that does the things I want to these files. > > > AFAICT, the data that ends up in the pnm files is the raw data from the > scanning head. i.e. its. plain RGB intensity values. > > On the one hand, this is great because getting the raw data leaves me with > the most options. > > On the other hand, it's a pain. > > These files look terrible on Linux. Weirdly, the exact same files look fine > under Windows. > > > If I correct the files with pnmgamma, applying the sRGB or CIE profiles > then they look fine. > > > Also, > > The scanner is a duplex unit and therefore has a scanning head and a bright > light on both sides of the page. This means that the exact colour > reproduction varies greatly with the thickness of the paper. > > I have a stock set of colour curves that I use to correct things to how I > like them. > > > ...but in general, all colour is lies, and faithful or accurate conversion > between CMYK (used for print) and RGB (used for screen) is particularly > difficult. > > > Perhaps if you use one of the more featureful SANE frontends then it does a > lot of this stuff for you, but I was keen to make my own toolchain. > > > When I first got the scanner I read this guide: > http://www.samhallas.co.uk/repository/scanning.htm and learnt a lot. > > > > Getting passable scans from any toolkit (Windows or Linux) is fairly > straightforward. Getting "stunning" scans is always an art, similar to > digital photo manipulation. > > > > What you'll need to go alongside SANE will depend a lot on what you want to > use the scanner for. > For example, documents might benefit from OCR (optical character > recognition). Photos might benefit from a full Photoshop style package. > > > > Let us know some more of your requirements, such as use case, budget, etc, > and I'll try to offer some more anecdotes (if I have any). > > > > > Best wishes, > @ndy > > -- > andy...@ashurst.eu.org > http://www.ashurst.eu.org/ > 0x7EBA75FF > -- "well, I stand up next to a mountain- and I chop it down with the edge of my hand"
Re: [sane-devel] newbie
Hi Ralph! On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 10:12 AM Ralph Little wrote: [...] > If you have specific questions as to how to get up to speed, you can ask > them here and someone will chime in. > Thank you for the in depth summary of the project and review of the current state of hardware - and the encouragement for me to jump in and contribute! :) Hopefully after I get a scanner I can give back, too. Cheers, -m
Re: [sane-devel] newbie
Hi Allan, Thanks for the reply. Price range? I suppose it would be nice to get a scanner for under $300, but the range can slide. What kind? I'd like to support companies that support free software. I'd like to get accurate scans of photos. Other than that, I'm not sure the best models to look at. Cheers, -m On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 10:16 AM m. allan noah wrote: > You need to tell us what kind of scanner you are looking for, and a > general price range. > > allan > > On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 9:41 AM Matt Zagrabelny via sane-devel > wrote: > > > > Greetings SANE folks, > > > > I'm looking to get into scanning in the GNU/Linux world - I do not yet > own a scanner. I know the SANE compatibility matrix exists [0], but I am > hoping for some anecdotal recommendations. > > > > What scanners are people using and how happy are you with your scanner > and your SANE front-end? > > > > Also, I read a short blog post [1] about the author's scanner yielding > different results under Windows and GNU/Linux. The author claims that the > Windows driver can have better color accuracy. Does anyone have any > commentary about such notions? > > > > Thanks for helping me get my feet wet. > > > > Cheers, > > > > -m > > > > [0] http://www.sane-project.org/sane-supported-devices.html > > [1] https://www.digitaltidying.com/dont-use-linux-to-scan-photographs/ > > > > -- > "well, I stand up next to a mountain- and I chop it down with the edge > of my hand" >
Re: [sane-devel] newbie
Hi, I'm looking to get into scanning in the GNU/Linux world - I do not yet own a scanner. I know the SANE compatibility matrix exists [0], but I am hoping for some anecdotal recommendations. Welcome! What scanners are people using and how happy are you with your scanner and your SANE front-end? I have a Fujitsu ScanSnap iX500 and I'm very please with it. However... Also, I read a short blog post [1] about the author's scanner yielding different results under Windows and GNU/Linux. The author claims that the Windows driver can have better color accuracy. Does anyone have any commentary about such notions? [1] https://www.digitaltidying.com/dont-use-linux-to-scan-photographs/ I can't speak to this issue particularly, but the iX500 has colour issues of its own. I scan to pnm files with the included "scanimage" backend. I then have my own toolchain that does the things I want to these files. AFAICT, the data that ends up in the pnm files is the raw data from the scanning head. i.e. its. plain RGB intensity values. On the one hand, this is great because getting the raw data leaves me with the most options. On the other hand, it's a pain. These files look terrible on Linux. Weirdly, the exact same files look fine under Windows. If I correct the files with pnmgamma, applying the sRGB or CIE profiles then they look fine. Also, The scanner is a duplex unit and therefore has a scanning head and a bright light on both sides of the page. This means that the exact colour reproduction varies greatly with the thickness of the paper. I have a stock set of colour curves that I use to correct things to how I like them. ...but in general, all colour is lies, and faithful or accurate conversion between CMYK (used for print) and RGB (used for screen) is particularly difficult. Perhaps if you use one of the more featureful SANE frontends then it does a lot of this stuff for you, but I was keen to make my own toolchain. When I first got the scanner I read this guide: http://www.samhallas.co.uk/repository/scanning.htm and learnt a lot. Getting passable scans from any toolkit (Windows or Linux) is fairly straightforward. Getting "stunning" scans is always an art, similar to digital photo manipulation. What you'll need to go alongside SANE will depend a lot on what you want to use the scanner for. For example, documents might benefit from OCR (optical character recognition). Photos might benefit from a full Photoshop style package. Let us know some more of your requirements, such as use case, budget, etc, and I'll try to offer some more anecdotes (if I have any). Best wishes, @ndy -- andy...@ashurst.eu.org http://www.ashurst.eu.org/ 0x7EBA75FF
Re: [sane-devel] newbie
Hi, On 2021-01-25 8:15 a.m., m. allan noah wrote: > You need to tell us what kind of scanner you are looking for, and a > general price range. > Hah, my earlier response was based on the assumption that Matt wanted to contribute to the project. I read the original request again and I see that I was incorrect! Much of it might be useful though regardless. :D Cheers, Ralph
Re: [sane-devel] newbie
You need to tell us what kind of scanner you are looking for, and a general price range. allan On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 9:41 AM Matt Zagrabelny via sane-devel wrote: > > Greetings SANE folks, > > I'm looking to get into scanning in the GNU/Linux world - I do not yet own a > scanner. I know the SANE compatibility matrix exists [0], but I am hoping for > some anecdotal recommendations. > > What scanners are people using and how happy are you with your scanner and > your SANE front-end? > > Also, I read a short blog post [1] about the author's scanner yielding > different results under Windows and GNU/Linux. The author claims that the > Windows driver can have better color accuracy. Does anyone have any > commentary about such notions? > > Thanks for helping me get my feet wet. > > Cheers, > > -m > > [0] http://www.sane-project.org/sane-supported-devices.html > [1] https://www.digitaltidying.com/dont-use-linux-to-scan-photographs/ -- "well, I stand up next to a mountain- and I chop it down with the edge of my hand"
Re: [sane-devel] newbie
Hi, On 2021-01-25 6:24 a.m., Matt Zagrabelny via sane-devel wrote: > Greetings SANE folks, > > I'm looking to get into scanning in the GNU/Linux world - I do not yet > own a scanner. I know the SANE compatibility matrix exists [0], but I > am hoping for some anecdotal recommendations. > > What scanners are people using and how happy are you with your scanner > and your SANE front-end? The users of SANE are a pretty mixed bag. The current state of play is that many new scanning devices are moving to a small number of related protocols that are not open but are somewhat standard lead by moves by Apple. This is good news for Linux scanning although it would be cool if the standards were fully open. These protocols are supported by the sane-escl and sane-airscan backends. Also, we do have a fairly large number of users that are using the rather excellent and compact LiDE scanners from Canon. These are mainly supported by the genesys backend (although some are not Genesys based) which has recently been rewritten and for which there remain some wrinkles to iron out. The other massive body of users are for Canon's multifunction PIXMA devices which are cheap and for the most part support some form of their BJNP or MFNP protocols, although they are now moving to Apple's protocols for new machines (at least for network scanning at any rate). There is a huge number of these devices out there and most are supported. Some are problematic though due to differences in their implementations (some return JPEG instead of raw image data for instance). > > Also, I read a short blog post [1] about the author's scanner yielding > different results under Windows and GNU/Linux. The author claims that > the Windows driver can have better color accuracy. Does anyone have > any commentary about such notions? > There are a number of issues to bear in mind: 1. Many scanners are supported due to reverse engineering since their protocols are secret, and each implementation of that protocol may have subtle variations in the target hardware. This is a time-consuming and often imprecise (and incomplete) process. 2. Often a lot of supported features are actually in the driver or supplied support software and not a feature of the device itself. The SANE project is largely involved in supporting the hardware. These additional features are therefore not revealed by the hardware support provided by SANE, although some backend authors try to extend that by implementing some features in the backend. It is a mixed bag. Some of this may be related to the problems in the referenced article. I'm not sure. 3. Support for some scanners are through their untested familial relationship to scanners that HAVE been tested. I have discovered a number of scanners that purport to be supported but were clearly not tested to any great degree in practice. So we sometimes have queries about "supported" scanners that are clearly not supported at all. 4. As an extension to 3. above, we do find that some scanners that were supported are broken due to past refactoring work. It is a recurring problem that SANE authors don't often have access to the full gamut of supported hardware to perform regression testing. Of note, we have a recurring JPEG issue in the xerox_mfp backend, Genesys devices supported by the genesys backend, and recently an issue in the avision backend which is now fixed. 5. Some manufacturers DO support Linux (notably HP although not their earlier flatbed scanners and fairly completely and their drivers are open source.) They are not supported by the SANE project but the third party drivers use the SANE API. > Thanks for helping me get my feet wet. There is always a need for contributors for doc, reverse engineering, maintenance etc. You should pick a topic that interests you and for which you believe you have sufficient skill. In order to get into the coding side, I would certainly suggest getting something cheap (or free if Thrift stores/Craigslist/Gumtree etc are available to you). You would be surprised what you can pick up for next to nothing if you are patient. If you have specific questions as to how to get up to speed, you can ask them here and someone will chime in. > > Cheers, > > -m > > [0] http://www.sane-project.org/sane-supported-devices.html > [1] https://www.digitaltidying.com/dont-use-linux-to-scan-photographs/
[sane-devel] newbie
Greetings SANE folks, I'm looking to get into scanning in the GNU/Linux world - I do not yet own a scanner. I know the SANE compatibility matrix exists [0], but I am hoping for some anecdotal recommendations. What scanners are people using and how happy are you with your scanner and your SANE front-end? Also, I read a short blog post [1] about the author's scanner yielding different results under Windows and GNU/Linux. The author claims that the Windows driver can have better color accuracy. Does anyone have any commentary about such notions? Thanks for helping me get my feet wet. Cheers, -m [0] http://www.sane-project.org/sane-supported-devices.html [1] https://www.digitaltidying.com/dont-use-linux-to-scan-photographs/
