from:""

it could be done in the backend, but it would be easier to use an
external program to do it, something from the netpbm package will do
it...

allan

On 5/25/08, Guillaume guillcdv at gmail.com wrote:
 m. allan noah a ?crit :

  why did you pick sane 1.0.12, is that the version that was on your last
 os?
 
 
  I just picked the not too old one which would compile on my system to see
 if it would make any difference.

  After some web searching here is the ubuntu 7.10 version

 /pool/main/s/sane-backends/sane-backends_1.0.19~cvs20070505-3ubuntu2.dsc
 /pool/main/s/sane-backends/sane-backends_1.0.19~cvs20070505-3ubuntu2.diff.gz
 /pool/main/s/sane-backends/sane-backends_1.0.19~cvs20070505.orig.tar.gz

  and for ubuntu 7.04:
 /pool/main/s/sane-backends/sane-backends_1.0.18-3ubuntu1.dsc
 /pool/main/s/sane-backends/sane-backends_1.0.18-3ubuntu1.diff.gz
 /pool/main/s/sane-backends/sane-backends_1.0.18.orig.tar.gz
  /pool/main/x/xsane/xsane_0.99+0.991-1ubuntu2.dsc
  /pool/main/x/xsane/xsane_0.99+0.991-1ubuntu2.diff.gz
  /pool/main/x/xsane/xsane_0.99+0.991.orig.tar.gz

  In all cases, the gray scale option is not available. I may have dreamed of
 it then. Sorry for the trouble.

  The question is now : is it possible to add the grayscale option to the
 front-ends for the HP5400 driver ? I'm scanning a lot of bank statements and
 color is not a good idea


  Thanks.
  Guillaume




  allan
 
  On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 2:05 PM, Guillaume guillcdv at gmail.com wrote:
 
 
   m. allan noah a ?crit :
  
  
there have been no recent changes to the hp5400 backend. can you
please verify that the grayscale option did appear in prior versions
of sane?
   
allan
   
   
   
   Hi,
   to answer this properly I'm trying to rebuild an old version
   Here is the script I'm using:
  
   #!/bin/sh
   cd ~/Download
   tar xf sane-backends-1.0.12.tar.gz
   tar xf sane-frontends-1.0.12.tar.gz
  
   rm -rf $HOME/sane
   mkdir -p $HOME/sane
  
   export PATH=$HOME/sane/bin:$PATH
   export
 LD_LIBRARY_PATH=$HOME/sane/lib:$HOME/sane/lib/sane
   export LD_RUN_PATH=/home/guill/sane/lib
  
   cd sane-backends-1.0.12
   make distclean
   ./configure --prefix $HOME/sane
   make  make install
  
   cd ..
   cd sane-frontends-1.0.12
   export PATH=$HOME/sane/bin:$PATH
   export
 LD_LIBRARY_PATH=$HOME/sane/lib:$HOME/sane/lib/sane
   export LD_RUN_PATH=/home/guill/sane/lib
  
   make distclean
   ./configure --prefix $HOME/sane
   make  make install
  
   sane-find-scanner
  
  
   runs fine until the sane-find-scanner which is unable to find my scanner
 :
   guill at Salsa:~/Download$ lsusb
   Bus 005 Device 001: ID : Bus 004 Device 001: ID : Bus
 003
   Device 001: ID : Bus 002 Device 002: ID 03f0:1105
 Hewlett-Packard
   ScanJet 5470c
   Bus 002 Device 001: ID : Bus 001 Device 005: ID 05a9:4519
 OmniVision
   Technologies, Inc.
   Bus 001 Device 004: ID 046d:c00e Logitech, Inc. M-BJ69 Optical Wheel
 Mouse
   Bus 001 Device 001: ID : guill at Salsa:~/Download$ scanimage -L
  
   No scanners were identified. If you were expecting something different,
   check that the scanner is plugged in, turned on and detected by the
   sane-find-scanner tool (if appropriate). Please read the documentation
   which came with this software (README, FAQ, manpages).
   guill at Salsa:~/Download$ scanimage -V
   scanimage (sane-backends) 1.0.12; backend version 1.0.12
  
   whereas the default installation gives
   guill at Salsa:~$ scanimage -L
   device `hp5400:libusb:002:002' is a Hewlett-Packard HP54xx Flatbed
 Scanner
   flatbed scanner
   guill at Salsa:~$ scanimage -V
   scanimage (sane-backends) 1.0.19; backend version 1.0.19
  
   I'm doing something wrong but I can't figure it out. Any clue so that I
 can
   investigate further for you ?
   Thanks
   Guillaume
  
   --
   depuis Ubuntu 8.04 GNU/Linux
  
  
  
  
 
 
 
 
 


  --
  depuis Ubuntu 8.04 GNU/Linux




-- 
The truth is an offense, but not a sin

[sane-devel] Question on scanimage -f

it would seem that a better long-term choice would be to correct
scanimage to output a \n after each scanner?

allan

On 5/25/08, Dieter Jurzitza dieter.jurzitza at t-online.de wrote:
 Dear Abel, dear Listmembers,
  thanks very much, this did the trick! I would never have thought about doing
  it this way, though ;-)

 Take care



  Dieter Jurzitza


  --
  ---

|
 \
  /\_/\   |
 | ~x~ |/-\   /
  \   /-   \_/
   ^^__   _/  _     /
   ??__ \- \_/ |  |/|  |
   ||  || _| _|_| _|

  if you really want to see the pictures above - use some font
  with constant spacing like courier! :-)

 ---Am Sonntag, 25. Mai
  2008 02:00:23 schrieb abel deuring:

  On 23.05.2008 20:45, Dieter Jurzitza wrote:
Dear listmembers,
having two scanners attached to my system I get calling scanimage -L

 **

  Simply write something like
  
   scanimage -f %i %d
   

 *


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[sane-devel] Utlizing Scan Button on a Fujitsu 5120C

On 5/24/08, Ron Joffe ron.joffe at gmail.com wrote:
 I am looking to see if functionality has been added to utilize the scan
  button on an ADF scanner? I have read a few posts back in '04 in the
  archives, and am wondering if any progress has been made.

the fujitsu backend has supported all buttons and sensors of the
scanner since sane 1.0.18. the problem is that you need a daemon
running on the machine to load and monitor the backend. there is one
in experimental branch of sane cvs, but you will likely have to tune
the code to make it call your desired scanning program.

another option might be a hal addon, which has been discussed on this
list lately, but i dont know the status of that project.

allan
-- 
The truth is an offense, but not a sin

[sane-devel] CanoScan LiDE90 support

there has been much work on this by Guillaume Gastebois and Pierre. it
sounds like the backend is not working well enough for general use
yet, but things are looking up?

allan

On 5/24/08, silvius chis silvanus2005 at gmail.com wrote:
 I want to ask if anyone can tell me if there is any hope to have
  support in sane for this model of scanner. Thanks in advance.


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[sane-devel] SANE 1.1.0 Release discussion

2008-05-25 Thread JKD

El Wednesday 21 May 2008 20:50:46 m. allan noah escribi?:

 5. Several new well-known options for buttons and sensors. Backends
 should use the closest one to the meaning of the label on the scanner
 or the button's use in the manufacturer's software. Backends may also
 use a different name if no suitable one is found, or button1, etc for
 unlabeled buttons

 well-known buttons:
 scan, email, fax, copy, pdf, cancel

Some scanners have different buttons to perform a normal scan and  
negative/slide scans. May be another well-kown button name could be something 
like  scan_film

Jonathan

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[sane-devel] SANE 1.1.0 Release discussion

or perhaps scan2 or altscan?

allan

On 5/25/08, JKD jkdsoft at gmail.com wrote:
 El Wednesday 21 May 2008 20:50:46 m. allan noah escribi?:


   5. Several new well-known options for buttons and sensors. Backends
   should use the closest one to the meaning of the label on the scanner
   or the button's use in the manufacturer's software. Backends may also
   use a different name if no suitable one is found, or button1, etc for
   unlabeled buttons
  
   well-known buttons:
   scan, email, fax, copy, pdf, cancel


 Some scanners have different buttons to perform a normal scan and
  negative/slide scans. May be another well-kown button name could be something
  like  scan_film

  Jonathan


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[sane-devel] SANE 1.1.0 Release discussion

2008-05-26 Thread Étienne Bersac

Hi,

 or perhaps scan2 or altscan?

No ! you need to keep to semantic ! altscan or scan is not
selfexplanatory. Please prefer film or scan-film.

We should also state whether we should use _ or - in option name. I
guess that the standard is lowercase + hyphen + digit.

?tienne.

[sane-devel] SANE 1.1.0 Release discussion

Hi,

some scanners even have simplex / duplex buttons or even fine grained
to up/down arrows to setup resolution, color mode etc. (i.g. the
popular HP 7400).

In the Avision backend I know use a string option to spit out
a message the program can parse.

Going with the current trend, maybe a xml string should be used
to describe whatever is setup on the device?

Yours,

m. allan noah wrote:
 or perhaps scan2 or altscan?
 
 allan
 
 On 5/25/08, JKD jkdsoft at gmail.com wrote:
 El Wednesday 21 May 2008 20:50:46 m. allan noah escribi?:


   5. Several new well-known options for buttons and sensors. Backends
   should use the closest one to the meaning of the label on the scanner
   or the button's use in the manufacturer's software. Backends may also
   use a different name if no suitable one is found, or button1, etc for
   unlabeled buttons
  
   well-known buttons:
   scan, email, fax, copy, pdf, cancel


 Some scanners have different buttons to perform a normal scan and
  negative/slide scans. May be another well-kown button name could be 
 something
  like  scan_film

  Jonathan


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-- 
   Ren? Rebe - ExactCODE GmbH - Europe, Germany, Berlin
   Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Susanne Klaus, Ren? Rebe
   Sitz: Berlin, Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 105 123 B
   USt-IdNr.: DE251602478
   http://exactcode.de | http://t2-project.org | http://rene.rebe.name

[sane-devel] Problem with avision and HP ScanJet 8250 on Mac OS X 10.5.2

Dear David,

I do not have a device for testing.

The SANE CVS might or might not work better. If it does not work
better on your device you could donate a device for testing and
it should be fixable quickly.

Alternative, if you know  C, you could try and debug the problem.

Yours,

-- 
   Ren? Rebe - ExactCODE GmbH - Europe, Germany, Berlin
   Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Susanne Klaus, Ren? Rebe
   Sitz: Berlin, Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 105 123 B
   USt-IdNr.: DE251602478
   http://exactcode.de | http://t2-project.org | http://rene.rebe.name

[sane-devel] SANE 1.1.0 Release discussion

Hi Allan,

can you explain the paper width option to me? Why can we
not simply use br x/y?

Actually I got a Fujitsu scanner here and find the duplicate
paper width option annoying at best.

Aside the already mentioned button to use some more extend-able
XML encoding instead of a hardcoded set, I wonder if it is
good to expose sensors, frontends would rarely (if ever?) want
to check for them explicitly and the backend must check the
sensors before or during scan to generate proper errors
accordingly anyway.

Yours,

m. allan noah wrote:
 ok guys- take 3:
 
 Six general points for sane 1.1.x:
  - no changes to function calls
  - no changes to structures
  - 1.0 backends forward compatible with 1.1
  - improve backend consistency
  - support more advanced scanners
  - improve cooperation with modern system services
 
 Specific proposals:
 
 1. Consistent, translatable option groups:
 
 'Standard' = source, mode, resolution
 'Geometry' = x/y and paper size params
 'Enhancement' = bright/gamma/contrast/thresh, rif, halftone, etc
 'Advanced' = compression, calibration, feed controls, etc
 'Sensors' = an option for every hardware button or sensor
 
 2. Two new well-known options for ADF paper alignment: page-width and
 page-height
 
 3. Two new SANE_STATUS values: HW_LOCKED and WARMING_UP
 
 4. Nine new SANE_FRAME values: TEXT, JPEG, G31D, G32D, G42D, IR, RGBI,
 GRAYI, and XML
 
 5. Several new well-known options for buttons and sensors. Backends
 should use the closest one to the meaning of the label on the scanner
 or the button's use in the manufacturer's software. Backends may also
 use a different name if no suitable one is found, or button1, etc for
 unlabeled buttons
 
 well-known buttons:
 scan, email, fax, copy, pdf, cancel
 
 well-known sensors:
 page-loaded, cover-open
 
 6. Clarify standard text for SANE_CAP_HARD_SELECT to indicate it
 should be used for polling the current state of hardware sensors and
 buttons, with a refresh interval = 1 sec.
 
 7. New DBGBM macro for bitmask debugging output (bit # listed below):
 
 1 DBG_LVL_ERROR  (errors only)
 2 DBG_LVL_FUNC   (function tracing 'enter xxx()' or 'exit xxx()')
 3 DBG_LVL_DETAIL ('trying action X' or 'action succeeded' etc)
 4 DBG_LVL_OPTION (any sane_option parsing code)
 5 DBG_LVL_CALIB  (calibration info)
 6 DBG_LVL_IMAGE  (dump image data read from scanner)
 7 DBG_LVL_DATA   (dump data packets read from scanner, other than
 image or cal?)
 8 DBG_LVL_FILE   (write internal data files to disk from within backend?)
 
 8. Add common configuration reading function in sanei_* so that new or
 maintained backends can benefit from it. Wholesale config file restructuring?
 
 9. Require backends to always accept the sanei device name as an
 alternative to the backend generated name.
 
 The first 5 are already in SANE CVS, and the fujitsu backend is
 updated to use them. I'd like to get some more comment on the rest
 before we more forward. Particularly on #8, if your backend uses a
 complex config file format, we need to hear from you...
 
 Timetable is still feature freeze around July 4th, and release close
 to July 30th.
 
 Comments welcome-
 
 allan



-- 
   Ren? Rebe - ExactCODE GmbH - Europe, Germany, Berlin
   Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Susanne Klaus, Ren? Rebe
   Sitz: Berlin, Amtsgericht Charlottenburg HRB 105 123 B
   USt-IdNr.: DE251602478
   http://exactcode.de | http://t2-project.org | http://rene.rebe.name

[sane-devel] SANE 1.1.0 Release discussion

On 5/26/08, ?tienne Bersac bersace03 at gmail.com wrote:
 Hi,


   or perhaps scan2 or altscan?


 No ! you need to keep to semantic ! altscan or scan is not
  selfexplanatory. Please prefer film or scan-film.

i doubt any frontend is going to code distinct support for such a
unique button, but we can craft the standard to state than any
alternate buttons should be named 'scan-xxx' or some such. however, we
are shooting for a list of common names, not everything.


  We should also state whether we should use _ or - in option name. I
  guess that the standard is lowercase + hyphen + digit.


you are correct about the standard.

allan
-- 
The truth is an offense, but not a sin

[sane-devel] SANE 1.1.0 Release discussion

On 5/26/08, Ren? Rebe rene at exactcode.de wrote:
 Hi,

  some scanners even have simplex / duplex buttons or even fine grained
  to up/down arrows to setup resolution, color mode etc. (i.g. the
  popular HP 7400).

right- but what is the frontend going to do with that, read the user's
setting, then turn the data back around and set the resolution and
duplex options? it seems that would be better done in the backend
itself.


  In the Avision backend I know use a string option to spit out
  a message the program can parse.

  Going with the current trend, maybe a xml string should be used
  to describe whatever is setup on the device?

i see no point in this, however, it does point to an interesting
problem. all these buttons are now semantically named, so you wont be
able to have one called 'resolution', since you already have an option
with that name. should we prefix these with 'button-' or some such?

allan
-- 
The truth is an offense, but not a sin

[sane-devel] SANE 1.1.0 Release discussion

sorry rene- this should have gone to list...

On 5/26/08, m. allan noah kitno455 at gmail.com wrote:
 On 5/26/08, Ren? Rebe rene at exactcode.de wrote:

  Hi Allan,
  
can you explain the paper width option to me? Why can we
not simply use br x/y?
  
Actually I got a Fujitsu scanner here and find the duplicate
paper width option annoying at best.


 it is not duplicate. it is used by the backend to properly center the
  users x/y params to the moving paper guides. otherwise, if they want
  to scan an entire sheet of A5, they have to set the tl_x/y to some
  weird value that they have to calculate from the scanner's maximum
  width.
  how do you handle this in avision now?


  
Aside the already mentioned button to use some more extend-able
XML encoding instead of a hardcoded set, I wonder if it is
good to expose sensors, frontends would rarely (if ever?) want
to check for them explicitly and the backend must check the
sensors before or during scan to generate proper errors
accordingly anyway.


 don't assume that sensors only indicate errors. the paper-in signal is
  quite useful in high volume apps- the front-end can start scanning
  immediately.

  xml does not fix this problem, cause we would still have to define a
  schema so that front-ends could interpret it. so, lets just avoid the
  xml dependency.


  allan
  --
  The truth is an offense, but not a sin



-- 
The truth is an offense, but not a sin

[sane-devel] SANE 1.1.0 Release discussion

2008-05-26 Thread Étienne Bersac

Hi,

 but what is the frontend going to do with that, read the user's
 setting, then turn the data back around and set the resolution and
 duplex options? it seems that would be better done in the backend
 itself.?

But the frontend should be aware that the device has changed some value,
at least in order to update UI. I think that simply adding cap
HARD_SELECT should be enough to tell the frontend : poll this if you
want to know when the user change the value of this option from the
device.

Regards,
?tienne.

[sane-devel] SANE 1.1.0 Release discussion

On 5/26/08, ?tienne Bersac bersace03 at gmail.com wrote:
 Hi,


   but what is the frontend going to do with that, read the user's
   setting, then turn the data back around and set the resolution and
   duplex options? it seems that would be better done in the backend

  itself.?

  But the frontend should be aware that the device has changed some value,
  at least in order to update UI. I think that simply adding cap
  HARD_SELECT should be enough to tell the frontend : poll this if you
  want to know when the user change the value of this option from the
  device.

ahh, but the option cannot be both HARD and SOFT_SELECT at the same
time. for this very reason, i dont actually use the duplex button on
the older fujitsu machines to change the duplex setting in the
backend.

allan
-- 
The truth is an offense, but not a sin

[sane-devel] SANE 1.1.0 Release discussion

Hi,

ps: this time to the list as well :-)

m. allan noah wrote:
 On 5/26/08, Ren? Rebe rene at exactcode.de wrote:
 Hi Allan,

  can you explain the paper width option to me? Why can we
  not simply use br x/y?

  Actually I got a Fujitsu scanner here and find the duplicate
  paper width option annoying at best.
 
 it is not duplicate. it is used by the backend to properly center the
 users x/y params to the moving paper guides. otherwise, if they want
 to scan an entire sheet of A5, they have to set the tl_x/y to some
 weird value that they have to calculate from the scanner's maximum
 width.
 how do you handle this in avision now?

not at all, I consider this a front end job, it also avoids the simple
arithmetic in every backend. The page size then also appears to indirectly
change the maximal scan area? I find this way more complex than just allow
frontends to center the scan area on the maximal area.

  Aside the already mentioned button to use some more extend-able
  XML encoding instead of a hardcoded set, I wonder if it is
  good to expose sensors, frontends would rarely (if ever?) want
  to check for them explicitly and the backend must check the
  sensors before or during scan to generate proper errors
  accordingly anyway.
 
 don't assume that sensors only indicate errors. the paper-in signal is
 quite useful in high volume apps- the front-end can start scanning
 immediately.

Ah ok, media presense is indeed useful, granted. One could also
start scaning on cover close, indeed. I was just afraid on exposing
random sensors (home, etc.) without a real need.

 xml does not fix this problem, cause we would still have to define a
 schema so that front-ends could interpret it. so, lets just avoid the
 xml dependency.

Still, many Avisions have Simplex / Duplex buttons, and some, like the
HP 7400, allow resolution, color mode, and number of copies to be
set on the device. How would you like to handle those then (and yes,
the Avision backend does not export the 7400 options, yet, as I had
no idea, beside a pre-formated  string message, how to expose them)?

The problem with letting some buttons change the backend internal
state configuration (resolution et al.) and some be exposed to the
frontend (scan, fax, print) exposes two problems: One the frontend
UI (if any) does not update when the user changes scanner values,
and second may yield to scans with other parameters than the frontend
believed to scan with. Having one flow of hardware notifications
might be more structured and frontend friendly.

Yours,

-- 
   Ren? Rebe - ExactCODE GmbH - Europe, Germany, Berlin
   http://exactcode.de | http://t2-project.org | http://rene.rebe.name

[sane-devel] SANE 1.1.0 Release discussion

On 5/26/08, Ren? Rebe rene at exactcode.de wrote:
 Hi,

  ps: this time to the list as well :-)

  m. allan noah wrote:

  On 5/26/08, Ren? Rebe rene at exactcode.de wrote:
 
   Hi Allan,
  
can you explain the paper width option to me? Why can we
not simply use br x/y?
  
Actually I got a Fujitsu scanner here and find the duplicate
paper width option annoying at best.
  
 
  it is not duplicate. it is used by the backend to properly center the
  users x/y params to the moving paper guides. otherwise, if they want
  to scan an entire sheet of A5, they have to set the tl_x/y to some
  weird value that they have to calculate from the scanner's maximum
  width.
  how do you handle this in avision now?
 

  not at all, I consider this a front end job, it also avoids the simple
  arithmetic in every backend. The page size then also appears to indirectly
  change the maximal scan area? I find this way more complex than just
 allow
  frontends to center the scan area on the maximal area.

ahh, but you assume that the paper guides always center the paper. i
have a lexmark that i am working on, which has only one moving paper
guide. this code should be done in the backend, especially since it is
so simple :)

Aside the already mentioned button to use some more extend-able
XML encoding instead of a hardcoded set, I wonder if it is
good to expose sensors, frontends would rarely (if ever?) want
to check for them explicitly and the backend must check the
sensors before or during scan to generate proper errors
accordingly anyway.
  
 
  don't assume that sensors only indicate errors. the paper-in signal is
  quite useful in high volume apps- the front-end can start scanning
  immediately.
 

  Ah ok, media presense is indeed useful, granted. One could also
  start scaning on cover close, indeed. I was just afraid on exposing
  random sensors (home, etc.) without a real need.


  xml does not fix this problem, cause we would still have to define a
  schema so that front-ends could interpret it. so, lets just avoid the
  xml dependency.
 

  Still, many Avisions have Simplex / Duplex buttons, and some, like the
  HP 7400, allow resolution, color mode, and number of copies to be
  set on the device. How would you like to handle those then (and yes,
  the Avision backend does not export the 7400 options, yet, as I had
  no idea, beside a pre-formated  string message, how to expose them)?

  The problem with letting some buttons change the backend internal
  state configuration (resolution et al.) and some be exposed to the
  frontend (scan, fax, print) exposes two problems: One the frontend
  UI (if any) does not update when the user changes scanner values,
  and second may yield to scans with other parameters than the frontend
  believed to scan with. Having one flow of hardware notifications
  might be more structured and frontend friendly.

you have a good point, but only if the button names dont collide with
existing options, or we need a boolean control that the user can use
to state that those options are gotten from hardware...

allan
-- 
The truth is an offense, but not a sin

[sane-devel] SANE 1.1 impacts on sane-frontends

2008-05-26 Thread François Revol

   Hello,
 
   I have started to change sane-frontends to handle new status code 
 from SANE 
 1.1 . But before any commit, I suppose one should tag current 
 sources.
 

new status code ?
Hmm where should I snoop to know what to change ?
I might have to update Sanity later...
Or maybe Philippe is reading this ?

[sane-devel] SANE 1.1 impacts on sane-frontends

2008-05-26 Thread François Revol

  Hello,
  
  I have started to change sane-frontends to handle new status 
  code 
  from SANE 
  1.1 . But before any commit, I suppose one should tag current 
  sources.
  
 
 new status code ?
 Hmm where should I snoop to know what to change ?
 I might have to update Sanity later...
 Or maybe Philippe is reading this ?
 

Forget it I just found the feature list.

Fran?ois.

[sane-devel] Re : CanoScan LiDE90 support

2008-05-26 Thread Guillaume Gastebois

Hello,

I work on, but don't know when It'll be good working.

 I want to ask if anyone can tell me if there is any hope to have
 support in sane for this model of scanner. Thanks in advance.

[sane-devel] Problem with libusb and 64 bits 2.6.25 kernel

2008-05-26 Thread Nicolas

Sam V. posted recently a bug report with a 64 bits kernel, running the
pixma backend and a MF-4270 Canon MFP. 

Details here:

https://alioth.debian.org/tracker/?group_id=30186atid=410366func=detailaid=310861

He has the pixma backend running fine with a 32 bits kernel (same
version as 64 bits) in same conditions. 

On a 64 bits 2.6.25 kernel (Fedora 9) or 2.6.24 (Ubuntu), the logs show
that sometimes (but not always, that's why scanning finally works, but
takes very long time), there appears to be a:

Resource temporarily unavailable 

error for read calls, from either sanei_usb_read_int() or
sanei_usb_read_bulk(). They are triggered by usb_bulk_read() or
usb_interrupt_read() calls from libusb. 

This error induces the timeouts, thus long scanning time.

There do not appear to be errors on write calls (this would make
scanning fail).

I don't know what could cause this libusb error for the 64 bits kernel ?

Anyone here already experienced this, or would have a clue ?

Nicolas

[sane-devel] Problem with libusb and 64 bits 2.6.25 kernel

two random thoughts-

1. can he try 32 bit kernel on same exact machine, just to rule out
hardware problems?

2. is there a pattern to the timeouts, like always same number of
errors before a good packet?

allan

On 5/26/08, Nicolas nicolas.martin at freesurf.fr wrote:
 Sam V. posted recently a bug report with a 64 bits kernel, running the
  pixma backend and a MF-4270 Canon MFP.

  Details here:

  
 https://alioth.debian.org/tracker/?group_id=30186atid=410366func=detailaid=310861

  He has the pixma backend running fine with a 32 bits kernel (same
  version as 64 bits) in same conditions.

  On a 64 bits 2.6.25 kernel (Fedora 9) or 2.6.24 (Ubuntu), the logs show
  that sometimes (but not always, that's why scanning finally works, but
  takes very long time), there appears to be a:

  Resource temporarily unavailable

  error for read calls, from either sanei_usb_read_int() or
  sanei_usb_read_bulk(). They are triggered by usb_bulk_read() or
  usb_interrupt_read() calls from libusb.

  This error induces the timeouts, thus long scanning time.

  There do not appear to be errors on write calls (this would make
  scanning fail).

  I don't know what could cause this libusb error for the 64 bits kernel ?

  Anyone here already experienced this, or would have a clue ?

  Nicolas



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[sane-devel] Question on scanimage -f

2008-05-27 Thread Johannes Meixner


Hello,

On May 25 07:48 m. allan noah wrote (shortened):
 it would seem that a better long-term choice would be to correct
 scanimage to output a \n after each scanner?

And how can I then get the output in one single line?
(without using tr -d '\n' ;-)

It would break backward compatibility.

Therefore I suggest to provide an additional placeholder
which evaluates to a newline character, e.g. %n or \n
so that e.g. the command scanimage -f '%d%n' results the devices
each on a line with a trailing newline character at the very end.


Kind Regards
Johannes Meixner
-- 
SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstrasse 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany
AG Nuernberg, HRB 16746, GF: Markus Rex

[sane-devel] Support for CanoScan 8400F (GL841)

2008-05-28 Thread Greg Wyatt

According to the SANE website, the Canon CanoScan 8400F is currently
unsupported but GL841 based, to be added to genesys backend.  I would
GREATLY appreciate this scanner being supported in Linux (specifically
Ubuntu Hardy).  Does anyone know when this might happen?

Although it appears that all necessary information has been collected about
this scanner, please let me know if there is any way I could help to
accelerate the support of this scanner.  I am not very familiar with C++
programming and I am a recent convert from Windoze, but I offer any
assistance I am capable of providing, as I do own this scanner... hence I
might be able to at least answer device questions.

Best Regards,
--Greg
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[sane-devel] Problem with libusb and 64 bits 2.6.25 kernel

2008-05-27 Thread m. allan noah

On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 3:29 PM, Nicolas nicolas.martin at freesurf.fr wrote:
 Le lundi 26 mai 2008 ? 19:12 -0400, m. allan noah a ?crit :
 two random thoughts-

 1. can he try 32 bit kernel on same exact machine, just to rule out
 hardware problems?

 Good point, and to try other USB ports on the same machine, that needs
 to be confirmed first as it could be a HW issue

 2. is there a pattern to the timeouts, like always same number of
 errors before a good packet?

 It looks to be a repetitive pattern, i.e. error occurs on a second
 read sequence when reading image data, but occurs also sometimes with
 smaller transaction control messages (write message, then read response
 immediately).
 I've asked to give a try with a small tempo between two successive image
 data readings, but do not have feedback yet.

 Thanks


yes- it could be that his machine is too fast for the scanner, not
that it is 64 bits.

allan
-- 
The truth is an offense, but not a sin

[sane-devel] Problem with libusb and 64 bits 2.6.25 kernel

2008-05-27 Thread Nicolas


Le mardi 27 mai 2008 ? 15:42 -0400, m. allan noah a ?crit :
 On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 3:29 PM, Nicolas nicolas.martin at freesurf.fr 
 wrote:
  Le lundi 26 mai 2008 ? 19:12 -0400, m. allan noah a ?crit :
  two random thoughts-
 
  1. can he try 32 bit kernel on same exact machine, just to rule out
  hardware problems?
 
  Good point, and to try other USB ports on the same machine, that needs
  to be confirmed first as it could be a HW issue
 
  2. is there a pattern to the timeouts, like always same number of
  errors before a good packet?
 
  It looks to be a repetitive pattern, i.e. error occurs on a second
  read sequence when reading image data, but occurs also sometimes with
  smaller transaction control messages (write message, then read response
  immediately).
  I've asked to give a try with a small tempo between two successive image
  data readings, but do not have feedback yet.
 
  Thanks
 
 
 yes- it could be that his machine is too fast for the scanner, not
 that it is 64 bits.
 
 allan

But this would mean that with machines getting faster and faster,
something needs to be adjusted, so that consecutive usb commands do not
occur within a too short delay. 

Unfortunately, I did not see any spec for such timings in libusb. 
Maybe something about that is the usb spec ? need to check this point...

Nicolas

[sane-devel] Problem with libusb and 64 bits 2.6.25 kernel

2008-05-27 Thread m. allan noah

On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 4:01 PM, Nicolas nicolas.martin at freesurf.fr wrote:

 Le mardi 27 mai 2008 ? 15:42 -0400, m. allan noah a ?crit :
 On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 3:29 PM, Nicolas nicolas.martin at freesurf.fr 
 wrote:
  Le lundi 26 mai 2008 ? 19:12 -0400, m. allan noah a ?crit :
  two random thoughts-
 
  1. can he try 32 bit kernel on same exact machine, just to rule out
  hardware problems?
 
  Good point, and to try other USB ports on the same machine, that needs
  to be confirmed first as it could be a HW issue
 
  2. is there a pattern to the timeouts, like always same number of
  errors before a good packet?
 
  It looks to be a repetitive pattern, i.e. error occurs on a second
  read sequence when reading image data, but occurs also sometimes with
  smaller transaction control messages (write message, then read response
  immediately).
  I've asked to give a try with a small tempo between two successive image
  data readings, but do not have feedback yet.
 
  Thanks
 

 yes- it could be that his machine is too fast for the scanner, not
 that it is 64 bits.

 allan

 But this would mean that with machines getting faster and faster,
 something needs to be adjusted, so that consecutive usb commands do not
 occur within a too short delay.

 Unfortunately, I did not see any spec for such timings in libusb.
 Maybe something about that is the usb spec ? need to check this point...

 Nicolas


there is no way to control this in libusb AFAIK, instead, you would
have to determine a dynamic delay period to add before all commands.

allan
-- 
The truth is an offense, but not a sin

[sane-devel] Problem with libusb and 64 bits 2.6.25 kernel

2008-05-27 Thread Nicolas


Le mardi 27 mai 2008 ? 16:24 -0400, m. allan noah a ?crit :
 On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 4:01 PM, Nicolas nicolas.martin at freesurf.fr 
 wrote:
 
  Le mardi 27 mai 2008 ? 15:42 -0400, m. allan noah a ?crit :
  On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 3:29 PM, Nicolas nicolas.martin at freesurf.fr 
  wrote:
   Le lundi 26 mai 2008 ? 19:12 -0400, m. allan noah a ?crit :
   two random thoughts-
  
   1. can he try 32 bit kernel on same exact machine, just to rule out
   hardware problems?
  
   Good point, and to try other USB ports on the same machine, that needs
   to be confirmed first as it could be a HW issue
  
   2. is there a pattern to the timeouts, like always same number of
   errors before a good packet?
  
   It looks to be a repetitive pattern, i.e. error occurs on a second
   read sequence when reading image data, but occurs also sometimes with
   smaller transaction control messages (write message, then read response
   immediately).
   I've asked to give a try with a small tempo between two successive image
   data readings, but do not have feedback yet.
  
   Thanks
  
 
  yes- it could be that his machine is too fast for the scanner, not
  that it is 64 bits.
 
  allan
 
  But this would mean that with machines getting faster and faster,
  something needs to be adjusted, so that consecutive usb commands do not
  occur within a too short delay.
 
  Unfortunately, I did not see any spec for such timings in libusb.
  Maybe something about that is the usb spec ? need to check this point...
 
  Nicolas
 
 
 there is no way to control this in libusb AFAIK, instead, you would
 have to determine a dynamic delay period to add before all commands.
 
 allan

Probably will propose a static delay, even if that does not optimize
transfer speed performance (is that important for a scanner anyway ?),
it will be IMHO, more robust.

Nicolas

[sane-devel] Question on scanimage -f

2008-05-27 Thread m. allan noah

On 5/27/08, Dieter Jurzitza dieter.jurzitza at t-online.de wrote:
 Dear listmembers,
  I did not see the previous posting from M. Allan Noah, but in general I
  totally agree with Johannes Meixner: if one introduces such an option (what I
  would consider positive) the backward compatibility should not be broken.
  The only thing I am worried in this regard is whether it would be better to
  add something like a %n (what would be consistent in scanimage grammar or
  whether a \n should be preffered (this one goes to the C-programmers
  fraction ...).
  However, I could live with any decision, if people share my point that it
  would simplify parsing individual scanners from the scanimage -f output.
  Thank you very much for looking into this,
  thank you for a great program,

 take care

i have just committed the %n specifier code, it was easier than adding
\ handling.

allan
-- 
The truth is an offense, but not a sin

[sane-devel] Question on scanimage -f

2008-05-28 Thread Johannes Meixner


Hello

 On 5/27/08, Dieter Jurzitza dieter.jurzitza at t-online.de wrote:
...
 ... parsing individual scanners from the scanimage -f output.

FYI:
For the current scanimage -f output use something like
   scanimage -f '%d;' | tr ';' '\n'

Kind Regards
Johannes Meixner
-- 
SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstrasse 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany
AG Nuernberg, HRB 16746, GF: Markus Rex

[sane-devel] fujitsu fi-5220C flatbed prescan doesn't work with xsane

2008-05-28 Thread Dirk Meier

Hello,
my new fi-5220C is connected with its scsi interface to my OpenSuse 10.3 
system. I am using sane-backends 1.0.19 and xsane 0.995 for scanning.
By scanning with the adf I can get a prescan. After switching to flatbed 
source the prescan standard picture of xsane becomes smaller. Clicking 
on Vorschauscan (Prescan) produces the error message Fehler beim 
Lesen: Ung?ltiges Argument (error during reading: invalid parameter).
Does anyone have an idea to get the prescan from flatbed?
--
Dirk

[sane-devel] fujitsu fi-5220C flatbed prescan doesn't work with xsane

2008-05-28 Thread m. allan noah

sorry dirk- should have sent this to the list as well...

On 5/28/08, m. allan noah kitno455 at gmail.com wrote:
 On 5/28/08, Dirk Meier dirk.meier at gmx.de wrote:
   Hello,
my new fi-5220C is connected with its scsi interface to my OpenSuse 10.3
system. I am using sane-backends 1.0.19 and xsane 0.995 for scanning.
By scanning with the adf I can get a prescan. After switching to flatbed
source the prescan standard picture of xsane becomes smaller. Clicking
on Vorschauscan (Prescan) produces the error message Fehler beim
Lesen: Ung?ltiges Argument (error during reading: invalid parameter).
Does anyone have an idea to get the prescan from flatbed?


 can you run this command:

  SANE_DEBUG_FUJITSU=15 xsane 2prescan.log

  and then switch to flatbed and aquire the preview. then email me the
  prescan.log directly?

  allan

 --
  The truth is an offense, but not a sin



-- 
The truth is an offense, but not a sin

[sane-devel] Scanning multipage files

2008-05-28 Thread David Lochrin

   I'm attempting to scan a two-page document with PDF output.  The 'sane' 
working directory is created and three files are created therein - the two PNG 
image files and 'xsane-multipage-list'.

   However clicking on the save multipage file button pops up the message 
window  File multipageproject already exists and clicking on overwrite 
produces:  Error during save: Could not create secure file (may be a link does 
exist): multipageproject

   I notice the xsane setup Save tab shows all user-level protections as 
greyed out, though the actual file and upper-level directory protections should 
allow everything.

   Does anyone have any suggestions regarding what's wrong?  I'm running 
sane-backends-1.0.19 on SuSE Linux.

David

PS - My congratulations to the Developers on an excellent piece of software!  I 
see Canon now appear to be releasing sane backends for their multi-function 
products!

[sane-devel] segmentation fault in sort_and_average() at avision.c:4409

2008-05-28 Thread Kenneth Redler

(15:02:26) kennethr: I'm getting segmentation fault  core dump when
attempting to use an HPscanjet5300C with scanimage (sane-backends)
1.0.19; backend version 1.0.19 on Ubuntu 8.04(Hardy Heron).  What can
I do to get this issue resolved?
(15:02:31) kennethr: sort_and_average (format=0x7fffd7092280,
(15:02:31) kennethr: data=0xcd12b0 ?\002?\002?002\002) at avision.c:4409
(15:02:31) kennethr: 4409avision.c: No such file or directory.
(15:02:31) kennethr: in avision.c


GDB Backtrace of core file:
(gdb) bt
#0  sort_and_average (format=0x7fffd7092280,
data=0xcd12b0 ?\002?\002?002\002) at avision.c:4409
#1  0x7f81be68a88c in normal_calibration (s=0x8f2440) at avision.c:4642
#2  0x7f81be68b961 in sane_avision_start (handle=value optimized out)
at avision.c:7828
#3  0x004228c6 in preview_scan_start (p=0x98a8e0)
at xsane-preview.c:2001
#4  0x00422f02 in preview_scan (p=0x98a8e0) at xsane-preview.c:5103
#5  0x7f81cb5f9bcf in g_closure_invoke () from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
#6  0x7f81cb60d6bc in ?? () from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
#7  0x7f81cb60f0d5 in g_signal_emit_valist ()
   from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
#8  0x7f81cb60f483 in g_signal_emit () from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
#9  0x7f81cc6472c9 in gtk_real_button_released (button=0x1)
at /build/buildd/gtk+2.0-2.12.9/gtk/gtkbutton.c:1484
#10 0x7f81cb5f9bcf in g_closure_invoke () from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
#11 0x7f81cb60d386 in ?? () from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
#12 0x7f81cb60f0d5 in g_signal_emit_valist ()
   from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
#13 0x7f81cb60f483 in g_signal_emit () from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
#14 0x7f81cc645b99 in gtk_button_button_release (widget=0x1,
event=0x987bb0) at /build/buildd/gtk+2.0-2.12.9/gtk/gtkbutton.c:1377
#15 0x7f81cc70b87f in _gtk_marshal_BOOLEAN__BOXED (closure=0x6e1ac0,
return_value=0x7fffd7093700, n_param_values=value optimized out,
param_values=0x7fffd70937e0, invocation_hint=value optimized out,
marshal_data=0x7f81cc645b80)
at /build/buildd/gtk+2.0-2.12.9/gtk/gtkmarshalers.c:84
#16 0x7f81cb5f9bcf in g_closure_invoke () from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
#17 0x7f81cb60daa8 in ?? () from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
#18 0x7f81cb60ede6 in g_signal_emit_valist ()
   from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
#19 0x7f81cb60f483 in g_signal_emit () from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
#20 0x7f81cc812e55 in gtk_widget_event_internal (widget=0x994640,
event=0xcc9c70) at /build/buildd/gtk+2.0-2.12.9/gtk/gtkwidget.c:4678
#21 0x7f81cc704b92 in IA__gtk_propagate_event (widget=0x994640,
event=0xcc9c70) at /build/buildd/gtk+2.0-2.12.9/gtk/gtkmain.c:2336
#22 0x7f81cc705b35 in IA__gtk_main_do_event (event=0xcc9c70)
at /build/buildd/gtk+2.0-2.12.9/gtk/gtkmain.c:1556
#23 0x7f81cc36f58c in gdk_event_dispatch (source=value optimized out,
callback=value optimized out, user_data=value optimized out)
at /build/buildd/gtk+2.0-2.12.9/gdk/x11/gdkevents-x11.c:2351
#24 0x7f81cb161262 in g_main_context_dispatch ()
   from /usr/lib/libglib-2.0.so.0
#25 0x7f81cb164516 in ?? () from /usr/lib/libglib-2.0.so.0
#26 0x7f81cb1647d7 in g_main_loop_run () from /usr/lib/libglib-2.0.so.0
#27 0x7f81cc705f03 in IA__gtk_main ()
at /build/buildd/gtk+2.0-2.12.9/gtk/gtkmain.c:1163
#28 0x00471877 in xsane_interface (argc=1, argv=value optimized out)
at xsane.c:6006
#29 0x004727aa in main (argc=1, argv=0x7fffd7095548) at xsane.c:6199
(gdb)


Starting up Xsane and I hit this when I hit the Acquire Preview button.
Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!

 - kr

[sane-devel] segmentation fault in sort_and_average() at avision.c:4409

2008-05-28 Thread m. allan noah

first thing i would try is building sane from a cvs checkout, and see
if the recent avision updates fix the problem.

allan

On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 4:10 PM, Kenneth Redler kennyredler at gmail.com 
wrote:
 (15:02:26) kennethr: I'm getting segmentation fault  core dump when
 attempting to use an HPscanjet5300C with scanimage (sane-backends)
 1.0.19; backend version 1.0.19 on Ubuntu 8.04(Hardy Heron).  What can
 I do to get this issue resolved?
 (15:02:31) kennethr: sort_and_average (format=0x7fffd7092280,
 (15:02:31) kennethr: data=0xcd12b0 ?\002?\002?002\002) at avision.c:4409
 (15:02:31) kennethr: 4409avision.c: No such file or directory.
 (15:02:31) kennethr: in avision.c


 GDB Backtrace of core file:
 (gdb) bt
 #0  sort_and_average (format=0x7fffd7092280,
data=0xcd12b0 ?\002?\002?002\002) at avision.c:4409
 #1  0x7f81be68a88c in normal_calibration (s=0x8f2440) at avision.c:4642
 #2  0x7f81be68b961 in sane_avision_start (handle=value optimized out)
at avision.c:7828
 #3  0x004228c6 in preview_scan_start (p=0x98a8e0)
at xsane-preview.c:2001
 #4  0x00422f02 in preview_scan (p=0x98a8e0) at xsane-preview.c:5103
 #5  0x7f81cb5f9bcf in g_closure_invoke () from 
 /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
 #6  0x7f81cb60d6bc in ?? () from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
 #7  0x7f81cb60f0d5 in g_signal_emit_valist ()
   from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
 #8  0x7f81cb60f483 in g_signal_emit () from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
 #9  0x7f81cc6472c9 in gtk_real_button_released (button=0x1)
at /build/buildd/gtk+2.0-2.12.9/gtk/gtkbutton.c:1484
 #10 0x7f81cb5f9bcf in g_closure_invoke () from 
 /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
 #11 0x7f81cb60d386 in ?? () from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
 #12 0x7f81cb60f0d5 in g_signal_emit_valist ()
   from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
 #13 0x7f81cb60f483 in g_signal_emit () from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
 #14 0x7f81cc645b99 in gtk_button_button_release (widget=0x1,
event=0x987bb0) at /build/buildd/gtk+2.0-2.12.9/gtk/gtkbutton.c:1377
 #15 0x7f81cc70b87f in _gtk_marshal_BOOLEAN__BOXED (closure=0x6e1ac0,
return_value=0x7fffd7093700, n_param_values=value optimized out,
param_values=0x7fffd70937e0, invocation_hint=value optimized out,
marshal_data=0x7f81cc645b80)
at /build/buildd/gtk+2.0-2.12.9/gtk/gtkmarshalers.c:84
 #16 0x7f81cb5f9bcf in g_closure_invoke () from 
 /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
 #17 0x7f81cb60daa8 in ?? () from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
 #18 0x7f81cb60ede6 in g_signal_emit_valist ()
   from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
 #19 0x7f81cb60f483 in g_signal_emit () from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
 #20 0x7f81cc812e55 in gtk_widget_event_internal (widget=0x994640,
event=0xcc9c70) at /build/buildd/gtk+2.0-2.12.9/gtk/gtkwidget.c:4678
 #21 0x7f81cc704b92 in IA__gtk_propagate_event (widget=0x994640,
event=0xcc9c70) at /build/buildd/gtk+2.0-2.12.9/gtk/gtkmain.c:2336
 #22 0x7f81cc705b35 in IA__gtk_main_do_event (event=0xcc9c70)
at /build/buildd/gtk+2.0-2.12.9/gtk/gtkmain.c:1556
 #23 0x7f81cc36f58c in gdk_event_dispatch (source=value optimized out,
callback=value optimized out, user_data=value optimized out)
at /build/buildd/gtk+2.0-2.12.9/gdk/x11/gdkevents-x11.c:2351
 #24 0x7f81cb161262 in g_main_context_dispatch ()
   from /usr/lib/libglib-2.0.so.0
 #25 0x7f81cb164516 in ?? () from /usr/lib/libglib-2.0.so.0
 #26 0x7f81cb1647d7 in g_main_loop_run () from /usr/lib/libglib-2.0.so.0
 #27 0x7f81cc705f03 in IA__gtk_main ()
at /build/buildd/gtk+2.0-2.12.9/gtk/gtkmain.c:1163
 #28 0x00471877 in xsane_interface (argc=1, argv=value optimized out)
at xsane.c:6006
 #29 0x004727aa in main (argc=1, argv=0x7fffd7095548) at xsane.c:6199
 (gdb)


 Starting up Xsane and I hit this when I hit the Acquire Preview button.
 Any help would be appreciated.

 Thanks!

  - kr
 --
 sane-devel mailing list: sane-devel at lists.alioth.debian.org
 http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/sane-devel
 Unsubscribe: Send mail with subject unsubscribe your_password
 to sane-devel-request at lists.alioth.debian.org



-- 
The truth is an offense, but not a sin

[sane-devel] segmentation fault in sort_and_average() at avision.c:4409

2008-05-29 Thread René Rebe

Yes, they do fix this.

Sorry, somehow I wiped some lines of code with some previous code merge,
introducing this regression ...

CVS is fine.

Yours,

m. allan noah wrote:
 first thing i would try is building sane from a cvs checkout, and see
 if the recent avision updates fix the problem.
 
 allan
 
 On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 4:10 PM, Kenneth Redler kennyredler at gmail.com 
 wrote:
 (15:02:26) kennethr: I'm getting segmentation fault  core dump when
 attempting to use an HPscanjet5300C with scanimage (sane-backends)
 1.0.19; backend version 1.0.19 on Ubuntu 8.04(Hardy Heron).  What can
 I do to get this issue resolved?
 (15:02:31) kennethr: sort_and_average (format=0x7fffd7092280,
 (15:02:31) kennethr: data=0xcd12b0 ?\002?\002?002\002) at 
 avision.c:4409
 (15:02:31) kennethr: 4409avision.c: No such file or directory.
 (15:02:31) kennethr: in avision.c


 GDB Backtrace of core file:
 (gdb) bt
 #0  sort_and_average (format=0x7fffd7092280,
data=0xcd12b0 ?\002?\002?002\002) at avision.c:4409
 #1  0x7f81be68a88c in normal_calibration (s=0x8f2440) at avision.c:4642
 #2  0x7f81be68b961 in sane_avision_start (handle=value optimized out)
at avision.c:7828
 #3  0x004228c6 in preview_scan_start (p=0x98a8e0)
at xsane-preview.c:2001
 #4  0x00422f02 in preview_scan (p=0x98a8e0) at xsane-preview.c:5103
 #5  0x7f81cb5f9bcf in g_closure_invoke () from 
 /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
 #6  0x7f81cb60d6bc in ?? () from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
 #7  0x7f81cb60f0d5 in g_signal_emit_valist ()
   from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
 #8  0x7f81cb60f483 in g_signal_emit () from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
 #9  0x7f81cc6472c9 in gtk_real_button_released (button=0x1)
at /build/buildd/gtk+2.0-2.12.9/gtk/gtkbutton.c:1484
 #10 0x7f81cb5f9bcf in g_closure_invoke () from 
 /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
 #11 0x7f81cb60d386 in ?? () from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
 #12 0x7f81cb60f0d5 in g_signal_emit_valist ()
   from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
 #13 0x7f81cb60f483 in g_signal_emit () from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
 #14 0x7f81cc645b99 in gtk_button_button_release (widget=0x1,
event=0x987bb0) at /build/buildd/gtk+2.0-2.12.9/gtk/gtkbutton.c:1377
 #15 0x7f81cc70b87f in _gtk_marshal_BOOLEAN__BOXED (closure=0x6e1ac0,
return_value=0x7fffd7093700, n_param_values=value optimized out,
param_values=0x7fffd70937e0, invocation_hint=value optimized out,
marshal_data=0x7f81cc645b80)
at /build/buildd/gtk+2.0-2.12.9/gtk/gtkmarshalers.c:84
 #16 0x7f81cb5f9bcf in g_closure_invoke () from 
 /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
 #17 0x7f81cb60daa8 in ?? () from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
 #18 0x7f81cb60ede6 in g_signal_emit_valist ()
   from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
 #19 0x7f81cb60f483 in g_signal_emit () from /usr/lib/libgobject-2.0.so.0
 #20 0x7f81cc812e55 in gtk_widget_event_internal (widget=0x994640,
event=0xcc9c70) at /build/buildd/gtk+2.0-2.12.9/gtk/gtkwidget.c:4678
 #21 0x7f81cc704b92 in IA__gtk_propagate_event (widget=0x994640,
event=0xcc9c70) at /build/buildd/gtk+2.0-2.12.9/gtk/gtkmain.c:2336
 #22 0x7f81cc705b35 in IA__gtk_main_do_event (event=0xcc9c70)
at /build/buildd/gtk+2.0-2.12.9/gtk/gtkmain.c:1556
 #23 0x7f81cc36f58c in gdk_event_dispatch (source=value optimized out,
callback=value optimized out, user_data=value optimized out)
at /build/buildd/gtk+2.0-2.12.9/gdk/x11/gdkevents-x11.c:2351
 #24 0x7f81cb161262 in g_main_context_dispatch ()
   from /usr/lib/libglib-2.0.so.0
 #25 0x7f81cb164516 in ?? () from /usr/lib/libglib-2.0.so.0
 #26 0x7f81cb1647d7 in g_main_loop_run () from /usr/lib/libglib-2.0.so.0
 #27 0x7f81cc705f03 in IA__gtk_main ()
at /build/buildd/gtk+2.0-2.12.9/gtk/gtkmain.c:1163
 #28 0x00471877 in xsane_interface (argc=1, argv=value optimized 
 out)
at xsane.c:6006
 #29 0x004727aa in main (argc=1, argv=0x7fffd7095548) at xsane.c:6199
 (gdb)


 Starting up Xsane and I hit this when I hit the Acquire Preview button.
 Any help would be appreciated.

 Thanks!

  - kr
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 http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/sane-devel
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[sane-devel] HP Photosmart C4280 on Mac OS X 10.5.2

2008-05-30 Thread Coe, Kenneth

Hello all, 

Please be patient with a novice here:  I'm trying to use twain-sane in
order to use the SANE interface with the scanner on a HP Photosmart
C4280.  This is running on Mac OS X 10.5.2.  Following the FAQ at
http://www.ellert.se/twain-sane/faq.html ,  I've managed to find the
scanner using sane-find-scanner and modified the HP42000.conf file
such that scanimage -L reports the scanner as well.  However, when I
try to actually scan using scanimage  test pnm it doesn't work.
However, scanimage -d test:0  test.pnm does work.  There, the FAQ
states that this is likely a problem with the backend or its
configuration, and it encourages to email this group.   So here I am J

 

Have I modified the wrong backend configuration file?  Is the Photosmart
C4280 usable on Mac  OS X 10.5.3 via SANE interface?  Thanks in advance
for your advice in this matter.

__

The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidential. 
If you are not the 
intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message and all copies; (ii) do not 
disclose, 
distribute or use the message in any manner; and (iii) notify the sender 
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[sane-devel] Support for CanoScan 8400F (GL841)

2008-05-31 Thread David Martin - Airgead Studio

Greg Wyatt wrote:
 According to the SANE website, the Canon CanoScan 8400F is currently 
 unsupported but GL841 based, to be added to genesys backend.  I 
 would GREATLY appreciate this scanner being supported in Linux 
 (specifically Ubuntu Hardy).  Does anyone know when this might happen?

 Although it appears that all necessary information has been collected 
 about this scanner, please let me know if there is any way I could 
 help to accelerate the support of this scanner.  I am not very 
 familiar with C++ programming and I am a recent convert from Windoze, 
 but I offer any assistance I am capable of providing, as I do own this 
 scanner... hence I might be able to at least answer device questions.

 Best Regards,
 --Greg
Folks

I could also help out with testing on this one. Lack of linux support 
for this scanner is the one thing that still keeps me on windoze.

Cheers
Dave

[sane-devel] do you now this driver for hp2400 scanjet ?

2008-05-30 Thread Olivier DROUET

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No subject

2008-05-22 Thread

example, if we buy some modules from other company without source code, =
how to deal with it?  Would you please give me some suggestion for =
commerce development like this?
 I agree to your opinion that we should not violate the spirit of =
freedom through the middle-ware layer. Our idea is to open as much as we =
can (  not to open all), but not to close as much as possible.=20

Any comments and suggetion are valuable for us, thanks.
=20

;-Original Message-
;From: m. allan noah [mailto:kitno455 at gmail.com]=20
;Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 9:03 AM
;To: Wang Mengqiang
;Cc: sane-devel at lists.alioth.debian.org
;Subject: Re: [sane-devel] Please give me some help to solve=20
;the license issues in using sane
;
;On 6/4/08, Wang Mengqiang WangMengqiang at canon-ib.com.cn wrote:
; Hello, everyone,
;
;  My name is Wang mengqiang, I am expecting to get your help=20
;on development very much.
;
;  I am investigating to develop a commerce driver on linux. =20
;I have studied the sane project for some time. And, we are=20
;planning to develop the driver on sane. But, I have some=20
;doubts on license of sane so, I'd like to get the answer from=20
;sane directly.
;
;we are not lawyers, but we will try to help.
;
;  1) In the development, we plan to use several special=20
;modules  which do not contain any open source code from sane=20
;or other party, because they contain some tecnology that we=20
;do not want to open. So, that is, our backend is composed of=20
;two parts, one part is open source code which we refer to the=20
;source code from sane, and another part is one that should=20
;not be open. Of course, the first part(open source part) will=20
;call the functions in the second part(closed source part).=20
;After compiling and linking them together, we get the=20
;backend. My questions is whether we can keep the second part=20
;closed in this way,  whether this way comform to the license=20
;of sane(GPL)?  Please refer to the attached image for the=20
;architecture.
;
;SANE is GPL, with an added exception to allow proprietary=20
;front-end programs to link against it. What you are=20
;suggesting is the opposite- you wish to have a free=20
;'middleware' layer, which loads closed backends to do that=20
;actual work? I think this is in violation of the spirit of=20
;the license exception, though perhaps not the letter. Please=20
;read the file LICENSE in the sane-backends source, it=20
;attempts to clarify the situation, by specifically referring=20
;to the 'licensing status of the _program_ that uses the=20
;libraries', not the status of a library.
;
;Note also that your plan prevents those of us that use=20
;alternative CPU's (PPC, ARM) from using your code, unless you=20
;are going to compile it for us.
;
;allan
;--
;The truth is an offense, but not a sin
;

[sane-devel] incompatible iscan-2.11.0

2008-04-30 Thread m. allan noah

On 4/30/08, Johannes Meixner jsmeix at suse.de wrote:

  Hello,

  On Apr 30 11:35 Olaf Meeuwissen wrote (shortened):

  Johannes Meixner jsmeix at suse.de writes:
On Apr 24 16:35 Olaf Meeuwissen wrote (shortened):
Johannes Meixner jsmeix at suse.de writes:
   

   Because of legal issues we cannot do anything automatically
with proprietary stuff.

 ...

  When a proprietary model requires a proprietary package that does not
   mean that SUSE (or any other distributor) has to provide it.  What
   distributors can provide the user with is a means to conveniently
   download the required package from its canonical location and
   install it.  This of course after warning the user that they are about
   to download and install third-party software that is absolutely not

  supported by their distribution, that is non-free ...

  Yes.
  But this is not the automatically which I mean.
  When I say automatically, I mean something without
  user interaction.
  A user dialog is what I call manually - i.e. the user
  must actively do something - even if this something is
  perfectly guided by YaST.



   This can be as simple as the following proof of concept:
  
 wget $url_to_proprietary_package
 rpm -U $package


 No.
  Before the wget I would have to show the right proprietary
  license dialog so that the correct proof of concept is:

  wget $url_to_license_text
  show the proprietary license dialog
  if the user accepts the license
  then wget $url_to_proprietary_package  rpm -U $package
  else show a it cannot work message.

  This leads again to the same old question:

  What are the reliable fixed URLs for the right versions
  of your proprietary packages?

  And to a new question:

  What are the reliable fixed URLs for the right license
  text for the right version of your proprietary packages?

  Note that on the usres's computer an older version of the
  epkowa backend may run.
  I would have to make sure that YaST downloads the right
  version of the proprietary package.
  For example our business products Suse Linux Enterprise
  Server (SLES) and Suse Linux Enterprise Desktop (SLED)
  have a lifetime of several years (about 5 years, sometimes
  even longer).
  Usually there are no package version upgrades during
  lifetime (except for severe bugs, e.g. security issues,
  but e.g. not just because there are some more supported
  models or some new features) so that it can happen that
  a SLES/SLED user runs a 5 years old epkowa backend.
  Compare
  https://answers.launchpad.net/hplip/+question/30595

  I cannot have the license texts preinstalled.
  Guess what happens if a user finds them and wonders
  why the hell he has proprietary software installed
  (otherwise there would be no proprietary license text)
  and where the hell this proprietary software is installed?
  Don't have only usual home users in mind!
  Think about enterprise admins who do care about the exact
  licenses of their installed systems (e.g. the workstations
  where SLED runs).
  I will never ever risk any tiny license issue with any
  of our customers because of whatever quick and dirty
  proof of concept hack with proprietary software.

  I cannot even have the license texts on our CDs/DVDs
  and install them only just before YaST shows them
  because the license texts on our CDs/DVDs might be
  outdated for the actually downloaded proprietary package
  (have the possibly 5 years old SLED system in mind).

  If I would implement something like the proof of concept,
  I need the currently right matching license text downloaded
  at the same time as the proprietary package is downloaded.
  I need the currently right license text separated before
  any proprietary stuff is stored on the system.
  I will not download and unpack any proprietary stuff
  and then show the license dialog.

  Alternativery provide a free iscan-setup tool which
  does all what is necessary regarding proprietary stuff.
  I can call such a tool from YaST if a model is set up
  which requires proprietary stuff.



   What are the _legal_ issues with this?


 Do you really want an authoritative answer?
  As soon as the Avasys lawyers and our lawyers start a
  discussion about the legal issues, you can probably wait
  very long until I might start to implement something.
  Perhaps in the end everything is very simple but likely
  the lawyers need much time until the issue is finished.

  Just trust me and provide what I request to get good support
  with reasonable effort in a reasonable time or you might
  get no support at all (depending on what the lawyers do).



   Above I was thinking along more generic lines.  Stuff that
   would work for all proprietary crap,
   not just what comes with iscan.


 Usually each proprietary stuff has its own special issues
  (which are introduced by each special proprietary license)
  so that usually each proprietary stuff requires its own
  special handling.

  The proprietary crap form HP is ideal

[sane-devel] HP Photosmart C4280 on Mac OS X 10.5.2

2008-06-02 Thread m. allan noah

nothing i can find about the hp4200 backend indicates that it supports
your machine. i think you need to see if the hpaio backend supports
this scanner, and if so, if that backend is available for your OS. it
comes not from sane, but from: hplip.sourceforge.net, IIRC.

allan

On 5/30/08, Coe, Kenneth Kenneth.Coe at fnis.com wrote:




 Hello all,

 Please be patient with a novice here:  I'm trying to use twain-sane in order
 to use the SANE interface with the scanner on a HP Photosmart C4280.  This
 is running on Mac OS X 10.5.2.  Following the FAQ at
 http://www.ellert.se/twain-sane/faq.html ,  I've managed to
 find the scanner using sane-find-scanner and modified the HP42000.conf
 file such that scanimage ?L reports the scanner as well.  However, when I
 try to actually scan using scanimage  test pnm it doesn't work.  However,
 scanimage ?d test:0  test.pnm does work.  There, the FAQ states that this
 is likely a problem with the backend or its configuration, and it encourages
 to email this group.   So here I am J



 Have I modified the wrong backend configuration file?  Is the Photosmart
 C4280 usable on Mac  OS X 10.5.3 via SANE interface?  Thanks in advance for
 your advice in this matter.
  __

  The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or
 confidential. If you are not the
  intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message and all copies; (ii) do
 not disclose,
  distribute or use the message in any manner; and (iii) notify the sender
 immediately. In addition,
  please be aware that any message addressed to our domain is subject to
 archiving and review by
  persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you.
  _

 --
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 sane-devel at lists.alioth.debian.org
  http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/sane-devel
  Unsubscribe: Send mail with subject unsubscribe your_password
  to sane-devel-request at lists.alioth.debian.org



-- 
The truth is an offense, but not a sin

[sane-devel] HP Photosmart C4280 on Mac OS X 10.5.2

2008-06-02 Thread Coe, Kenneth

Thanks for the input.  It looks like it is not supported on Mac OS X
10.5 at the moment, from all that I can gather.  

-Original Message-
From: m. allan noah [mailto:kitno...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 7:08 AM
To: Coe, Kenneth
Cc: sane-devel at lists.alioth.debian.org
Subject: Re: [sane-devel] HP Photosmart C4280 on Mac OS X 10.5.2

nothing i can find about the hp4200 backend indicates that it supports
your machine. i think you need to see if the hpaio backend supports
this scanner, and if so, if that backend is available for your OS. it
comes not from sane, but from: hplip.sourceforge.net, IIRC.

allan

On 5/30/08, Coe, Kenneth Kenneth.Coe at fnis.com wrote:

 Hello all,

 Please be patient with a novice here:  I'm trying to use twain-sane in
order
 to use the SANE interface with the scanner on a HP Photosmart C4280.
This
 is running on Mac OS X 10.5.2.  Following the FAQ at
 http://www.ellert.se/twain-sane/faq.html ,  I've managed to
 find the scanner using sane-find-scanner and modified the
HP42000.conf
 file such that scanimage -L reports the scanner as well.  However,
when I
 try to actually scan using scanimage  test pnm it doesn't work.
However,
 scanimage -d test:0  test.pnm does work.  There, the FAQ states
that this
 is likely a problem with the backend or its configuration, and it
encourages
 to email this group.   So here I am J

 Have I modified the wrong backend configuration file?  Is the
Photosmart
 C4280 usable on Mac  OS X 10.5.3 via SANE interface?  Thanks in
advance for
 your advice in this matter.
  __

  The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or
 confidential. If you are not the
  intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message and all copies;
(ii) do
 not disclose,
  distribute or use the message in any manner; and (iii) notify the
sender
 immediately. In addition,
  please be aware that any message addressed to our domain is subject
to
 archiving and review by
  persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you.
  _

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 sane-devel at lists.alioth.debian.org
  http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/sane-devel
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The truth is an offense, but not a sin

__

The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidential. 
If you are not the 
intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message and all copies; (ii) do not 
disclose, 
distribute or use the message in any manner; and (iii) notify the sender 
immediately. In addition, 
please be aware that any message addressed to our domain is subject to 
archiving and review by 
persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you.
_

[sane-devel] fujitsu scanner owners needed

2008-06-02 Thread m. allan noah

In the past few weeks, I have made several updates to the fujitsu sane
backend. I don't really have a good list of testers, so I am putting
out a call for all fujitsu backend users to please try the current
version from SANE CVS. We are working toward a SANE 1.1.0 release this
summer, and I really would like to get some testing before that.

Particular areas to watch out for:
1. JPEG output is now possible, but will only work with scanimage from
cvs, or some other sane 1.1 compliant frontend
2. The mechanism for determining the color interlace mode is now
automatic, so please see if color scans look weird, particularly if
the scanner has done a color scan in windows without being power
cycled.
3. several options have been renamed to match the sane 1.1 standard,
particularly pagewidth and pageheight have had a '-' added
4. the scanner device is now named 'fujitsu:model:serial' instead of
the system provided name, if the scanner supports serial number
detection. please verify that the new name actually matches your
scanner :)
5. initialization code has changed somewhat, the backend should find
scanners if they are plugged in after the front-end starts (requires
custom daemon frontend to test, I dont know of any in the wild)
6. please test page-width and page-height support, it seems that some
cheaper scanners don't work.

Known issues:
1. IPC and endorser options are still not enabled, but I am getting closer :)
2. page-width and page-height don't seem to work for the fi-5110EOX,
needs software emulation
3. if the width of flat-bed is smaller than that of the adf, XSANE's
preview does not work.

Thanks!

allan
-- 
The truth is an offense, but not a sin

[sane-devel] Mac SF600

2008-06-02 Thread Diego Oliveira

Hello all,

I'm trying to use a ColorPage SF600 in a mac Leopard box by the sane
distribution found in http://www.ellert.se/twain-sane/. All goes right until
I try to scan a image. The software just freezes. Running with the
SANE_DEBUG_GT68XX=255 I realized that the drives is looping always showing
the output gt68xx_device_generic_rec: command=0x35.

It is an USB scanner and the libusb is already installed. For test I
installed in a windows box and works just fine.

Is there something else I may do to get this scanner running in my Mac box?

-- 
Att.
Diego de Oliveira
System Architect
diego at diegooliveira.com
www.diegooliveira.com
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[sane-devel] do you now this driver for hp2400 scanjet ?

2008-06-02 Thread Nicolas

Did you give a try to those backends ?

Maybe to be added into
sane-backends/doc/descriptions-external/hp2400.desc and hp8300.desc ?

Nicolas

Le vendredi 30 mai 2008 ? 19:45 +0200, Olivier DROUET a ?crit :
 http://www.elcot.in/linuxdrivers_download.php
 
 -- 
 
 olivier.drouet at tele2.fr
  
 
 
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[sane-devel] problems with genesys and MD6228

2008-06-03 Thread stef

Hello,

I have commit a fix for the offset of scan area in latest SANE's CVS. I 
not 
sure this would correct the problem you had a low black and white resolution 
scans. If there is still some problem, could you send me the debug log 
produced by running theses commands in a shell:

export SANE_DEBUG_GENESYS=511
export SANE_DEBUG_GENESYS_GL646=511
scanimage -d genesys --resolution 50 2scan.log scan.pnm

So that I can try to figure ou what is happening ?

Regards,
Stef

[sane-devel] problems with genesys and MD6228

2008-06-03 Thread Werner Holtfreter

Hallo stef,

am Dienstag, 2008-06-03 06:46 schrieben Sie:

 I have commit a fix for the offset of scan area in latest
 SANE's CVS. 

Thank you very much!

 I not sure this would correct the problem you had a low 
 black and white resolution scans. If there is still some problem,
 could you send me the debug log produced by running theses
 commands in a shell:

 export SANE_DEBUG_GENESYS=511
 export SANE_DEBUG_GENESYS_GL646=511
 scanimage -d genesys --resolution 50 2scan.log scan.pnm

   So that I can try to figure ou what is happening ?

Do you mean I should test with my old Sane version or with the new 
CVS?
-- 
Viele Gr??e
Werner Holtfreter

[sane-devel] PENTAX DSmobile 600 scanner

2008-06-03 Thread Kjell André Lende

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone has had any luck getting the PENTAX DSmobile
600 scanner to work in SANE/on Linux? I would very much like to purchase
it, but there is no point in that if it doesn't work on my system...

--
Regards,
Kjell Andr? Lende

[sane-devel] problems with genesys and MD6228

2008-06-03 Thread stef

Le Tuesday 03 June 2008 14:18:05 Werner Holtfreter, vous avez ?crit?:
 Hallo stef,

 am Dienstag, 2008-06-03 06:46 schrieben Sie:
  I have commit a fix for the offset of scan area in latest
  SANE's CVS.

 Thank you very much!

  I not sure this would correct the problem you had a low
  black and white resolution scans. If there is still some problem,
  could you send me the debug log produced by running theses
  commands in a shell:
 
  export SANE_DEBUG_GENESYS=511
  export SANE_DEBUG_GENESYS_GL646=511
  scanimage -d genesys --resolution 50 2scan.log scan.pnm
 
  So that I can try to figure ou what is happening ?

 Do you mean I should test with my old Sane version or with the new
 CVS?
 --
 Viele Gr??e
 Werner Holtfreter

If the new CVS doesn't work, then please send me the log done with the 
newer 
version.

Regards,
Stef

[sane-devel] PENTAX DSmobile 600 scanner

2008-06-04 Thread m. allan noah

found this in the mailing list archives:

http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/sane-devel/2007-July/019594.html

allan

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Kjell Andr? Lende post at mypanorama.org 
wrote:
 Hi,

 I was wondering if anyone has had any luck getting the PENTAX DSmobile
 600 scanner to work in SANE/on Linux? I would very much like to purchase
 it, but there is no point in that if it doesn't work on my system...

 --
 Regards,
 Kjell Andr? Lende

 --
 sane-devel mailing list: sane-devel at lists.alioth.debian.org
 http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/sane-devel
 Unsubscribe: Send mail with subject unsubscribe your_password
 to sane-devel-request at lists.alioth.debian.org



-- 
The truth is an offense, but not a sin

[sane-devel] PENTAX DSmobile 600 scanner

2008-06-04 Thread Gerard Klaver

On Wed, 2008-06-04 at 16:18 +0200, Kjell Andr? Lende wrote:
 On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 21:24:31 +0200
 Thierry de Coulon tcoulon at decoulon.ch wrote:
 
  On Tuesday 03 June 2008, Kjell Andr? Lende wrote:
   Hi,
  
   I was wondering if anyone has had any luck getting the PENTAX
   DSmobile 600 scanner to work in SANE/on Linux? I would very much
   like to purchase it, but there is no point in that if it doesn't
   work on my system...
  
   --
   Regards,
   Kjell Andr? Lende
  
  Hi,
  
  I'm sorry to say that I had no success. It works with Mac OS and from
  a virtual WInblow machine... no luck with Linux
  
  Thierry
 
 That's too bad...
 
 It seems that the Visigo A4 or Visigo Travelscan 464 is supported
 through SANE [1]. Have anyone any experience with this scanner? Does it
 work well, is reliable etc? Alternately, has anyone gotten the Visigo
 PS465 Simplex [2] (an updated version, I guess) to work on Linux?
 
 I'm also interested in any other light-weight, portable and sturdy
 scanners that would work in Linux. It's for scanning documents, so a
 resolution of about 300 dpi should be plenty.
 
 1. http://www.sane-project.org/sane-mfgs.html#Z-AMBIR
 2. http://www.ambir.com/product.asp?item=PS465-SS
 
 --
 Regards,
 Kjell Andr? Lende
 

Check this  http://www.meier-geinitz.de/sane/gt68xx-backend/ for the
status of the Plustek OpticSlim M12


-- 

m.vr.gr.
Gerard Klaver

[sane-devel] problems with genesys and MD6228

2008-06-04 Thread Werner Holtfreter

Am Dienstag, 3. Juni 2008 20:12:29 schrieb stef:

   I not sure this would correct the problem you had a low
   black and white resolution scans. If there is still some
   problem, could you send me the debug log produced by running
   theses commands in a shell:
  
   export SANE_DEBUG_GENESYS=511
   export SANE_DEBUG_GENESYS_GL646=511
   scanimage -d genesys --resolution 50 2scan.log scan.pnm
  
 So that I can try to figure ou what is happening ?
 
  Do you mean I should test with my old Sane version or with the
  new CVS?

 If the new CVS doesn't work, then please send me the log done
 with the newer version.

Sorry, Stef, I'm a stupid Suse10.3 user and install normally only 
rpm. I'm still working with sane-backends1.0.19-0-pm.2 genesys.

If I should install a new CVS, then I would need instruction.
-- 
Viele Gr??e
Werner Holtfreter

[sane-devel] problems with genesys and MD6228

2008-06-04 Thread stef

Le Wednesday 04 June 2008 20:17:07 Werner Holtfreter, vous avez ?crit?:
Am Dienstag, 3. Juni 2008 20:12:29 schrieb stef:
I not sure this would correct the problem you had a low
black and white resolution scans. If there is still some
problem, could you send me the debug log produced by running
theses commands in a shell:

export SANE_DEBUG_GENESYS=511
export SANE_DEBUG_GENESYS_GL646=511
scanimage -d genesys --resolution 50 2scan.log scan.pnm

So that I can try to figure ou what is happening ?

Do you mean I should test with my old Sane version or with the
new CVS?

If the new CVS doesn't work, then please send me the log done
with the newer version.

Sorry, Stef, I'm a stupid Suse10.3 user and install normally only
rpm. I'm still working with sane-backends1.0.19-0-pm.2 genesys.

If I should install a new CVS, then I would need instruction.
--
Viele Gr??e
Werner Holtfreter

Hello,

you can compile and test CVS without installing it system-wide. In a
command
shell, create a directory then 'cd' to it.
First you have to get the sources with (see
http://www.sane-project.org/cvs.html):

cvs -d:pserver:anonymous at cvs.alioth.debian.org:/cvsroot/sane login
cvs -z3 -d:pserver:anonymous at cvs.alioth.debian.org:/cvsroot/sane co
sane-backends

Once you have the sources, 'cd' to sane-backends, then configure the
build
with:
./configure --prefix=/usr --sysconfdir=/etc

then compile with:
make

Then you can use the attached 'genesys' script (which must be copied in
the
sane-backends/backend directory) and run it to test your scanner with the new
backend without installing it. It runs with full debug. You can edit it to
change resolution, width, height and coordinates. The scanned picture will be
in 'scan.pnm'.

In case you run any problem, let us know. If scan at low res don't
work, send
me the scan.log file produced by the script.

Regards,
Stef

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[sane-devel] Branch for sane-frontends

2008-06-04 Thread stef

Hello,

to maintain the curent 1.0.x version of sane-backends I propose to tag 
current sources with:
DEVEL_1_0_TRUNK

Then make a branch:
DEVEL_1_0_BRANCH

SANE 1.1 developments will use MAIN.

Is it OK ? I have modified sane-frontends to compile with SANE 1.1 and 
handle 
the SANE_STATUS_WARMING_UP. I'd like to check these changes in, but I think 
an administrator will have to tag sources first.

Regards,
Stef

[sane-devel] Please give me some help to solve the license issues in using sane

2008-06-05 Thread Wang Mengqiang

Hello, everyone,

My name is Wang mengqiang, I am expecting to get your help on development very
much.

I am investigating to develop a commerce driver on linux. I have studied the
sane project for some time. And, we are planning to develop the driver on sane.
But, I have some doubts on license of sane so, I'd like to get the answer from
sane directly.

1) In the development, we plan to use several special modules which do not
contain any open source code from sane or other party, because they contain
some tecnology that we do not want to open. So, that is, our backend is
composed of two parts, one part is open source code which we refer to the
source code from sane, and another part is one that should not be open. Of
course, the first part(open source part) will call the functions in the second
part(closed source part). After compiling and linking them together, we get the
backend. My questions is whether we can keep the second part closed in this
way, whether this way comform to the license of sane(GPL)? Please refer to
the attached image for the architecture.

2) If we can use above method to develop our commerce driver, is there any
limitation on the link, for example, static link during the compile, or dynamic
link when the backend is running?

Additionaly, I found one sentence like, in
http://www.sane-project.org/backend-writing.txt
Start
PROGRAMMING
---

* A backend library is always only one file (libsane-backendname.so).
Please do
not use multiple libraries e.g. for lower and higher level code.

end-

does it mean that the backend MUST be generated by static link in compiling, it
cannot dynamic link other library(dll), right?

3) Maybe, in some case, we will include some header files of sane in a file,
for example, to include file '/include/sane/sanei_backend.h'. Then, should we
open our source only because of this including?

Best Regards,

_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
_/
_/Mengqiang Wang

_/System Development Dept 5.

_/System Planning Development Div.
_/Canon Information Technology (Beijing) Co., Ltd.
_/12A Floor, Yingu Building
_/No. 9 Beishuanxi Rd.
_/Haidian District, Beijing 100080
_/China
_/Phone: +86-10-6280-0210 ext:702
_/Direct Line: +86-10-6280-0689
_/Fax: +86-10-6280-0695
_/e-mail: wangmengqiang at canon-ib.com.cn

_/http://www.canon-ib.com.cn

PRIVILEGE AND CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
The information in this email is intended for the named recipient(s) only.
This email may contain privileged and confidential information. If you
have received this email in error, please do not forward this email or
any contents therein, please delete this email immediately, and please
notify the sender immediately via email [wangmengqiang at canon-ib.com.cn]
or telephone [+86-10-6280-0210-702].

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[sane-devel] Visioneer 6200USB backend

2008-06-04 Thread Kyle Dickerson

I have a Visioneer 6200USB and am interested in trying to write a backend
for it, or at least providing as much information about the model as
possible.

I've taken the scanner apart to look at chip information, however I don't
know which of the chips are important to know about.  The board that has the
power and USB connectors on it has a metal plate over two chips.  This plate
makes no contact with anything and is soldered into place, so as far as I
can tell it's just there to be annoying.

The most advanced chip (one with most pins coming out) on the PCB that I can
see has the following information: EICI10440A E48A3-000 0019  One of the
chips underneath the metal plate says ESIC.  I can try to remove the plate,
but I am not entirely confident that I could do it without damaging
something.  I have pictures of each of the 3 boards that I found inside if
that would help.  I attempted to get a picture of the chips underneath the
metal plate, but I wasn't very successful.  I can try again when I have
better lighting, I think I'll be able to read the information off of one of
them.

I'm mostly looking for some guidance, as I have no idea how to proceed with
this.  I was going to try to contact Visioneer, but they don't list any
email addresses, and their only contact phone number for support is a 900
number (toll).

The output from sane-find-scanner -v -v is:
device descriptor of 0x0461/0x0345 at 001:005 (Primax USB Scanner)
bLength   18
bDescriptorType   1
bcdUSB1.00
bDeviceClass  0
bDeviceSubClass   0
bDeviceProtocol   0
bMaxPacketSize0   8
idVendor  0x0461
idProduct 0x0345
bcdDevice 0.01
iManufacturer 2 (Primax)
iProduct  1 (USB Scanner)
iSerialNumber 0 ()
bNumConfigurations1
 configuration 0
 bLength  9
 bDescriptorType  2
 wTotalLength 32
 bNumInterfaces   1
 bConfigurationValue  1
 iConfiguration   0 ()
 bmAttributes 64 (Self-powered)
 MaxPower 48 mA
  interface 0
   altsetting 0
   bLength9
   bDescriptorType4
   bInterfaceNumber   0
   bAlternateSetting  0
   bNumEndpoints  2
   bInterfaceClass16
   bInterfaceSubClass 1
   bInterfaceProtocol 0
   iInterface 0 ()
endpoint 0
bLength   7
bDescriptorType   5
bEndpointAddress  0x81 (in 0x01)
bmAttributes  2 (bulk)
wMaxPacketSize64
bInterval 0 ms
bRefresh  0
bSynchAddress 0
endpoint 1
bLength   7
bDescriptorType   5
bEndpointAddress  0x02 (out 0x02)
bmAttributes  2 (bulk)
wMaxPacketSize64
bInterval 0 ms
bRefresh  0
bSynchAddress 0

Thanks,
-Kyle Dickerson
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[sane-devel] Please give me some help to solve the license issues in using sane

2008-06-05 Thread Wang Mengqiang

Thank you for your reply and truth.

[sane-devel] Please give me some help to solve the license issues in using sane

2008-06-05 Thread Johannes Meixner


Hello,

On Jun 4 21:02 m. allan noah wrote (shortened):
 SANE is GPL, with an added exception to allow proprietary front-end
 programs to link against it. What you are suggesting is the opposite-
 you wish to have a free 'middleware' layer, which loads closed
 backends to do that actual work? I think this is in violation of the
 spirit of the license exception, though perhaps not the letter. Please
 read the file LICENSE in the sane-backends source, it attempts to
 clarify the situation, by specifically referring to the 'licensing
 status of the _program_ that uses the libraries', not the status of a
 library.

The issue was also mentioned in the SANE2, what do we want ?
mail thread, see for example
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/sane-devel/2008-April/021642.html

Could you explain what the reason behind is that proprietary
frontends are allowed but no proprietary plugins/modules
for free backends?

I.e. why are proprietary frontends considered to be acceptable
while dlopening proprietary plugins/modules by free backends
during runtime is considered to be evil?

Is it because a proprietary frontend does not reduce the freedom
of the user because there are also free frontends available
while a backend which needs proprietary stuff for certain scanners
reduces the freedom of the user when there is no free alternative
backend available?


I have another question:

Assume because of whatever reason a scanner manufacturer
cannot make a free backend (e.g. because of third-party
license stuff, or just because the upper management at the
manufacturer is full of fear that another manufacturer might
steal their one-and-only-best-way-to-drive-a-scanner)
but nevertheless wants to provide a SANE compatible driver.

How could he do it?

Would it be in compliance with the SANE license to do it
like HP does it for their proprietary ZJStream printers
(because of a third-party JBIG license issue):

HP's HPLIP sources are perfectly free and therefore we
take only the perfectly free upstream HPLIP sources,
compile them, and distribute a perfectly free hplip package.

We do not download and/or distribute any proprietray stuff
from HP.

But the perfectly free hplip package contains a perfectly
free hp-setup tool which takes care of everything regarding
their proprietray stuff, for example:
- display the EULA,
- download the right proprietray stuff from the right server,
- install the proprietary stuff at the right place
   with the right permissions
- set up the device accordingly,
- whatever else...

In case of HPLIP any proprietary stuff happens only between
the end-user and HP.

Therefore - at least from my point of view - the proprietary
stuff form HP is ideal because there is nothing a distributor
or re-distributor has to care about.

We provide only a free tool (hp-setup) so that the end-user
has an easy out-of-the-box experience to set up even hardware
which requires proprietary software.


As far as I know the GPL does not forbid that an end-user
installs and runs whatever proprietary stuff on his machine.

Therefore I think that it is in compliance with the GPL
to have a GPL installation tool which installs proprietary
stuff.

As far as I know the GPL cares only about the licensing
of source code and therefore it is very important to
be aware of the strict distinction between source code
and whatever binary stuff.

For example - as far as I know - it is a GPL license violation
to have whatever binary stuff in a GPL source code package.

As far as I know any tiny bit of whatever proprietary stuff
(regardless if it is binary stuff or proprietary source code)
in a source code package makes the whole source code package
a proprietary package.

But I am neither a lawyer nor a GPL expert!


You may like to have a look e.g. at
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/sane-devel/2008-April/021822.html
and
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/sane-devel/2008-April/021911.html


Kind Regards
Johannes Meixner
-- 
SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstrasse 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany
AG Nuernberg, HRB 16746, GF: Markus Rex

[sane-devel] Visioneer 6200USB backend

2008-06-05 Thread Anderson Lizardo

2008/6/5 Kyle Dickerson kyle.dickerson at gmail.com:
 I have a Visioneer 6200USB and am interested in trying to write a backend
 for it, or at least providing as much information about the model as
 possible.

I don't have this scanner, but you may want to try the source code
from this link: http://viceo.orconhosting.net.nz/index.html. It's very
old, but it's supposed to support a number of Visioneer/Primax USB
scanners.

Regards,
-- 
Anderson Lizardo

[sane-devel] Please give me some help to solve the license issues in using sane

2008-06-05 Thread Daniel Glöckner

Hello,

On  5 Jun 08 08:28, Wang Mengqiang wrote:
 1) In the development, we plan to use several special modules  which do not 
 contain any open source code from sane or other party, because they contain 
 some tecnology that we do not want to open.

May I ask what functionality is contained in these modules?

It may sound naive, but usually a scanner driver just needs to write some 
registers and accept the incoming image data.
I don't see what needs to be hidden in that process.

If it is the meaning of the registers you want to hide, I think it is
acceptable if you obfuscate the sourcecode that deals with these registers.
Just don't use descriptive names.

Maybe it is possible to make your driver compile with a reduced set of
functionality that doesn't need those closed source modules.
It will have more acceptance in the community than a driver that needs
closed source parts.

If you want to implement image processing algorithms (dust removal,
ICC profiles, descreening), don't. This should be done in frontends.


Last year Canon released Linux drivers for the MP scanners that require a
closed source module. We have never heard of anyone successfully using this
driver. On the other hand there is the open source pixma driver that is
actively developed to handle the same scanners.

What I want to say is that if there was anything essential that Canon needed
to hide in those closed source modules, it has been exposed by that little
reverse engineering done by the pixma driver developers. And still nobody
knows what secrets have been exposed.


While it is nice to talk to developers that want to respect the GPL in their
commercial products, it would be better if we can avoid having to find a
compromise by convincing those that object an open source approach.

  Daniel

[sane-devel] Please give me some help to solve the license issues in using sane

2008-06-05 Thread Johannes Meixner


Hello,

On Jun 5 15:55 Daniel Gl?ckner wrote (shortened):
 It may sound naive, but usually a scanner driver just needs to write some
 registers and accept the incoming image data.
 I don't see what needs to be hidden in that process.
...
 Maybe it is possible to make your driver compile with a reduced set of
 functionality that doesn't need those closed source modules.
...
 If you want to implement image processing algorithms (dust removal,
 ICC profiles, descreening), don't. This should be done in frontends.
...
 While it is nice to talk to developers that want to respect the GPL in their
 commercial products, it would be better if we can avoid having to find a
 compromise by convincing those that object an open source approach.

Many thanks to point this out!

Of course I fully agree!

Unfortunately according to my experience with printer manufacturers
they make very often the mistake that they like to provide a single
big-and-fat-all-in-one-full-featured driver monster instead of well
seperated parts.

Compare
http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:Information_for_Printer_Manufacturers_Regarding_Linux_Support

The ideas behind are exactly the same for printers and scanners
but unfortunately (I have no idea why) only a few manufacturers
seem to understand the enormous benefit of free drivers:
---
The advantage for the ... manufacturer is that he will
receive comprehensive Linux support for his devices
* in all products ...
* on all hardware platforms ...
* for new versions of the products ...
without any extra expenses for the ... manufacturer. 
---

But also note the ZJStream example.
Here the license issue is directly related to the low-level
protocol how to send raw data to a ZJStream printer.


Kind Regards
Johannes Meixner
-- 
SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstrasse 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany
AG Nuernberg, HRB 16746, GF: Markus Rex

[sane-devel] Please give me some help to solve the license issues in using sane

2008-06-05 Thread m. allan noah

On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 3:49 AM, Johannes Meixner jsmeix at suse.de wrote:

 Hello,

 On Jun 4 21:02 m. allan noah wrote (shortened):

 SANE is GPL, with an added exception to allow proprietary front-end
 programs to link against it. What you are suggesting is the opposite-
 you wish to have a free 'middleware' layer, which loads closed
 backends to do that actual work? I think this is in violation of the
 spirit of the license exception, though perhaps not the letter. Please
 read the file LICENSE in the sane-backends source, it attempts to
 clarify the situation, by specifically referring to the 'licensing
 status of the _program_ that uses the libraries', not the status of a
 library.

 The issue was also mentioned in the SANE2, what do we want ?
 mail thread, see for example
 http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/sane-devel/2008-April/021642.html

 Could you explain what the reason behind is that proprietary
 frontends are allowed but no proprietary plugins/modules
 for free backends?


Please note that I was not around when the SANE license exception was
added, but i have tried to research the spirit of the decision. I
think the idea was that proprietary frontends were considered a
value-add by some (and a necessary evil by others), but proprietary
backends specifically remove the freedom of the user. It is
unfortunate that the wording of the exception does not make this more
clear.

 I have another question:

 Assume because of whatever reason a scanner manufacturer
 cannot make a free backend (e.g. because of third-party
 license stuff, or just because the upper management at the
 manufacturer is full of fear that another manufacturer might
 steal their one-and-only-best-way-to-drive-a-scanner)
 but nevertheless wants to provide a SANE compatible driver.

 How could he do it?

Simple- he must recreate any parts of sane that are not in the public
domain, which he wishes to use in his backend. Sane is not here to
provide sanei for proprietary backends to steal.

 Would it be in compliance with the SANE license to do it
 like HP does it for their proprietary ZJStream printers
 (because of a third-party JBIG license issue):

Not in my opinion, since this requires more than an installer, there
must be some free code somewhere that does a dlopen on some
proprietary code, which could be interpreted to violate the GPL.

snip


 As far as I know the GPL does not forbid that an end-user
 installs and runs whatever proprietary stuff on his machine.

no, but it seems to forbid that _code_ under the GPL load proprietary
code in order to function.

allan
-- 
The truth is an offense, but not a sin

[sane-devel] Please give me some help to solve the license issues in using sane

2008-06-05 Thread Alessandro Zummo

On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:02:08 +0800
Wang Mengqiang WangMengqiang at canon-ib.com.cn wrote:

 Thank you for your reply and truth.
 
 From your reply, it seems there is no way to use other modules, for example, 
 if we buy some modules from other company without source code, how to deal 
 with it?  Would you please give me some suggestion for commerce development 
 like this?
  I agree to your opinion that we should not violate the spirit of freedom 
 through the middle-ware layer. Our idea is to open as much as we can (  not 
 to open all), but not to close as much as possible. 

 You might choice to buy the source code from the other
 company or to develop equivalent code yourself.

 You can also ask open source developers to help. I'm sure
 that if documentation is given, you will find people who
 are willing to help.

 If documentation is not given, you will probably
 find someone that will reverse engineer the protocol,
 sooner or later :)


-- 

 Best regards,

 Alessandro Zummo,
  Tower Technologies - Torino, Italy

  http://www.towertech.it

[sane-devel] Visioneer 6200USB backend

2008-06-05 Thread Kyle Dickerson

Looking through the information on the viceo.orconhosting.net site, it shows
my scanner as being unsupported due to using the E5 chipset.
I did find some more information by digging through the files included with
the Windows Driver. One of the files (Hardware.ini) looks like it contains
sections with information for 4 models: 6200, 6400, 8100, 8600. The 8600 is
listed on that site as supported and using the E4 chipset. There are also
released drivers for WinXP for the 8100 and 8600. There's also a binary
file protocol.ds, looking through it with a hex editor I didn't find any
helpful strings, but perhaps that file would be helpful to someone else?

Unfortunately the driver is only good for Win98, 98se, and 2000-- and I
don't have any of those operating systems. It does not work with WinXP. So
I have no way of running that actual driver, unless I can find an old
machine, or at least an install disc (I don't mind setting up a virtual
machine to try getting it to work).

m. allan noah has told me that I either need to get a windows trace and post
it. Or start with a simple libusb program and attempt to reverse engineer it
from there.

Thanks for the help,
-Kyle

On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 4:58 AM, Anderson Lizardo anderson.lizardo at gmail.com
wrote:

2008/6/5 Kyle Dickerson kyle.dickerson at gmail.com:
I have a Visioneer 6200USB and am interested in trying to write a backend
for it, or at least providing as much information about the model as
possible.

I don't have this scanner, but you may want to try the source code
from this link: http://viceo.orconhosting.net.nz/index.html. It's very
old, but it's supposed to support a number of Visioneer/Primax USB
scanners.

Regards,
--
Anderson Lizardo

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[sane-devel] Please give me some help to solve the license issues in using sane

2008-06-06 Thread Olaf Meeuwissen

Johannes Meixner jsmeix at suse.de writes:

 I have another question:

 Assume because of whatever reason a scanner manufacturer
 cannot make a free backend (e.g. because of third-party
 license stuff, or just because the upper management at the
 manufacturer is full of fear that another manufacturer might
 steal their one-and-only-best-way-to-drive-a-scanner)
 but nevertheless wants to provide a SANE compatible driver.

 How could he do it?

The hard way: reinvent the wheel for everything that is only available
under licensing conditions that are not compatible with the ones that
manufacturer wants to use.

Same manufacturer should get legal council, read and understand the
GPL and become intimitaly familiar with the GPL FAQ[1], especially all
the information in the section Combining work with code released
under the GNU licenses, if it wants to re-use any GPL'd source code
(with or without exceptions) either directly or via linking or
dynamically loading libraries.

[1] http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html

 [snip HP example case]

 In case of HPLIP any proprietary stuff happens only between
 the end-user and HP.

That is not the issue.  GPL related issues are typically tied to
programs, not to the steps used to find and install the various
pieces needed to use them.

 Therefore - at least from my point of view - the proprietary
 stuff form HP is ideal because there is nothing a distributor
 or re-distributor has to care about.

Convenient in case there are redistribution restrictions on the HP
stuff, but it still doesn't absolve HP from taking care of any GPL
related runtime issues.

 As far as I know the GPL does not forbid that an end-user
 installs and runs whatever proprietary stuff on his machine.

True if and only if the proprietary stuff does not re-use GPL'd bits.

 Therefore I think that it is in compliance with the GPL
 to have a GPL installation tool which installs proprietary
 stuff.

True if and only if the proprietary stuff does not re-use GPL'd bits.

 As far as I know the GPL cares only about the licensing
 of source code and therefore it is very important to
 be aware of the strict distinction between source code
 and whatever binary stuff.

Licenses are attached to the source code.  However, licensing terms
can have a lot to say about how you are allowed to use that source
code .  That includes privileges and restrictions about how you may
use and may not use the resulting binary stuff.

 For example - as far as I know - it is a GPL license violation
 to have whatever binary stuff in a GPL source code package.

Not true.  First of all, it utterly depends on the licensing condition
of the binary stuff.  Even if these are not compatible with the GPL,
it is still no problem to combine GPL'd source code and incompatibly
licensed binary stuff in a single package or distribution unit.

The picture changes a bit when we start looking at the results of the
build process.  If the program resulting from GPL'd code uses or is
used by the incompatibly licensed binary stuff, then that is _almost_
always a problem.

A good rule of thumb is to look at what happens at run-time.  If GPL
incompatible binary stuff and binary bits built from GPL'd source code
are used by a _single_ process (as jugded by PID), then that's a big
fat violation.  However, if both parts run as separate processes (so
they have different PIDs) and communicate via a socket or some other
IPC mechanism, using a trivial or open, well-documented protocol, then
that is not a violation.

 As far as I know any tiny bit of whatever proprietary stuff
 (regardless if it is binary stuff or proprietary source code)
 in a source code package makes the whole source code package
 a proprietary package.

As explained above, that's not true.  Of course, packaging your stuff
that way is probably not a great idea.  It makes it cumbersome for
redistributors to figure out whether or not your packages, be they
source or otherwise, are legally distributable.  If anything, packages
benefit from sticking to a single, well-known license.  Unfortunately,
it is almost never possible to do so and the result may be a license
violation, GPL or otherwise, if the _combined_ licensing terms are in
one way or another incompatible.

# It's really just an exercise in establishing the simultaneous
# satisfiability of the total set of licensing terms but the way them
# lawyer folks write down those terms makes it far from a trivial
# exercise.

 But I am neither a lawyer nor a GPL expert!

Same story here, but hands-on experience with a GPL violation has
taught me a thing or two (and made me sign up as an FSF Associate
Member ;-).

 You may like to have a look e.g. at
 http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/sane-devel/2008-April/021822.html
 and
 http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/sane-devel/2008-April/021911.html

Hope this helps,
-- 
Olaf Meeuwissen   FLOSS Engineer -- AVASYS Corporation
FSF Associate Member #1962   sign up at

[sane-devel] Please give me some help to solve the license issues in using sane

2008-06-06 Thread Olaf Meeuwissen

m. allan noah kitno455 at gmail.com writes:

 On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 3:49 AM, Johannes Meixner jsmeix at suse.de wrote:

 Hello,

 On Jun 4 21:02 m. allan noah wrote (shortened):

 SANE is GPL, with an added exception to allow proprietary front-end
 programs to link against it. What you are suggesting is the opposite-
 you wish to have a free 'middleware' layer, which loads closed
 backends to do that actual work? I think this is in violation of the
 spirit of the license exception, though perhaps not the letter. Please
 read the file LICENSE in the sane-backends source, it attempts to
 clarify the situation, by specifically referring to the 'licensing
 status of the _program_ that uses the libraries', not the status of a
 library.

 The issue was also mentioned in the SANE2, what do we want ?
 mail thread, see for example
 http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/sane-devel/2008-April/021642.html

 Could you explain what the reason behind is that proprietary
 frontends are allowed but no proprietary plugins/modules
 for free backends?


 Please note that I was not around when the SANE license exception was
 added, but i have tried to research the spirit of the decision. I
 think the idea was that proprietary frontends were considered a
 value-add by some (and a necessary evil by others), but proprietary
 backends specifically remove the freedom of the user. It is
 unfortunate that the wording of the exception does not make this more
 clear.

Actually, the same value-add logic applies to backends and the same
removal of freedom argument holds for the frontends.  However, in the
case of frontends, we already have unencumbered alternatives.  With
backends this is (somewhat?) less likely to be the case.  Maybe that
explains the attempt at exerting more pressure on backend writers?

 I have another question:

 Assume because of whatever reason a scanner manufacturer
 cannot make a free backend (e.g. because of third-party
 license stuff, or just because the upper management at the
 manufacturer is full of fear that another manufacturer might
 steal their one-and-only-best-way-to-drive-a-scanner)
 but nevertheless wants to provide a SANE compatible driver.

 How could he do it?

 Simple- he must recreate any parts of sane that are not in the public
 domain, which he wishes to use in his backend. Sane is not here to
 provide sanei for proprietary backends to steal.

 Would it be in compliance with the SANE license to do it
 like HP does it for their proprietary ZJStream printers
 (because of a third-party JBIG license issue):

 Not in my opinion, since this requires more than an installer, there
 must be some free code somewhere that does a dlopen on some
 proprietary code, which could be interpreted to violate the GPL.

If GPL'd code uses a non-compatible library via dlopen that's just as
much a violation as linking to it directly.  The code runs in the same
process space.  That makes the combined work a derivative, so, all the
terms of the GPL need to be met.

# If the GPL'd code is really GPL with an exception that allows this
# particular scenario, then that is not a violation.

 snip


 As far as I know the GPL does not forbid that an end-user
 installs and runs whatever proprietary stuff on his machine.

 no, but it seems to forbid that _code_ under the GPL load proprietary
 code in order to function.

The GPL does not explicitly forbid this.  It merely requires that any
such proprietary code meets the conditions spelt out in the GPL ;-)
-- 
Olaf Meeuwissen   FLOSS Engineer -- AVASYS Corporation
FSF Associate Member #1962   sign up at http://member.fsf.org/

[sane-devel] Please give me some help to solve the license issues in using sane

2008-06-05 Thread kilg...@banach.math.auburn.edu


Wang Mengqiang,

I am not one of the regular SANE developers, but I am quite active in 
another, similar project, Gphoto, which supports digital still cameras. I 
find this thread interesting because it raises issues which affect us all. 
I hope very much that the SANE developers will not mind if I join this 
discussion.

Wang (or should I address you by Mengqiang; please excuse my 
ignorance of your national customs), thank you very much for bringing 
these questions to us.

Why do I say this in spite of the fact that some of the answers you got 
seem to be somewhat negative? The reason I say this is that any kind of 
communication at all with hardware manufacturers is practically impossible 
for us to carry out. It seems that there is an extreme cultural divide and 
lack of understanding. Far more typical it is that we, free software 
developers, send letters or e-mails and we get totally ignored. Just as a 
recent example, three days ago, I sent to a company in Taiwan a very 
polite request for information about a certain camera chip. It was not the 
first time that I tried to write to them. This request, just like all 
previous ones, has obviously been simply ignored. I know for a fact, too, 
that the SANE project has similar difficulties of communication as we do. 
I would like to take this seeming opportunity to ask you why such 
communication problems exist. Why is the most usual response to any such 
request from any of us simply to ignore the request and not even to 
acknowledge that the request has been received?

I can imagine several reasons behind this lack of two-way communication. I 
do not know which, if any, of the following apply, or whether the problem 
is something else. Please help me understand:

1. Somehow we do not know how to address our letters properly, or how to 
ask in a manner which is perceived as polite. Some of us may be guilty of 
that. In my case, at least, and in the case of most individuals who have 
some cross-cultural knowledge, we do not knowingly do that.

2. Somehow it is perceived that we are in competition with the company. If 
this is the situation, then I do not understand. We are not in the 
business of making hardware, whether processor chips, scanners, or 
cameras. We do not intend to enter such business and thereby to rob the 
sons and daughters of other countries of the ability to earn a decent 
living. We are interested in making the hardware work, possibly to work 
better, and to write good support software for it. We would be even 
happier to do this in active cooperation with hardware manufacturers, 
believe me, and it also appears to me that they would thereby sell more 
hardware.

3. Perhaps the manufacturer perceives that cooperation with us would 
impair the relationships with the other companies which write the software 
drivers for the hardware. If so, I do not completely understand this, 
either. Our software is not intended to run on Microsoft Windows, the 
dominant operating system. Rather, it is intended to work on operating 
systems for which the hardware makers are typically not providing software 
drivers, at all. Thus, I fail to understand how we are competition for the 
software houses which write the drivers and interface programs for the 
hardware.

4. It may be perceived that there are secrets in the functioning of the 
hardware, and to have open interface programs for said hardware would 
release the secrets into the wild. I believe that this is a false 
conclusion. For, if the hardware functions well and is appropriately 
priced it will have a ready market whether there is an open-sourced driver 
for it or not. In that case, the users of systems such as Linux, whose 
numbers seem to increase, are happier with manufacturers whose hardware 
can be supported and are more willing to spend their money for that 
hardware. Also most people are in fact not curious about the inner 
workings of things and it would do no harm to any manufacturer with that 
great majority even if the information were shouted from the housetops.

5. Perhaps it is believed that we want to see the source code of the 
Windows support software, and that cannot be given out because it belongs 
to some third party. Well, that would be one way to give us the 
information. But it would also be quite sufficient if we were given 
adequate detailed, descriptive information. We after all are in the 
business of writing source code and do not need to copy into Linux some 
source code which was written for Windows. Quite to the contrary, the only 
things we would be interested in are the basics of the interaction with 
the hardware, any data compression algorithms used for imaging data, and 
such as that. We do not even particularly want to know how things get done 
in Microsoft Windows. Most of us do not want to use that operating system.

Finally, please also remember that in computer hardware there are 
ultimately no secrets. Someone who is determined will discover all

[sane-devel] Branch for sane-frontends

2008-06-06 Thread stef

Le Thursday 05 June 2008 14:00:22 m. allan noah, vous avez ?crit?:
 On 6/4/08, stef stef.dev at free.fr wrote:
  Hello,
 
  to maintain the curent 1.0.x version of sane-backends I propose
  to tag current sources with:
   DEVEL_1_0_TRUNK

 i just made this tag.

  Then make a branch:
   DEVEL_1_0_BRANCH

 i did not make the branch, we can make it later from the tag if we
 want to do another 1.0 release.

 allan
 --
 The truth is an offense, but not a sin

Thanks allan.

I have committed the changes for sane-frontends to work with SANE 1.1. 
However the newer image formats are not yet handled since I have no real 
hardware or virtual device to test them with.

Regards,
Stef

[sane-devel] Please give me some help to solve the license issues in using sane

2008-06-06 Thread Johannes Meixner


Hello,

On Jun 5 11:30 m. allan noah wrote (shortened):
 Sane is not here to provide sanei for proprietary backends to steal.

Many thanks!
Now it is clear for me!

Kind Regards
Johannes Meixner
-- 
SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstrasse 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany
AG Nuernberg, HRB 16746, GF: Markus Rex

[sane-devel] Please give me some help to solve the license issues in using sane

2008-06-06 Thread Wang Mengqiang

Theodore Kilgore,

Thank you for your ardent reply. 

 I feel your earnest expectation to improve the communication with hardware 
manufacture. But, very sorry, I am afraid I have no ability to take this 
responsibility.

Thank you sharing the possible reasons on the block of  communication. 
Whatever, please don't consume too much time to annoy yourself. The 
communication and cooperation must base on the common interest ,or benefit 
especially for commerce. So, I think, the major factor is whether the hardware 
manufacturer's has the relative strategy and whether manufaturer will obtain, 
but not lost  the benefit. You know, company has to keep careful to business 
secret against competitor, and risk of patent or license. IMHO, a developer can 
be proud that he is able to learn more knowledge by interrup, inverse 
programming,  but  as a company it has to consider whether it is proper or 
legal.  

In fact, I understand and respect the spirit of open and free in open source 
world. I feel it will be very important and meaningful if open source and 
commerce(non open source) software can benefit each other in the cooperation. 
Maybe, it need understanding and some concede from both sides. it is necessary 
to avoid either absolute commerce or absolute free. That will benefit the end 
user finally.  

your politeness and enthusiasm impressed me deeply.  very glad to exchange 
personal opinion. 
Wang mengqiang
 

;-Original Message-
;From: kilgota at banach.math.auburn.edu 
;[mailto:kilgota at banach.math.auburn.edu] 
;Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 9:00 AM
;To: Alessandro Zummo
;Cc: Wang Mengqiang; SPD-GW; sane-devel at lists.alioth.debian.org
;Subject: Re: [sane-devel] Please give me some help to solve 
;the license issues in using sane
;
;
;Wang Mengqiang,
;
;I am not one of the regular SANE developers, but I am quite 
;active in another, similar project, Gphoto, which supports 
;digital still cameras. I find this thread interesting because 
;it raises issues which affect us all. 
;I hope very much that the SANE developers will not mind if I 
;join this discussion.
;
;Wang (or should I address you by Mengqiang; please excuse my 
;ignorance of your national customs), thank you very much for 
;bringing these questions to us.
;
;Why do I say this in spite of the fact that some of the 
;answers you got seem to be somewhat negative? The reason I 
;say this is that any kind of communication at all with 
;hardware manufacturers is practically impossible for us to 
;carry out. It seems that there is an extreme cultural divide 
;and lack of understanding. Far more typical it is that we, 
;free software developers, send letters or e-mails and we get 
;totally ignored. Just as a recent example, three days ago, I 
;sent to a company in Taiwan a very polite request for 
;information about a certain camera chip. It was not the first 
;time that I tried to write to them. This request, just like 
;all previous ones, has obviously been simply ignored. I know 
;for a fact, too, that the SANE project has similar 
;difficulties of communication as we do. 
;I would like to take this seeming opportunity to ask you why 
;such communication problems exist. Why is the most usual 
;response to any such request from any of us simply to ignore 
;the request and not even to acknowledge that the request has 
;been received?
;
;I can imagine several reasons behind this lack of two-way 
;communication. I do not know which, if any, of the following 
;apply, or whether the problem is something else. Please help 
;me understand:
;
;1. Somehow we do not know how to address our letters 
;properly, or how to ask in a manner which is perceived as 
;polite. Some of us may be guilty of that. In my case, at 
;least, and in the case of most individuals who have some 
;cross-cultural knowledge, we do not knowingly do that.
;
;2. Somehow it is perceived that we are in competition with 
;the company. If this is the situation, then I do not 
;understand. We are not in the business of making hardware, 
;whether processor chips, scanners, or cameras. We do not 
;intend to enter such business and thereby to rob the sons and 
;daughters of other countries of the ability to earn a decent 
;living. We are interested in making the hardware work, 
;possibly to work better, and to write good support software 
;for it. We would be even happier to do this in active 
;cooperation with hardware manufacturers, believe me, and it 
;also appears to me that they would thereby sell more hardware.
;
;3. Perhaps the manufacturer perceives that cooperation with 
;us would impair the relationships with the other companies 
;which write the software drivers for the hardware. If so, I 
;do not completely understand this, either. Our software is 
;not intended to run on Microsoft Windows, the dominant 
;operating system. Rather, it is intended to work on operating 
;systems for which the hardware makers are typically not 
;providing software drivers, at all. Thus, I

[sane-devel] Please give me some help to solve the license issues in using sane

2008-06-06 Thread Johannes Meixner


Hello,

On 5 Jun Wang Mengqiang wrote (shortened):
 we plan to use several special modules  which do not contain
 any open source code from sane or other party, because they
 contain some tecnology that we do not want to open.
 So, that is, our backend is composed of two parts,
 one part is open source code which we refer to the source
 code from sane, and another part is one that should not be open.
 Of course, the first part(open source part) will call the
 functions in the second part(closed source part).
 After compiling and linking them together, we get the backend.

On Jun 5 Daniel Gl?ckner wrote (shortened):
 ... usually a scanner driver just needs to write some
 registers and accept the incoming image data.
...
 If you want to implement image processing algorithms
 (dust removal, ICC profiles, descreening), don't.
 This should be done in frontends.

On Jun 5 Theodore Kilgore wrote (shortened):
 ... the only things we would be interested in are the basics
 of the interaction with the hardware, any data compression
 algorithms used for imaging data

On Jun 5 Allan Noah wrote (shortened):
 SANE is GPL, with an added exception to allow proprietary
 front-end programs to link against it.
...
 Sane is not here to provide sanei for proprietary
 backends to steal.

On Jun 6 Olaf Meeuwissen wrote (shortened):
 If GPL'd code uses a non-compatible library via dlopen that's just as
 much a violation as linking to it directly.  The code runs in the same
 process space.  That makes the combined work a derivative, so, all the
 terms of the GPL need to be met.
...
 A good rule of thumb is to look at what happens at run-time.  If GPL
 incompatible binary stuff and binary bits built from GPL'd source code
 are used by a _single_ process (as jugded by PID), then that's a big
 fat violation.  However, if both parts run as separate processes (so
 they have different PIDs) and communicate via a socket or some other
 IPC mechanism, using a trivial or open, well-documented protocol, then
 that is not a violation.


Unfortunately Wang Mengqiang didn't tell what kind of
functionality it is which they do not want to open.
Is it basic scanner I/O functionality, or is it data
compression algorithms, or image processing algorithms?

Nevertheless I like to try a proposal how it might be done.

When the backend uses SANE I/O functionality (sanei),
it must be under GPL.

Because the license issue is at least not very clear,
the backend cannot link with proprietary stuff.

But the backend could fork a separated process which runs
whatever proprietary executable and communicate with it
via whatever IPC mechanism e.g. a socket or even via
traditional pipes, see for example the IJS interface
http://hplip.sourceforge.net/tech_docs/hpijs.html

Therefore only the part which does the basic I/O must be
under GPL but e.g. data compression algorithms could run
as proprietary executable in a separated process.

A different case are image processing algorithms which
should run in the frontend. Because of the exception in SANE
this can be done in a proprietary frontend executable.


Therefore it might be done as follows:

When a free frontend is used:
--
/usr/bin/scanimage (SANE frontend): GPL
   |
   | link via dlopen
   |
/usr/lib/libsane.so (SANE dll meta-backend): GPL
   |
   | link via dlopen
   |
/usr/lib/sane/libsane-backend.so (basic I/O backend): GPL
   |
   | whatever IPC mechanism
   |
/usr/bin/canoncompress (data compression): proprietary executable
--

When a proprietary frontend is used:
--
/usr/bin/canonscan (frontend with image processing): proprietary
   |
   | link via dlopen
   |
/usr/lib/libsane.so (SANE dll meta-backend): GPL
   |
   | link via dlopen
   |
/usr/lib/sane/libsane-backend.so (basic I/O backend): GPL
   |
   | whatever IPC mechanism
   |
/usr/bin/canoncompress (data compression): proprietary executable
--

I would appreciate your comments.


Kind Regards
Johannes Meixner
-- 
SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstrasse 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany
AG Nuernberg, HRB 16746, GF: Markus Rex

[sane-devel] Please give me some help to solve the license issues in using sane

On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 09:24:25 +0900
Olaf Meeuwissen olaf.meeuwissen at avasys.jp wrote:
 
 If GPL'd code uses a non-compatible library via dlopen that's just as
 much a violation as linking to it directly.  The code runs in the same
 process space.  That makes the combined work a derivative, so, all the
 terms of the GPL need to be met.

 I'm not a lawyer, but I'm not sure of this. I always thought
 that using dynamic linking would allow for a proper separation
 of GPL/non-GPL code.

 That means that a GPL caller and a non-GPL library should be
 ok, while the inverse it's not.


 right?

-- 

 Best regards,

 Alessandro Zummo,
  Tower Technologies - Torino, Italy

  http://www.towertech.it

[sane-devel] Please give me some help to solve the license issues in using sane

2008-06-06 Thread m. allan noah

On 6/6/08, Alessandro Zummo azummo-lists at towertech.it wrote:
 On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 09:24:25 +0900

 Olaf Meeuwissen olaf.meeuwissen at avasys.jp wrote:
  

  If GPL'd code uses a non-compatible library via dlopen that's just as
   much a violation as linking to it directly.  The code runs in the same
   process space.  That makes the combined work a derivative, so, all the
   terms of the GPL need to be met.


  I'm not a lawyer, but I'm not sure of this. I always thought
   that using dynamic linking would allow for a proper separation
   of GPL/non-GPL code.

   That means that a GPL caller and a non-GPL library should be
   ok, while the inverse it's not.

gpl faq is pretty clear on this one:

If the modules are included in the same executable file, they are
definitely combined in one program. If modules are designed to run
linked together in a shared address space, that almost surely means
combining them into one program.

By contrast, pipes, sockets and command-line arguments are
communication mechanisms normally used between two separate programs.
So when they are used for communication, the modules normally are
separate programs. But if the semantics of the communication are
intimate enough, exchanging complex internal data structures, that too
could be a basis to consider the two parts as combined into a larger
program.

source: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#MereAggregation

allan
-- 
The truth is an offense, but not a sin

[sane-devel] Please give me some help to solve the license issues in using sane

On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:54:13 -0400
m. allan noah kitno455 at gm
 
 gpl faq is pretty clear on this one:
 
 If the modules are included in the same executable file, they are
 definitely combined in one program. If modules are designed to run
 linked together in a shared address space, that almost surely means
 combining them into one program.

 Ok, but where it is saying that a GPL app cannot use a non GPL
 library?

 I think the faq has been written from the point of view
 of someone who tries to use a GPL library in a closed
 source program.

 Here we have a GPL app that may be using a closed source
 library. Unless the license of the library forbids that,
 it should be fine, right?


-- 

 Best regards,

 Alessandro Zummo,
  Tower Technologies - Torino, Italy

  http://www.towertech.it

[sane-devel] Please give me some help to solve the license issues in using sane

2008-06-06 Thread m. allan noah

On 6/6/08, Alessandro Zummo azummo-lists at towertech.it wrote:
 On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:54:13 -0400
  m. allan noah kitno455 at gm

 
   gpl faq is pretty clear on this one:
  
   If the modules are included in the same executable file, they are
   definitely combined in one program. If modules are designed to run
   linked together in a shared address space, that almost surely means
   combining them into one program.


  Ok, but where it is saying that a GPL app cannot use a non GPL
   library?

   I think the faq has been written from the point of view
   of someone who tries to use a GPL library in a closed
   source program.


   Here we have a GPL app that may be using a closed source
   library. Unless the license of the library forbids that,
   it should be fine, right?

no, the GPL is all about derivative works and combining code, it makes
no difference the direction:

However, in many cases you can distribute the GPL-covered software
alongside your proprietary system. To do this validly, you must make
sure that the free and non-free programs communicate at arms length,
that they are not combined in a way that would make them effectively a
single program.

The difference between this and incorporating the GPL-covered
software is partly a matter of substance and partly form. The
substantive part is this: if the two programs are combined so that
they become effectively two parts of one program, then you can't treat
them as two separate programs. So the GPL has to cover the whole
thing.

source:

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#GPLInProprietarySystem

also:

I'd like to incorporate GPL-covered software in my proprietary
system. Can I do this by putting a wrapper module, under a
GPL-compatible lax permissive license (such as the X11 license) in
between the GPL-covered part and the proprietary part?

No. The X11 license is compatible with the GPL, so you can add a
module to the GPL-covered program and put it under the X11 license.
But if you were to incorporate them both in a larger program, that
whole would include the GPL-covered part, so it would have to be
licensed as a whole under the GNU GPL.

The fact that proprietary module A communicates with GPL-covered
module C only through X11-licensed module B is legally irrelevant;
what matters is the fact that module C is included in the whole.

source:

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#GPLWrapper

You'll notice that both of these quotes hinge on the definition of
'incorporation', which the GPL seems to define primarily as running
under the same PID, with no matter which part (the program or the
library) is the GPL part.

allan
-- 
The truth is an offense, but not a sin

[sane-devel] Please give me some help to solve the license issues in using sane

2008-06-06 Thread kilg...@banach.math.auburn.edu



On Fri, 6 Jun 2008, Wang Mengqiang wrote:

 Theodore Kilgore,

 Thank you for your ardent reply.

 I feel your earnest expectation to improve the communication with hardware 
 manufacture. But, very sorry, I am afraid I have no ability to take this 
 responsibility.

 Thank you sharing the possible reasons on the block of  communication. 
 Whatever, please don't consume too much time to annoy yourself. The 
 communication and cooperation must base on the common interest ,or benefit 
 especially for commerce. So, I think, the major factor is whether the 
 hardware manufacturer's has the relative strategy and whether manufaturer 
 will obtain, but not lost  the benefit. You know, company has to keep careful 
 to business secret against competitor, and risk of patent or license. IMHO, a 
 developer can be proud that he is able to learn more knowledge by interrup, 
 inverse programming,  but  as a company it has to consider whether it is 
 proper or legal.

 In fact, I understand and respect the spirit of open and free in open source 
 world. I feel it will be very important and meaningful if open source and 
 commerce(non open source) software can benefit each other in the cooperation. 
 Maybe, it need understanding and some concede from both sides. it is 
 necessary to avoid either absolute commerce or absolute free. That will 
 benefit the end user finally.

 your politeness and enthusiasm impressed me deeply.  very glad to exchange 
 personal opinion.
 Wang mengqiang


Thank you very much for the reply. I am aware that there are issues and 
problems, and I totally agree that there needs to be dialog. The 
difficulty is, as I see it, there has been no dialog. Communication needs 
to take place in both directions and it does not. These are the facts as I 
have experienced them. I mean, if a company would at least reply and say 
that We cannot release any information about X, because of the following 
issues then that would be a reply, would it not? And then perhaps there 
would be something to talk about. But in my experience there is not even a 
reply. We all have our sensitivities. I mentioned politeness. If one sends 
to someone a request for information, which seems not unreasonable to the 
sender, and the request is not even dignified with a response, then that 
does not seem very polite, either. I mention this while we are on the 
topic of possible cultural differences and sources of misunderstanding.

Now, as to the topic at hand, between your company and the SANE project, I 
am something of a bystander. I subscribe to this list because of general 
interest and because, years ago, I was given for Christmas a Canon N640U 
scanner which needed to be supported and Canon was either unwilling or 
unable to provide that support. However, as something of a bystander, I 
will make two observations:

1. I notice that several responses to you are asking that, just what part 
of the scanner's functioning is supposed to be a proprietary module and 
what part is intended to be supported code coming from SANE. That seems to 
me a reasonable request, and probably without an answer it is not possible 
to proceed.

2. Not all projects have precisely the same license. For example, some 
other large projects use the LGPL license, which can more easily permit 
linking of a proprietary executable program than the GPL can do. Thus, 
depending on the questions you ask and depending on what the answer to a 
question analogous to item 1 is, you might get a different response to a 
similar question from some other project using LGPL. I do not want you or 
anyone else who reads this to assume that I am recommending one of these 
licenses over the other in the context of this discussion, or for that 
matter outside of it. I merely mention that the terms and conditions of 
the two licenses are not identical.

Permit me to make a comparison in order to illustrate what you are dealing 
with, here. I do not know how it fits the history of some societies of 
eastern Asia, but in Europe and the Middle East there is a long history of 
craft guilds. You are not negotiating with individuals. You are 
negotiating with the guild. The guild has its collective interests. That 
is why it exists and continues to exist. The guild has its own property. 
That property is in the open, but it is licenced in such a way that it 
cannot easily be misappropriated. The guild will guard its property with 
at least equal zealousness to the companies which will not answer letters 
from the guild members. This is an apparently new phenomenon in the 
computer and software industry. Most of the big companies did not expect 
it. But it is here.

Theodore Kilgore

[sane-devel] Please give me some help to solve the license issues in using sane

On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:26:04 -0400
m. allan noah kitno455 at gmail.com wrote:

 
 no, the GPL is all about derivative works and combining code, it makes
 no difference the direction:

 You are probably right, the closest entry in the faq that describes this 
situation
 seems to be http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#GPLAndPlugins

cite
It depends on how the program invokes its plug-ins. If the program uses 
fork and exec to invoke plug-ins, then the plug-ins are separate programs, so 
the license for the main program makes no requirements for them.

If the program dynamically links plug-ins, and they make function calls to 
each other and share data structures, we believe they form a single program, 
which must be treated as an extension of both the main program and the 
plug-ins. This means the plug-ins must be released under the GPL or a 
GPL-compatible free software license, and that the terms of the GPL must be 
followed when those plug-ins are distributed.

If the program dynamically links plug-ins, but the communication between 
them is limited to invoking the `main' function of the plug-in with some 
options and waiting for it to return, that is a borderline case. 
/cite

 So, for example, if a GPL backend uses a closed source plugin
 to decode the received data, that would be a borderline case.

-- 

 Best regards,

 Alessandro Zummo,
  Tower Technologies - Torino, Italy

  http://www.towertech.it

[sane-devel] Please give me some help to solve the license issues in using sane