Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata and OpenStreetMap

[Lydia Pintscher]

Hey Amir,

Also check out all the work Mapbox had been doing in that area. There are
blog posts and they presented it at WikidataCon. (Sorry writing this
offline so don't have links.)


Cheers
Lydia

On Tue, Mar 27, 2018, 13:59 Amir E. Aharoni <amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> *** Before I begin: I've never been a major OpenStreetMap contributor, so
> forgive me if I misunderstand something basic about it. ***
>
> Lately, some work has been done on improving the integration of
> OpenStreetMap (OSM) and Wikimedia projects, in the Kartographer extension.
>
> In particular, I'm curious about this task:
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T112948
>
> It's about showing place names in the wiki language. It may get resolved
> soon (yay!!)
>
> But it raises an important question: What happens if the place name was
> not translated into the wiki language? As a not-so-extreme example, what
> happens if a place name is only available in the OSM database in Chinese?
> Unfortunately, it will be not very useful to readers of the English
> Wikipedia.
>
> The desirable solution is to give Wikipedia editors who know the relevant
> languages an easy way to translate the labels.
>
> Reading
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Translation#OpenStreetMap_website_interface
> , I see that there is no *easy* way to do it on the OpenStreetMap side. To
> add a translation of a place name, you need to:
> * find it on the map
> * edit it
> * type "name:LANGUAGE_CODE" in the properties list (for example "name:ru"
> for Russian)
> * write the name
> * save
> * wait for it to get published (I'm not sure how long does it take; maybe
> it's instant, but I made a test edit, and I still don't see it.)
>
> This is not super-efficient for several reasons:
> * Finding each place on the map may be time-consuming for practical
> considerations.
> * Sending each change manually is also time-consuming.
> * Typing the property name manually is slowish and error-prone.
>
> A lot of this data is already available on Wikidata. In fact,
> OpenStreetMap already has a Wikidata item property for each place. (It can
> also have a property for Wikipedia link, one for each language. It looks
> redundant to me: A link to the Wikidata item page would be enough.)
>
> Did anybody ever suggest importing the place names available on Wikidata
> to OSM, or to synchronize them regularly?
>
>
> --
> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> ‪“We're living in pieces,
> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
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Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata and OpenStreetMap

[Jan Macura]

Hello Amir and all,

On 27 March 2018 at 13:57, Amir E. Aharoni 
wrote:

> Did anybody ever suggest importing the place names available on Wikidata
> to OSM, or to synchronize them regularly?
>

Beside the facts already spoken in this thread, I believe it is not a goal
of OSM to have all the possible names of all the objects stored in their
database. As OSM quite heavily stands on the "on-the-ground" principle,
importing names massively into OSM seems to me as rather undesirable action.
>From my perspective, OSM is meant solely as a storage of geodata, while
other information should be more or less easily available from other
sources (WD connection might be sufficient for many cases, like this one).
I.e. creating a mashups (rendering maps included!) lies on the developer's
backs.
Notice that OSM for example does not even contains much information about
heights, so connecting OSM data with some elevation data is a common thing.

Sincerely,
 Jan
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Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata and OpenStreetMap

[Yuri Astrakhan]

sirable solution is to give Wikipedia editors who know the
>> > relevant languages an easy way to translate the labels.
>> >
>> > Reading
>> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Translation#OpenStreetMa
>> p_website_interface
>> > , I see that there is no *easy* way to do it on the OpenStreetMap side.
>> > To add a translation of a place name, you need to:
>> > * find it on the map
>> > * edit it
>> > * type "name:LANGUAGE_CODE" in the properties list (for example
>> > "name:ru" for Russian)
>> > * write the name
>> > * save
>> > * wait for it to get published (I'm not sure how long does it take;
>> > maybe it's instant, but I made a test edit, and I still don't see it.)
>> >
>> > This is not super-efficient for several reasons:
>> > * Finding each place on the map may be time-consuming for practical
>> > considerations.
>> > * Sending each change manually is also time-consuming.
>> > * Typing the property name manually is slowish and error-prone.
>> >
>> > A lot of this data is already available on Wikidata. In fact,
>> > OpenStreetMap already has a Wikidata item property for each place. (It
>> > can also have a property for Wikipedia link, one for each language. It
>> > looks redundant to me: A link to the Wikidata item page would be
>> enough.)
>> >
>> > Did anybody ever suggest importing the place names available on Wikidata
>> > to OSM, or to synchronize them regularly?
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
>> > http://aharoni.wordpress.com
>> > ‪“We're living in pieces,
>> > I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
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>> > Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
>> >
>>
>>
>> ___
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>>
>
>
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Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata and OpenStreetMap

[masti]

  
  
OSM already uses wikidata tag for connetion of the object to WD
items.
but with the names it is not that easy as Yaroslav said.

I do not think we are yet ready to do imports right now changing the
placenames.

OSM idea is to have the representation of what really exists in the
ground. So some names could be different from "official", even as it
is also reflected.

I am in fact right now investigating synergies for my talk at
State-of-the-Map Poland conference in April.
http:/sotm-pl.eu

masti

On 27.03.2018 13:57, Amir E. Aharoni
  wrote:


  
Hi,


*** Before I begin: I've never been a major
  OpenStreetMap contributor, so forgive me if I misunderstand
  something basic about it. ***



Lately, some work has been done on improving the
  integration of OpenStreetMap (OSM) and Wikimedia projects, in
  the Kartographer extension.


In particular, I'm curious about this task:
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T112948


It's about showing place names in the wiki
  language. It may get resolved soon (yay!!)


But it raises an important question: What happens
  if the place name was not translated into the wiki language?
  As a not-so-extreme example, what happens if a place name is
  only available in the OSM database in Chinese? Unfortunately,
  it will be not very useful to readers of the English
  Wikipedia.


The desirable solution is to give Wikipedia
  editors who know the relevant languages an easy way to
  translate the labels.


Reading https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Translation#OpenStreetMap_website_interface
  , I see that there is no *easy* way to do it on the
  OpenStreetMap side. To add a translation of a place name, you
  need to:
* find it on the map
* edit it
* type "name:LANGUAGE_CODE" in the properties
  list (for example "name:ru" for Russian)
* write the name
* save
* wait for it to get published (I'm not sure how
  long does it take; maybe it's instant, but I made a test edit,
  and I still don't see it.)



This is not super-efficient for several reasons:
* Finding each place on the map may be
  time-consuming for practical considerations.
* Sending each change manually is also
  time-consuming.
* Typing the property name manually is slowish
  and error-prone.



A lot of this data is already available on
  Wikidata. In fact, OpenStreetMap already has a Wikidata item
  property for each place. (It can also have a property for
  Wikipedia link, one for each language. It looks redundant to
  me: A link to the Wikidata item page would be enough.)



Did anybody ever suggest importing the place
  names available on Wikidata to OSM, or to synchronize them
  regularly?



  

  --
  Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
  http://aharoni.wordpress.com
  ‪“We're living in pieces,
  I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
  

  
  
  
  
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Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata and OpenStreetMap

[Yaroslav Blanter]

Hi Markus,

it is way more complicated than that unfortunately. For example, Schwarzwald
in Latvian (which uses Latin) is not Schwarzwald, but Švarcvalde, and in
Turkish it is Kara Orman.

We have a bot request on Wikidata stalled for exactly this reason,

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Requests_for_permissions/Bot/AmpersandBot_2

Cheers
Yaroslav


On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 8:33 PM, Markus Bärlocher <
markus.baerloc...@lau-net.de> wrote:

> Hi Amir,
>
> You are right:
> We should have simple tools for for both - Wikidata and OSM - to share
> the infomations together and to merge it :-)
>
> - - - -
>
> But I think it is not a good idea to "translate" geographical names.
>
> *A name is a name*
>
> Example:
>
> "Schwarzwald" (a big area of forest in Germany)
> should keep his name in each language.
>
> Of course it is very helpful to read a name in my writing system!
> I can't read Chinese.
> And most Chinese can't read nor Arabic nor Latin.
>
> In my opinion it is very wrong to separate parts of the word, and to
> translate each part (eg. schwarz=black and wood=wald) and to put it
> together (Blackforest).
>
> Most "translations" in Wikipedia and OSM are like this :-(
>
> I think we should stop such stupid work!
>
> - - - -
>
> What we need:
> Specific charts for each *writing system*.
>
> If you speak English (or another language with Latin letters)
> all names in countries which use Latin letters are written with no changes,
> and all names in countries which use another writing system (Arabic
> Chinese, ...) are written in two writing systems:
> 1. original (so people there can /read/ it when you point on a name)
> 2. Latin (so you can /speak/ it and local people can understand you)
>
> If you speak Yiddish (or another language with Hebrew letters)
> all names in countries which use Hebrew letters are written with no
> changes,
> and all names in countries which use another writing system (Arabic
> Chinese, Latin, ...) are written in two writing systems:
> 1. original (so local people can /read/ it when you point on a name)
> 2. Hebrew (so you can /speak/ it and local people can understand you)
>
> Ad 2.: this is a transformation like a "phonetic" script (broad
> transcription), or something like transcription or transliteration.
> (but /never/ a translation)
>
> Best regards,
> Markus
>
> PS: Exception:
> in bilingual locations we should use both languages plus a
> transformation in your writing system.
>
>
> > *** Before I begin: I've never been a major OpenStreetMap contributor,
> > so forgive me if I misunderstand something basic about it. ***
> >
> > Lately, some work has been done on improving the integration of
> > OpenStreetMap (OSM) and Wikimedia projects, in the Kartographer
> extension.
> >
> > In particular, I'm curious about this task:
> > https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T112948
> >
> > It's about showing place names in the wiki language. It may get resolved
> > soon (yay!!)
> >
> > But it raises an important question: What happens if the place name was
> > not translated into the wiki language? As a not-so-extreme example, what
> > happens if a place name is only available in the OSM database in
> > Chinese? Unfortunately, it will be not very useful to readers of the
> > English Wikipedia.
> >
> > The desirable solution is to give Wikipedia editors who know the
> > relevant languages an easy way to translate the labels.
> >
> > Reading
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Translation#OpenStreetMap_website_
> interface
> > , I see that there is no *easy* way to do it on the OpenStreetMap side.
> > To add a translation of a place name, you need to:
> > * find it on the map
> > * edit it
> > * type "name:LANGUAGE_CODE" in the properties list (for example
> > "name:ru" for Russian)
> > * write the name
> > * save
> > * wait for it to get published (I'm not sure how long does it take;
> > maybe it's instant, but I made a test edit, and I still don't see it.)
> >
> > This is not super-efficient for several reasons:
> > * Finding each place on the map may be time-consuming for practical
> > considerations.
> > * Sending each change manually is also time-consuming.
> > * Typing the property name manually is slowish and error-prone.
> >
> > A lot of this data is already available on Wikidata. In fact,
> > OpenStreetMap already has a Wikidata item property for each place. (It
> > can also have a property for Wikipedia link, one for each language. It
> > looks redundant to me: 

Re: [Wikidata] Wikidata and OpenStreetMap

[Yuri Astrakhan]

Amir, importing data from Wikidata to OSM has been discussed a number of
times.  There is a number of active OSM community members who are strongly
opposing it because they feel Wikidata is not sufficiently safe from the
legal perspective. E.g. Wikipedia allows users to look up things in Google
Maps, and Wikidata imports things from Wikipedia, therefore if OSM imports
from Wikidata, it will be tainted with the data from its arch-nemesis -
Google Maps (thus loosing legal standing/opening itself to potential
lawsuits).

As result, most OSM consumers simply do the post-processing step of merging
Wikidata with OSM and creating map tiles from the joined data.

Also, I have created a joined OSM+Wikidata SPARQL endpoint, with its own
set of examples.  See
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Sophox_query_service  and also a tool
to edit OSM based on those queries -
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Sophox

On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 7:57 AM, Amir E. Aharoni <
amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> *** Before I begin: I've never been a major OpenStreetMap contributor, so
> forgive me if I misunderstand something basic about it. ***
>
> Lately, some work has been done on improving the integration of
> OpenStreetMap (OSM) and Wikimedia projects, in the Kartographer extension.
>
> In particular, I'm curious about this task:
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T112948
>
> It's about showing place names in the wiki language. It may get resolved
> soon (yay!!)
>
> But it raises an important question: What happens if the place name was
> not translated into the wiki language? As a not-so-extreme example, what
> happens if a place name is only available in the OSM database in Chinese?
> Unfortunately, it will be not very useful to readers of the English
> Wikipedia.
>
> The desirable solution is to give Wikipedia editors who know the relevant
> languages an easy way to translate the labels.
>
> Reading https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Translation#
> OpenStreetMap_website_interface , I see that there is no *easy* way to do
> it on the OpenStreetMap side. To add a translation of a place name, you
> need to:
> * find it on the map
> * edit it
> * type "name:LANGUAGE_CODE" in the properties list (for example "name:ru"
> for Russian)
> * write the name
> * save
> * wait for it to get published (I'm not sure how long does it take; maybe
> it's instant, but I made a test edit, and I still don't see it.)
>
> This is not super-efficient for several reasons:
> * Finding each place on the map may be time-consuming for practical
> considerations.
> * Sending each change manually is also time-consuming.
> * Typing the property name manually is slowish and error-prone.
>
> A lot of this data is already available on Wikidata. In fact,
> OpenStreetMap already has a Wikidata item property for each place. (It can
> also have a property for Wikipedia link, one for each language. It looks
> redundant to me: A link to the Wikidata item page would be enough.)
>
> Did anybody ever suggest importing the place names available on Wikidata
> to OSM, or to synchronize them regularly?
>
>
> --
> Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> ‪“We're living in pieces,
> I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
>
> ___
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> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
>
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[Wikidata] Wikidata and OpenStreetMap

[Amir E. Aharoni]

Hi,

*** Before I begin: I've never been a major OpenStreetMap contributor, so
forgive me if I misunderstand something basic about it. ***

Lately, some work has been done on improving the integration of
OpenStreetMap (OSM) and Wikimedia projects, in the Kartographer extension.

In particular, I'm curious about this task:
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T112948

It's about showing place names in the wiki language. It may get resolved
soon (yay!!)

But it raises an important question: What happens if the place name was not
translated into the wiki language? As a not-so-extreme example, what
happens if a place name is only available in the OSM database in Chinese?
Unfortunately, it will be not very useful to readers of the English
Wikipedia.

The desirable solution is to give Wikipedia editors who know the relevant
languages an easy way to translate the labels.

Reading
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Translation#OpenStreetMap_website_interface
, I see that there is no *easy* way to do it on the OpenStreetMap side. To
add a translation of a place name, you need to:
* find it on the map
* edit it
* type "name:LANGUAGE_CODE" in the properties list (for example "name:ru"
for Russian)
* write the name
* save
* wait for it to get published (I'm not sure how long does it take; maybe
it's instant, but I made a test edit, and I still don't see it.)

This is not super-efficient for several reasons:
* Finding each place on the map may be time-consuming for practical
considerations.
* Sending each change manually is also time-consuming.
* Typing the property name manually is slowish and error-prone.

A lot of this data is already available on Wikidata. In fact, OpenStreetMap
already has a Wikidata item property for each place. (It can also have a
property for Wikipedia link, one for each language. It looks redundant to
me: A link to the Wikidata item page would be enough.)

Did anybody ever suggest importing the place names available on Wikidata to
OSM, or to synchronize them regularly?


--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
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