This is interesting; could you resume how this kind of platonic
love is?
Dear Hasan,
I'm just saying it is a way of saying 'love' with no erotic overtones.
I don't see any necessity to use this good-bye form, it seems
we differentiate a superior love here; this could dislike
i personally think it came about as a differentaiting praxis, so
that the firends wouldn't ask well, if we're not some kind of
Moslem, why are we saying Alla'u'Akhbar? and they were given an
alternative.
We usually use Allah'u'Abha as a greeting. That's not how Muslims use
Allah'u'akbar.
Much time I have asked why we (some of us, even institutions) used
to say good-bye in letters/e-mails with these words with loving
bahá'í greetings, I think we should not try to differentiate
loves or to change the current good-bye forms.
Dear Hasan,
I have always taken the 'Baha'i' as a
Hi Susan, I have played Bingo, poker, etc. in family meetings
(there are azar games)... In the other hand (azar games as
recreation to earn a bit money ;-) Are you saying that we cannot
play lottery anytime?
Dear Hasan,
No, I didn't say that. Lotteries are for charitable purposes. Even
Could someone come up with an actual reason as to why 'Abdu'l-Baha's
Writings don't make the grade we should expect to find in those of a
Prophet?
Dear David,
Yes, Book in this context infers not simply Writings but a Book of
Laws such as the Kitab-i Aqdas. Abdu'l-Baha did not reveal
What about Jesus, Moses or the other Manifestations?
Jesus and Moses did not. You have to keep in mind that in this time
period water was not save to drink and people didn't know about
boiling it. But wine was often mixed with water which disinfected it.
Also, in those days it was not
I infer that gambling as source of bahá?ís funds is forbidden
(also gambling as an occupation is inadvisable), but I don?t think
it is completely forbidden for recreation purposes. As far as
individuals are concerned, we have carefully studied the Writings
of 'Abdu'l-Bahá and Shoghi
My recollection is that alcohol is only gradually prohibited in the
Qur'an itself. At first the Qur'an merely says there is good and bad
in wine, but the bad exceeds the good. Then it says don't go to prayer
drunk, something hard to do if you imbibe at all and pray five times a
day. Afterwards
But I'm not about to give up my
extracts, which have 30 to 90 per cent alcohol by
volume, because Shoghi Effendi said not to eat
flaming rum puddings or sip a toast. I think we
need to use some common sense.
My understanding is that rum puddings have quite a lot of alcohol left
in them.
Any chance you could send me a copy to my gmail address? (Not this
one, it will crash.)
I have a hard copy of the book, but I'd like to be able to quote it
when appropriate.
- Original Message -
From: Hasan Elias [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wednesday, August 2, 2006 10:49 am
Subject: Re:
(this happened before I became a Baha'i, so
I had no
excuse not to eat it). ;-)
Uh huh. Like you were looking for one. ;-}
Didn't 'Abdu'l-Baha (or maybe Shoghi Effendi) say something once
about not
making an issue of alcohol content in food when we're somebody's
guest, in order
to
Dear Albert,
You can't get access to that unless you are subscribed.
But let's keep on topic with the Baha'i Faith, please.
warmest, Susan
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I see this the same way. Words do have meaning, but only
because people agree that they do.
Dear Tim,
And that's what Mark Foster meant by a 'social contract.' However, in
my experience each individual tends to use terminology in ways that
are often specific to them. So when analyzing a
words have no meaning, people have meanings.
I would appreciate it very much if someone could explain what
this means.
Dear Tim,
I can tell you what I meant by that. ;-}
Words in and of themselves have no instinsic meaningm they are just
sounds. But those that use them intend
Dear Friends,
If you want to see an even-handed approach to the ramifications of
Islam in geo-political terms I would recommend you look at the book
*Good Muslim, Bad Muslim: America, the Cold War, and the Roots of
Terror* by Mahmood Mamdani.
But I do not want to see this list become a
Dear Albert,
If you follow Al-Jazeera you will find there is plenty of self-
criticism in the Arabic world.
warmest, Susan
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References?
Google for the English language pages of al-Jazeera. My son and I were
reading those just yesterday.
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confidential and
I think Shi`ah consider the `ismah (infallibility) of `ali, Fatimih,
Imam Hasan, Imam Husayn, etc., etc. on par with the infallibility
of the
Prophet Muhammad. I guess the Shaykhi school adopts a very extremist
view of the exalted station of imams. But I think Baha'u'llah does
not
accept
As to the question you raise about the perfection of the
Manifestations, I think you can find a direct answer in Some
Answered Questions. In that book Abdu'l Baha explains that the
apparent rebukes to the Prophets are indirect rebukes to the
Prophet's followers rather than to the Prophet
I can't get the link to work.
- Original Message -
From: Dean Betts [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Friday, July 21, 2006 8:36 pm
Subject: Lincoln's Statement
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
The Baha'is do not have a temple in Haifa. We have shrines. Why
would Mr. Lincoln refer
But if it has been so decidedly rejected, why would Bahais in India
present Bahaullah as an Avatar?
Because it is the closest concept Hinduism has to Manifestation. But
we do usually explain we don't literally mean incarnation.
warmest, Susan
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i disagree with mark about this, but i understand his view.
in a discussion in which frequently we see terms like most
Moslems think and some poets say there is a strong appearance
that the words are constructs of a culture.
I think it would be more precise to say, words have no meaning,
The verse recommended to me that the meanings of words are
actually given by
God; and that man must recognise those meanings if he is to
understand the
relationship between his existence and the Revelations of God.
Otherwise, I
believe, he will live in a confusion of words.
Dear
A Rabbi is calling for Muslims and Christians to revise the Koran
and the
New Testament, excising the passages that preach ill-will towards
others.Dr Jonathan Romain, the Rabbi of Maidenhead Synagogue,
says that Jewish
scholars should also delete some verses from the Hebrew bible.**
snip
Dear Hasan,
Here's a URL that explains it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Hudaybiyyah
warmest, Susan
- Original Message -
From: Hasan Elias [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thursday, July 6, 2006 2:42 pm
Subject: Re: Muhammad and His return to Mecca
To: Baha'i Studies
Gilberto, these are points to bear in mind from the book
Making the Crooked Straight (a book made in response to attacks
from an ex-bahai Francesco Ficichia):
Hasan, do you have an electronic version of this book?
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It is said that the Jihad is only to defense, and historians (no-
believers) can argue that Muhammad was only a big merchant and He
want the hegemony of the trade in the region, so He returned to
Mecca to fight and get this aim.
Dear Hasan,
I don't know any historians who have made this
Dear David,
This has more apolcalyptic ramifications than statements regarding
comparative stations. It was believed that all the prophets and chosen
ones would return in the Last Days and the early Babis saw themselves
as fulfilling that prophecy. Hence Mulla Husayn is Muhammad, Quddus is
Baha'u'llah wrote:
The Four Gospels were written after Him [Christ]. John, Luke, Mark
and
Matthew - these four wrote after Christ what they remembered of
His
utterances.
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)
This passage seems to say that all four of the Gospel writers were
I wonder if you might be assuming too much about the meaning of the
words. If A tells B something. And B passes the message to C. And C
writes down what they remembers of A's words that doesn't mean C
ever met A.
I think you are right, Gilberto.
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That's an interesting suggestion. Still, though, the wording
doesn't sit
well with me if the writers weren't actually there.
Dear David,
That is because you are incorrigibly literalistic. ;-}
warmest, Susan
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Well, he answered my email. Unfortunately he was out of town most of
the time I was in Nebraska so we really couldn't connect.
- Original Message -
From: Ursus Maximus [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 4:40 pm
Subject: Re: Terry Culhane
To: Baha'i Studies
If anyone has access to Terry Culhane's current email address, could
they send it to me? I'm in Nebraska right now and would like to get a
hold of him.
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Six days a week with 1 or 2 long weekends a year as I recall.
It was a big adjustment for me.
Dear Albert,
I didn't know you used to work at the World Centre.
warmest, Susan
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One thing that would really help would be if a person from the
research
department joined this list. Does anyone here know someone from
the
research department whom they could ask?
Dear David,
Others have mentioned the time constraints the Research Department
operates under, but
I've read and heard English-speaking Muslims make a distinction
between revelation and inspiration and it is interesting to see
that you also seem to be distinguishing between the two terms but are
still using them in a very different way.
For muslims, a text would be revealed or inspired
PIs there a way to predict what questions the House/research
department will answer?nbsp; Just the most important or easiest
questions?
Dear David,
I would say the ones which are pertinent to the community as a whole,
especially those which might be causing differences.
warmest, Susan
Dear David,
Right now it isn't high on the list of priorities of the Universal
House of Justice. Their current position is that the Research
Department is there to serve their needs and can only take care of
everyone else's if time is available.
warmest, Susan
The information
I would be much more expectant of receiving satisfying answers to my
questionsnbsp;from people onnbsp;this list than through the lower
institutions.
Dear David,
Yes, I don't think my LSA or Board Member are going to know anything I
don't know either.
Do you think the House may decide to
A while ago on this list I asked about the requirements for looking
for a marriage partner, since what I had seen in translated passages
was slim.nbsp; I recently wrote to the House asking for further
information.nbsp; I was disappointed that I didn't receive the
response I was hoping for, and
Dear David,
I think first off, it is important to recognize the supplication
(asking God for stuff) is the lowest level of prayer. Not that you
shouldn't do it, but whether you get what you ask for is not a measure
of the efficacy of prayer. The real measure of the efficacy of prayer
is does
Could your own messages be going into your spam folder?
- Original Message -
From: Tim Nolan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Friday, May 12, 2006 8:49 pm
Subject: Why Do I Not See My Own Messages?
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
When I send a message to Baha'i Studies, I never see
b
Please, what is the correct translation of the Master's words to
actual lost linkconcept?
We share a common ancestor with apes? If that is true, man
always have been man is true?
Dear Hasan,
I think Keven Brown managed to find the original for this talk Abdu'l-
Baha gave, but I don't
If you talk that way, then, Manifestations descend from God :-)
We all come from God. And Abdu'l-Baha does attest that we ascend
through the four kingdonms. That certainly suggests to me wwe had to
go through the animal kingdom.
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So would I. But I have heard it repeated lots.
Dear Ian,
As I said, I've never even heard it. I wonder if the places where it
is being repeated doesn't say more about the attitudes they have
towards the institions than anything Abdu'l-Baha said we should have?
warmest, Susan
The
So, I don't get why the Master said the lost link will never be
found?
Thanks for answer, Hasan
Dear Hasan,
As I mentioned the concept of a 'missing link' in the late 19th
century and early 20th century had to do with popular (mis)conceptions
about evolution wherein they thought that
I think men were always men; we are of a different order, as we
are different from Manifestations.
Perhaps that is a very good analogy. If Manifestations descend from
men, why can't men descend from animals?
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Dear Hasan,
During Abdu'l-Baha's time there were people who believed there was
a 'missing link' from which man descended from the apes which
currently inhabit our planet. That link does not exist. But there are
innumerable links tying us with previous hominids like the
Australiopithecus. And
That doesn't seem to resolve the issue. The claim isn't that that
there is no missing link from modern humans to modern apes. The claim
is that man was never an animal
And that's a claim which I don't think science can prove or disprove.
Clearly man is physically an animal, bu what makes him
There
are *many*
fossils already discovered that belonged to primate species that
precededthe split between the current living human and non-human
primates.
Dear Ron,
I'm not thinking of early primates in general, I'm thinking more
specifically of the common ancestor of man and the
Dear Ehsan,
I would be real careful about using Sen McGlinn's essays on the
Mashriqu'lAdkar as sources. As you may well be aware the Sen McGlinn
is no longer considered a Baha'i and his treatment of the Mashriq has
been condemned in the April 7, 1999 letter from the Universal House
of
sometimes it is the contrast between Islamic law
and
Baha'u'llah's approach, or how jurisprudential terms of art are
used in
Islam and the Baha'i Faith, that would clarify and provide
perspective on
Baha'i law for the friends.
Dear Brent,
How would you describe those differences?
The Aqdas states that no one will come in the next thousand years
with a revelation direct from God.nbsp; The latter three words are
important qualifiers, as 'Abdu'l-Baha did have a revelation, just not
direct from God.nbsp;
Dear David,
The words 'direct from God' don't appear in the
I recall reading somewhere -- the Priceless Pearl? That when
Shoghi Effendi became the Guardian, the first thing he did was to
sit down and read all of the Writings at the World Centre.
Dear Brent,
The only thing I recall along those lines is that Shoghi Effendi read
all the sources in
Well, not necessarily.nbsp; But it would be an enormous
inconvenience for new members who didn't know the languages
Dear David,
I don't think you comprehend the difficulty in acquiring these
languages. First off, this is a task best done when one is young and
becomes increasingly difficult
The Wilmette Institute is about to launch its new three-month e-
learning course on the Writings of the Bab, but so far registrations
have been too low. Since this is an experimental course, we have
decided to offer it to everyone interested for HALF PRICE ($75 for
individuals; $150 for
I was at a talk by Ali Nakhjavani a couple days ago, and he explained
how the House makes decisions.nbsp; He said that the research
department finds all passages in the Writings that have direct or
indirect bearing onnbsp;a question.nbsp; These passages are often
going to be from untranslated
I don't consider this to be a false categorization of the views of
many believers, and I never said it was true of most believers. It
is clearly the view of some on this list, and some of these believers
are extremely outspoken and intolerant of any other viewpoint, thus
magnifying their
Also, if you would capitalize and punctuate your posts a little bit
closer to common norms it would help me understand them better.
I think we would all say Amen to that.
warmest, Susan
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Yes, Shoghi Effendi uses the words unerring pen in multiple
contexts
when referring with to Abdul-Baha.
Dear Marleen,
When I did a search on Ocean ever instance I found was in reference
to Abdu'l-Baha's prophecies or vision of the future.
warmest, Susan
The information contained
Excessive emphasis on
liberty
from the Enlightenment was seen negatively by some Arabs as
contributing
to bloodshed and the French Revolution.
Dear Marleen,
In Baha'u'llah's case He seems to have been more disturbed by the
Revolutions of 1848. The French Revolution was looked upon
I
have one question: Is the same Arabic word ismat used in
reference to the infallibility of the House of Justice?
Yes
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Yes, the idea was toyed with but as the century went on I think
there
was increasing ambivalence by some of the liberals and outright
hostility by conservatives to the adoption of secular, foreign
ideals
and government.
Dear Marleen,
Abdu'l-Baha had His own problems with the
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Many of His contemporaries had a great deal of admiration for
the
Enlightenment.
Arabs that did were clearly in the minority and seen as
extremists.
\
Dear Marleen,
Your complaining about Abdu'l-Baha speaking in generalities about the
Enlightenment
In my view, calling Abdu'l Baha wrong is like a newborn infant
calling Aristotle wrong.
The infant is not qualified to say Aristotle is wrong. By the
same principle, I am not qualified to say Abdu'l Baha was wrong.
And yes, I know Aristotle was wrong about some things, particulary
Another reason why Abdul-Baha and many Arabs may have rejected
Enlightenment values was the perception that the concepts of
liberty and
civil rights went too far and were inconsistent with Islam and
submission to God.
Dear Marleen,
You're talking about Arabs in generalities. Which
I am more than a little puzzled about explaining Abdul-Baha's
errors, especially related to science, to nonBahais
Why not just offer them your own understanding?
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Can you explain the moral quality of conferred infallibility
please?
Dear Hasan,
The word translated as infallibility is ismat which literally means
immaculacy. It is used primary to denote someone incapable of sin,
which is a moral failing. I think possessing ismat means that one's
Dear David,
In the 19th century Middle East people had no choice but to be right-
handed. Even if your natural disposition was to be left-handed you
would be made to write and eat with your right hand. The left-hand was
reserved for unclean tasks.
warmest, Susan
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Why can't I find castrophizing in any dictionary?
Don't know, but you can find a good description of it here:
http://www.getunstuckandgetgoing.com/articles/catastrophe.php
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Abdul-Baha bashes Enlightenment philosophers like the rest of his
contemporaries.
Dear Marleen,
Many of His contemporaries had a great deal of admiration for the
Enlightenment. Abdu'l-Baha could have chosen to adopt their view.
The Enlightenment and those associated with it,
when
If a person takes these words to heart, it will help clear up
misunderstandings, in my opinion.
Dear Tim,
I'm not entirely sure they shed much light on whether Abdu'l-Baha was
right about this, that and the other thing. Not unless you can find
specific ways in which they apply. Simply
i don;t have access, nor probably does any one else, to what tfhe
Master actuallly said in the one time the Master is recorded
(pup) as calling voltaire an atheist.
Dear Gabe,
Here it is:
Today France glorifies Napoleon Bonaparte, saying, He was a French
military genius, whereas, in
How do
we understand supernatural knowledge as distinct from omniscience?
Dear Marleen,
I assume that by supernatural knowledge the Guardian was referring to
the fact that Abdu'l-Baha had knowledge of things which He did not
learn in the usual manner. The Guardian did not give any
Abdul-Baha
misunderstands the historical context of the Enlightenment
reaction
against the power of Roman Catholic ecclesiastics.
What do you think he misunderstands and why?
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I did not intend to start a fight, although I will admit that this
topicusually does end as a fight, unfortunately.
Dear Ron,
My point is that if you approach the topic as belligerantly as your
last post, that is bound to be the case.
The reason I bring it up is this: I believe that our
Ron wrote:
"But many, if not most, Baha'i's, understanding ofstatements by the Central Figures is that They (and the UniversalHouse of Justice) are infallible, so as to mean that they can't make amistake, literally."
To which Albert responded:
"Have you got any sources from within the
firestorm wrote:
:A very common Baha'i attitude is that if one of the Central
Figures wrote something that comes into conflict with scientific
knowledge, then science is wrong because our Central Figures are
infallible.
Firestorm, do you have any proof or are you just venting? I
I ask the question: Has the Universal House of Justice
authenticated this passage therefrom,
Dear Richard,
As I mentioned to you on Baha'i-Discuss, the Universal House of
Justice doesn't authenticate talks or even Tablets. Most of its
members don't even know the languages. This task is
If only everyone had the same understanding that you have, there
would
be no problem. But many, if not most, Baha'i's, understanding of
statements by the Central Figures is that They (and the Universal
House of Justice) are infallible, so as to mean that they can't
make a
mistake,
http://timescolumns.typepad.com/gledhill/
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Dear friends,
I would like to invite everyone to submit abstracts for the ABS
Conference in San Francisco. This year we will be introducing a new
History and Biography SIG. I hope to see you all there.
warmest, Susan
Annual Conference of the Association for Baha'i Studies, August 10-
14,
Some of you might find this article on the 'missing link' interesting:
http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/missinglinks.htm
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It (still) is a sign of a dynamic field of inquiry.
In other words it's still in the gelatin stage.
Dear Albert,
You're missing both the point of this article and misundersanding the
very nature of mdoern science which is *always* dynamic, not because
it is in its infancy, but because
Mirza Musa?
No, that would be Kalim who descendants became Covenant breakers.
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confidential and for the use of only the individual or
Baha'i = surname of a family who are descendant of Baha'u'llah
living in
Nova Scotia, Canada.
You must mean relatives rather than descendents. The only remaining
descdenants descend from Covenant breakers.
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Dear friends,
I recently came across this letter from the House of Justice on
Jonah's website which I thought you might find interesting.
warmest, Susan
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Are Baha'is to
reject
the 586 BC date for the Babylonian captivity?
Dear David,
Why don't you read carefully that letter from the Universal House of
Justice I just posted and see if any of the principles in that letter
might apply in this case.
warmest, Susan
The information
Could someone tell me about the reports that claimed the Bab was
killed by
the first shots? I didn't realize that any sources claimed that.
Dear David,
I've never seen any accounts that report the Bab was killed by the
first volley. However, if He had been there wouldn't be a second
Personally I met her in Bangkok and I spend 4 days with her as her
translator and I know well about her opinions and what she thinks
about
religion in general.
You've picqued my interest. What does she think about religion in
general?
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You construed him as saying that Bahais don't count.
And that probably makes you feel bad.
Not really, Gilberto. My father-in-law's attitudes upset my husband,
not me. I was more amused. Initially he refused to give consent unless
Nizam returned to Islam and i became a Muslim too. I talked him
I wonder if you can enumerate some prominent, leading Muslim
scholars, clerics, or Islamic countries/governments who have
actually publicly accepted Baha'is as people of the Book.
Offhand, another prominent Muslim who has spoken up on behalf of
Bahais is Shirin Ebadi, a Muslim woman
What is/was framed in a disparaging way?
Gilberto assumes everything I say is disparaging of Islam.
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All I'm saying is that Susan's father-in-law apparently is at least
one Muslim who considers at least one Bahai as being in the general
category of People of the Book.
You're missing the point, Gilbert. He was not accepting me *as a
Baha'i* as among the People of the Book. By rejecting the
No; she's a Baha'i; he's a Muslim, both from the time they met
(actually,both from birth). What implications might there be that
don't exist if she
wasn't a convert?
Dear Ben,
If she converted from Islam then she would be considered an apostate
and marriage would be forbidden. A Muslim
Dear Friends:
The Wilmette Institute's next three-month e-learning course, Islam for
Deepening and Dialogue, starts on February 15. It will will briefly
survey pre-Islamic Arabia, examine the life of Muhammad, the process
of revelation and subsequent compilation of the Qur'án, cover the
There
is something like a copyright of this photo?
No. My understanding is that the photo itself was taken by the Ottoman
government. The one which is being circulated comes from William
Miller's book. We have no control over this.
warmest, Susan
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Dear Susan, why pilgrims cannot see the other photograph of
Bahá'u'lláh, the photo of Miller's disrespectful book, is it not
authenticated?
Dear Hasan,
It's authentic, it is just not ours. I think Miller got it from Jalal
Azali.
warmest, Susan
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I showed you evidence for my claims about your beliefs which was also
another option which you offered.
Gilberto,
I specifically asked you to show me where *I* said anything like that
about the Jews. You did not do so.
But in addition I also made a
statement which constituted an apology.
I am not trying to upset you. I am not joking. Think of it
this way: In the future someone appears CLAIMING to be the next
Manifestation and produces a family tree showing he is descended
from Baha`u'llah.
Dear Scott,
A family tree showing he is a descendent from Baha'u'llah would
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