Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 07:18:57PM +0100, Adam Borowski wrote: > On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 05:57:21PM +, Dr. Bas Wijnen wrote: > > So we need to decide what we want. I think there probably is consensus > > about: > > > > - We want people with non-free hardware to install Debian if they want

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 05:57:21PM +, Dr. Bas Wijnen wrote: > > > they will most likely simply not understand the point, and what makes > > > free hardware so much better. > > > > > massively encourage users to use non-free hardware > > > > > link to a page suggesting free hardware over

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 05:57:21PM +, Dr. Bas Wijnen wrote: > So we need to decide what we want. I think there probably is consensus about: > > - We want people with non-free hardware to install Debian if they want to. > - We want people with non-free firmware installed to get updates for

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 10:13:52AM +0500, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote: > On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 11:00:38PM +0100, Toni Mueller wrote: > > they will most likely simply not understand the point, and what makes > > free hardware so much better. > > > massively encourage users to use non-free hardware

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 04:56:25PM +0100, Toni Mueller wrote: > > My point is you shouldn't educate with lies and half-truths. > Good point. Then you get to do it the correct way. Deal? That's not how these things work though. -- WBR, wRAR signature.asc Description: PGP signature

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 04:22:23PM +0500, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote: > My point is you shouldn't educate with lies and half-truths. Good point. Then you get to do it the correct way. Deal? Cheers, --Toni++

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 12:16:01PM +0100, Toni Mueller wrote: > > > link to a page suggesting free hardware over similar non-free hardware > > > > There is no such thing. There is only non-free hardware without updates > > for its software. > > "Whatever". My main point is imho to both make it

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 10:13:52AM +0500, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote: > On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 11:00:38PM +0100, Toni Mueller wrote: > > link to a page suggesting free hardware over similar non-free hardware > > There is no such thing. There is only non-free hardware without updates > for its

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Sat, Dec 09, 2017 at 10:26:03AM +0100, Marc Haber wrote: I fscking do know what the docs say. They're ambiguous and it didn't work in either interpretation way I could come up with when I was last forced to install Debian on a system in a place where only wireless LAN was available, like a

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 11:00:38PM +0100, Toni Mueller wrote: > they will most likely simply not understand the point, and what makes > free hardware so much better. > massively encourage users to use non-free hardware > link to a page suggesting free hardware over similar non-free hardware

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

Hi, On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 02:39:12PM +0100, W. Martin Borgert wrote: > Every time I need a Debian ISO, it takes me minutes to find it. > I didn't even know, that there were an ISO with non-free firmware. > > There should be a beautiful ISO download page, e.g. >

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, 4 Dec 2017 16:38:06 -0600, Michael Lustfield wrote: >As long as I avoid Nvidia, I usually have excellent luck finding systems >(specifically laptops) that work well without anything from non-free. Which current and available Wifi adapter works without non-free

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 09:45:33 +0800, Yao Wei wrote: >My 2 cent is, we can distribute ISOs without non-free things, but we >need an add-on pack to put into the USB flash drive for non-free network >drivers, and we categorize the add-on not part of Debian. We also have >to improve the

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 12:34:52 +0800, Paul Wise wrote: >The docs say to dump firmware files or packages on a USB stick: > >https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch06s04.html.en I fscking do know what the docs say. They're ambiguous and it didn't work in either interpretation

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 11:39 AM, Adam Borowski wrote: > It might be less disruptive to add a new field like Subsection; that'd avoid > the need to change any of archive tools -- including ones not used on the > official archive, like reprepro. ... > Because Section: implies an unique section,

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Wed, Dec 06, 2017 at 10:05:51AM +0800, Paul Wise wrote: > On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 1:46 AM, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote: > > > * splitting non-free in subsets; > > * adding a non-free-firmware area; > > I think we don't want either of these, instead we should *add* > additional Packages files

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 04:29:43PM +0200, Lars Wirzenius wrote: > Myself, I would prefer us to keep both the free-software-only ISO and > the non-free ISO with firmware and other things needed to get typical > modern hardware running, and improve the discoverability of the > latter. I think we can

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

Adam Borowski writes: > No distruption for existing systems, satisfies those concerned about > accidentally installing "real" software (as much as the notion of > executable code running on another processor in your machine, or even > deeper inside the same processor, being

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Wed, Dec 06, 2017 at 10:05:51AM +0800, Paul Wise wrote: > On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 1:46 AM, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote: > > > * splitting non-free in subsets; > > * adding a non-free-firmware area; > > I think we don't want either of these, instead we should *add* > additional Packages files

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 1:46 AM, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote: > * splitting non-free in subsets; > * adding a non-free-firmware area; I think we don't want either of these, instead we should *add* additional Packages files for each of the classes of non-free things that people want to be able to

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

Le lundi, 4 décembre 2017, 23.18:21 h CET Philipp Kern a écrit : > On 04.12.2017 19:03, Holger Levsen wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 05:36:30PM +, Ian Jackson wrote: > >> Lars Wirzenius writes: > >>> Myself, I would prefer us to keep both the free-software-only ISO and > >>> the non-free

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

Am 05.12.2017 um 06:02 schrieb Paul Wise: > On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 6:18 AM, Philipp Kern wrote: >> On 04.12.2017 19:03, Holger Levsen wrote: >>> yes, I also agree this would work and be better than the status-quo. >>> however I'm inclined to believe doing this and adding a fourth repo, >>>

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 6:18 AM, Philipp Kern wrote: > On 04.12.2017 19:03, Holger Levsen wrote: >> yes, I also agree this would work and be better than the status-quo. >> however I'm inclined to believe doing this and adding a fourth repo, >> non-free-firmware (additionally to main, contrib and

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 12:34 AM, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > Yes, I've never managed to get d-i to find firmware I've put on a USB > myself, and always resorted to this approach. I never got around to > reading the source to figure out where it expects to look (nor to > improve the docs etc.) The

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Tue, Dec 05, 2017 at 09:45:33AM +0800, Yao Wei wrote: > About alternatives, I found it difficult to buy a brand-new laptop with > 802.11ac wifi chip which is available on the market. All of them > requires firmware or even non-free Linux modules. All wifi chips use firmware so this is a bad

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Dec 04, Michael Lustfield wrote: > As long as I avoid Nvidia, I usually have excellent luck finding systems > (specifically laptops) that work well without anything from non-free. With > servers, I usually need something for the networking drivers but nothing else.

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 06:49:05PM +, Holger Levsen wrote: > On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 11:41:34PM +0500, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote: > > There are alternatives? > > always. > > > -- > cheers, > Holger About alternatives, I found it difficult to buy a brand-new laptop with 802.11ac wifi

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, 2017-12-04 at 21:01 +, Ben Hutchings wrote: > I end up needing non-free firmware on most bare metal systems, but > nothing else from non-free.  I never remember how to include it at > installation time.  And I don't want us to gloss over the fact that > it is non-free and therefore not

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On 05.12.2017 00:11, Adam Borowski wrote: > How exactly firmware is not software? > We may take a concession and offer non-free or parts of non-free more > prominently (as it's needed on modern x86, all wifi cards I've seen, etc), > but let's not declare that non-software. > > Thus, until the

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 11:46:37PM +0100, Marco d'Itri wrote: > On Dec 04, Russ Allbery wrote: > > > +1. I think firmware is something conceptually different than non-free > > software in general, and it would be good to give users a simple way to > > choose to enable non-free

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, 4 Dec 2017 23:41:34 +0500 Andrey Rahmatullin wrote: > On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 10:34:05AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: > > For the discoverability, I would be quite comfortable with putting both > > the free and the non-free download links prominantly on the page with the >

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Dec 04, Russ Allbery wrote: > +1. I think firmware is something conceptually different than non-free > software in general, and it would be good to give users a simple way to > choose to enable non-free firmware without enabling other non-free > software. Me too. Mostly

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 11:18:21PM +0100, Philipp Kern wrote: > I guess the question from my side is if the list of archive components > in §5 of the Social Contract is supposed to be exhaustive or not. I.e. > if we need to change that or not. If we don't need to: yay. (Maybe > because we

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On 04.12.2017 19:03, Holger Levsen wrote: > On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 05:36:30PM +, Ian Jackson wrote: >> Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)"): >>> Myself, I would prefer us to keep both the free-software-only ISO and >&g

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, 2017-12-04 at 10:34 -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: > Holger Levsen writes: > > > yes, I also agree this would work and be better than the status-quo. > > however I'm inclined to believe doing this and adding a fourth repo, > > non-free-firmware (additionally to main,

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 08:21:21PM +, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 10:34:05AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: > >Holger Levsen writes: > > > >>yes, I also agree this would work and be better than the status-quo. > >>however I'm inclined to believe doing

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

Am 04.12.2017 um 19:03 schrieb Holger Levsen: > On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 05:36:30PM +, Ian Jackson wrote: >> Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)"): >>> Myself, I would prefer us to keep both the free-software-only ISO and >&g

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 10:34:05AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: Holger Levsen writes: yes, I also agree this would work and be better than the status-quo. however I'm inclined to believe doing this and adding a fourth repo, non-free-firmware (additionally to main, contrib

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 06:49:05PM +, Holger Levsen wrote: > > There are alternatives? > > always. Non-x86, I assume. -- WBR, wRAR signature.asc Description: PGP signature

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 11:41:34PM +0500, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote: > There are alternatives? always. -- cheers, Holger signature.asc Description: PGP signature

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

Andrey Rahmatullin writes: > On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 10:34:05AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: >> For the discoverability, I would be quite comfortable with putting both >> the free and the non-free download links prominantly on the page with >> the non-free link going to or closely

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 10:34:05AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: > For the discoverability, I would be quite comfortable with putting both > the free and the non-free download links prominantly on the page with the > non-free link going to or closely tied with a page that discusses the > issues,

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

Holger Levsen writes: > yes, I also agree this would work and be better than the status-quo. > however I'm inclined to believe doing this and adding a fourth repo, > non-free-firmware (additionally to main, contrib and non-free) would be > even better and also not need a

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 05:36:30PM +, Ian Jackson wrote: > Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)"): > > Myself, I would prefer us to keep both the free-software-only ISO and > > the non-free ISO with firmware and other thi

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)"): > Myself, I would prefer us to keep both the free-software-only ISO and > the non-free ISO with firmware and other things needed to get typical > modern hardware running, and improve the discoverabil

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 04:37:24PM +0100, Marc Haber wrote: On Sat, 02 Dec 2017 11:39:56 +, Medical Wei wrote: Actually I am thinking about people with non-free firmware problems to get additional firmware and download them to another USB disk. In this way the user don't

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, 04 Dec 2017 12:31:14 +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 08:28:49AM +, Simon McVittie wrote: > > I doubt there was any such decision, except by not knowing there was a > > decision that could be made. The official, fully Free ISO (which is OK > > for VMs and

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 02:33:07PM +0100, Jeroen Dekkers wrote: > Just because software comes pre-installed doesn't mean it is free. And > if it is also impossible to replace the software you also can't update > it with a free version so the user has even less freedom than when you > can replace

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, 04 Dec 2017 13:21:49 +0100, Ben Finney wrote: > > Jonathan Dowland writes: > > > Are *you* using non-free firmware? > > The machines sold by, for example, ThinkPenguin, work with the latest > Debian release, without non-free software. There's one example, which >

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 7:39 PM, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > Are we promoting hardware that *doesn't* require non-free firmware (not > drivers, there is an important distinction) at the moment? On our website, we don't promote hardware, just people/companies that you can pay to install Debian for

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > IMHO, we need to go (more) one way or the other. We either reaffirm that > firmware is in-scope for our DFSG values and stop compromising it with > the non-free install images, or we look to revise the DFSG in line with > modern realities

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 11:21:49PM +1100, Ben Finney wrote: > and the Debian Project promotes hardware that doesn't > require non-free firmware (because the Debian system by default needs no > extra drivers for that hardware). ... equally with the hardware that uses pre-flashed firmware. > > I

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

Jonathan Dowland writes: > On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 09:17:59PM +0100, Thomas Goirand wrote: > >I at least, and probably a lot of Debian contributors, would start > >hating Debian for promoting hardware that needs non-free drivers if > >the non-free ISO was the default one. > >

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 04:46:24PM +0100, Marc Haber wrote: > Yes. We're approaching a worst-of-both-worlds scenario: We're not Free > enough to have the FSF recommend us, and we're not non-free enough for > our OS to run on current hardware used by Linux beginners, and cause > them to end up with

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 11:39:18AM +, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > > I at least, and probably a lot of Debian contributors, would start > > hating Debian for promoting hardware that needs non-free drivers if the > > non-free ISO was the default one. > > Are we promoting hardware that *doesn't*

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 05:05:58PM -0500, Theodore Ts'o wrote: Personally, as a developer, I will say there is one benefit of being so user-unfriendly that the usable ISO is hidden under the beware-of-leopard sign, which is that it serves as a "you have to be this technically aware to install

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 09:17:59PM +0100, Thomas Goirand wrote: I at least, and probably a lot of Debian contributors, would start hating Debian for promoting hardware that needs non-free drivers if the non-free ISO was the default one. Are we promoting hardware that *doesn't* require non-free

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 08:28:49AM +, Simon McVittie wrote: I doubt there was any such decision, except by not knowing there was a decision that could be made. The official, fully Free ISO (which is OK for VMs and some embedded systems, but normally a trap for the PCs we expect new users to

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

Paul Wise wrote: > On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 5:22 AM, Marc Haber wrote: >> Debian is also about providing an Universal Operating System, and I >> have seen BIG installations of Debian on server farms moving to >> PragBF because the Broadcom network chips on those servers required

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 5:22 AM, Marc Haber wrote: > Debian is also about providing an Universal Operating System, and I > have seen BIG installations of Debian on server farms moving to PragBF > because the Broadcom network chips on those servers required people > jumping through hoops while

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On 12/03/2017 11:20 PM, Alf Gaida wrote: > It is not only the last bit. And i don't think that 'a little bit more' > promotion is sufficient. We should clearly state why we prefer the free > ones. But we should not hide the non-free ones and should have them on > the same site. With a clear

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On 03.12.2017 21:17, Thomas Goirand wrote: > The FSF wouldn't be the only one. I at least, and probably a lot of > Debian contributors, would start hating Debian for promoting hardware > that needs non-free drivers if the non-free ISO was the default one. If > this drives some of our users away,

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Sat, Dec 02, 2017 at 11:59:08AM +, Sue Spence wrote: > On 2 December 2017 at 11:49, Holger Levsen wrote: > > > On Sat, Dec 02, 2017 at 12:32:29PM +0100, Geert Stappers wrote: > > > URL is https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/ > >

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Sun, 3 Dec 2017 21:17:59 +0100, Thomas Goirand wrote: >The FSF wouldn't be the only one. I at least, and probably a lot of >Debian contributors, would start hating Debian for promoting hardware >that needs non-free drivers if the non-free ISO was the default one. If >this

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On 12/01/2017 05:31 PM, Alf Gaida wrote: > On 01.12.2017 16:53, Ian Jackson wrote: >> Simon McVittie writes ("Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)"): >>> I find it interesting that we're having this conversation at the same >>> ti

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 04:37:24PM +0100, Marc Haber wrote: Last time I tried to download the non-free firmware and put it on another USB disk, I ended up in changing to a shell from the installer and unpacking the firmware blobs to the correct place manually because I wasn't able to figure out

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Fri, 1 Dec 2017 21:38:46 +0500, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote: >ALso AFAIK when packages are temporarily removed from testing for various >reasons that may break the user systems (or, at least, make their >experience worse when they want to install something). At least I've seen >a

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Fri, 1 Dec 2017 10:15:41 +, Jonathan Dowland wrote: >On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 02:34:40PM +0800, Paul Wise wrote: >>It would have been best for him to download the ISO with non-free >>firmware embedded, do you know how he made the decision to download >>the ISO without

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Sat, 02 Dec 2017 11:39:56 +, Medical Wei wrote: >Actually I am thinking about people with non-free firmware problems to get >additional firmware and download them to another USB disk. >In this way the user don't need to re-download an "non-official" ISO to >install Debian.

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Sat, Dec 02, 2017 at 10:39:30PM +0100, Luca Capello wrote: > IMHO you should document yourself > *before* trying something, and I am not even considering firmware at > all. Or, if you prefer, you should not assume that everything works out > of the box (in any field, thus not IT-restricted).

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

Hi there, On Sat, 02 Dec 2017 13:17:13 +0500, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote: > On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 10:14:21PM +0100, Luca Capello wrote: > > > > It would have been best for him to download the ISO with non-free > > > > firmware embedded, do you know how he made the decision to download > > > > the

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Fri, 2017-12-01 at 12:16 -0500, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote: > On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 05:31:09PM +0100, Alf Gaida wrote: > > > > > > > Ian, thats dead easy - put the needed packages onto the iso and be done > > with. The installer should have an option to opt-in contrib and/or > > non-free.

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On 2 December 2017 at 11:49, Holger Levsen wrote: > On Sat, Dec 02, 2017 at 12:32:29PM +0100, Geert Stappers wrote: > > URL is https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/ > cd-including-firmware/ > > so who will make nonfree.debian.net and non-free.debian.net >

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Sat, Dec 02, 2017 at 12:32:29PM +0100, Geert Stappers wrote: > URL is > https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/ so who will make nonfree.debian.net and non-free.debian.net http-redirect to that URL? :) -- cheers, Holger signature.asc

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Sat, Dec 02, 2017 at 12:32:29PM +0100, Geert Stappers wrote: > > > http://get.debian.org > > > Might not be beautiful, but it has the needed information, clearly > > > spelt out. > > > > besides that I find that page still too confusing / not simple enough, > > it also lacks information about

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

Actually I am thinking about people with non-free firmware problems to get additional firmware and download them to another USB disk. In this way the user don't need to re-download an "non-official" ISO to install Debian. But if Policy can allow non-free firmware to go accompany with the ISO it

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Sat, Dec 02, 2017 at 10:49:32AM +, Holger Levsen wrote: > On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 12:05:27PM -0600, Gunnar Wolf wrote: > > http://get.debian.org > > Might not be beautiful, but it has the needed information, clearly > > spelt out. > > besides that I find that page still too confusing / not

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

El sáb., 2 de dic. de 2017 a la(s) 05:17, Andrey Rahmatullin < w...@debian.org> escribió: > On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 10:14:21PM +0100, Luca Capello wrote: > > > > It would have been best for him to download the ISO with non-free > > > > firmware embedded, do you know how he made the decision to

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 12:05:27PM -0600, Gunnar Wolf wrote: > http://get.debian.org > Might not be beautiful, but it has the needed information, clearly > spelt out. besides that I find that page still too confusing / not simple enough, it also lacks information about the non-free images. --

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 10:14:21PM +0100, Luca Capello wrote: > > > It would have been best for him to download the ISO with non-free > > > firmware embedded, do you know how he made the decision to download > > > the ISO without non-free firmware? > > > > Every time I need a Debian ISO, it takes

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

I agree with this mail. It was difficult for me, find the ISO download (especially non-free installer) El vie., 1 de dic. de 2017 a la(s) 18:15, Luca Capello escribió: > Hi there, > > On Fri, 01 Dec 2017 14:39:12 +0100, W. Martin Borgert wrote: > > Quoting Paul Wise

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

Hello everybody, I started on the free software world 7 years ago. My first distro was Debian. But in that time Debian was "complicate" for me. So, I change to Ubuntu. I used to use them like a simple user. A couple of month ago I decided to contribute to Free software, so I choose Debian. Now,

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

The Wanderer wrote: > On 2017-12-01 at 16:44, Sven Hartge wrote: >> Luca Capello wrote: >>> On Fri, 01 Dec 2017 14:59:53 -0500, James McCoy wrote: People seem to be skipping over the fact that even after ntfs-3g was installed, the user only had RO

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On 2017-12-01 at 16:44, Sven Hartge wrote: > Luca Capello wrote: > >> On Fri, 01 Dec 2017 14:59:53 -0500, James McCoy wrote: > >>> People seem to be skipping over the fact that even after ntfs-3g >>> was installed, the user only had RO access. That's the bigger >>> issue. > >>

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

Luca Capello wrote: > On Fri, 01 Dec 2017 14:59:53 -0500, James McCoy wrote: >> People seem to be skipping over the fact that even after ntfs-3g was >> installed, the user only had RO access. That's the bigger issue. > Exactly, which IIRC is the normal behavior if the NTFS

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

Hi there, On Fri, 01 Dec 2017 14:39:12 +0100, W. Martin Borgert wrote: > Quoting Paul Wise : > > It would have been best for him to download the ISO with non-free > > firmware embedded, do you know how he made the decision to download > > the ISO without non-free firmware? > >

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

Hi there, On Fri, 01 Dec 2017 14:59:53 -0500, James McCoy wrote: > People seem to be skipping over the fact that even after ntfs-3g was > installed, the user only had RO access. That's the bigger issue. Exactly, which IIRC is the normal behavior if the NTFS filesystem was not properly "closed",

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 12:23:14PM +0100, Michael Biebl wrote: > Am 01.12.2017 um 07:34 schrieb Paul Wise: > > On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 1:36 AM, Arturo Borrero Gonzalez wrote: > >> * no support for RW on NTFS drives, only RO. This wasn't fixed even by > >> installing ntfs-3g [0]. > >> I didn't have

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 07:08:07PM +0100, W. Martin Borgert wrote: > > > > Of course, the stable amd64 netinst is useful only for VMs. > > > > > > Why? > > It doesn't contain non-free firmware. > > OK, but that's an exaggeration. More often than not I was > able to install Debian without

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 12:02:45PM -0600, Gunnar Wolf wrote: > Look over the fence. How long did it > take for Windows XP to disappear? Before that, how long was Windows 98 > king? How many users still cling to Windows 7? They don't need the > newest, shiniest software. They want something stable

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On 1 December 2017 at 14:39, W. Martin Borgert wrote: > Quoting Paul Wise : >> >> It would have been best for him to download the ISO with non-free >> firmware embedded, do you know how he made the decision to download >> the ISO without non-free firmware? > >

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

Quoting Andrey Rahmatullin : On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 05:10:37PM +0100, W. Martin Borgert wrote: > Currently the stable amd64 netinst is linked from the front page (top > right corner). It is, indeed. Never saw it before... It's a relatively recent improvement. Well, I

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

W. Martin Borgert dijo [Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 02:39:12PM +0100]: > Every time I need a Debian ISO, it takes me minutes to find it. > I didn't even know, that there were an ISO with non-free firmware. > > There should be a beautiful ISO download page, e.g. > https://www.debian.org/download[s]/ >

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

Arturo Borrero Gonzalez dijo [Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 01:15:04PM +0100]: > >> It would have been best for him to download the ISO with non-free > >> firmware embedded, do you know how he made the decision to download > >> the ISO without non-free firmware? > > What others say is true. It's not easy

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 05:31:09PM +0100, Alf Gaida wrote: > > > Ian, thats dead easy - put the needed packages onto the iso and be done > with. The installer should have an option to opt-in contrib and/or > non-free. Done. Ok, that was the technical part. Which has the potential to make the

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

Alf Gaida writes ("Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)"): > On 01.12.2017 16:53, Ian Jackson wrote: > > FAOD I agree that the current situation with install images for random > > PCs is quite unsatisfactory, but I don't know how to square the circle. >

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On 01.12.2017 16:53, Ian Jackson wrote: > Simon McVittie writes ("Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)"): >> I find it interesting that we're having this conversation at the same >> time as a thread about how there should be a configuration option

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 05:10:37PM +0100, W. Martin Borgert wrote: Quoting Andrey Rahmatullin : Of course, the stable amd64 netinst is useful only for VMs. Why? I suspect that this means that this image is useful to install a guest machine in a virtualized environment.

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 03:34:04PM +, Scott Kitterman wrote: > > > On December 1, 2017 7:15:04 AM EST, Arturo Borrero Gonzalez > wrote: > ... > >Other thing is the branding topic. I would like to promote usage of > >Debian testing for standard desktop/laptop users in

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

On 01.12.2017 16:34, Scott Kitterman wrote: > Testing doesn't have security support (and since neither the security team > nor maintainers can upload to it, it's the most problematic choice from a > security support perspective). I don't think that's suitable to recommend to > end users of any

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