On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, peasth...@shaw.ca wrote:
... not all that complexity has to be exposed by default.
Yes, needless complexity in an algorithm reduces efficiency
in execution. Needless complexity in an interface reduces
efficiency in use.
* From: Ben Hutchings b...@decadent.org.uk
* Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 15:59:47 +0100
For most people, a computer is just a tool.
You've hit the nail on the head. A personal computer system
should be an efficient tool.
... not all that complexity has to be exposed by default.
Yes,
Hi,
On 2011-04-05 20:37:39 +0300, Andrew O. Shadoura wrote:
Hello,
On Tue, 5 Apr 2011 14:31:40 +0200
Vincent Lefevre vinc...@vinc17.net wrote:
[About the general problem of documentation]
The problem is to find the correct tools and the correct
documentation. For instance, imagine
On 2011-04-06 07:24:30 +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote:
There are several hacks to do that (like guessnet or laptop-net), but I
don’t think this can work correctly in the general case with IPv4.
FYI, I had used laptop-net in the past, but it has been removed
from Debian:
On Wed, Apr 06, 2011 at 02:11:35PM +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
On 2011-04-06 07:24:30 +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote:
There are several hacks to do that (like guessnet or laptop-net), but I
don’t think this can work correctly in the general case with IPv4.
FYI, I had used laptop-net in
Hello,
On Wed, 6 Apr 2011 13:40:43 +0200
Vincent Lefevre vinc...@vinc17.net wrote:
That's not sufficient, because if a DHCP client is still running (e.g.
because the previous configuration used DHCP), one needs to kill it
before using a fixed IP address (in eth-home).
If you do `ifdown`,
On 2011-04-06 18:26:45 +0300, Andrew O. Shadoura wrote:
If you do `ifdown`, either manually or by unplugging the cable, the
problem doesn't appear to exist. Calling ifupdown may be inserted into
the suspend/resume scripts.
I wonder why this isn't done by default.
--
Vincent Lefèvre
* Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org [110404 14:05]:
It seems to be a common belief between some developers that users should
have to read dozens of pages of documentation before attempting to do
anything.
You mix two things up here: Almost noone demands a system that is only
configurable after
On 05 Apr 00:55, Stanislav Maslovski wrote:
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 10:03:12PM +0200, Michelle Konzack wrote:
What I do not understand is WHY the Debian Project can not do an install
in two steps. I mean installing the bare base using ifupdown and if
the user choose the Desktop-Task
On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 07:08:19AM +0100, Brett Parker wrote:
On 05 Apr 00:55, Stanislav Maslovski wrote:
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 10:03:12PM +0200, Michelle Konzack wrote:
What I do not understand is WHY the Debian Project can not do an install
in two steps. I mean installing the bare
]] Stanislav Maslovski
| AFAICT, the main concerns with the current ifupdown-based installation
| process is that its suport of wireless networks is very limited: only
| WEP is supported, and there are problems with lost connections. I am
| pretty sure that these problems may be addressed
In other news for Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 08:15:55AM +0200, Bernhard R. Link has
been seen typing:
But what many people[1] want is that you can make it work if you read some
dozen pages of documentation.
Personally, what I want is a setup that does not drop all active network
interfaces during a
On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 09:10:47AM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
]] Stanislav Maslovski
| AFAICT, the main concerns with the current ifupdown-based installation
| process is that its suport of wireless networks is very limited: only
| WEP is supported, and there are problems with lost
On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 12:09:42PM +0400, Stanislav Maslovski wrote:
On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 09:10:47AM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
]] Stanislav Maslovski
| AFAICT, the main concerns with the current ifupdown-based installation
| process is that its suport of wireless networks is very
On 04/05/2011 05:21 AM, Stanislav Maslovski wrote:
On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 12:09:42PM +0400, Stanislav Maslovski wrote:
On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 09:10:47AM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
]] Stanislav Maslovski
d-i doesn't use ifupdown, it uses netcfg.
Hm, okay, I was pretty sure J.M. at some
On 2011-04-04 17:31:18 +0400, Stanislav Maslovski wrote:
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 05:35:10PM +0530, Josselin Mouette wrote:
It seems to be a common belief between some developers that users should
have to read dozens of pages of documentation before attempting to do
anything.
I’m happy
On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 02:31:40PM +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
On 2011-04-04 17:31:18 +0400, Stanislav Maslovski wrote:
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 05:35:10PM +0530, Josselin Mouette wrote:
It seems to be a common belief between some developers that users should
have to read dozens of pages
Hello,
On Tue, 5 Apr 2011 14:31:40 +0200
Vincent Lefevre vinc...@vinc17.net wrote:
[About the general problem of documentation]
The problem is to find the correct tools and the correct
documentation. For instance, imagine the average user who wants for
Ethernet (eth0), to do the following
On 2011-04-05, Andrew O. Shadoura bugzi...@tut.by wrote:
Of course, man guessnet. Just few lines.
Last time I looked guessnet was orphaned, though.
Kind regards
Philipp Kern
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact
Hi,
Am Dienstag, den 05.04.2011, 17:48 + schrieb Philipp Kern:
On 2011-04-05, Andrew O. Shadoura bugzi...@tut.by wrote:
Of course, man guessnet. Just few lines.
Last time I looked guessnet was orphaned, though.
but still very useful and allowing me to have a great network setup
that,
#include hallo.h
* Kelly Clowers [Mon, Apr 04 2011, 02:06:01PM]:
On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 07:29, Sune Vuorela nos...@vuorela.dk wrote:
I don't consider myself 'stupid user', but I haven't yet been able to
put my laptop on wpa network without the use of network manager.
I never did get nm or
Le mardi 05 avril 2011 à 14:31 +0200, Vincent Lefevre a écrit :
For instance, imagine the average user who wants for Ethernet (eth0),
to do the following automatically (for a laptop):
1. use some fixed IP address if there's some peer 192.168.0.1
with some given MAC address;
There are
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 12:00:01AM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 10:52:33AM +0400, Dmitry E. Oboukhov wrote:
Yes, a user can do anything with ifconfig if his time has no value. I am
happily using network manager on my laptop, because unlike ifconfig it's
easy to
Le lundi 04 avril 2011 à 11:55 +0400, Stanislav Maslovski a écrit :
Well, actually configuring a wireless network with wpa_supplicant and
ifupdown is not hard at all and does not require too much time, _if_ a
user has developed a good habbit of reading documentation first.
It seems to be a
Well, actually configuring a wireless network with wpa_supplicant and
ifupdown is not hard at all and does not require too much time, _if_ a
user has developed a good habbit of reading documentation first.
JM It seems to be a common belief between some developers that users should
JM have to
Le lundi 04 avril 2011 à 16:19 +0400, Dmitry E. Oboukhov a écrit :
User MUST study each OS he uses.
No, he must not. The OS must adapt to the user’s needs, not the
opposite.
If he doesn't want he will be
forced to pay the other people who will tune his (user's) system.
A lot of users
On ma, 2011-04-04 at 16:19 +0400, Dmitry E. Oboukhov wrote:
User MUST study each OS he uses. If he doesn't want he will be
forced to pay the other people who will tune his (user's) system.
I dispute your assertion that our users must study the operating system
we build for them.
I not only
User MUST study each OS he uses.
JM No, he must not. The OS must adapt to the user’s needs, not the
JM opposite.
Create OS that can even be used by stupid and only stupid will use
that.
If he doesn't want he will be
forced to pay the other people who will tune his (user's) system.
JM A lot
On 04/04/2011 10:06 AM, Dmitry E. Oboukhov wrote:
There is only one thing that can be used without reading a manual. It
is a breast. All the other devices (and things, substances, etc)
required to be studied.
While this paraphrase of a familiar quote may be applicable when taken
in context (in
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 05:35:10PM +0530, Josselin Mouette wrote:
Le lundi 04 avril 2011 à 11:55 +0400, Stanislav Maslovski a écrit :
Well, actually configuring a wireless network with wpa_supplicant and
ifupdown is not hard at all and does not require too much time, _if_ a
user has
On 04/04/2011 10:31 AM, Stanislav Maslovski wrote:
I do not think that reading documentation before trying to achieve
something is that elitist. And in the case of wpa_supplicant, it is
definitely not dozens of pages. Basically, it is just
man interfaces
man wpa_supplicant.conf
zless
Le lundi 04 avril 2011 à 10:39 -0300, Ben Armstrong a écrit :
But the average laptop user really does have a hard time with the
status quo. Something needs to change in the next release.
I think squeeze already does a lot better, but there is still work to
do, especially with the installation
On 04/04/2011 11:03 AM, Josselin Mouette wrote:
I think squeeze already does a lot better, but there is still work to
do, especially with the installation process.
On my personal wishlist for wheezy is d-i actually calling NM behind the
scenes to configure the network, instead of ifupdown.
I do not think that reading documentation before trying to achieve
something is that elitist. And in the case of wpa_supplicant, it is
definitely not dozens of pages. Basically, it is just
man interfaces
man wpa_supplicant.conf
zless /usr/share/doc/wpasupplicant/README.Debian.gz
I don't
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 07:33:31PM +0530, Josselin Mouette wrote:
Le lundi 04 avril 2011 à 10:39 -0300, Ben Armstrong a écrit :
But the average laptop user really does have a hard time with the
status quo. Something needs to change in the next release.
I think squeeze already does a lot
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 04:19:30PM +0400, Dmitry E. Oboukhov wrote:
Well, actually configuring a wireless network with wpa_supplicant and
ifupdown is not hard at all and does not require too much time, _if_ a
user has developed a good habbit of reading documentation first.
JM It seems to
Ben Armstrong sy...@sanctuary.nslug.ns.ca writes:
once they manage to make it work, I've *still* seen cafe connections
fail on my lovingly hand-crafted wpa_cli + wpa_supplicant setup that
succeed when I reboot to a Squeeze GNOME live image with NM. I to this
day have not been able to figure
Hi
On Monday 04 April 2011, Sune Vuorela wrote:
I do not think that reading documentation before trying to achieve
something is that elitist. And in the case of wpa_supplicant, it is
definitely not dozens of pages. Basically, it is just
man interfaces
man wpa_supplicant.conf
zless
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 06:06:28PM +0530, Josselin Mouette wrote:
Le lundi 04 avril 2011 à 16:19 +0400, Dmitry E. Oboukhov a écrit :
User MUST study each OS he uses.
No, he must not. The OS must adapt to the user’s needs, not the
opposite.
If he doesn't want he will be
forced to pay
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 06:52:05PM +0400, Stanislav Maslovski wrote:
Sould not there be an option to select between the old network configuration
and NM?
Nowhere have I seen it argued that NM will be the *only* networking solution
for Debian going forward, merely the *default* one. In other
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 07:33:31PM +0530, Josselin Mouette wrote:
Le lundi 04 avril 2011 à 10:39 -0300, Ben Armstrong a écrit :
But the average laptop user really does have a hard time with the
status quo. Something needs to change in the next release.
I think squeeze already does a lot
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 06:35:19PM +0100, Jon Dowland wrote:
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 06:52:05PM +0400, Stanislav Maslovski wrote:
Sould not there be an option to select between the old network configuration
and NM?
Nowhere have I seen it argued that NM will be the *only* networking
On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 2:38 PM, Tzafrir Cohen tzaf...@cohens.org.il wrote:
[...]
It does have system-global config file. But the settings are not
expected to be there. By default the settings are expected to be in the
user directory (has this changed since 0.8?). So I won't easily find it
when
]] Ben Armstrong
(followup to -curiosa, please)
[...]
| That stuff, unlike the nipple, is all learned.
From talking with friends of mine who have babies, that skill is also
very much learned.
--
Tollef Fog Heen
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are
--
To
2011/4/4 Stanislav Maslovski stanislav.maslov...@gmail.com:
I am not happy that network manager bypasses ifconfig to do this; I
would have much preferred a daemon that could properly integrate with
the existing infrastructure we had.
Exactly. There is ifplugd that implements some of the
Dmitry E. Oboukhov un...@debian.org writes:
JM It seems to be a common belief between some developers that users should
JM have to read dozens of pages of documentation before attempting to do
JM anything.
JM I’m happy that not all of us share this elitist view of software. I
JM thought we
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 01:57:10PM -0500, Romain Beauxis wrote:
2011/4/4 Stanislav Maslovski stanislav.maslov...@gmail.com:
I am not happy that network manager bypasses ifconfig to do this; I
would have much preferred a daemon that could properly integrate with
the existing infrastructure
Stanislav Maslovski stanislav.maslov...@gmail.com writes:
I considered using wicd some time ago, but gave up after reading
information from its FAQ:
http://wicd.sourceforge.net/moinmoin/FAQ
The main advantage of wicd from my perspective is that it's a simple and
straightforward solution for
Hello Russ Allbery,
Am 2011-04-04 12:30:24, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
That said, of course for a server build one can just remove Network
Manager and install ifupdown and go on with life. Changing the default
doesn't mean forcing it on everyone. But I think that's much of where the
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 12:30:24PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
[skipped]
It is a profoundly erroneous truism, repeated by all copy-books and by
eminent people when they are making speeches, that we should cultivate the
habit of thinking of what we are doing. The precise opposite is the case.
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 10:03:12PM +0200, Michelle Konzack wrote:
What I do not understand is WHY the Debian Project can not do an install
in two steps. I mean installing the bare base using ifupdown and if
the user choose the Desktop-Task replace it with NM.
AFAICT, the main concerns with
On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 07:29, Sune Vuorela nos...@vuorela.dk wrote:
I do not think that reading documentation before trying to achieve
something is that elitist. And in the case of wpa_supplicant, it is
definitely not dozens of pages. Basically, it is just
man interfaces
man
On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Stefan Lippers-Hollmann s@gmx.de wrote:
[...]
Besides not using netlink internally, ifupdown's biggest drawback in my
personal opinion is not reacting dynamically to changing connection
methods, like switching from wlan0 to eth0, if an ethernet cable gets
On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Mathieu Trudel-Lapierre
mathieu...@gmail.com wrote:
[...]
This said, I don't think NM can be the magic bullet to fix everything.
Even RedHat while shipping NetworkManager on servers last I checked,
still relies on their simpler command-line setup for interfaces.
Russ Allbery writes (Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes!):
That said, for simple server network configuration patterns, ifupdown just
works. I think a lot of the push-back that's happening in this thread is
that replacing ifupdown for the simple but very common case of having one
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 07:39:23PM -0300, Fernando Lemos wrote:
On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Mathieu Trudel-Lapierre
mathieu...@gmail.com wrote:
[...]
This said, I don't think NM can be the magic bullet to fix everything.
Even RedHat while shipping NetworkManager on servers last I
On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 9:20 PM, Stanislav Maslovski
stanislav.maslov...@gmail.com wrote:
[...]
Also note that there are NM plugins that enable NM to understand
/etc/network/interfaces and the Fedora/RHEL counterparts. This means
that if a server has NM enabled and an administrator wants to
]] Kelly Clowers
Hi,
| I never did get nm or wicd to work. Only with ifupdown+wpa_supplicant
| was I able to make WiFi work. This was with an ordinary home router
| with WPA2 PSK and an Atheros PCIe NIC
Without commenting on the whole ifupdown-vs-nm by default issue, I don't
see any bugs filed
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