Re: [sage-devel] Re: Question about make dependencies

[G. M.-S.]

Thanks for sharing this witty article, Karl-Dieter.

Disclaimer:  My knowledge of English is very limited.

Guillermo

On Thu, 16 Nov 2023 at 16:36, kcrisman  wrote:

> To John C's point, and perhaps with the humor that John P intended:
>
> https://daily.jstor.org/in-which-we-science-why-nouns-become-verbs-because-language/
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Question about make dependencies

[G. M.-S.]

Just to say that while I try to build SagMath on macOS, for everyday use I
rely on Marc's app, which works perfectly.
And it is most useful for all macOS users I know, as installation is
straightforward and it works "out of the box".
In fact, I wish the same was true for Windows PCs…

Guillermo

On Tue, 14 Nov 2023 at 20:22, Marc Culler  wrote:

>
> I am serving people who use macOS; more than 8.800 of them in the case of
> Sage 10.1.  I am fairly confident in claiming that the vast majority of
> Sage 10.1 users are using it on macOS from the Sage_macOS app.  Even
> homebrew users are using that app, since it is what gets installed when you
> run "brew install sage" , which works
> fine by the way.
>
> When I started this project you were griping about how many sage-support
> problems were related to macOS installation.  I don't think you can claim
> that to be a problem any more.
>
> - Marc
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Question about make dependencies

[kcrisman]

To John C's point, and perhaps with the humor that John P intended: 
https://daily.jstor.org/in-which-we-science-why-nouns-become-verbs-because-language/

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Question about make dependencies

[John Cremona]

Please all cool it down.

John

On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 at 04:59, John H Palmieri 
wrote:

> If I respond using "verb" as a verb, do you really think I'm seriously
> criticizing you about using "vendor" as a verb? You're telling me to get a
> life? Get a sense of humor.
>
> On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 3:45:07 PM UTC-8 Dima Pasechnik wrote:
>
>> I have not invented the verb "to vendor", I merely picked it up from
>> Python docs and PEPs, e.g.
>> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0518/#configparser
>> (this one was written by  native English speakers, I think)
>>
>> You seem to prefer to pick on my supposedly broken English, rather than
>> read Python docs, as it's much less fun.
>>
>> Get a life.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 14 Nov 2023, 23:19 John H Palmieri,  wrote:
>>
>>> Not all Americans like to verb things so profligately.
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 1:15:07 PM UTC-8 Dima Pasechnik wrote:
>>>


 On Tue, 14 Nov 2023, 20:39 Matthias Koeppe, 
 wrote:

> On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 11:39:52 AM UTC-8 Dima Pasechnik
> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 7:22 PM Marc Culler 
> wrote:
> > On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 11:58 AM Dima Pasechnik 
> wrote:
> >> I imagine it might be an artifact of the design of Sage on Mac app
> >> Marc is releasing:
> >> vendor everything.
> >
> > Vendor is a noun, not a verb.
>
> It's a curse, to be precise, and it slows down the project a lot.
> We have to worry about over 400 packages!!!
> Bloody hell, pardon my UK French, we have more interesting problems to
> work on...
>
>
> FWIW, I consider Marc's effort to provide a self-contained macOS app
> of Sage to be very valuable for the project.
>
> Dima is indeed using the word "vendor" incorrectly. I'm not concerned
> about the grammar; I use it as a verb, too, in this specific context.
> For source code, "vendoring" (= including a copy of the source code of
> a dependency, modified or not, in the source code) is problematic for
> various well known reasons.
> But to accuse a binary distribution of "vendoring" is simply
> meaningless. A binary distribution is made for the benefit of users.
>

 I am not accusing Marc of vendoring, I am saying that him asking to
 supply essentially all the components of Sage in source form is asking too
 much, as it saddles us with extremely heavy maintenance task, for reasons
 questionable.

 Suppose we remove gmp from the list of packages we vendor (yes, "to
 vendor", i.e. "to perform vendoring", may be a verb, as we see here. As
 Americans make verbs out of everything, I find myself being gaslighted here
 by one of them.)

 What then, will it make the task of making a macOS Sage app impossible,
 or much harder, all of a sudden?
 I have trouble believing this.


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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Question about make dependencies

[John H Palmieri]

If I respond using "verb" as a verb, do you really think I'm seriously 
criticizing you about using "vendor" as a verb? You're telling me to get a 
life? Get a sense of humor.

On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 3:45:07 PM UTC-8 Dima Pasechnik wrote:

> I have not invented the verb "to vendor", I merely picked it up from 
> Python docs and PEPs, e.g.
> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0518/#configparser
> (this one was written by  native English speakers, I think)
>
> You seem to prefer to pick on my supposedly broken English, rather than 
> read Python docs, as it's much less fun.
>
> Get a life.
>
>
>
> On Tue, 14 Nov 2023, 23:19 John H Palmieri,  wrote:
>
>> Not all Americans like to verb things so profligately.
>>
>> On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 1:15:07 PM UTC-8 Dima Pasechnik wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, 14 Nov 2023, 20:39 Matthias Koeppe,  
>>> wrote:
>>>
 On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 11:39:52 AM UTC-8 Dima Pasechnik wrote:

 On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 7:22 PM Marc Culler  
 wrote: 
 > On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 11:58 AM Dima Pasechnik  
 wrote: 
 >> I imagine it might be an artifact of the design of Sage on Mac app 
 >> Marc is releasing: 
 >> vendor everything. 
 > 
 > Vendor is a noun, not a verb. 

 It's a curse, to be precise, and it slows down the project a lot. 
 We have to worry about over 400 packages!!! 
 Bloody hell, pardon my UK French, we have more interesting problems to 
 work on...


 FWIW, I consider Marc's effort to provide a self-contained macOS app of 
 Sage to be very valuable for the project.

 Dima is indeed using the word "vendor" incorrectly. I'm not concerned 
 about the grammar; I use it as a verb, too, in this specific context.
 For source code, "vendoring" (= including a copy of the source code of 
 a dependency, modified or not, in the source code) is problematic for 
 various well known reasons.
 But to accuse a binary distribution of "vendoring" is simply 
 meaningless. A binary distribution is made for the benefit of users.

>>>
>>> I am not accusing Marc of vendoring, I am saying that him asking to 
>>> supply essentially all the components of Sage in source form is asking too 
>>> much, as it saddles us with extremely heavy maintenance task, for reasons 
>>> questionable.
>>>
>>> Suppose we remove gmp from the list of packages we vendor (yes, "to 
>>> vendor", i.e. "to perform vendoring", may be a verb, as we see here. As 
>>> Americans make verbs out of everything, I find myself being gaslighted here 
>>> by one of them.)
>>>
>>> What then, will it make the task of making a macOS Sage app impossible, 
>>> or much harder, all of a sudden?
>>> I have trouble believing this.
>>>
>>>
 -- 
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 Groups "sage-devel" group.
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 .

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>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Question about make dependencies

[Dima Pasechnik]

I'm only worried that I know more English words than native speakers...

On Tue, 14 Nov 2023, 23:56 Michael Orlitzky,  wrote:

> On 2023-11-14 23:44:50, Dima Pasechnik wrote:
> > I have not invented the verb "to vendor"
>
> Don't worry, you are in good company:
>
> https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1993/01/25
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Question about make dependencies

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 2023-11-14 23:44:50, Dima Pasechnik wrote:
> I have not invented the verb "to vendor"

Don't worry, you are in good company:

https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1993/01/25

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Question about make dependencies

[Dima Pasechnik]

I have not invented the verb "to vendor", I merely picked it up from Python
docs and PEPs, e.g.
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0518/#configparser
(this one was written by  native English speakers, I think)

You seem to prefer to pick on my supposedly broken English, rather than
read Python docs, as it's much less fun.

Get a life.



On Tue, 14 Nov 2023, 23:19 John H Palmieri,  wrote:

> Not all Americans like to verb things so profligately.
>
> On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 1:15:07 PM UTC-8 Dima Pasechnik wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 14 Nov 2023, 20:39 Matthias Koeppe,  wrote:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 11:39:52 AM UTC-8 Dima Pasechnik wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 7:22 PM Marc Culler  wrote:
>>> > On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 11:58 AM Dima Pasechnik 
>>> wrote:
>>> >> I imagine it might be an artifact of the design of Sage on Mac app
>>> >> Marc is releasing:
>>> >> vendor everything.
>>> >
>>> > Vendor is a noun, not a verb.
>>>
>>> It's a curse, to be precise, and it slows down the project a lot.
>>> We have to worry about over 400 packages!!!
>>> Bloody hell, pardon my UK French, we have more interesting problems to
>>> work on...
>>>
>>>
>>> FWIW, I consider Marc's effort to provide a self-contained macOS app of
>>> Sage to be very valuable for the project.
>>>
>>> Dima is indeed using the word "vendor" incorrectly. I'm not concerned
>>> about the grammar; I use it as a verb, too, in this specific context.
>>> For source code, "vendoring" (= including a copy of the source code of a
>>> dependency, modified or not, in the source code) is problematic for various
>>> well known reasons.
>>> But to accuse a binary distribution of "vendoring" is simply
>>> meaningless. A binary distribution is made for the benefit of users.
>>>
>>
>> I am not accusing Marc of vendoring, I am saying that him asking to
>> supply essentially all the components of Sage in source form is asking too
>> much, as it saddles us with extremely heavy maintenance task, for reasons
>> questionable.
>>
>> Suppose we remove gmp from the list of packages we vendor (yes, "to
>> vendor", i.e. "to perform vendoring", may be a verb, as we see here. As
>> Americans make verbs out of everything, I find myself being gaslighted here
>> by one of them.)
>>
>> What then, will it make the task of making a macOS Sage app impossible,
>> or much harder, all of a sudden?
>> I have trouble believing this.
>>
>>
>>> --
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>>> Groups "sage-devel" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com.
>>>
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/fa119cf9-49bc-4b16-b6af-b1b6fd6584aen%40googlegroups.com
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Question about make dependencies

[John H Palmieri]

Not all Americans like to verb things so profligately.

On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 1:15:07 PM UTC-8 Dima Pasechnik wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, 14 Nov 2023, 20:39 Matthias Koeppe,  wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 11:39:52 AM UTC-8 Dima Pasechnik wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 7:22 PM Marc Culler  wrote: 
>> > On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 11:58 AM Dima Pasechnik  
>> wrote: 
>> >> I imagine it might be an artifact of the design of Sage on Mac app 
>> >> Marc is releasing: 
>> >> vendor everything. 
>> > 
>> > Vendor is a noun, not a verb. 
>>
>> It's a curse, to be precise, and it slows down the project a lot. 
>> We have to worry about over 400 packages!!! 
>> Bloody hell, pardon my UK French, we have more interesting problems to 
>> work on...
>>
>>
>> FWIW, I consider Marc's effort to provide a self-contained macOS app of 
>> Sage to be very valuable for the project.
>>
>> Dima is indeed using the word "vendor" incorrectly. I'm not concerned 
>> about the grammar; I use it as a verb, too, in this specific context.
>> For source code, "vendoring" (= including a copy of the source code of a 
>> dependency, modified or not, in the source code) is problematic for various 
>> well known reasons.
>> But to accuse a binary distribution of "vendoring" is simply meaningless. 
>> A binary distribution is made for the benefit of users.
>>
>
> I am not accusing Marc of vendoring, I am saying that him asking to supply 
> essentially all the components of Sage in source form is asking too much, 
> as it saddles us with extremely heavy maintenance task, for reasons 
> questionable.
>
> Suppose we remove gmp from the list of packages we vendor (yes, "to 
> vendor", i.e. "to perform vendoring", may be a verb, as we see here. As 
> Americans make verbs out of everything, I find myself being gaslighted here 
> by one of them.)
>
> What then, will it make the task of making a macOS Sage app impossible, or 
> much harder, all of a sudden?
> I have trouble believing this.
>
>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "sage-devel" group.
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>> email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com.
>>
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>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/fa119cf9-49bc-4b16-b6af-b1b6fd6584aen%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Question about make dependencies

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Tue, 14 Nov 2023, 20:39 Matthias Koeppe, 
wrote:

> On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 11:39:52 AM UTC-8 Dima Pasechnik wrote:
>
> On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 7:22 PM Marc Culler  wrote:
> > On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 11:58 AM Dima Pasechnik 
> wrote:
> >> I imagine it might be an artifact of the design of Sage on Mac app
> >> Marc is releasing:
> >> vendor everything.
> >
> > Vendor is a noun, not a verb.
>
> It's a curse, to be precise, and it slows down the project a lot.
> We have to worry about over 400 packages!!!
> Bloody hell, pardon my UK French, we have more interesting problems to
> work on...
>
>
> FWIW, I consider Marc's effort to provide a self-contained macOS app of
> Sage to be very valuable for the project.
>
> Dima is indeed using the word "vendor" incorrectly. I'm not concerned
> about the grammar; I use it as a verb, too, in this specific context.
> For source code, "vendoring" (= including a copy of the source code of a
> dependency, modified or not, in the source code) is problematic for various
> well known reasons.
> But to accuse a binary distribution of "vendoring" is simply meaningless.
> A binary distribution is made for the benefit of users.
>

I am not accusing Marc of vendoring, I am saying that him asking to supply
essentially all the components of Sage in source form is asking too much,
as it saddles us with extremely heavy maintenance task, for reasons
questionable.

Suppose we remove gmp from the list of packages we vendor (yes, "to
vendor", i.e. "to perform vendoring", may be a verb, as we see here. As
Americans make verbs out of everything, I find myself being gaslighted here
by one of them.)

What then, will it make the task of making a macOS Sage app impossible, or
much harder, all of a sudden?
I have trouble believing this.


> --
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> "sage-devel" group.
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> 
> .
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Question about make dependencies

[Matthias Koeppe]

On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 11:39:52 AM UTC-8 Dima Pasechnik wrote:

On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 7:22 PM Marc Culler  wrote: 
> On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 11:58 AM Dima Pasechnik  wrote: 
>> I imagine it might be an artifact of the design of Sage on Mac app 
>> Marc is releasing: 
>> vendor everything. 
> 
> Vendor is a noun, not a verb. 

It's a curse, to be precise, and it slows down the project a lot. 
We have to worry about over 400 packages!!! 
Bloody hell, pardon my UK French, we have more interesting problems to 
work on...


FWIW, I consider Marc's effort to provide a self-contained macOS app of 
Sage to be very valuable for the project.

Dima is indeed using the word "vendor" incorrectly. I'm not concerned about 
the grammar; I use it as a verb, too, in this specific context.
For source code, "vendoring" (= including a copy of the source code of a 
dependency, modified or not, in the source code) is problematic for various 
well known reasons.
But to accuse a binary distribution of "vendoring" is simply meaningless. A 
binary distribution is made for the benefit of users.

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Question about make dependencies

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 7:22 PM Marc Culler  wrote:
>
> I was hesitant to send that message because I didn't want to have to go 
> through this again.
>
> On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 11:58 AM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
>>
>> > Does ./configure say why the system copy is unsuitable?
>
>
> There is no system copy.
>
>> I imagine it might be an artifact of the design of Sage on Mac app
>> Marc is releasing:
>
>
> Very likely.
>
>> vendor everything.
>
>
> Vendor is a noun, not a verb.

It's a curse, to be precise, and it slows down the project a lot.
We have to worry  about over 400 packages!!!
Bloody hell, pardon my UK French, we have more interesting problems to
work on...


>
>> Is Apple's software distribution system so dumb that this is the only way?
>
>
> If you think that Apple's requirement that apps be notarized is dumb, then I 
> encourage you to take it up with Apple.  Maybe Don Quixote will join you in 
> the effort.

Apple sucks, but still I don't see how this is relevant here.
You need to package a number of external libraries in your bundle,
why do you need them to be built all at the same swoop?
If a commercial vendor gives you a library, without full source, then
you cannot package it in your app?
Sorry, this sounds rather improbable.
Can't you base your app on a Python.org Python bundle, instead, to begin with?

>
> I am serving people who use macOS; more than 8.800 of them in the case of 
> Sage 10.1.  I am fairly confident in claiming that the vast majority of Sage 
> 10.1 users are using it on macOS from the Sage_macOS app.  Even homebrew 
> users are using that app, since it is what gets installed when you run "brew 
> install sage" , which works fine by the way.

They might well be using Conda.

And Homebrew users might very well build Sage from source, as it's
relatively quick thanks to a large
number of libraries they can use.

>
> When I started this project you were griping about how many sage-support 
> problems were related to macOS installation.  I don't think you can claim 
> that to be a problem any more.

It's still the most cursed platform we need to worry about.

>
> - Marc
>
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Question about make dependencies

[Marc Culler]

Thanks, Matthias.  I will try to remember to check the timestamps next time.

- Marc

On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 12:56 PM Matthias Koeppe 
wrote:

> I don't think this happens in normal development. When this happens in
> your setup, check the mtime of the timestamps in
> local/var/lib/sage/installed.
>
> On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 9:37:09 AM UTC-8 Marc Culler wrote:
>
>> For me, one of the most frustrating parts of building sage is that,
>> whenever a build fails, the make system decides that gmp is out of date and
>> hence I have to wait for it to recompile gmp and all of its dependencies.
>>
>> Is this intentional?
>>
>> Does anyone know why it happens?
>>
>> Is it avoidable?
>>
>> Or am I the only one who sees this?
>>
>> - Marc
>>
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>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Question about make dependencies

[Marc Culler]

I was hesitant to send that message because I didn't want to have to go
through this again.

On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 11:58 AM Dima Pasechnik  wrote:

> > Does ./configure say why the system copy is unsuitable?
>

There is no system copy.

I imagine it might be an artifact of the design of Sage on Mac app
> Marc is releasing:
>

Very likely.

vendor everything.
>

Vendor is a noun, not a verb.

Is Apple's software distribution system so dumb that this is the only way?
>

If you think that Apple's requirement that apps be notarized is dumb, then
I encourage you to take it up with Apple.  Maybe Don Quixote will join you
in the effort.

I am serving people who use macOS; more than 8.800 of them in the case of
Sage 10.1.  I am fairly confident in claiming that the vast majority of
Sage 10.1 users are using it on macOS from the Sage_macOS app.  Even
homebrew users are using that app, since it is what gets installed when you
run "brew install sage" , which works
fine by the way.

When I started this project you were griping about how many sage-support
problems were related to macOS installation.  I don't think you can claim
that to be a problem any more.

- Marc

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[sage-devel] Re: Question about make dependencies

[Matthias Koeppe]

I don't think this happens in normal development. When this happens in your 
setup, check the mtime of the timestamps in local/var/lib/sage/installed.

On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 9:37:09 AM UTC-8 Marc Culler wrote:

> For me, one of the most frustrating parts of building sage is that, 
> whenever a build fails, the make system decides that gmp is out of date and 
> hence I have to wait for it to recompile gmp and all of its dependencies.
>
> Is this intentional?
>
> Does anyone know why it happens?
>
> Is it avoidable?
>
> Or am I the only one who sees this?
>
> - Marc
>
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Question about make dependencies

[Dima Pasechnik]

On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 5:50 PM Michael Orlitzky  wrote:
>
> On Tue, 2023-11-14 at 09:42 -0800, Marc Culler wrote:
> > Of course I meant that I have to wait for everything that *depends on* gmp
> > to be recompiled.  Also, this happens when there is nothing wrong with the
> > gmp build.  The make system decides that it is out of date even though the
> > build was successful and the package was installed.
>
> I think most of us have the system copy of gmp detected by ./configure,
> so there could very well be a bug that we haven't noticed. But ideally
> you should also be using the system copy of gmp.
>
> Does ./configure say why the system copy is unsuitable?

I imagine it might be an artifact of the design of Sage on Mac app
Marc is releasing:
vendor everything.
Is Apple's software distribution system so dumb that this is the only way?
I hope it is not, and we can get rid of "sage toolchain" kludge which
is most probably behind
this weirdness...


>
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Question about make dependencies

[Michael Orlitzky]

On Tue, 2023-11-14 at 09:42 -0800, Marc Culler wrote:
> Of course I meant that I have to wait for everything that *depends on* gmp 
> to be recompiled.  Also, this happens when there is nothing wrong with the 
> gmp build.  The make system decides that it is out of date even though the 
> build was successful and the package was installed.

I think most of us have the system copy of gmp detected by ./configure,
so there could very well be a bug that we haven't noticed. But ideally
you should also be using the system copy of gmp.

Does ./configure say why the system copy is unsuitable?

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[sage-devel] Re: Question about make dependencies

[Marc Culler]

Of course I meant that I have to wait for everything that *depends on* gmp 
to be recompiled.  Also, this happens when there is nothing wrong with the 
gmp build.  The make system decides that it is out of date even though the 
build was successful and the package was installed.

- Marc

On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 11:37:09 AM UTC-6 Marc Culler wrote:

> For me, one of the most frustrating parts of building sage is that, 
> whenever a build fails, the make system decides that gmp is out of date and 
> hence I have to wait for it to recompile gmp and all of its dependencies.
>
> Is this intentional?
>
> Does anyone know why it happens?
>
> Is it avoidable?
>
> Or am I the only one who sees this?
>
> - Marc
>
>

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