Re: [sage-devel] Google Season of Docs – org application deadline April 2

[Kwankyu Lee]

... we have a gap between the reference manual (which is extensive but has 
no flow) and the thematic tutorials (which are written to tell a story but 
are just introductions). 


 I agree. 

- It is very hard to find features and learn how to use them for a subject 
that I am not already familiar with (and also hard with a subject I am 
familiar with).
- Except the reference manual, all docs are more or less outdated, and no 
one is updating them.

I think the reference manual and the thematic tutorials should be combined. 
Each chapter of the reference manual of a subject or theme should have an 
introductory tutorial that explains major features Sage provides in the 
subject and how to use them. The chapter should be updated whenever a major 
feature is added to the subject.

I don't think we can find a "technical writer" to do the work outside of 
the sage community. Subject experts or major contributors to the subject 
would be the best technical writers to do the work. The fund may be used to 
support them to devote their time for the work.

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Re: [sage-devel] Google Season of Docs – org application deadline April 2

[Dima Pasechnik]

On 11 March 2024 05:39:36 GMT, John H Palmieri  wrote:
>Dima's suggestion is appealing, and somewhat along those lines, I like the 
>idea changing Sage to use some standard documentation style 
>(https://github.com/sagemath/sage/issues/31044). If the program provides a 
>technical writer, though, those may not be suitable goals. 

The program only provides funds. Organisations have to find people to employ as 
"technical writers", but in a wide sense of the word, such a person can work on 
Sphinx-related stuff.

If one proposes the task  "documentation restructuring", Sphinx falls within 
the remit of such a task, IMHO.


> A quick glance 
>at least year's awards suggests a focus more on the writing and the 
>content, not how it is technically presented or generated.
>
>I don't know the whole history of our documentation, but at least some 
>versions of it were written by people with no knowledge of how to write 
>good software documentation — speaking only for myself and the parts that 
>I've worked on. I'm guessing that a technical writer's eyes might spot 
>things and see ways to improve them. We have lots of documentation, and I 
>think that some of it is very good, probably explains lots of things 
>clearly, but it may not always be written with the right audience in mind. 
>I think we could use more organization surrounding the tutorial, the 
>thematic tutorials, the PREP tutorials, constructions in Sage, a tour of 
>Sage, and the FAQ; this could very well make the documentation more 
>accessible and allow users to find documentation at the right level and 
>with the right content for what they're trying to do. All of that is the 
>documentation that we hope new users look at, and in my opinion that's 
>where we should focus.
>
>
>
>On Sunday, March 10, 2024 at 8:00:03 PM UTC-7 David Roe wrote:
>
>> I think the main question is who is willing to take the lead on writing 
>> and submitting applications (before April 2).  I don't have enough time in 
>> the next three weeks to do any writing, but I am willing to help brainstorm 
>> what form the proposal(s) should take and help edit proposals if someone 
>> else volunteers to write them.
>> David
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 6:18 PM Matthias Koeppe  
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, we could prepare several proposals for separate projects. 
>>> One can see in the lists of past funded projects that some organizations 
>>> have received funding for two simultaneous projects.
>>>
>>> On Sunday, March 10, 2024 at 8:38:13 AM UTC-7 John Cremona wrote:
>>>
 Should there not be separate projects for documenting (1) building and 
 installing Sage; (2) using Sage (perhaps with some subject-specific 
 tutorials, some of which exist but might be worth updating) and (3) 
 documenting individual Sage functions and methods.

 These require different expertise, for example I recently found a badly 
 misleading docstring in the elliptic curves section, but only someone with 
 the right expertise would be able to rewrite it properly (yes, I will 
 create an issue for this soon!)

 John

 On Sun, 10 Mar 2024 at 15:03, David Roe  wrote:

> I think this would be good for Sage.  I think there are several 
> decisions to be made:
> * What are our most pressing documentation needs?  Personally, I think 
> we have a gap between the reference manual (which is extensive but has no 
> flow) and the thematic tutorials (which are written to tell a story but 
> are 
> just introductions).  I also poked around online for criticisms of Sage's 
> documentation and found complaints about not having separate pages for 
> each function  
> (compared to Mathematica's), some suggestions here 
> 
>  
> about focusing on aspects of Sage commonly used by beginners (like 
> plotting).
> * Who will be involved in applying and supervising the project?  This 
> could be a group or a single person.  I can help a bit, but I can't take 
> the lead.
> David
>
> On Sat, Mar 9, 2024 at 5:13 PM Matthias Koeppe  
> wrote:
>
>> SageMath could benefit from hiring a technical writer for a project to 
>> improve the Sage documentation. Google Season of Docs is a program 
>> that supports such projects. Some key facts:
>> - total project budget $5,000 - $15,000 USD (via OpenCollective) - 
>> https://developers.google.com/season-of-docs/docs/org-payments
>> - starts April 10 (or May 22 the latest), ends November 22, 2024 - 
>> https://developers.google.com/season-of-docs/docs/timeline
>>
>> Several of our peer projects (NumPy, Matplotlib, SymPy, R, Geomstats) 
>> are among the orgs that appear to have made successful use of this 
>> program 
>> in the past few years, see 
>> 

Re: [sage-devel] Google Season of Docs – org application deadline April 2

[John H Palmieri]

Dima's suggestion is appealing, and somewhat along those lines, I like the 
idea changing Sage to use some standard documentation style 
(https://github.com/sagemath/sage/issues/31044). If the program provides a 
technical writer, though, those may not be suitable goals. A quick glance 
at least year's awards suggests a focus more on the writing and the 
content, not how it is technically presented or generated.

I don't know the whole history of our documentation, but at least some 
versions of it were written by people with no knowledge of how to write 
good software documentation — speaking only for myself and the parts that 
I've worked on. I'm guessing that a technical writer's eyes might spot 
things and see ways to improve them. We have lots of documentation, and I 
think that some of it is very good, probably explains lots of things 
clearly, but it may not always be written with the right audience in mind. 
I think we could use more organization surrounding the tutorial, the 
thematic tutorials, the PREP tutorials, constructions in Sage, a tour of 
Sage, and the FAQ; this could very well make the documentation more 
accessible and allow users to find documentation at the right level and 
with the right content for what they're trying to do. All of that is the 
documentation that we hope new users look at, and in my opinion that's 
where we should focus.



On Sunday, March 10, 2024 at 8:00:03 PM UTC-7 David Roe wrote:

> I think the main question is who is willing to take the lead on writing 
> and submitting applications (before April 2).  I don't have enough time in 
> the next three weeks to do any writing, but I am willing to help brainstorm 
> what form the proposal(s) should take and help edit proposals if someone 
> else volunteers to write them.
> David
>
> On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 6:18 PM Matthias Koeppe  
> wrote:
>
>> Yes, we could prepare several proposals for separate projects. 
>> One can see in the lists of past funded projects that some organizations 
>> have received funding for two simultaneous projects.
>>
>> On Sunday, March 10, 2024 at 8:38:13 AM UTC-7 John Cremona wrote:
>>
>>> Should there not be separate projects for documenting (1) building and 
>>> installing Sage; (2) using Sage (perhaps with some subject-specific 
>>> tutorials, some of which exist but might be worth updating) and (3) 
>>> documenting individual Sage functions and methods.
>>>
>>> These require different expertise, for example I recently found a badly 
>>> misleading docstring in the elliptic curves section, but only someone with 
>>> the right expertise would be able to rewrite it properly (yes, I will 
>>> create an issue for this soon!)
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> On Sun, 10 Mar 2024 at 15:03, David Roe  wrote:
>>>
 I think this would be good for Sage.  I think there are several 
 decisions to be made:
 * What are our most pressing documentation needs?  Personally, I think 
 we have a gap between the reference manual (which is extensive but has no 
 flow) and the thematic tutorials (which are written to tell a story but 
 are 
 just introductions).  I also poked around online for criticisms of Sage's 
 documentation and found complaints about not having separate pages for 
 each function  
 (compared to Mathematica's), some suggestions here 
 
  
 about focusing on aspects of Sage commonly used by beginners (like 
 plotting).
 * Who will be involved in applying and supervising the project?  This 
 could be a group or a single person.  I can help a bit, but I can't take 
 the lead.
 David

 On Sat, Mar 9, 2024 at 5:13 PM Matthias Koeppe  
 wrote:

> SageMath could benefit from hiring a technical writer for a project to 
> improve the Sage documentation. Google Season of Docs is a program 
> that supports such projects. Some key facts:
> - total project budget $5,000 - $15,000 USD (via OpenCollective) - 
> https://developers.google.com/season-of-docs/docs/org-payments
> - starts April 10 (or May 22 the latest), ends November 22, 2024 - 
> https://developers.google.com/season-of-docs/docs/timeline
>
> Several of our peer projects (NumPy, Matplotlib, SymPy, R, Geomstats) 
> are among the orgs that appear to have made successful use of this 
> program 
> in the past few years, see 
> https://developers.google.com/season-of-docs/docs/2023/participants 
> etc.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> Groups "sage-devel" group.
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> an email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> 

Re: [sage-devel] Google Season of Docs – org application deadline April 2

[David Roe]

I think the main question is who is willing to take the lead on writing and
submitting applications (before April 2).  I don't have enough time in the
next three weeks to do any writing, but I am willing to help brainstorm
what form the proposal(s) should take and help edit proposals if someone
else volunteers to write them.
David

On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 6:18 PM Matthias Koeppe 
wrote:

> Yes, we could prepare several proposals for separate projects.
> One can see in the lists of past funded projects that some organizations
> have received funding for two simultaneous projects.
>
> On Sunday, March 10, 2024 at 8:38:13 AM UTC-7 John Cremona wrote:
>
>> Should there not be separate projects for documenting (1) building and
>> installing Sage; (2) using Sage (perhaps with some subject-specific
>> tutorials, some of which exist but might be worth updating) and (3)
>> documenting individual Sage functions and methods.
>>
>> These require different expertise, for example I recently found a badly
>> misleading docstring in the elliptic curves section, but only someone with
>> the right expertise would be able to rewrite it properly (yes, I will
>> create an issue for this soon!)
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Sun, 10 Mar 2024 at 15:03, David Roe  wrote:
>>
>>> I think this would be good for Sage.  I think there are several
>>> decisions to be made:
>>> * What are our most pressing documentation needs?  Personally, I think
>>> we have a gap between the reference manual (which is extensive but has no
>>> flow) and the thematic tutorials (which are written to tell a story but are
>>> just introductions).  I also poked around online for criticisms of Sage's
>>> documentation and found complaints about not having separate pages for
>>> each function  (compared
>>> to Mathematica's), some suggestions here
>>> 
>>> about focusing on aspects of Sage commonly used by beginners (like
>>> plotting).
>>> * Who will be involved in applying and supervising the project?  This
>>> could be a group or a single person.  I can help a bit, but I can't take
>>> the lead.
>>> David
>>>
>>> On Sat, Mar 9, 2024 at 5:13 PM Matthias Koeppe 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 SageMath could benefit from hiring a technical writer for a project to
 improve the Sage documentation. Google Season of Docs is a program
 that supports such projects. Some key facts:
 - total project budget $5,000 - $15,000 USD (via OpenCollective) -
 https://developers.google.com/season-of-docs/docs/org-payments
 - starts April 10 (or May 22 the latest), ends November 22, 2024 -
 https://developers.google.com/season-of-docs/docs/timeline

 Several of our peer projects (NumPy, Matplotlib, SymPy, R, Geomstats)
 are among the orgs that appear to have made successful use of this program
 in the past few years, see
 https://developers.google.com/season-of-docs/docs/2023/participants
 etc.

 Thoughts?

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 .

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>>> 
>>> .
>>>
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Re: [sage-devel] Google Season of Docs – org application deadline April 2

[Matthias Koeppe]

Yes, we could prepare several proposals for separate projects. 
One can see in the lists of past funded projects that some organizations 
have received funding for two simultaneous projects.

On Sunday, March 10, 2024 at 8:38:13 AM UTC-7 John Cremona wrote:

> Should there not be separate projects for documenting (1) building and 
> installing Sage; (2) using Sage (perhaps with some subject-specific 
> tutorials, some of which exist but might be worth updating) and (3) 
> documenting individual Sage functions and methods.
>
> These require different expertise, for example I recently found a badly 
> misleading docstring in the elliptic curves section, but only someone with 
> the right expertise would be able to rewrite it properly (yes, I will 
> create an issue for this soon!)
>
> John
>
> On Sun, 10 Mar 2024 at 15:03, David Roe  wrote:
>
>> I think this would be good for Sage.  I think there are several decisions 
>> to be made:
>> * What are our most pressing documentation needs?  Personally, I think we 
>> have a gap between the reference manual (which is extensive but has no 
>> flow) and the thematic tutorials (which are written to tell a story but are 
>> just introductions).  I also poked around online for criticisms of Sage's 
>> documentation and found complaints about not having separate pages for 
>> each function  (compared 
>> to Mathematica's), some suggestions here 
>> 
>>  
>> about focusing on aspects of Sage commonly used by beginners (like 
>> plotting).
>> * Who will be involved in applying and supervising the project?  This 
>> could be a group or a single person.  I can help a bit, but I can't take 
>> the lead.
>> David
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 9, 2024 at 5:13 PM Matthias Koeppe  
>> wrote:
>>
>>> SageMath could benefit from hiring a technical writer for a project to 
>>> improve the Sage documentation. Google Season of Docs is a program that 
>>> supports such projects. Some key facts:
>>> - total project budget $5,000 - $15,000 USD (via OpenCollective) - 
>>> https://developers.google.com/season-of-docs/docs/org-payments
>>> - starts April 10 (or May 22 the latest), ends November 22, 2024 - 
>>> https://developers.google.com/season-of-docs/docs/timeline
>>>
>>> Several of our peer projects (NumPy, Matplotlib, SymPy, R, Geomstats) 
>>> are among the orgs that appear to have made successful use of this program 
>>> in the past few years, see 
>>> https://developers.google.com/season-of-docs/docs/2023/participants etc.
>>>
>>> Thoughts?
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>> Groups "sage-devel" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>>> an email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/32bf06f2-6c35-40a9-855c-857c7af23799n%40googlegroups.com
>>>  
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>> -- 
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> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/CAChs6_mEgnbGQgJQHuT9rXLJZMtitYe1CxkUG9Fy0iFGqONRHg%40mail.gmail.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Google Season of Docs – org application deadline April 2

[Dima Pasechnik]

Not sure whether switching Sage to standard Sphinx/Python docbuilding tools
falls within the remit  of the Season of Docs, but it's surely a worthwhile
project - in particular if we can get funds for it.


On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 3:03 PM David Roe  wrote:

> I think this would be good for Sage.  I think there are several decisions
> to be made:
> * What are our most pressing documentation needs?  Personally, I think we
> have a gap between the reference manual (which is extensive but has no
> flow) and the thematic tutorials (which are written to tell a story but are
> just introductions).  I also poked around online for criticisms of Sage's
> documentation and found complaints about not having separate pages for
> each function  (compared
> to Mathematica's), some suggestions here
> 
> about focusing on aspects of Sage commonly used by beginners (like
> plotting).
> * Who will be involved in applying and supervising the project?  This
> could be a group or a single person.  I can help a bit, but I can't take
> the lead.
> David
>
> On Sat, Mar 9, 2024 at 5:13 PM Matthias Koeppe 
> wrote:
>
>> SageMath could benefit from hiring a technical writer for a project to
>> improve the Sage documentation. Google Season of Docs is a program that
>> supports such projects. Some key facts:
>> - total project budget $5,000 - $15,000 USD (via OpenCollective) -
>> https://developers.google.com/season-of-docs/docs/org-payments
>> - starts April 10 (or May 22 the latest), ends November 22, 2024 -
>> https://developers.google.com/season-of-docs/docs/timeline
>>
>> Several of our peer projects (NumPy, Matplotlib, SymPy, R, Geomstats) are
>> among the orgs that appear to have made successful use of this program in
>> the past few years, see
>> https://developers.google.com/season-of-docs/docs/2023/participants etc.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "sage-devel" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/32bf06f2-6c35-40a9-855c-857c7af23799n%40googlegroups.com
>> 
>> .
>>
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> 
> .
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Google Season of Docs – org application deadline April 2

[John Cremona]

Should there not be separate projects for documenting (1) building and
installing Sage; (2) using Sage (perhaps with some subject-specific
tutorials, some of which exist but might be worth updating) and (3)
documenting individual Sage functions and methods.

These require different expertise, for example I recently found a badly
misleading docstring in the elliptic curves section, but only someone with
the right expertise would be able to rewrite it properly (yes, I will
create an issue for this soon!)

John

On Sun, 10 Mar 2024 at 15:03, David Roe  wrote:

> I think this would be good for Sage.  I think there are several decisions
> to be made:
> * What are our most pressing documentation needs?  Personally, I think we
> have a gap between the reference manual (which is extensive but has no
> flow) and the thematic tutorials (which are written to tell a story but are
> just introductions).  I also poked around online for criticisms of Sage's
> documentation and found complaints about not having separate pages for
> each function  (compared
> to Mathematica's), some suggestions here
> 
> about focusing on aspects of Sage commonly used by beginners (like
> plotting).
> * Who will be involved in applying and supervising the project?  This
> could be a group or a single person.  I can help a bit, but I can't take
> the lead.
> David
>
> On Sat, Mar 9, 2024 at 5:13 PM Matthias Koeppe 
> wrote:
>
>> SageMath could benefit from hiring a technical writer for a project to
>> improve the Sage documentation. Google Season of Docs is a program that
>> supports such projects. Some key facts:
>> - total project budget $5,000 - $15,000 USD (via OpenCollective) -
>> https://developers.google.com/season-of-docs/docs/org-payments
>> - starts April 10 (or May 22 the latest), ends November 22, 2024 -
>> https://developers.google.com/season-of-docs/docs/timeline
>>
>> Several of our peer projects (NumPy, Matplotlib, SymPy, R, Geomstats) are
>> among the orgs that appear to have made successful use of this program in
>> the past few years, see
>> https://developers.google.com/season-of-docs/docs/2023/participants etc.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "sage-devel" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/32bf06f2-6c35-40a9-855c-857c7af23799n%40googlegroups.com
>> 
>> .
>>
> --
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> 
> .
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Google Season of Docs – org application deadline April 2

[David Roe]

I think this would be good for Sage.  I think there are several decisions
to be made:
* What are our most pressing documentation needs?  Personally, I think we
have a gap between the reference manual (which is extensive but has no
flow) and the thematic tutorials (which are written to tell a story but are
just introductions).  I also poked around online for criticisms of Sage's
documentation and found complaints about not having separate pages for each
function  (compared to
Mathematica's), some suggestions here

about focusing on aspects of Sage commonly used by beginners (like
plotting).
* Who will be involved in applying and supervising the project?  This could
be a group or a single person.  I can help a bit, but I can't take the lead.
David

On Sat, Mar 9, 2024 at 5:13 PM Matthias Koeppe 
wrote:

> SageMath could benefit from hiring a technical writer for a project to
> improve the Sage documentation. Google Season of Docs is a program that
> supports such projects. Some key facts:
> - total project budget $5,000 - $15,000 USD (via OpenCollective) -
> https://developers.google.com/season-of-docs/docs/org-payments
> - starts April 10 (or May 22 the latest), ends November 22, 2024 -
> https://developers.google.com/season-of-docs/docs/timeline
>
> Several of our peer projects (NumPy, Matplotlib, SymPy, R, Geomstats) are
> among the orgs that appear to have made successful use of this program in
> the past few years, see
> https://developers.google.com/season-of-docs/docs/2023/participants etc.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "sage-devel" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
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