On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 9:13 PM James Cameron <qu...@laptop.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 01:29:56PM -0500, Devin Ulibarri wrote: > > Hi, > > > > This was my experience: > > > > • I came into SugarLabs community at the time that this migration was > > beginning to happen. > > • I started a GH account because that is where I was told the software > was > > being maintained. > > • I have continued to "go with the flow" and work via GH although I > have come > > to understand more of the history and context of this matter. > > > > These are my thoughts and opinions: > > > > • I remember an argument that one reason to move to GH is "that is > where all > > the developers are", but since our migration I have seen so many kids > > (usually GCI) set up new accounts with GH in order to contribute to > SL (and > > to participate in GCI). This makes me think that many people are > willing to > > join our development regardless of whatever tools/services we use, > and > > whatever tool/services we use, if they are not yet setup with them, > they > > are willing to get setup in order to join development. > > • Another argument seems to boil down to "we will be more productive > using GH > > because we need not worry about the hassle of maintaining our own > code > > hosting service". Is there evidence that we are more productive now > than > > before? Not having the opportunity to learn/use the other systems, I > would > > only be guessing. > > Not much evidence, it's about the same. Like any tooling, you get > good at it with time. More productive now through the pull request > and issue integration, but less productive through loss of situational > awareness; changes are hidden in GitHub rather than being posted to > sugar-devel@, and new developers fixate on their favourite > repositories. > > > • In theory, SL running its own version control, seems to me like it > would be > > a) more fun for someone interested in this kind of work, b) a > learning > > opportunity, and c) gives maximum freedom/flexibility to the ways in > which > > we would like to do development. > > git.sugarlabs.org hasn't needed any significant maintenance, and is > probably insecure now because of vulnerabilities that haven't been > patched. > > bugs.sugarlabs.org has needed updates, but they have generally worked > well. > The spam issue made it almost unusable. > > > • I would rather be using software that is licensed under a FLOSS > license > > than a proprietary license. gnu.org came up with some criteria to > evaluate > > "code hosting services" such as GH: [1]https://www.gnu.org/software/ > > repo-criteria.html (which, btw, gets an "F", the lowest grade) The > whole > > reason I am in this in the first place is because I believe the > free/libre > > model of software to be the best for society and education. > > Yes, I agree. Setting up an instance of GitLab could be done, but we > would need someone willing to do that and maintain it. Or we could > use GitLab directly as other projects have done. > What does that accomplish at this point? (That being said, I use GitLab for other projects and it works just fine.) > > > > > Devin > > > > On Tue, 2019-01-22 at 07:15 +0200, Tony Anderson wrote: > > > > Walter, > > > > I will try. I am moving on Feb 3 to Palawan. I'll try to get to it > then. My > > principal concern re GSOC is to define projects with manageable > scope - > > many of the past projects ended undelivered. > > > > Tony > > > > On 1/21/19 3:10 PM, Walter Bender wrote: > > > > On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 3:44 AM James Cameron <[2] > qu...@laptop.org> > > wrote: > > > > Fascinating, I never thought the move to GitHub was ever > going to > > achieve all that. It was to enable a shutdown of the > unmaintained > > gitorious instance at [3]git.sugarlabs.org. Which still > hasn't > > happened > > because it is still useful, in turn because this community > hasn't > > the > > time to do the necessary leg work to finish the move to > GitHub. > > > > I would be curious what is still on Gitorious that hasn't been > > migrated. > > > > FWIW, my principle motivations for the move were (1) as James > points > > out -- on less piece of infrastructure for us to maintain; and > (2) > > GitHub for better or worse is much more familiar to and likely > to be > > discovered by potential developers. I think GH has been a decent > tool > > which requires minimal effort on our part. Not sure that the > latter > > really amounts to too much. > > > > Re Tony's point about the ownership model, I don't see that > anything we > > are doing suggests we don't want to continue to support > individual > > contributions. I interpreted James's list not as a matter of > ownership > > but rather a surfacing of what is actually happening re > maintenance. In > > some sense, what is being articulated is the equivalent of the > Fructose > > vs Honey nomenclature of the past where the core developers are > saying: > > "These activities will be maintained. Cannot speak for everything > > else." > > > > That said, I think Tony makes a great point re thinking about the > > pedagogical implications of our choices, which have had little > if any > > input from the learning side of the house. Would be great to get > more > > input to help us in regard to what is most valuable to our users > > (whether they know it or not). [4]@Tony Anderson would be great > if you > > could rework you thoughts about Python into a GSoC idea. > > > > regards. > > > > -walter > > > > > > In short, it has nothing to do with the tools, and > everything to do > > with contributors. > > > > I'll continue to focus on the activities I've got on my > list. That > > doesn't mean I won't help with the other activities, but I > won't > > necessarily spend as much time with the others. > > > > On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 09:12:01AM +0200, Tony Anderson > wrote: > > > While it is marvelous to see some actual attention to the > Sugar > > activities, > > > this approach is the direct opposite of the logic behind > the move > > of the > > > activities to gitHub. This is a return to the G1G1 model > in which > > individuals > > > develop, contribute and own activities. There can be no > abandoned > > or orphaned > > > activities in a community support model. > > > > > > It was recognized by Walter and others that there were two > > factors which made > > > that ownership model unworkable. First, changes in Sugar > software > > support such > > > as the move to GTK3 made common changes to all activities > > necessary and, > > > second, that many of the original contributors are no > longer > > involved with > > > Sugar. > > > > > > GitHub was touted as the way in which Sugar Labs as a > community > > would support > > > Sugar and its library of activities. However, in practice > support > > for > > > activities has become increasingly limited to a small > number of > > ones selected > > > for inclusion in the 13.2 series of builds. > > > > > > The Sugar activities library is made available to our > users via > > ASLO. > > > Unfortunately, there are activities with new versions in > gitHub > > which have not > > > been released to ASLO and thus are unknown to our users. > There is > > even > > > confusion over which 'github'. It has to be kept clear that > > developers can use > > > any method they chose. What is controlled is the > repository on > > gitHub. Any > > > changes outside of the Sugar Labs github are invisible > until they > > are submitted > > > as a new version. > > > > > > Educational intent > > > > > > What I would like to see is a return to the founding > philosophy > > of Sugar. > > > Everyone is welcome to contribute. When you get 10 lines > of code > > working, > > > submit your activity. Sugar is designed to provide all the > > software tools > > > needed to develop activities in Sugar - no > cross-development, > > containers, or > > > virtual environments. Instead of requesting new > contributors to > > demonstrate > > > their technical proficiency by putting their name on the > XO icon > > in the Home > > > View, identify some real examples of changes that would > improve > > Sugar. There > > > are plenty available: > > > > > > Fix the icons on 'my settings' so they are visible instead > of > > switching to > > > gnome by clicking on the big toe. > > > When you take a screenshot and switch to the Journal to > give it a > > title, you > > > must use the Frame to return, not the Activity key. > > > The kids love the ability to customize their laptop with a > > background picture. > > > Unfortunately this often makes the icons in the Home View > > invisible. > > > Add Jupyter Notebook as a built-in capability of Sugar > (possibly > > as a service > > > of Browse). > > > Help solve problems with a long list of activities (such > as the > > lack of sound > > > in Block Party). > > > Find a way for Browse to support the css FlexBox. > > > > > > Stop using Pippy as a ceiling to our users learning to > program in > > Python. They > > > can work up to 'Make your own Sugar Activities'. Start > with the > > Hello World > > > activity. Explain GTK and its benefits. PyDebug provides > recipes > > for many > > > common coding situations. Stop hiding the Terminal and Log > > activities - try to > > > encourage them to become favorites. Soon we could see a new > > generation of > > > user-programmers as we did in Uruguay. > > > > > > Along this theme, we should embrace the RPI and its > compatriots > > as a way to > > > make embedded computing tangible. It would not be > difficult to > > connect such a > > > device via the Ad Hoc network so that it could be used to > > transfer a program > > > written on an XO to the device and execute it with the user > > seeing the results > > > on LEDs (e.g. Sense Hat). > > > > > > Tony > > > > > > On 1/20/19 3:48 PM, Walter Bender wrote: > > > > > > I noticed Dimensions fell off the list. I will take > that one > > on as I think > > > it is of real value. > > > > > > -walter > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 8:44 AM James Cameron <[1][5] > > qu...@laptop.org> wrote: > > > > > > Thanks. So the list looks like; > > > > > > # Walter Bender > > > > > > * Music Blocks, > > > * Turtle Blocks JS, > > > > > > # Rahul Bothra > > > > > > * CowBulls, > > > * Flappy, > > > * Cedit, > > > * Polari, > > > > > > # James Cameron > > > > > > * Abacus, > > > * Browse (master), > > > * Browse (fedora 18 - webkit - v157.x), > > > * Calculator, > > > * Chart, > > > * Chat, > > > * Clock, > > > * Develop, > > > * Distance, > > > * Finance, > > > * Find Words, > > > * Fototoon, > > > * Fraction Bounce, > > > * Gears, > > > * GetBooks, > > > * Help, > > > * ImageViewer, > > > * Implode, > > > * Jukebox, > > > * Labyrinth, > > > * Letters, > > > * Log, > > > * Maze, > > > * Measure, > > > * Memorize, > > > * Moon (master), > > > * Moon (fedora 18 - gtk2 - v17.x), > > > * MusicKeyboard (master), > > > * MusicKeyboard (fedora 18 - csound - v8.x), > > > * Paint, > > > * Physics, > > > * Pippy, > > > * Poll, > > > * Portfolio, > > > * Read (master), > > > * Read (fedora 18 - webkit - v118.x), > > > * Record (master), > > > * Record (fedora 18 - gstreamer - v10x), > > > * SimpleEnglishWikipedia, > > > * Speak, > > > * StopWatch, > > > * Story, > > > * Terminal, > > > * TurtleBlocks, > > > * Words, > > > * Write, > > > > > > On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 09:04:50AM -0500, Walter > Bender > > wrote: > > > > I am actively maintaining Music Blocks and Turtle > > Blocks JS. > > > > I just haven't had the bandwidth to do much > beyond that > > of late. That > > > said, I > > > > am happy to kibbutz on any of the activities > which I > > used to > > > maintain. > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 3:11 AM Rahul Bothra > <[1][2] > > > [6]rrbot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > * > > > > I am maintaining CowBulls and Flappy. > > > > > > > > I can take up cedit and Polari > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 12:53 PM James > Cameron <[2] > > [3] > > > [7]qu...@laptop.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > Once we had a list of abandoned > activities, > > where the > > > maintainer is > > > > missing in action, not doing testing or > > releasing. > > > > > > > > Now, I propose the inverse; a list of > > activities with a > > > maintainer > > > > testing and releasing. It will be > easier to > > maintain that > > > list. > > > > > > > > For myself, each of the Fructose > activities, > > each of the > > > activities we > > > > ship on OLPC OS. I know Walter is > looking > > after Music > > > Blocks. Lionel > > > > is looking after Sugarizer. Are there > any > > other developers > > > who are > > > > maintainers? > > > > > > > > -- > > > > James Cameron > > > > [3][4][8]http://quozl.netrek.org/ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Sugar-devel mailing list > > > > [4][5][9]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > > > > [5][6][10] > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/ > > sugar-devel > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Sugar-devel mailing list > > > > [6][7][11]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > > > > [7][8][12] > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/ > > sugar-devel > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Walter Bender > > > > Sugar Labs > > > > [8][9][13]http://www.sugarlabs.org > > > > [9] > > > > > > > > References: > > > > > > > > [1] mailto:[10][14]rrbot...@gmail.com > > > > [2] mailto:[11][15]qu...@laptop.org > > > > [3] [12][16]http://quozl.netrek.org/ > > > > [4] mailto:[13][17] > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > > > > [5] [14][18]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/ > > sugar-devel > > > > [6] mailto:[15][19] > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > > > > [7] [16][20]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/ > > sugar-devel > > > > [8] [17][21]http://www.sugarlabs.org/ > > > > [9] [18][22]http://www.sugarlabs.org/ > > > > > > -- > > > James Cameron > > > [19][23]http://quozl.netrek.org/ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sugar-devel mailing list > > > [20][24]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > > > [21][25] > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > > > > > -- > > > Walter Bender > > > Sugar Labs > > > [22][26]http://www.sugarlabs.org > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sugar-devel mailing list > > > [23][27]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > > > [24][28] > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > > > > > References: > > > > > > [1] mailto:[29]qu...@laptop.org > > > [2] mailto:[30]rrbot...@gmail.com > > > [3] mailto:[31]qu...@laptop.org > > > [4] [32]http://quozl.netrek.org/ > > > [5] mailto:[33]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > > > [6] [34]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > > [7] mailto:[35]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > > > [8] [36]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > > [9] [37]http://www.sugarlabs.org/ > > > [10] mailto:[38]rrbot...@gmail.com > > > [11] mailto:[39]qu...@laptop.org > > > [12] [40]http://quozl.netrek.org/ > > > [13] mailto:[41]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > > > [14] [42]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > > [15] mailto:[43]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > > > [16] [44]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > > [17] [45]http://www.sugarlabs.org/ > > > [18] [46]http://www.sugarlabs.org/ > > > [19] [47]http://quozl.netrek.org/ > > > [20] mailto:[48]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > > > [21] [49]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > > [22] [50]http://www.sugarlabs.org/ > > > [23] mailto:[51]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > > > [24] [52]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sugar-devel mailing list > > > [53]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > > > [54]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > > > -- > > James Cameron > > [55]http://quozl.netrek.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Sugar-devel mailing list > > [56]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > > [57]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > > > -- > > Walter Bender > > Sugar Labs > > [58]http://www.sugarlabs.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sugar-devel mailing list > > [59]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > > [60]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sugar-devel mailing list > > [61]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > > [62]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > > > References: > > > > [1] https://www.gnu.org/software/repo-criteria.html > > [2] mailto:qu...@laptop.org > > [3] http://git.sugarlabs.org/ > > [4] mailto:tony_ander...@usa.net > > [5] mailto:qu...@laptop.org > > [6] mailto:rrbot...@gmail.com > > [7] mailto:qu...@laptop.org > > [8] http://quozl.netrek.org/ > > [9] mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > > [10] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > [11] mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > > [12] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > [13] http://www.sugarlabs.org/ > > [14] mailto:rrbot...@gmail.com > > [15] mailto:qu...@laptop.org > > [16] http://quozl.netrek.org/ > > [17] mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > > [18] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > [19] mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > > [20] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > [21] http://www.sugarlabs.org/ > > [22] http://www.sugarlabs.org/ > > [23] http://quozl.netrek.org/ > > [24] mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > > [25] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > [26] http://www.sugarlabs.org/ > > [27] mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > > [28] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > [29] mailto:qu...@laptop.org > > [30] mailto:rrbot...@gmail.com > > [31] mailto:qu...@laptop.org > > [32] http://quozl.netrek.org/ > > [33] mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > > [34] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > [35] mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > > [36] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > [37] http://www.sugarlabs.org/ > > [38] mailto:rrbot...@gmail.com > > [39] mailto:qu...@laptop.org > > [40] http://quozl.netrek.org/ > > [41] mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > > [42] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > [43] mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > > [44] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > [45] http://www.sugarlabs.org/ > > [46] http://www.sugarlabs.org/ > > [47] http://quozl.netrek.org/ > > [48] mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > > [49] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > [50] http://www.sugarlabs.org/ > > [51] mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > > [52] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > [53] mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > > [54] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > [55] http://quozl.netrek.org/ > > [56] mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > > [57] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > [58] http://www.sugarlabs.org/ > > [59] mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > > [60] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > [61] mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > > [62] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sugar-devel mailing list > > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > > > -- > James Cameron > http://quozl.netrek.org/ > _______________________________________________ > Sugar-devel mailing list > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org <http://www.sugarlabs.org>
_______________________________________________ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel