On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 9:13 PM James Cameron <[1]qu...@laptop.org> wrote:
On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 01:29:56PM -0500, Devin Ulibarri wrote:
> Hi,
>
> This was my experience:
>
> • I came into SugarLabs community at the time that this migration was
> beginning to happen.
> • I started a GH account because that is where I was told the software
was
> being maintained.
> • I have continued to "go with the flow" and work via GH although I
have come
> to understand more of the history and context of this matter.
>
> These are my thoughts and opinions:
>
> • I remember an argument that one reason to move to GH is "that is
where all
> the developers are", but since our migration I have seen so many kids
> (usually GCI) set up new accounts with GH in order to contribute to
SL (and
> to participate in GCI). This makes me think that many people are
willing to
> join our development regardless of whatever tools/services we use,
and
> whatever tool/services we use, if they are not yet setup with them,
they
> are willing to get setup in order to join development.
> • Another argument seems to boil down to "we will be more productive
using GH
> because we need not worry about the hassle of maintaining our own
code
> hosting service". Is there evidence that we are more productive now
than
> before? Not having the opportunity to learn/use the other systems, I
would
> only be guessing.
Not much evidence, it's about the same. Like any tooling, you get
good at it with time. More productive now through the pull request
and issue integration, but less productive through loss of situational
awareness; changes are hidden in GitHub rather than being posted to
sugar-devel@, and new developers fixate on their favourite
repositories.
> • In theory, SL running its own version control, seems to me like it
would be
> a) more fun for someone interested in this kind of work, b) a
learning
> opportunity, and c) gives maximum freedom/flexibility to the ways in
which
> we would like to do development.
[2]git.sugarlabs.org hasn't needed any significant maintenance, and is
probably insecure now because of vulnerabilities that haven't been
patched.
[3]bugs.sugarlabs.org has needed updates, but they have generally worked
well.
The spam issue made it almost unusable.
> • I would rather be using software that is licensed under a FLOSS
license
> than a proprietary license. [4]gnu.org came up with some criteria to
evaluate
> "code hosting services" such as GH: [1][5]https://www.gnu.org/
software/
> repo-criteria.html (which, btw, gets an "F", the lowest grade) The
whole
> reason I am in this in the first place is because I believe the free/
libre
> model of software to be the best for society and education.
Yes, I agree. Setting up an instance of GitLab could be done, but we
would need someone willing to do that and maintain it. Or we could
use GitLab directly as other projects have done.
What does that accomplish at this point? (That being said, I use GitLab for
other projects and it works just fine.)
>
> Devin
>
> On Tue, 2019-01-22 at 07:15 +0200, Tony Anderson wrote:
>
> Walter,
>
> I will try. I am moving on Feb 3 to Palawan. I'll try to get to it
then. My
> principal concern re GSOC is to define projects with manageable scope
-
> many of the past projects ended undelivered.
>
> Tony
>
> On 1/21/19 3:10 PM, Walter Bender wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 3:44 AM James Cameron <[2][6]
qu...@laptop.org>
> wrote:
>
> Fascinating, I never thought the move to GitHub was ever
going to
> achieve all that. It was to enable a shutdown of the
unmaintained
> gitorious instance at [3][7]git.sugarlabs.org. Which still
hasn't
> happened
> because it is still useful, in turn because this community
hasn't
> the
> time to do the necessary leg work to finish the move to
GitHub.
>
> I would be curious what is still on Gitorious that hasn't been
> migrated.
>
> FWIW, my principle motivations for the move were (1) as James
points
> out -- on less piece of infrastructure for us to maintain; and
(2)
> GitHub for better or worse is much more familiar to and likely to
be
> discovered by potential developers. I think GH has been a decent
tool
> which requires minimal effort on our part. Not sure that the
latter
> really amounts to too much.
>
> Re Tony's point about the ownership model, I don't see that
anything we
> are doing suggests we don't want to continue to support
individual
> contributions. I interpreted James's list not as a matter of
ownership
> but rather a surfacing of what is actually happening re
maintenance. In
> some sense, what is being articulated is the equivalent of the
Fructose
> vs Honey nomenclature of the past where the core developers are
saying:
> "These activities will be maintained. Cannot speak for everything
> else."
>
> That said, I think Tony makes a great point re thinking about the
> pedagogical implications of our choices, which have had little if
any
> input from the learning side of the house. Would be great to get
more
> input to help us in regard to what is most valuable to our users
> (whether they know it or not). [4]@Tony Anderson would be great
if you
> could rework you thoughts about Python into a GSoC idea.
>
> regards.
>
> -walter
>
>
> In short, it has nothing to do with the tools, and everything
to do
> with contributors.
>
> I'll continue to focus on the activities I've got on my
list. That
> doesn't mean I won't help with the other activities, but I
won't
> necessarily spend as much time with the others.
>
> On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 09:12:01AM +0200, Tony Anderson
wrote:
> > While it is marvelous to see some actual attention to the
Sugar
> activities,
> > this approach is the direct opposite of the logic behind
the move
> of the
> > activities to gitHub. This is a return to the G1G1 model in
which
> individuals
> > develop, contribute and own activities. There can be no
abandoned
> or orphaned
> > activities in a community support model.
> >
> > It was recognized by Walter and others that there were two
> factors which made
> > that ownership model unworkable. First, changes in Sugar
software
> support such
> > as the move to GTK3 made common changes to all activities
> necessary and,
> > second, that many of the original contributors are no
longer
> involved with
> > Sugar.
> >
> > GitHub was touted as the way in which Sugar Labs as a
community
> would support
> > Sugar and its library of activities. However, in practice
support
> for
> > activities has become increasingly limited to a small
number of
> ones selected
> > for inclusion in the 13.2 series of builds.
> >
> > The Sugar activities library is made available to our users
via
> ASLO.
> > Unfortunately, there are activities with new versions in
gitHub
> which have not
> > been released to ASLO and thus are unknown to our users.
There is
> even
> > confusion over which 'github'. It has to be kept clear that
> developers can use
> > any method they chose. What is controlled is the repository
on
> gitHub. Any
> > changes outside of the Sugar Labs github are invisible
until they
> are submitted
> > as a new version.
> >
> > Educational intent
> >
> > What I would like to see is a return to the founding
philosophy
> of Sugar.
> > Everyone is welcome to contribute. When you get 10 lines of
code
> working,
> > submit your activity. Sugar is designed to provide all the
> software tools
> > needed to develop activities in Sugar - no
cross-development,
> containers, or
> > virtual environments. Instead of requesting new
contributors to
> demonstrate
> > their technical proficiency by putting their name on the XO
icon
> in the Home
> > View, identify some real examples of changes that would
improve
> Sugar. There
> > are plenty available:
> >
> > Fix the icons on 'my settings' so they are visible instead
of
> switching to
> > gnome by clicking on the big toe.
> > When you take a screenshot and switch to the Journal to
give it a
> title, you
> > must use the Frame to return, not the Activity key.
> > The kids love the ability to customize their laptop with a
> background picture.
> > Unfortunately this often makes the icons in the Home View
> invisible.
> > Add Jupyter Notebook as a built-in capability of Sugar
(possibly
> as a service
> > of Browse).
> > Help solve problems with a long list of activities (such as
the
> lack of sound
> > in Block Party).
> > Find a way for Browse to support the css FlexBox.
> >
> > Stop using Pippy as a ceiling to our users learning to
program in
> Python. They
> > can work up to 'Make your own Sugar Activities'. Start
with the
> Hello World
> > activity. Explain GTK and its benefits. PyDebug provides
recipes
> for many
> > common coding situations. Stop hiding the Terminal and Log
> activities - try to
> > encourage them to become favorites. Soon we could see a new
> generation of
> > user-programmers as we did in Uruguay.
> >
> > Along this theme, we should embrace the RPI and its
compatriots
> as a way to
> > make embedded computing tangible. It would not be difficult
to
> connect such a
> > device via the Ad Hoc network so that it could be used to
> transfer a program
> > written on an XO to the device and execute it with the user
> seeing the results
> > on LEDs (e.g. Sense Hat).
> >
> > Tony
> >
> > On 1/20/19 3:48 PM, Walter Bender wrote:
> >
> > I noticed Dimensions fell off the list. I will take
that one
> on as I think
> > it is of real value.
> >
> > -walter
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 8:44 AM James Cameron <[1][5]
> [8]qu...@laptop.org> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks. So the list looks like;
> >
> > # Walter Bender
> >
> > * Music Blocks,
> > * Turtle Blocks JS,
> >
> > # Rahul Bothra
> >
> > * CowBulls,
> > * Flappy,
> > * Cedit,
> > * Polari,
> >
> > # James Cameron
> >
> > * Abacus,
> > * Browse (master),
> > * Browse (fedora 18 - webkit - v157.x),
> > * Calculator,
> > * Chart,
> > * Chat,
> > * Clock,
> > * Develop,
> > * Distance,
> > * Finance,
> > * Find Words,
> > * Fototoon,
> > * Fraction Bounce,
> > * Gears,
> > * GetBooks,
> > * Help,
> > * ImageViewer,
> > * Implode,
> > * Jukebox,
> > * Labyrinth,
> > * Letters,
> > * Log,
> > * Maze,
> > * Measure,
> > * Memorize,
> > * Moon (master),
> > * Moon (fedora 18 - gtk2 - v17.x),
> > * MusicKeyboard (master),
> > * MusicKeyboard (fedora 18 - csound - v8.x),
> > * Paint,
> > * Physics,
> > * Pippy,
> > * Poll,
> > * Portfolio,
> > * Read (master),
> > * Read (fedora 18 - webkit - v118.x),
> > * Record (master),
> > * Record (fedora 18 - gstreamer - v10x),
> > * SimpleEnglishWikipedia,
> > * Speak,
> > * StopWatch,
> > * Story,
> > * Terminal,
> > * TurtleBlocks,
> > * Words,
> > * Write,
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 09:04:50AM -0500, Walter
Bender
> wrote:
> > > I am actively maintaining Music Blocks and Turtle
> Blocks JS.
> > > I just haven't had the bandwidth to do much
beyond that
> of late. That
> > said, I
> > > am happy to kibbutz on any of the activities
which I
> used to
> > maintain.
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 3:11 AM Rahul Bothra <[1]
[2]
> > [6][9]rrbot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > *
> > > I am maintaining CowBulls and Flappy.
> > >
> > > I can take up cedit and Polari
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 12:53 PM James
Cameron <[2]
> [3]
> > [7][10]qu...@laptop.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > Once we had a list of abandoned
activities,
> where the
> > maintainer is
> > > missing in action, not doing testing or
> releasing.
> > >
> > > Now, I propose the inverse; a list of
> activities with a
> > maintainer
> > > testing and releasing. It will be easier
to
> maintain that
> > list.
> > >
> > > For myself, each of the Fructose
activities,
> each of the
> > activities we
> > > ship on OLPC OS. I know Walter is
looking
> after Music
> > Blocks. Lionel
> > > is looking after Sugarizer. Are there
any
> other developers
> > who are
> > > maintainers?
> > >
> > > --
> > > James Cameron
> > > [3][4][8][11]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> > >
_______________________________________________
> > > Sugar-devel mailing list
> > > [4][5][9][12]
Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> > > [5][6][10][13]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/
listinfo/
> sugar-devel
> > >
> > >
_______________________________________________
> > > Sugar-devel mailing list
> > > [6][7][11][14]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> > > [7][8][12][15]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/
listinfo/
> sugar-devel
> > >
> > > --
> > > Walter Bender
> > > Sugar Labs
> > > [8][9][13][16]http://www.sugarlabs.org
> > > [9]
> > >
> > > References:
> > >
> > > [1] mailto:[10][14][17]rrbot...@gmail.com
> > > [2] mailto:[11][15][18]qu...@laptop.org
> > > [3] [12][16][19]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> > > [4] mailto:[13][17][20]
Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> > > [5] [14][18][21]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/
listinfo/
> sugar-devel
> > > [6] mailto:[15][19][22]
Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> > > [7] [16][20][23]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/
listinfo/
> sugar-devel
> > > [8] [17][21][24]http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> > > [9] [18][22][25]http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> >
> > --
> > James Cameron
> > [19][23][26]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sugar-devel mailing list
> > [20][24][27]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [21][25][28]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/
sugar-devel
> >
> > --
> > Walter Bender
> > Sugar Labs
> > [22][26][29]http://www.sugarlabs.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sugar-devel mailing list
> > [23][27][30]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [24][28][31]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/
sugar-devel
> >
> > References:
> >
> > [1] mailto:[29][32]qu...@laptop.org
> > [2] mailto:[30][33]rrbot...@gmail.com
> > [3] mailto:[31][34]qu...@laptop.org
> > [4] [32][35]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> > [5] mailto:[33][36]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [6] [34][37]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [7] mailto:[35][38]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [8] [36][39]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> > [9] [37][40]http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> > [10] mailto:[38][41]rrbot...@gmail.com
> > [11] mailto:[39][42]qu...@laptop.org
> > [12] [40][43]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> > [13] mailto:[41][44]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [14] [42][45]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/
sugar-devel
> > [15] mailto:[43][46]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [16] [44][47]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/
sugar-devel
> > [17] [45][48]http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> > [18] [46][49]http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> > [19] [47][50]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> > [20] mailto:[48][51]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [21] [49][52]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/
sugar-devel
> > [22] [50][53]http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> > [23] mailto:[51][54]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [24] [52][55]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/
sugar-devel
>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sugar-devel mailing list
> > [53][56]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [54][57]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>
> --
> James Cameron
> [55][58]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> _______________________________________________
> Sugar-devel mailing list
> [56][59]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> [57][60]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>
> --
> Walter Bender
> Sugar Labs
> [58][61]http://www.sugarlabs.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sugar-devel mailing list
> [59][62]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> [60][63]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sugar-devel mailing list
> [61][64]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> [62][65]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>
> References:
>
> [1] [66]https://www.gnu.org/software/repo-criteria.html
> [2] mailto:[67]qu...@laptop.org
> [3] [68]http://git.sugarlabs.org/
> [4] mailto:[69]tony_ander...@usa.net
> [5] mailto:[70]qu...@laptop.org
> [6] mailto:[71]rrbot...@gmail.com
> [7] mailto:[72]qu...@laptop.org
> [8] [73]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> [9] mailto:[74]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> [10] [75]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> [11] mailto:[76]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> [12] [77]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> [13] [78]http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> [14] mailto:[79]rrbot...@gmail.com
> [15] mailto:[80]qu...@laptop.org
> [16] [81]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> [17] mailto:[82]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> [18] [83]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> [19] mailto:[84]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> [20] [85]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> [21] [86]http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> [22] [87]http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> [23] [88]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> [24] mailto:[89]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> [25] [90]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> [26] [91]http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> [27] mailto:[92]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> [28] [93]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> [29] mailto:[94]qu...@laptop.org
> [30] mailto:[95]rrbot...@gmail.com
> [31] mailto:[96]qu...@laptop.org
> [32] [97]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> [33] mailto:[98]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> [34] [99]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> [35] mailto:[100]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> [36] [101]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> [37] [102]http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> [38] mailto:[103]rrbot...@gmail.com
> [39] mailto:[104]qu...@laptop.org
> [40] [105]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> [41] mailto:[106]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> [42] [107]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> [43] mailto:[108]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> [44] [109]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> [45] [110]http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> [46] [111]http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> [47] [112]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> [48] mailto:[113]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> [49] [114]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> [50] [115]http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> [51] mailto:[116]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> [52] [117]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> [53] mailto:[118]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> [54] [119]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> [55] [120]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> [56] mailto:[121]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> [57] [122]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> [58] [123]http://www.sugarlabs.org/
> [59] mailto:[124]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> [60] [125]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> [61] mailto:[126]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> [62] [127]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> _______________________________________________
> Sugar-devel mailing list
> [128]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> [129]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
--
James Cameron
[130]http://quozl.netrek.org/
_______________________________________________
Sugar-devel mailing list
[131]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
[132]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
--
Walter Bender
Sugar Labs
[133]http://www.sugarlabs.org
[134]
References:
[1] mailto:qu...@laptop.org
[2] http://git.sugarlabs.org/
[3] http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/
[4] http://gnu.org/
[5] https://www.gnu.org/software/
[6] mailto:qu...@laptop.org
[7] http://git.sugarlabs.org/
[8] mailto:qu...@laptop.org
[9] mailto:rrbot...@gmail.com
[10] mailto:qu...@laptop.org
[11] http://quozl.netrek.org/
[12] mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
[13] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/
[14] mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
[15] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/
[16] http://www.sugarlabs.org/
[17] mailto:rrbot...@gmail.com
[18] mailto:qu...@laptop.org
[19] http://quozl.netrek.org/
[20] mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
[21] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/
[22] mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
[23] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/
[24] http://www.sugarlabs.org/
[25] http://www.sugarlabs.org/
[26] http://quozl.netrek.org/
[27] mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
[28] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
[29] http://www.sugarlabs.org/
[30] mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
[31] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
[32] mailto:qu...@laptop.org
[33] mailto:rrbot...@gmail.com
[34] mailto:qu...@laptop.org
[35] http://quozl.netrek.org/
[36] mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
[37] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
[38] mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
[39] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
[40] http://www.sugarlabs.org/
[41] mailto:rrbot...@gmail.com
[42] mailto:qu...@laptop.org
[43] http://quozl.netrek.org/
[44] mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
[45] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
[46] mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
[47] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
[48] http://www.sugarlabs.org/
[49] http://www.sugarlabs.org/
[50] http://quozl.netrek.org/
[51] mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
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