Aarghh!! Jeromie's got the dreaded Green Slime Disease! LOL! Well Jeromie, you're not the first, not the last either I'm sure.
It's very strange, IMHO, how people fall in love with algae, of all things to fall in love with, but they do it nonetheless, and then after that they can't seem to see straight anymore, love is blind. Anything about oil from algae or biodiesel from algae that isn't altogether "positive" and doesn't help shore up their assumptions and presumptions, such as asking "Where can I buy some?" when the perennial answer is that there isn't any, either gets ignored or attacked, like you just badmouthed the guy's religion or something. This is from the list archives two years ago (I have a whole bunch of them if anyone's interested) (which I'm not): > >>>>> > Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... >maybe... (Jason& Katie) > >>>>> > >>>>>1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic >distillation. (Kirk) > >>>>> > >>>>And/or 100,000 gallons of oil per acre when growing algae. >(Todd Swearingen) > >>>> > >>>Um, where exactly are these acres of algae each producing 100,000 > >>>gallons of oil? Anywhere here on Planet Earth in August 2006? (Keith) > >> > >>Southern Kaliforn-I-eh. By December's end, 2007. Plant is or has >already been > >>contracted upon and should be completed by then. (Todd) > >> > >So in short Todd, as with the last 25 years, there is no biodiesel > >from algae right now on Planet Earth, but hey! it's just around the > >corner (December next year this time). > >But it was not possible to persuade Todd that there was any >difference between here and now on the one hand and perhaps in 18 >months' time on the other. Instead I got berated and told I don't >have any vision and I hate biofuels and so on. And it didn't happen anyway. Also from the list archives two years ago, Bobby Emory, the list-owner at the Oil_from_algae group at Yahoo, told me that after two years they were on the verge of a breakthrough: a professor at the group had just got a centrifuge so he could get the oil out of the algae, and he'd soon be running his truck on 1/2 SVO and 1/2 biodiesel, both from his algae. Also just around the corner, and it also didn't happen, and two years later they still don't have a method. I'm not sure they even have a sample. (Oil_from_algae group, founded: Aug 3, 2004, members: 2146.) Also from the list archives, Wikipedia said two years ago: "The highest yield feedstock for biodiesel is algae, which can produce 250 times the amount of oil per acre as soybeans... Studies using a species of algae with up to 50% oil content have concluded that only 0.3% of the land area of the US could be utilized to produce enough biodiesel to replace all transportation fuel the country currently utilizes." Have a look at what Wikipedia says now - not quite so sure: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel> And so on and on, no end of fantasy/hype/scam to do with oil from algae. But in the real world oil from algae still doesn't exist, and doesn't look like doing so any time soon. Jeromie says: >Assuming the info about >bio-reactors pans out, there is plenty of space to use for algae and >other food stuffs that lend to hydroponics. The information about bioreactors that isn't based on fantasy, hype or scam is that it doesn't pan out. John Benemann calls them "bizarre contraptions". "The use of closed photobioreactors (>$100+/m2) for such applications is totally absurd." And: "There are now scores of venture-financed companies, university research groups, government labs, garage start-ups, GFT licensees, web sites, and on and on claiming that they have, can, may and/or will produce algae biodiesel, at low cost, high productivity, soon, etc. None are based on data, experience, reality or even a correct reading of the literature." The Biopact report agrees: "The claims that algae yield 'enormous' amounts of useable biomass, have never been demonstrated or substantiated. Algae production in photobioreactors has never left the laboratory or pilot phase and no energy balance and greenhouse gas balance analyses exist for biofuels obtained from such systems." Krassen Dimitrov says bioreactors are "probably the most absurd approach that can be undertaken", and he explains why. These three articles (which include links to further information) are reffed at the Journey to Forever website section on Oil from algae: <http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html#alg> Jeromie, I've now referred you to these articles twice (actually three times), but you ignore them, and don't reply. Not "positive" enough for you eh? >While I do not yet have the numbers it looks like it >could very easily be done by a small group. That's what the folks at the Oil_from_algae group think too, there are a couple of thousand of them there, working away at it for four years and they've achieved nothing. Other cases here in the list archives going back seven years, they also achieved nothing. You won't listen to that either, too negative. From my reply to a message about algae two weeks ago: >That's all in the archives, and, sorry, but I'm really tired of >writing about all this "algae will save the world" stuff, dead bored >with it, long ago. It's crap. :-( > >Check next time eh, won't you please? Not only algae, in this case, also hydroponics. You say: >Why not? It works fine. I was referring to areas where soil crops do >not or can not grow. There speaks a man who doesn't know what soil is. We had an argument about hydroponics here a few months ago, with someone else who said he didn't have space and so on. Go and look it up (plenty more about it in the archives too). Incidentally, I've produced plenty of great food in a wide variety of places where it was said plants wouldn't grow, where there wasn't any soil, where there wasn't enough space and so on, including in a tiny 450 sq ft apartment on the 19th floor in the city, producing my own soil from kitchen scraps in a wormbin under the sink, and never any call for hydroponics. Here at the moment it's cold, sub-zero, lots of snow, yet we eat fresh food from the garden every day, no hydroponics, not even a greenhouse. Also "fertiliser", whether from algae or not - the one and only fertiliser that's worth having is good-quality compost, which anyone can make anywhere. That's not just an opinion. Good compost is the only real fertiliser. It fertilises the soil, whereas other so-called fertilisers don't do that (except in a half-assed way perhaps, by accident), and they're not even intended to: they don't build soil fertility, they're just plant nutrients. But once the soil is really fertile all the nutrients are provided as needed, in the perfect form. "Don't feed the plant, feed the soil." Composting is the essential basis of sustainable food production. Plenty about that in the archives also, and at the JtF website. Also Appropriate Technology, which isn't just taking big, centralised, industrialised operations and scaling them down, it's technology that fits. You say: >I am trying, in my way, to think that way. To get there I need to >educate myself. Once again, lots of good info in the list archives and at the Appropriate Technology section of the JtF website. Read Schumacher: <http://journeytoforever.org/at_link.html#small> But, "This place is an excellent place to learn," said Robert, and you replied: "That is why I am here." That's your idea of learning is it Jeromie, to ignore whatever disagrees with your assumptions and presumptions? It doesn't work that way here. The list has rules, which you've been referred to at least twice. The rules say: "If someone questions you, don't just ignore them. You should be prepared to substantiate what you say, or to acknowledge it if you can't." List members are also required to use the list resources, ie the list archives and the JtF website. The List rules are here: <http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg70818.html> Go and do your homework Jeromie. When you've done it you can come back again. As Robert said: > > Bottom line? Oil from algae is a research grant wannabe. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner >On 1/18/09, robert and Benita <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Jeromie Reeves wrote: >> > > <snip> > > >> >Does that mean no one has ever made it work out side the lab? If that >> >is true, why is it true? What is the hurdle, growing, harvesting, >> >processing? Ive read info saying algae oil is chemically the same as >> >light sweet crude. Anyone have more sources showing this to be, or not >> >be, true? >> > >> I can't answer why it doesn't work, but I CAN say that the whole >> concept of a technical fix to energy gluttony is fundamentally the wrong >> approach. Deal with waste and inefficiency, deal with the issues on a >> local level, and the problems become much smaller and easier to manage. > >I think we are going in circles about the same issues. I agree we need >to make things as >efficient as possible. I do not think we can get 'there' in one step, >or even two. I also agree >things need to be done on a more local scale. > >> >> >Do I take it that, if it can not be done small scale, its not a real >> >solution? Is there something >> >wrong with larger operations or projects that need more space then the >> >average person has? >> >Would it be a non real solution if it took a small community or group >> >to run a facility? What size of area or labor required is a real >> >solution? >> > >> > >> That depends on how you define "solution." Are we trying to replace >> the same level of consumption we're currently engaged in with a >> different fuel source? > >Yes and no, depending on "we". I am looking at this because it looks >promising but >has had so little delivery that it got me curious. Would it not be >better to replace fossil fuels >with something that could be more carbon neutral? > >> "Solutions" of that kind require massive, >> centralized operations. > >Of what kind? While I do not yet have the numbers it looks like it >could very easily be done by a small group. It would take a fairly >large area altogether. Lets assume that in my idea here, everyone is >responsible for growing how ever much algae is required to fuel them >selves. If you need fuel for 1 car or 5, its on your head to make it >happen. I know of some people of in Canada that built a 1960's style >oil cracking tower. They feed it used oil and pull off fuel and >heating oils. It seams to me that algae would be a better stock, and >help fill any shortages in supply. The two ideas together seam >promising. > >> We've already been down that path and it's >> clearly a dead end. Anything that requires a large, centralized >> operation invites the same players into the game who have so skillfully >> manipulated the world into the situation we find ourselves in right >> now. Would replacing Exxon with a new bio-algae corporation really >> solve anything? > >We are talking different scales of large and centralized here. The >ideas above would have >everyone growing their own amount of fuel they need (plus extra to run >the facility). Feed >that stock to a oil cracking tower to produce various fuels The stack >pretty much fuels it self >once running. > >> >> It also puts us into the mind set of "that solution is still ten >> years away . . ." Meanwhile, we do NOTHING, and the problem grows worse >> and worse. > >It can put some people in that mind set. I am always looking for way >to increase my >fuel economy, reduce my winter heating requirements, etc for my self. >I help friends >and family do the same. I do what I can to reduce my fuel use but >there is not a lot of >room to do so. I need to find better sources and more efficient uses of it. > >> >> We have technology right now that might be utilized to improve >> efficiency, significantly reduce consumption and move our world into a >> different economic paradigm. What we lack is will, not capability. > >Can you point out some of these? I do not know if you mean in general, >specifically to >transportation, or to food. Is this on a singular scale or larger >implementation? > >> >> >I am confused a bit. Is not the point of biodiesel that it is grown >> >instead of fossil fuel? That in the growing it makes it a more carbon >> >neutral fuel source? I know that if we just whole sale replace food > > >crops with fuel crops, we would be idiots. >> > >> >> >> If that's the point, it's the wrong point. The fuel isn't the >> issue. > >I thought that the fossil fuel is limited and that it will, at some >point, run out. Like with >all things the rarer it is, the more it costs and all things derived from it. > >Did anyone notice the massive push for eco-friendly toys this last >Christmas? It had very little >to do with `big corps` wanting to be better. The price for plastics >about tripled. > >>If you really want to solve the problem, you have to change the >> fundamentals underlying what has taken us here. Thinking SMALL instead >> of thinking large will do that. Thinking local, instead of continental >> or national, will do that. > >I am trying, in my way, to think that way. To get there I need to >educate myself. > >> >> What do you need transportation for? > >Lets use me as a example =) > >I drive 2500 miles a month, often more, mostly for work. I combine as >much work in any one town as I can each week. Its hard to do when you >have places to be that are up to 100 miles >in 3 directions from your base office. Most of the time it works outs >and there is more then >just one apointment, but that doesnt help when the length of an >apointment can easily run >to long to allow more then two or three per day. > >> How can you accomplish those >> tasks without using fuel at all? > >In the middle of winter, I can not do any of it with out using fuel. >In the warmer months I use a bicycle for as much as I can, but I can >not haul the tools needed for most jobs. For the non work related >travel it is impossible to anything with out fuel. I have two children >that 99% of the time will be with me. Walking 1.4 miles to the store >with a two year old is not a option. > >Heating the house is much the same deal. We have a wood stove (hope to >get the pellet stove moved here) and electric heat. I was thinking >about using bamboo for the stove but it is not >a good idea to burn it due to the It does give a decent heat >(comparable to wood stocks, by weight) and is very renewable, as well >as having access to some land to grow it on. Its low density is a >issue. The main problem there is that the land also grows hay and most >bamboos are to aggressive. If the project got out of control it could >destroy a already productive space. I have also looked at long term >storage of wind generated electricity. > >> Get thinking along THOSE lines and >> solutions will become clear. > >I am trying. I do not see a way to do that. > >> >> >> > Assuming the info about >> >bio-reactors pans out, there is plenty of space to use for algae and > > >other food stuffs that lend to hydroponics. >> >> Why bother with hydroponics? > >Why not? It works fine. I was referring to areas where soil crops do >not or can not grow. >I have done a number of very small hydroponic gardenettes (just doing >some herbs). >I see no reason to throw it out, just another tool in the box. > >> Most of our food plants have quite >> happily grown in soil for longer than human history extends. I can grow >> more food on a suburban lot than my family can eat, without any input >> other than water, barn litter, compost and human sweat. (And I started >> this on a lot covered in clay muck that wouldn't grow ANYTHING other >> than Keith's beloved "deep rooting herbs"--plants which the rest of the >> world refers to as weeds--but that lot now supports a healthy garden >> that doesn't need chemical fertilizers OR pesticides.) > >I am not familiar with these "weed herbs", have some links? I am >hoping to have a >garden at the new house but the soil has been laid over with about >5inch of gravel. >I have not decided if I will remove it first or just bring in some >pond filler. > >> Food production >> isn't the problem. Industrial food production IS, because it destroys >> soil. Energy is not a problem, either. Waste, inefficiency and human >> greed IS. > >Does all industrial food production destroy land? Human greed is a >hard one, I have >no answers for it. Waste and inefficiency is easy to solve, make it >profitable to do so >(ok, poor joke, but its also true) > >> > > Bottom line? Oil from algae is a research grant wannabe. > > >> robert luis rabello >> "The Edge of Justice" >> "The Long Journey" >> New Adventure for Your Mind >> http://www.newadventure.ca >> >> Ranger Supercharger Project Page > > http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
