Hi Q,

Thanks for your feedback. I will review RFC9799 and incorporate more of
that format.

I had always intended to include a concise and informative security
implications section as well as an intro and abstract. I will flush out
these sections and update the draft (also posting it to datatracker). I
never meant for security implications to be contained in mailing list
posts, I just wanted to get the core idea of the draft out for feedback
first.

If there is time in the ACME session for Madrid, I would be happy to give a
short presentation. If not I think it is fine to work on this in the list.

Thanks again for looking this over.

Best,
Henry


On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 3:27 AM Q Misell <[email protected]>
wrote:

> Hi Henry,
>
> First of all, thanks for the work on this draft so far.
>
> Whilst clearly at an early draft stage, its pretty concise and clear in
> what it achieves. I'd be supportive of progressing this work in the WG.
> I think it needs a bit more work before its ready for a call for adoption.
> If you'd like some guidance on the general layout of a document defining a
> new ACME challenge (and not to flatter myself too much here) it might be
> worth looking at the recently published RFC9799.
>
> In general, having unique security implications is not in and of itself a
> problem. What a draft needs however is a concise, but thorough, explanation
> of what they are and how they matter for operators.
> An operator won't go and read the mailing list, they'll want it in the
> draft of what to do / not do for various security properties.
>
> Finally, not to pre-empt the chairs, but we usually have a some time left
> at the end of the ACME working group, so this should fit nicely into our
> any other business.
>
> Q
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> Ar Maw, 15 Gorff 2025 am 04:31 Henry Birge-Lee <birgelee=
> [email protected]> ysgrifennodd:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I am an interested party at the CA Browser Forum (
>> https://henrybirgelee.com/ ), and I have worked on some other PKI
>> standards. Lately the CA Browser Forum has been in the process of drafting
>> a ballot (SC-088) that eliminates the need for ephemeral challenge tokens
>> in the DNS change and allows a CA to sign a certificate solely based on the
>> presence of a persistent DNS record (i.e., a record that does not need to
>> change between each renewal) (
>> https://github.com/slghtr-says/servercert/pull/3 ).
>>
>> I know this is likely too last minute for discussion at Madrid (I had
>> originally planned to wait until the ballot was further along before
>> bringing this up), but a conversation in the CA/Browser Forum Validation
>> Subcommittee came up as to how exactly the new proposed method would be
>> implemented in ACME. In the interest of having a concrete proposal, I
>> drafted an Internet Draft that provides a tentative outline for what a new
>> ACME method could look like to support persistent validation. The draft is
>> at:
>>
>> https://birgelee.github.io/birgelee-acme-dns-persist-01/birgelee-acme-dns-persist-00/draft-birgelee-acme-dns-persist.html
>>
>>
>> The Abstract, Intro, and Security Considerations are still pending, but
>> Sections 3 and 4 contain the substance of the proposed method. I would be
>> interested to know if any working group members have thoughts on this
>> approach. If there is interest I will fill in the missing sections and make
>> this a more mature draft. In general I think providing an ACME validation
>> method for this early on will allow ACME to support persistent validation
>> immediately should SC-088 pass.
>>
>> Also, while I understand there are unique security implications of this
>> when compared to the traditional token-based dns-01 validation method, I
>> would prefer not to focus the conversation on that, and CAs that do not
>> wish to use this method can disable it. For reference, I did present a more
>> in depth security analysis on the CA/Browser Forum list for those who are
>> interested (
>> https://groups.google.com/a/groups.cabforum.org/g/servercert-wg/c/4tATbCpQRpM/m/8mH-SX87BAAJ
>> ).
>>
>> Best,
>> Henry
>>
>>
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