The basic beta shell is available. Go to Microsoft.com/downloads and search on "monad" for the various downloads available, and pick the one appropriate for your system. ;-)
-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rich Milburn Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 9:23 AM To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Scripting/WMI/MONAD - was FSMO role transfer I was about to mention that we missed that - I think we were looking at the roll-ups and chocolate fountains and I had no clue what it was :) So since I missed the presentation... is there a place where one can see MONAD now? i.e. is it just coming with E12, or is it to be in Vista? Or is it in Vista now? (I would check but my copy is not on the Net and needs to be activated and after 45 minutes on 3 different phone numbers at MS yesterday I got yet a 4th for MSDN tech support. I think I will reload and save myself some time!!) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Rich Milburn MCSE, Microsoft MVP - Directory Services Sr Network Analyst, Field Platform Development Applebee's International, Inc. 4551 W. 107th St Overland Park, KS 66207 913-967-2819 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "I love the smell of red herrings in the morning" - anonymous -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of joe Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 8:01 PM To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Scripting/WMI/MONAD - was FSMO role transfer I missed the whole MONAD (WHOA for short) presentation this year. I was outside yapping with Dean and Laura and Sean Deuby and Rich Milburn and a few others. The previous year they had showed how they were going to treat AD like a file system and allow you to CD through it and ditto for exchange and mailboxes and the registry and just about anything else that could be considered hierarchical but it sounds like a lot of that got pulled. I am really hoping the Exchange team a good job with the Exchange MONAD stuff. The WMI implementations[1] pretty much suck and it isn't even WMI's fault. I have fears though, again based on the chatter on EHLO. They seem to think that the MONAD way is the fat way in that if I want to find out the last logon time (or some other singular piece of info) on a mailbox I have to pull back all of the mailbox's info. This is great for a one mailbox thing, but if I need that piece of data for 200,000 mailboxes that is just a ton of wasted network bandwidth and time. The only way that makes sense is if you are writing the MONAD pieces to support GUI which displays that info and always needs all of it to give you an ESM like display that we have now. [1] I found yet another crappy thing in the Exchange WMI implementation this last year that I am still talking to MS about but have now been escalated to a manager who can probably tell me with more force that it is by design. If he does, I will simply publish the issue so everyone will be aware of it and do that for now on as I am tired of being told by the Exchange group that it is by design and then years later they end up fixing it because enough people have started to complain. I would rather get everyone on board up front early complaining if that is the only thing that is going to make Exch Dev listen. -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael B. Smith Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 8:36 PM To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Scripting/WMI/MONAD - was FSMO role transfer I gotta tell ya -- I just started vbscript-ing a few years ago (with great help from joe and Alain here) -- C# with .NET 2.0 just rocks (whether fat or not -- need to use those 64 bits for SOMETHING). Visual C# 2005 makes it a breeze...I'm looking forward to the managed classes for Exchange &etc. using monad as an iterative/RAD development environment. Interop is a PITA. With the C# 3.0 language enhancements, it can look an AWFUL lot like a monad script...(remember the "easy glide path" that Jeff Snover talked about at the Summit?) -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darren Mar-Elia Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 8:24 PM To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Scripting/WMI/MONAD - was FSMO role transfer I concur. "Whoa" is a good description. If you are a programmer or mondo scripter, Monad will rock. I pity the poor batch file folks though. I mean, does anyone think that writing something that looks like a cross between korn shell, perl and .Net is intuitive? What it does provide, for those that take the time and have the skill set, is a much richer environment for creating command-line tools that those who don't want to learn how to write scripts can use with much greater effect. I predict class warfare between the script and script-nots :-). -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Susan Bradley, CPA aka Ebitz - SBS Rocks [MVP] Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 5:14 PM To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org Subject: Re: [ActiveDir] Scripting/WMI/MONAD - was FSMO role transfer ... so in the demo I saw the guy was calculating the number of days between then and 12/31/2005. As I was watching him do all these command lines... I'm thinkin' in my beancounter side of my brain... you know.. my cell phone has a calculator and I could have figured that number out in half that time.... :-) What I'm looking forward to it for is that Exchange will have it and all the lovely people that write wizards and tools and scripts and buttons can use the power of it. But yeah... it's a bit ....whoa...... joe wrote: > > "Question of the day: If .Net = .Fat then does cmdlet = piglet?" > > ROFL! > Other than that, I agree, it is the replacement for a shell that is > showing its age. On the positive side you can do some cool serialized > piping (aka piping objects) instead of just piping text. Very > powerful. On the negative side, it is pretty intense all around. It is > going to scare some people. Plus there are concerns about how fat and > slow it might be. I had a nice conversation with the Exchange Dev > folks over at EHLO for instance concerning the "MONAD way". > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Bernard, > Aric > *Sent:* Thursday, December 01, 2005 1:08 PM > *To:* ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org > *Subject:* RE: [ActiveDir] Scripting/WMI/MONAD - was FSMO role > transfer > > Speaking from my own personal discoveries.... > > In a nutshell, MONAD is supposed to be a new command line shell to > replace the relatively stagnant CMD shell. As I understand it, MONAD > offers the following capabilities above and beyond what CMD provides: > > * Ability to leverage system objects at the command line (interactive) > as well as through a script. > * Ability to leverage nearly anything exposed via the .Net Framework 2.0. > * Enhanced security framework which by default only allows interactive > input at the command line and blocks the running of scripts - allows > provides intermediate levels for code signing of scripts from certain > sources. > > * Provide support for WSH scripts > * Provide an experience *similar* to that available in the most widely > used *nix shells (Korn, Born, C) > > So let me now caveat the above by saying I have very little experience > working with the MONAD shell (aka MSH). At the very least I can say > that MONAD is more useful to me than WSH/VBScript since I am more > comfortable with C# and as I can execute nearly every command (for > testing purposes) from the command line as opposed to in the body of a > script. > > To date, one of my favorite cmdlets is the "get-member" which > enumerates the properties, methods, and other relevant information > that you can use or squeeze out of a given object. > > So am I sold on it? Not exactly (it is still a little too much like > programming) but I do think it is much better than what we have today > from a shell perspective. > > Question of the day: If .Net = .Fat then does cmdlet = piglet? > > Aric > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Creamer, Mark > Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 6:55 AM > To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org > Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Scripting/WMI/MONAD - was FSMO role transfer > > Just curious - what's MONAD's goal supposed to be, other than having > an acronym that sounds like a > > military facility? > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of joe > > Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 9:15 AM > > To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org > > Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Scripting/WMI/MONAD - was FSMO role transfer > > You know that the scriptomatic 2 HTA will create Perl script that does > WMI > > right.... > > I am not a huge fan of WMI but there are times in the scripting world > if you > > want to stick to pure script it is in the only way to do what you want > and I > > will use it if I don't have time (or ability as in the case of mailbox > > reconnects or getting info on what DCs are being used by DSACCESS) to > write > > native code to do what I need. > > If you have perl in your pocket there really is no need to learn > vbscript > > other than enough to look at examples which doesn't take much learning. > > MONAD might be worth learning but I am still not sure about it. They > have > > scaled it back so much from what they were initially talking about > when I > > thought, that is seriously cool. I certainly don't feel that it is > going to > > turn a bunch of people into scripters by just being released. The > model will > > confuse the crap out of most people as it is even more involved than > > vbscript which people don't want to learn because it is too much like > > programming. I have made some recommendations to folks at MS all the > way up > > to Iain McDonald (great guy) that all of the MS management tools > should have > > a switch to output MONAD code so that someone could do something once > in the > > GUI and get a MONAD script generated automatically that does the same > thing. > > Then they can tweak that to do other things. It is the only way I > visualize > > that MONAD will really take off like people seem to think it will, at > least > > over and above perl and vbscript. In other words, I don't see anything > there > > that will take someone who wasn't a scripter and wasn't thinking about > being > > a scripter to become one. You will have the same bunch of yahoos > writing > > scripts but they will be doing it in MONAD instead of vbscript or VB. > It is > > sort of like .NET in general, it certainly didn't produce a whoosh of > a > > zillion new coders. Some of the folks that were already writing in > other > > languages adopted it, some, older school, steadfastly avoided it. > Personally > > I might consider .NET for a web site, other than that, not really. If > it > > becomes ubiquitous and MS actually starts coding low level system and > kernel > > stuff in it I might start looking at it. As it stands right now I feel > the > > same way that many of my friends do one of which has renamed .NET to > .FAT > > which I think is pretty funny. He even told me if I started writing my > tools > > in it he would refuse to use them. I expect there are others. Maybe MS > needs > > to rename it because I know when I hear .NET I think fat and lazy. I > don't > > know why, I just do. I have seen enough posts in the newsgroups of > issues > > and limitations and don't feel the benefits outweigh them. > > > joe > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Cliffe > > Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 5:42 PM > > To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org > > Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] FSMO role transfer > > Well, I just think that most of the people in the command line and/or > > scripting "camp" like to encourage others to learn to use them simply > > because they feel it's to your benefit. I don't think they really like > to > > promote the "you're not a real admin..." sentiment. Or at least I hope > not > > :-) Right now in my org, I'm in the minority using the CLI. I just > prefer > > working that way and don't knock my colleagues for their methods, but > rather > > show them other ways to get at the info they need. > > CLI and scripting fosters your knowledge of what's happening in the > > background, helps you learn the product and truly is a great way to > automate > > tasks! (if not THE way) > > For the longest time I've been meaning to learn VBscript, but haven't > > devoted enough time to go for it yet. From what I've seen so far, it > scares > > me :-P but I still intend to give it a shot. I've been getting by with > > Perl and CMD shell for now (I came from a KSH/*nix background). > > Have you seen some of the sample command shell scripts Dean has put > > together? Or the stuff that Alain Lissoir can do with WMI? Wow! > > Anyway, this topic has drifted further now, but I'm going to resist > the urge > > to change the subject line. The last time I did that, we had a little > side > > bit just on the fact that the subject line changed! :-D > > -DaveC > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rocky Habeeb > > Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 5:18 PM > > To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org > > Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] FSMO role transfer > > Susan, > > "THANK YOU > > !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > !!!! > > !!!!!!!!!!!" > > There are a >LOT< of people on this list that do not believe that real > > Admins use the GUI. Some believe that you're not a real Admin if you > do. I > > do. I have to. I can't allocate time to learn scripting right now > because > > I'm overworked as is. I'll just leave it at that. > > RH > > ______________________________________________ > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Susan Bradley, > CPA > > aka Ebitz - SBS Rocks [MVP] > > Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 4:09 PM > > To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org > > Subject: Re: [ActiveDir] FSMO role transfer > > > <stupid question alert> > > If the task is that trivial > > If the benefit is so great > > Why isn't it part of the AD snap ins as a one button task? > > <sincerely, who needs scripting when you can ask for a gui/wizard or > button > > instead> > > David Adner wrote: > > > I'm not debating the effort it takes to make the change. I'm saying > > I > > don't > > > see the point in devoting whatever amount of effort it takes for > > > something that's going to provide benefit only, IMO, an extremely > > rare > > > case. And if that case happened, the corrective action is also a > > > trivial process. And again, I'm not saying I don't see your point; I > > just don't agree with it. > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bahta > > >> Nathaniel V Contractor NASIC/SCNA > > >> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 12:32 PM > > >> To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org > > >> Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] FSMO role transfer > > >> > > >> That process is trivial in itself. It does not take much to > >> transfer > > >> the roles before you conduct maintenance on a server. Why not do it? > > >> It will save you cleaning up metadata after you seize a role of a > > >> failed operations master. Sounds like a stitch in nine saves time > > >> concept to me. I do not intend on taking every proactive measure > > >> either, but when it comes to the small and quickly implemented > > >> measures that could save plenty of time, I try to utilize all of > >> them > > >> available. > > >> > > >> Is that agreeable? > > >> > > >> Nathaniel Vincent Bahta > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David > >> Adner > > >> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 1:24 PM > > >> To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org > > >> Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] FSMO role transfer > > >> > > >> Any proper maintenance plan has a backout plan and a recovery plan, > > >> so I am preparing for the possibility of an unexpected problem. If > > >> I'm pulled into a dark room because something goes wrong then I > > >> should feel confident I'll leave that room with my hide mostly > > >> intact; it may be slightly singed, but I can live with that. If > > >> management isn't the reasonable type then that's a different issue. > > >> > > >> If your philosophy is to take every proactive measure ahead of time > > >> possible, then that's fine. I just don't see the point with regards > > >> to FSMO roles when the recovery action is a relatively trivial > > >> process. This is obviously a matter of personal preference so I'm > > >> not trying to convince others to change. I just found the concept > > >> unusual so I thought I'd share. > > >> > > >> > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > >>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 10:16 AM > > >>> To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org > > >>> Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] FSMO role transfer > > >>> > > >>> I would rather, as stated earlier, assess the risk and then act > > >>> appropriately. The original poster never defined 'maintenance' in > > >>> detail. > > >>> > > >>> The original post did state that the box would be down for ~2 > >>> hours > > >>> for maintenance. This is clearly more than a patch and a > > >>> > > >> reboot. We've > > >> > > >>> been over that scenario and concluded that it carries a lesser risk. > > >>> > > >>> As joe said, if the maintenance all goes badly wrong, do > > >>> > > >> you want to > > >> > > >>> be pulled into a dark room and questioned as to why you did not > > >>> prepare for that eventuality? > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> neil > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > >>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Susan > > >>> Bradley, CPA aka Ebitz - SBS Rocks [MVP] > > >>> Sent: 30 November 2005 15:29 > > >>> To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org > > >>> Subject: Re: [ActiveDir] FSMO role transfer > > >>> > > >>> Okay define maintenance please? > > >>> > > >>> Patching? > > >>> Service Pack? > > >>> Applying QFEs? > > >>> Performance tuning? > > >>> What? > > >>> > > >>> Is there a level of maintenance that would cause you to move > >>> FSMO's > > >>> and not? > > >>> > > >>> Like for example, if I'm patching, I've tested the patch, I'm > > >>> reasonably expecting a favorable outcome otherwise I wouldn't be > > >>> deploying, I have a backup. > > >>> > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> I think we've missed the essence of the original post :) > > >>>> > > >>> The DCs are > > >>> > > >>>> not just being rebooted, they are being 'maintained' and > > >>>> > > >>> will be down > > >>> > > >>>> for ~ 2 hours. That means to me, that either a s/w or h/w > > >>>> > > >> change is > > >> > > >>>> going to occur which could go horribly wrong. Faced with this > > >>>> situation, I would definitely transfer the roles. > > >>>> If the DC were merely being rebooted and nothing else is > > >>>> > > >>> scheduled to > > >>> > > >>>> occur, I would not transfer roles. > > >>>> The above 2 scenarios are very different - if one were to > > >>>> > > >> perform a > > >> > > >>>> risk analysis the actions taken to mitigate those risks would be > > >>>> suitably different. > > >>>> neil > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> -- > > >> - > > >> > > >>>> -- > > >>>> *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >>>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of > > >>>> > > >>> *David Adner > > >>> > > >>>> *Sent:* 29 November 2005 23:26 > > >>>> *To:* ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org > > >>>> *Subject:* RE: [ActiveDir] FSMO role transfer > > >>>> > > >>>> I would only agree if you told me your DC's regularly > > >>>> > > >> fail to come > > >> > > >>>> back after a reboot. And if you did tell me that I'd have to say > > >>>> you're doing something wrong. > > >>>> I suppose I don't consider rebooting a DC to be quite the > > >>>> > > >> dangerous > > >> > > >>>> act as others do. To what degree is this taken? If it holds > > >>>> > > >>> a standard > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> Primary zone do you transfer that role, too? If it's the > > >>>> > > >>> PDCE of the > > >>> > > >>>> forest root domain and you transfer the role, do you also > > >>>> > > >>> reconfigure > > >>> > > >>>> the new PDCE to manually synchronize time from an authoritative > > >>>> source? I mean, if we're going to work under the > > >>>> > > >> assumption that a > > >> > > >>>> reboot is a regularly catastrophic causing event then > > >>>> > > >> it's probably > > >> > > >>>> time to switch OS's. > > >>>> Is it possible something unexpectedly horrible can happen > > >>>> > > >>> as part of a > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> reboot? Sure. But it better be the exception. And with > > >>>> > > >>> regards to FSMO > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> roles, which, barring some specific technical requirement they be > > >>>> readily available, the temporary outage of them is typically a > > >>>> transparent event and shouldn't require added > > >>>> > > >>> administrative overhead > > >>> > > >>>> in transferring them back and forth. Accepting that a > > >>>> > > >> catastrophic > > >> > > >>>> event is an exception, then you follow your documented and tested > > >>>> activities to recover from that exception; ie: you seize > > >>>> > > >> the roles, > > >> > > >>>> restore from backup, etc. > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> -------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>> ---------- > > >>> > > >>>> *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >>>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On > > >>>> > > >> Behalf Of *Rich > > >> > > >>>> Milburn > > >>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 29, 2005 4:26 PM > > >>>> *To:* ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org > > >>>> *Subject:* RE: [ActiveDir] FSMO role transfer > > >>>> > > >>>> Yeah but having "seize the FSMOs instead of moving > > >>>> > > >> them" as your > > >> > > >>>> fallback plan is like making sure you have a current backup in > > >>>> case "yanking the power cord instead of Start > Shutdown > > > >>>> Restart" causes file system corruption J > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> //------------------------------------------------------------ > > >>> ---------- > > >>> -/// > > >>> > > >>>> ///Rich Milburn/// > > >>>> ///MCSE, Microsoft MVP - Directory Services/// > > >>>> Sr Network Analyst, Field Platform Development > > >>>> Applebee's International, Inc.// > > >>>> //4551 W. 107th St// > > >>>> //Overland Park//, KS 66207// > > >>>> //913-967-2819// > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> //------------------------------------------------------------ > > >>> ---------- > > >>> // > > >>> > > >>>> ///"I love the smell of red herrings in the morning" - > > >>>> > > >>> anonymous// > > >>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> -- > > >> - > > >> > > >>>> -- > > >>>> > > >>>> *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >>>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of > > >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 29, 2005 11:56 AM > > >>>> *To:* ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org > > >>>> *Subject:* Re: [ActiveDir] FSMO role transfer > > >>>> > > >>>> If something went wrong you could still seize the FSMO > > >>>> > > >>> roles as an > > >>> > > >>>> option rather than doing a transfer. Of course the > > >>>> > > >>> procedures for > > >>> > > >>>> all of these for the 5 FSMOs should be documented just in case > > >>>> needed.. > > >>>> > > >>>> Chuck > > >>>> > > >>>> / > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> -------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>> ---------- > > >>> > > >>>> *-------APPLEBEE'S INTERNATIONAL, INC. CONFIDENTIALITY > > >>>> > > >>> NOTICE-------* > > >>> > > >>>> PRIVILEGED / CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION may be contained in this > > >>>> message or any attachments. This information is strictly > > >>>> confidential and may be subject to attorney-client > > >>>> > > >>> privilege. This > > >>> > > >>>> message is intended only for the use of the named > > >>>> > > >> addressee. If > > >> > > >>>> you are not the intended recipient of this message, > > >>>> > > >> unauthorized > > >> > > >>>> forwarding, printing, copying, distribution, or using such > > >>>> information is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. 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