On 15/8/10 3:58 PM, "William Conger" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Michael;
> I defined my use of ambiguity in the poetic sense by which one interpretation
> through metaphor reveals (enables us to construct) another and so on, and that
> these can be contradictory.  Because these "layers" of metaphor are like
> strata, 
> they can be interpreted "at the same time" as in saying, let's imagine, while
> the rabbit comes to mind in this context, the duck comes to mind in another.
> But in fact the image of the rabbit duck always has the signs of both rabbit
> and duck, and many other referents as well, if not in actual marks, in evoking
> associations.
> 
> I have said that meaninglessness is an ideal, unattainable, since any
> perception 
> or thought is embedded in an idea or subject.  But it is desirable, in my
> view, 
> to attempt to go as far as one can in stripping meaning from perception, not
> only through reduction but also through multiplication. When we try to
> perceive 
> something as it is, without any sense of its use or value (or name-definition)
> then we are able to perceive it aesthetically.  In saying this I am imitating
> Panofsky. It is a way to contemplate form instead of subject and aside from
> content.
> 
> I don't like my name being ridiculed as "conjurer" for two reasons.  One is
> that 
> it parodies my mental efforts, as if I dream up my ideas from mists and
> without 
> reasoning; the other is that it suggests an alliterative J sound in my name
> with 
> in the word "conjurer".  A retort is we don't say "longer" as "lonjer" so why
> imply that my name is pronounced Conjer instead of Conger?  I say this with a
> smile  since I know that you are a Scholastic and thus not responsible for
> your 
> pedantry, usually supported by contradictory wit and humor.
> 
> wc 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Michael Brady <[email protected]>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Sat, August 14, 2010 9:48:59 PM
> Subject: Re: Validity of Cheerskep's Argument
> 
> William wrote:
> 
>> Listers know how strongly I've advocated ambiguity, in the poetic
> metaphorical
>> sense of "multiple meanings" as relevant to art expression.  In other words,
>> nothing kills art faster than  "one-liner" content.  In fact, I have long
>> asserted that the more complex the content, the more associative meanings
>> evoked, the more seeming contradictions they put into play, the better.   Of
>> course, this sort of ambiguity and meaninglessness can be very clear and
>> powerful.
> 
> William the Conjurer uses "meaningless" in a meaningful way, meaning
> "ambiguous." A nice sleight of terms. Ambiguity is not meaninglessness; it's a
> lack of singularity, it's poly-"the"-ism (that's for CSKP), it's
> openendedness, it's an ambi-pamby word. <g>
> 
> Some ambiguities, such as the Necker Cube, the Duck-Rabbit, or Rubin's Vase
> (the face-vase figure-ground illusion), provoke at least two equally probably
> interpretations, but both interpretations cannot be held simultaneously
> without contradiction. There are a few pairs of identical words (in English)
> that are exactly contradictory, e.g., "cleave." (Actually these two words
> aren't syntactically identical: "cleave," to split, is transitive and takes a
> direct object directly, whereas "cleave," to join, is immediately followed by
> a prepositional phrase introduced by "to.")
> 
> "More associative meanings" doesn't necessarily imply "more seeming
> contradictions," merely doubt about interpretation.
> 
> Saul's comment, "Art and language are best when they are imprecise," barely
> rises above a bumper-sticker aphorism but it touches on a fundamental aspect
> of representation, namely, that the representation is less than the referent.
> It reduces the referent in many ways and by many degrees of magnitude. In
> fact, a more precise version of Saul's aphorism would be "Art and language are
> always imprecise."
> 
> The moment when the maker or viewer notices the differences between the image
> or word on one side and its referent on the other is the moment when
> reinterpretation, realigning of the parts of the comparison begins. And next
> comes ambiguity, doubt, and eventually the moment of explicit fiction, when
> non-existent referents are just 'made up' by the speaker or artist to test
> what the new creation (horse + horn on forehead) proposes.
> 
> 
> | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
> Michael Brady
> 
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