Re: [AFMUG] DC+ Fiber

Tue, 25 Sep 2018 11:41:11 -0700

Ken, you can't just come back and dethrone me as the eternal pessimist just because you were on vacation since 2016.
As far as performance on a noisy channel, I don't think anybody should assume anything.  With 50 eNB in service, we've inflicted interference on ourselves a few times.  In my experience when we've done that the customers felt a lot of pain.  Low data rates, disconnects, etc.  It wasn't always reflected in the reported SNR either.  Sometimes the symptom was just disconnects and low data rates so it wasn't always obvious.  I don't know that any other equipment would have done better, but nor do I have reason to think there was any magic that made LTE better than other equipment in that regard.  If someone has a reference to controlled tests then I could be convinced that it's better, but if it's better it's only incrementally better. 


LTE does two things that other technologies can't.  One is it will give 
you decent performance through foliage.  Obviously the attenuation is 
still there, and in 3.65ghz it's going to be about 15db per 100m of 
foliage regardless of whether it's LTE or something else.   If you put a 
couple of trees in front of most equipment then you'll have disconnects, 
jitter, and packet loss.  It may "work" to one degree or another, but 
that connection will always be a problem child.  LTE with a couple of 
trees in the way will work _just fine_.   That's a useful enough quality 
that we have well over a thousand customers on it, and most of them were 
not going to get line of sight.



The other thing LTE can do is hang on to a garbage signal.  It'll 
/function/ at some number of kilobits per second all the way down to low 
negative SNR's.  That's not a useful trait for WISP's, but it's a thing 
LTE does and it must be useful for /somebody/.



Wimax kind of sucked regardless of whether you had line of sight. LTE 
with line of sight performs about as well anything else.  If you *had* 
LOS obviously you wouldn't burden yourself with LTE, but my point is 
that it's definitely better than Wimax.  When you get a good signal it 
works good and you don't have to say "no" to the potential customer just 
because of a few trees.



All that said, I still hate it.  Hate. Hate. Hate.  LTE has higher 
hardware cost.  LTE brings complexity that I don't want.  Complexity = 
labor cost.  Everybody's documentation is bad.  Everybody's support is 
bad.  For some reason everybody selling LTE pisses on SNMP.  They are 
all committed to TR-69.  I hate TR-69.  SNMP is trivially easy.  I get 
that TR-69 is lighter on the network, and I appreciate that there's a 
certain convenience in the devices seeking out the server rather than 
the server having to be primed with data on all the devices.  However it 
always requires one monolithic server, and generally you pay a lot of 
money for this server, and it's always a piece of shit.  If I wanted to 
change passwords, or collect one signal level value from 1000 devices 
with SNMP I can write a script for that in 15 minutes.  If I want to do 
it with TR-69 I have to do it through this obtuse server, and it always 
ends up being a pain in the ass.  I've also been thwarted multiple times 
by bugs in the TR-69 implementation of CPE.





Anyway, welcome back Ken.  You have an uncommon clarity of thought which 
has been missed.


-Adam




On 9/24/2018 11:42 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:



But WiMax was supposed to be great with interference because of the 
magical “HARQ”.



HARQ my ass.  So you started with around 100 ms latency, and with HARQ 
retries, it could go to double or triple that.  But they tried to 
convince us that latency didn’t matter, it was jitter that mattered, 
and WiMax had nice constant latency.  NOT!  So I had a system I 
couldn’t sell to gamers and couldn’t sell with our VoIP service.


*From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown
*Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 9:32 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] DC+ Fiber

80 Mbps at 80 miles?

*From:*Jason McKemie

*Sent:*Monday, September 24, 2018 6:21 PM

*To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] DC+ Fiber


LTE does a whole lot better than WiMax in the face of interference, 
for whatever that is worth (not much).



On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 6:59 PM Ken Hohhof <af...@kwisp.com 
<mailto:af...@kwisp.com>> wrote:


    I’m not sure a 5 GHz LTE product makes sense, unless you’re
    talking carrier aggregation and LAA. Otherwise I question the
    “magic” of “LTE modulation”, once you try to use it in dirty
    spectrum.  Oooooh, 256QAM.  Like we haven’t been doing that for
    years.  I put it in the same category as “3.65 GHz goes through
    trees”.  Only if the noise floor is really low, and then it’s not
    the “S” part of SNR, it’s the “N” part that’s magic.

    Maybe I’m missing something, but I’m not wanting to spend big
    bucks (and a big power budget) to use LTE in 5 GHz.  Maybe if
    there’s some killer antenna technology, but I think that’s what
    Medusa does too.  Not that it is any better on price or power
    consumption.

    *From:*AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com
    <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of *Ryan Ray
    *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 6:44 PM
    *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com
    <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] DC+ Fiber

    This would be better on the price front then if that is possible.

    On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 3:22 PM, Jon Langeler
    <jon-ispli...@michwave.net <mailto:jon-ispli...@michwave.net>> wrote:

        Baicells just announced 5Ghz LTE, might be others.

        The brains of the Cambium 3G Medusa is apparently supposed to
        be capable of LTE modulation is what I thought I heard at the
        roadshow. It would be a future software option.

        Jon Langeler

        Michwave Technologies, Inc.


        On Sep 24, 2018, at 6:12 PM, <ch...@wbmfg.com
        <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> <ch...@wbmfg.com
        <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:

            I really have not been paying any attention to this, but
            is there an unlicensed LTE radio?

            Meaning an unlicensed radio that uses LTE modulation methods.

            *From:*Adam Moffett

            *Sent:*Monday, September 24, 2018 4:09 PM

            *To:*af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>

            *Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] DC+ Fiber

            What's nice LTE?  Baicells?
            A Telrad eNB might be "only" $7k, but you'll be north of
            $9k by the time you figure out all the licenses you need.

            I'd be curious about a 3.65 Medusa, but I wonder if I can
            set TDD parameters that will line up with our existing LTE
            frames.
            -Adam

            On 9/24/2018 3:45 PM, Ryan Ray wrote:

                It's gonna be on display in Vegas. I'm not even in USA
                so the CBRS stuff isn't really affecting us right now,
                but when you start looking at 9k per ap you could get
                some nice LTE instead.

                It's just surprising being 2k more than the 5ghz
                pmp450m. Especially with the cost of the SM being
                higher as well, but maybe the 450b 3.65 will solve
                that? Time will tell I guess.

                On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 12:41 PM, Ken Hohhof
                <af...@kwisp.com <mailto:af...@kwisp.com>> wrote:

                    That’s not surprising, if it includes the MU-MIMO
                    activation key.  I guess nutty is in the eye of
                    the beholder.

                    But if it’s really available “soon”, I’m a little
                    surprised, I was afraid they would wait to see
                    what the FCC did with the PAL auction rules.  Also
                    whether the industry decided that CBRS is only for
                    LTE devices, even for fixed.

                    And I thought Ubiquiti had trademarked the term SOON™.

                    Anyway, I think something like LTE or cnMedusa is
                    going to be necessary for CBRS, especially with
                    the cost of paying a SAS vendor for each location
                    and the cost of acquiring PAL licenses, and then
                    only getting 10 MHz channels.  You don’t get much
                    capacity from 10 MHz of spectrum unless you have
                    all the fancy tricks like beam steering and
                    bidirectional MU-MIMO, and of course at least 256QAM.

                    *From:*AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com
                    <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of
                    *Ryan Ray
                    *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 1:31 PM
                    *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
                    <af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>

                    *Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] DC+ Fiber

                    It's available very soon, but the pricing is
                    nutty. $9k usd....

                    On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 6:47 AM, Ken Hohhof
                    <af...@kwisp.com <mailto:af...@kwisp.com>> wrote:

                        Wait, 3.65 Medusa is available now?  I thought
                        it was some undetermined date in the future. 
                        Or did I misunderstand you?

                        *From:*AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com
                        <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf
                        Of *Dave
                        *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 8:09 AM
                        *To:* af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>


                        *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] DC+ Fiber

                        We have a few towers with TOWER TOP control
                        and management.
                        The ones I designed are 24v and 48v.
                        We have only CMM4 boxes with the Planet
                        switches which I use LC the hybrid cable comes
                        from Besttronics.
                        We have a #12 stranded pair in each of these.
                        I have to have transtector Part#1101-626 at
                        top and bottom to meet our
                        surge protection compliance.
                        Since those sites have been installed I have
                        had zero issues.

                        Seems that 3.65Medusa has made us change to a
                        more direct connection so my box design will
                        have to be modified.
                        All of the Orange tag cables will have to be
                        removed since the packet flux will not support
                        the new power requirements

                        Here is one design we have plans to deploy
                        next week.

                        <image003.jpg>

                        On 09/22/2018 05:05 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:

                            Are most people using SC or LC at the top
                            of the tower? I want to use LC most
                            everywhere I can, but I understand the
                            advantage in SC on a tower where it's
                            easier to work with larger things.

                            What's the next bigger enclosure? Could
                            you put something like this on a swinging
                            panel where I could run a trunk cable into
                            it and then plug individual patch cables
                            going to each radio? Maybe easier on you
                            if you just make it work with something
                            else on the market, like these panels from
                            FiberStore where someone can just get
                            whatever panel they want (LC\SC\whatever)?

                            https://www.fs.com/products/68962.html

                            The goal is to emulate one of these:
                            
https://www.raycap.com/wp-content/uploads/DC6-48-60-0-8C-EV_320-1318.pdf
                            
https://www.raycap.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/DC6-48-60-18-8C-EV_320-1315-1.pdf

                            Power and fiber in one box, transition
                            from trunk to the ground to the radios.

                            I'm sure they'd sell well.



                            -----
                            Mike Hammett
                            Intelligent Computing Solutions
                            <http://www.ics-il.com/>
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<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>

                            
------------------------------------------------------------------------

                            *From: *"Chuck McCown" mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com
                            *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"
                            mailto:af@af.afmug.com
                            *Sent: *Saturday, September 22, 2018
                            4:51:48 PM
                            *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] DC+ Fiber

                            Can put in a patch panel.  Just a
                            mechanical thing to solve.

                            But patch panels have cutouts for
                            couplers. And different couplers need
                            different size holes in the part that
                            holds them in.

                            So if someone could tell me which coupler
                            will always be needed, then this is easy.

                            Otherwise I have to offer a variety of
                            coupler options and that multiplies my
                            part numbers etc etc.

                            Happy to do that but not if I only sell 1
                            per month.

                            *From:*Mike Hammett

                            *Sent:*Saturday, September 22, 2018 10:46 AM

                            *To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group

                            *Subject:*[AFMUG] DC+ Fiber

                            When do we see a 48v one of these? Also,
                            more density?

                            
http://store.packetflux.com/sitemonitor-4-channel-relay-output/

                            When do we see one of these with a fiber
                            patch panel and slack storage?

                            
https://www.mccowntech.com/product/8-circuit-outdoor-dc-power-line-surge-suppressor-protector-copy/



                            -----
                            Mike Hammett
                            Intelligent Computing Solutions
                            <http://www.ics-il.com/>
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<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>

                            
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