https://www.quantumspatial.com/
On Friday, March 27, 2020, Steve Jones <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote: > reviving this one > > where all would a guy go if he wanted to get pricing on fresh data > collection? ie hiring one of these drone/blimp/plane firms? > > On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 12:57 PM Chuck Hogg <ch...@allpointsbroadband.com> > wrote: > >> Nice, I was curious if any Common people would be on here. Welcome to >> the farm, where pigs fly. >> >> Best Regards, Chuck Hogg | *SVP/Director of Acquisitions* >> *ALL POINTS* *BROADBAND *| *Live Connected.* >> mobile 502.435.6649 >> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 6:11 PM Dan Spitler <d...@common.net> wrote: >> >>> Just to chime in here: Nearmap is doing yearly, higher-res >>> photogrammetry captures of major (sub)urban areas across the US. You can >>> purchase pre-rendered surface models from which you can do all sorts of fun >>> things with. >>> Also, Google's SAS program has a network planner included which allows >>> you to get elevation profiles *with* clutter using the same data as seen on >>> Google Earth. My only problem with it is it only does low-rez RF >>> propagation (no simple viewesheds) and the data is of unknown vintage. >>> >>> On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 1:19 PM Chuck Hogg <ch...@allpointsbroadband.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Here's 2 examples of 2m vs 30m data as well for Google Earth. If the >>>> list serv strips them, let me know. >>>> >>>> Look at the shadows created by buildings and trees as far as coverage >>>> goes in the 2M data. >>>> >>>> These are random locations in Louisville. The City of Louisville >>>> released their data for free. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 4:14 PM Chuck Hogg < >>>> ch...@allpointsbroadband.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Also, check your states/counties/cities. Some states have had >>>>> initiatives to map this data. The forestry fire service also maps this >>>>> data. There are also point clouds created with this data. Ky for example >>>>> has this data from 2013 to 2018. The 2018 data is still being compiled. >>>>> It's also free. Virginia had whole portions of the state done in 2017. >>>>> >>>>> One good resource is: >>>>> https://www.usgs.gov/core-science-systems/ngp/3dep >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 4:11 PM Chuck Hogg < >>>>> ch...@allpointsbroadband.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> The LIDAR data processing for a 2M resolution of an OMNI on the >>>>>> platform I'm using takes about 45-75 seconds. The same 30M resolution is >>>>>> typically a done in a second. These are done using 10km radiuses >>>>>> currently, but I'm increasing it to 20km. As you know this will cause it >>>>>> to be significantly heavier on the processing. A geotiff file for one >>>>>> access point using 2M data at 10km radius is about 18MB. The same >>>>>> GeoTIFF >>>>>> for 30M data is under 1MB. 30M is 900Meters squared. 2M is 4M squared. >>>>>> Roughly 225x more datapoints in 2M. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best Regards, Chuck Hogg | *SVP/Director of Acquisitions* >>>>>> *ALL POINTS* *BROADBAND *| *Live Connected.* >>>>>> mobile 502.435.6649 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 3:45 PM Brian Webster < >>>>>> i...@wirelessmapping.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I do not know the answer to that but I suspect that they are just >>>>>>> using the images from multiple angles. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank You, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brian Webster >>>>>>> >>>>>>> www.wirelessmapping.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> www.Broadband-Mapping.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Adam >>>>>>> Moffett >>>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 18, 2019 3:23 PM >>>>>>> *To:* af@af.afmug.com >>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] clutter data and drones >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Good question >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 12/18/2019 3:05 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Does Google actually have LIDAR or are they just running the images >>>>>>> that they collect from multiple angles through an algorithm to guess at >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> obstructions? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- >>>>>>> Mike Hammett >>>>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> >>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>>>>>> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> >>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> >>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> >>>>>>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> >>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> >>>>>>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> >>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> >>>>>>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> >>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> >>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *From: *"Adam Moffett" <dmmoff...@gmail.com> <dmmoff...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> *To: *af@af.afmug.com >>>>>>> *Sent: *Wednesday, December 18, 2019 1:53:10 PM >>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] clutter data and drones >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Looks like no 3D building/trees in the profile. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 12/18/2019 1:57 PM, Brian Webster wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Adam, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you draw a line between the AP and the address point and then >>>>>>> right click to show elevation profile, does it look like it’s including >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> 3D building/tree as part of the profile or just terrain. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We are lucky in NY that the state has mapped every 911 address to >>>>>>> the rooftop and they make it available for download. Not everyone has >>>>>>> data >>>>>>> that accurate. 911 address collection quality varies county by county. >>>>>>> Not >>>>>>> every county has put it in the public domain for download either. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank You, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brian Webster >>>>>>> >>>>>>> www.wirelessmapping.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> www.Broadband-Mapping.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com <af-boun...@af.afmug.com>] >>>>>>> *On Behalf Of *Adam Moffett >>>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 18, 2019 1:09 PM >>>>>>> *To:* af@af.afmug.com >>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] clutter data and drones >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> NY State makes E911 address points available online. Imported a >>>>>>> subset of that, turned on the "3D Buildings" layer in Google Earth, and >>>>>>> then adjust the view until I'm looking from where the hypothetical AP >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> be. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I can click on each point to get the street address, but I'm not >>>>>>> keen to sit here and do that one point at a time. Seems like a job >>>>>>> for a >>>>>>> computer. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 12/18/2019 12:33 PM, Steve Jones wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thats really cool, how did you get that? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 11:13 AM Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is the USGS LIDAR/clutter data available in a format that you could >>>>>>> open in Manifold GIS? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> See the Google Earth screenshot below. Wouldn't it be nice to just >>>>>>> have one more command to select only the address points that are >>>>>>> "visible" >>>>>>> based on the 3D clutter? I'm betting I could make that work in >>>>>>> Manifold. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Not an RF projection of any sort, just filter out the address points >>>>>>> that can't be "seen" due to 3D clutter. It's an imperfect approach for >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> lot of reasons, but it would give me hundreds of almost definite LOS >>>>>>> households that I could sell 100mbps to if I wanted to. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Or Brian, if that's something you could do as a service that would >>>>>>> be something I'd be willing to talk about offlist. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 12/18/2019 11:40 AM, Brian Webster wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don’t have that level of detail and haven’t personally done any of >>>>>>> the processing, I just know that on the Google Fiber project they would >>>>>>> drive a bunch of streets in a city and then the dedicated server would >>>>>>> run >>>>>>> for two or three days to create a usable point cloud data set. Then it >>>>>>> had >>>>>>> to be hosted on a separate server due to space requirements. This >>>>>>> process >>>>>>> was done by a company who specialized in these LIDAR projects so they >>>>>>> had >>>>>>> the tools to do it the most efficient way. I would guess the overall >>>>>>> project file sizes were a couple of terabytes. If you think about it, >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> have to have a data record for everything you can see/reflect from >>>>>>> because >>>>>>> that data is used to recreate that object in 3D, so the latitude, >>>>>>> longitude >>>>>>> and elevation needs to be built for something as simple as a road sign, >>>>>>> all >>>>>>> the points on the post and all the points to be able to recreate the >>>>>>> sign >>>>>>> and on both sides. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank You, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brian Webster >>>>>>> >>>>>>> www.wirelessmapping.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> www.Broadband-Mapping.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com <af-boun...@af.afmug.com>] >>>>>>> *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones >>>>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 17, 2019 4:49 PM >>>>>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] clutter data and drones >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Can either of you describe the data size, and processing time? say >>>>>>> clutter per uban square unit (mile kilometers, etc) at this res takes x >>>>>>> time to collect with this particular method, it takes roughly y time to >>>>>>> process it, and it requires z storage. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Generalization is all im looking for here like , current >>>>>>> drone/blimp, sensor tied to an eagle can only collect an x meter wide >>>>>>> path >>>>>>> per sweep so it would take y number of sweeps to cover a square km, the >>>>>>> average speed of collection is x meters per minute and it would take so >>>>>>> many fuel stops to gain that coverage >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> assuming you have that detail of information >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 3:29 PM Brian Webster < >>>>>>> i...@wirelessmapping.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes Chuck the post processing time it takes to create the 3 >>>>>>> dimensional/axis point cloud data (points with a lat, long and height >>>>>>> value) is massive. When I worked the Google Fiber projects in >>>>>>> California we >>>>>>> in cities like San Jose and the post processing took days on dedicated >>>>>>> high >>>>>>> end servers for the limited geographic areas we needed. If you have >>>>>>> clutter >>>>>>> data at 2 meter resolution you get a much better result of treating the >>>>>>> clutter as a solid object than if doing that with 30 meter resolution >>>>>>> data. >>>>>>> The 2 meter resolution will have such high accuracy of being able to see >>>>>>> each building and any single tree that might block a path. In the case >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> 30 meter data, the clutter gets classified as only one type. So in many >>>>>>> non-dense urban areas, the 30 meter square gets classified as low >>>>>>> density >>>>>>> urban, but then you don’t get any information for a tree lined street or >>>>>>> even the rural plains areas where it’s all open crop land with the >>>>>>> exception of the single tree line planted to block wind on typical rural >>>>>>> farm homes. So averaging the clutter classes becomes more necessary and >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> treating it all like solid objects. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When I worked for EarthLink and we were designing the outdoor Wi-Fi >>>>>>> network, we did have the 2 meter resolution tree and building data in >>>>>>> Philadelphia. It made a big difference but as I recall we also paid >>>>>>> $250,000 just for that single city area clutter at that resolution. As >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> state there have been business models made on creating this type of data >>>>>>> for years. It’s not cheap to create, so the cost justification vs. the >>>>>>> added resolution accuracy of your intended project is a key >>>>>>> consideration. >>>>>>> I do know that NYC has LIDAR data for the whole city in the public >>>>>>> domain, >>>>>>> worked nice on the WISP propagations I did for the NY State broadband >>>>>>> map >>>>>>> when they had me produce the WISP coverage areas. In the end it’s all >>>>>>> about >>>>>>> who is paying to have that high resolution data created. If the >>>>>>> government >>>>>>> eventually pays for it, then it should be released in the public domain >>>>>>> because the public funded it (just like their existing map data is >>>>>>> today). >>>>>>> It’s still going to take a lot of computing horsepower to digest and use >>>>>>> that data in any RF propagation tool however. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank You, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brian Webster >>>>>>> >>>>>>> www.wirelessmapping.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> www.Broadband-Mapping.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Chuck >>>>>>> Hogg >>>>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 17, 2019 12:46 PM >>>>>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] clutter data and drones >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I thought I would chime in here a bit. Not disputing Brian or >>>>>>> anyone else here, as many accurate statements have been made. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I've done some LIDAR propagations at 2M vs 30M DEM data. I found in >>>>>>> areas around mountains and hills (consistent in KY/VA markets) it is >>>>>>> very >>>>>>> helpful to treat "clutter" as obstructions. I have reviewed areas where >>>>>>> 30M DEM data shows 400 homes serviced, and 2M LIDAR data shows 17. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Going back to the original question, I know 2 people here in KY that >>>>>>> fly drones for Engineering, Architectural, and Construction firms and I >>>>>>> talked to some of the people at Common Networks, who use some version of >>>>>>> Drone Photogrammetry to create their own datasets. In the construction >>>>>>> industry it is being used to track building things like bridges, >>>>>>> tunnels, >>>>>>> commercial buildings, etc. These photogrammetry drone setups are >>>>>>> $2-25k. >>>>>>> The Drone Lidar setups are $5-300k and require much larger drones. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Also, it takes a long time to take this data and compile it. I know >>>>>>> they take anywhere from 3-18 months to do this in KY depending on how >>>>>>> large >>>>>>> the area and how high of a resolution it is. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Here's a pretty good video and some tech in the beginning of one in >>>>>>> use showing 5cm accuracy: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8piSF40StQ&feature=emb_title >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just an FYI, the opportunity to create a business out of this has >>>>>>> been going on for many years. They have used planes, blimps, and >>>>>>> balloons >>>>>>> for years. I could see a move to drones. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best Regards, *Chuck Hogg* | *SVP/Director of Acquisitions* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *ALL POINTS* *BROADBAND *| *Live Connected.* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 12:14 PM Steve Jones < >>>>>>> thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brian, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Assuming the software allows you to input your own clutter data, at >>>>>>> high resolution, what impact on processing the models is there as the >>>>>>> clutter data gets higher in resolution? Are we talking massive >>>>>>> percentage? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think im maybe overestimating clutter datas usefulness. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would first need to have accurate topo data that knows what is >>>>>>> ground, and what is treetop/building roof. And that data really would >>>>>>> need >>>>>>> to be at the same, or better resolution than my clutter data. (if my >>>>>>> topo >>>>>>> data is 30 meter, and my clutter data is 3 meter, my output will be best >>>>>>> guess on top of the 30 meter average that may or may not have already >>>>>>> included the clutter, depending on when the sampling was done?) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Am I misunderstanding clutter data? I had thought it was plotted >>>>>>> elevations of clutter, but is it more just regionated averages? if that >>>>>>> question makes any sense >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> When the topo data was/is collected, are there mechanisms in play to >>>>>>> differentiate terrain from structure/clutter? Say chicago was collected, >>>>>>> would it show ground elevation or would it show the rooftop elevations >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> the average ground elevation? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Back to the original query, assuming a guy had a drone with the >>>>>>> capability of carrying the equipment and the battery life to not have to >>>>>>> constantly recharge. Would a person be able to collect both topo and >>>>>>> clutter data, that can differentiate it, and at a fine detail. What >>>>>>> kind of >>>>>>> data size is that information? I know that the data available to radio >>>>>>> mobile in the day could be downloaded over dialup given some time, so it >>>>>>> didnt seem to be overly massive. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 9:07 AM Brian Webster < >>>>>>> i...@wirelessmapping.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Clutter data in the public domain is mostly 30 meter square >>>>>>> resolution. Cameron has talked about a lot of the issues with the data. >>>>>>> Radio Mobile (and TowerCoverage since it runs on that) has the ability >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> tune the cluster classifications a bit. I worked with Roger in >>>>>>> implementing >>>>>>> that clutter model. It is not actually part of the Longley Rice >>>>>>> propagation >>>>>>> model, what he did at my begging was allow a user to manually edit the >>>>>>> height and density for each clutter class and then the tool assigns a >>>>>>> loss >>>>>>> factor per pixel/30 meter square of clutter and then subtracts the sum >>>>>>> total of the clutter loss for the ray being propagated. This is not >>>>>>> perfect >>>>>>> but when the cell companies use their expensive propagation tools, they >>>>>>> tune their clutter models for each market by drive testing a known >>>>>>> transmitter with a roving unit and run those drive test results against >>>>>>> what the software thinks the signals should be. In this process they >>>>>>> compare the know clutter classes that were propagated through and it >>>>>>> self-tweaks the loss factors is applies for each clutter class. In radio >>>>>>> mobile you do basically the same thing but without automation. To get it >>>>>>> right you have to go out and measure a lot of your real world signal >>>>>>> levels >>>>>>> and manually run propagations until the two match (minus your fade >>>>>>> margins >>>>>>> built in to your plots). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This works well if you spend the time, the bigger issue is that the >>>>>>> 30 meter square is assigned just one clutter class code. In general it >>>>>>> works well for free stuff. The reality of knowing about specific tree >>>>>>> lines >>>>>>> alongside a house or in urban environments with tree lined streets or in >>>>>>> back years, those individual trees to not get factored in to your >>>>>>> propagation, just the building losses if that building clutter is set >>>>>>> to a >>>>>>> height to show as an obstruction(in WISP cases most are not if you are >>>>>>> mounting your antenna on the roof for average suburban clutter). The >>>>>>> answer >>>>>>> to this is to have higher resolution clutter. The terrain data used is >>>>>>> 10 >>>>>>> meter resolution, meaning there have been hard data points gathered at >>>>>>> least every 10 meters horizontally and interpolated. Some terrain data >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> available at 3 meters but that is not as widely available. So the issue >>>>>>> remains how do you get better resolution clutter data. LIDAR can indeed >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> used and the best versions are actually driven on the streets and not >>>>>>> flown >>>>>>> from the air. As Cameron mentioned however that data still only gives >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> the height/size/area where the clutter is. It does not tell you what >>>>>>> type >>>>>>> of class that it is and/or what type of RF losses each pixel of that >>>>>>> data >>>>>>> should be assigned, plus you are typically only getting the clutter data >>>>>>> from the street facing side. Think of the old movie sets and only seeing >>>>>>> the building face. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Another method of increasing clutter accuracy is to resample the >>>>>>> data from 30 meter pixels down to smaller sized pixels. This has limited >>>>>>> benefit. Mostly this can allow you to take things like tree clutter and >>>>>>> trim out the highway areas and or possibly cut out the trees with >>>>>>> specific >>>>>>> building data footprints and assign a different clutter class by pixel. >>>>>>> This is very tedious to do on a large scale and you first have to have >>>>>>> other good data sources to trim or reclassify these smaller pixels >>>>>>> properly >>>>>>> to a new clutter class. While all of this gives you a better physical >>>>>>> map >>>>>>> of what and where you have clutter down to a more realistic reality, you >>>>>>> would then have to go back and manually recalibrate the tuning because >>>>>>> tuning over larger pixels is an averaging process using the single >>>>>>> clutter >>>>>>> class. As you might guess all of this takes time and money. At some >>>>>>> point >>>>>>> there will likely be some cool efforts done by others where we can >>>>>>> integrate this. For instance Microsoft released building outline GIS >>>>>>> data >>>>>>> for the whole country that they machine learned from aerial imagery. >>>>>>> That >>>>>>> could be used over resampled data although if the buildings had tree >>>>>>> cover >>>>>>> they didn’t get captured in the first place because they are not >>>>>>> visible in >>>>>>> the images. There are other open source projects for things like >>>>>>> spectrum >>>>>>> sensing on a Raspberry Pi and software defined radio that if you put >>>>>>> enough >>>>>>> sensors out there they might help tune the clutter loss models. >>>>>>> https://electrosense.org/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is probably way more than you wanted to read about clutter data >>>>>>> and RF propagations but hey I am a geek like that. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank You, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brian Webster >>>>>>> >>>>>>> www.wirelessmapping.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> www.Broadband-Mapping.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *castarritt >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, December 05, 2019 4:47 PM >>>>>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group >>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] clutter data and drones >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Google maps uses some of the 1M resolution LIDAR data. Check out >>>>>>> Austin, TX (maybe most other metro areas as well?) in google, enable >>>>>>> "globe >>>>>>> view", and then turn on 3D. Now use left ctrl and drag with the mouse >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> move your view angle. This is the data cnHeat and the Google CBRS SAS >>>>>>> solution supposedly use. OT: I wonder if any of the usual suspects are >>>>>>> making PC flight simulators that use this data. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 3:30 PM Steve Jones < >>>>>>> thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The issue with publicly available clutter data is it seems old, poor >>>>>>> resolution or inaccurate. If heat is using the same data as >>>>>>> linkplanner, >>>>>>> its definitely bunk. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 3:26 PM Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Have you looked at CnHeat? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We're about to do some testing with it here. They mentioned USGS >>>>>>> LIDAR as one of the data sources. Presumably that's blended with other >>>>>>> imaging somehow. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 12/5/2019 4:02 PM, Cameron Crum wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> LIDAR is not clutter specific, it just can't penetrate clutter (it's >>>>>>> light) so clutter ends up looking like terrain. The benefit is that you >>>>>>> get >>>>>>> an elevation, the drawback is that you don't know the type of clutter or >>>>>>> how high it is above the terrain. I suppose if you compare the lidar >>>>>>> data >>>>>>> against a terrain only DEM, you could extract the clutter height. Here >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> the thing... some propagation does penetrate vegetation to some degree, >>>>>>> so >>>>>>> if you are talking about frequencies that do, then lidar is not >>>>>>> necessarily >>>>>>> a good thing to use as everything ends up looking like an obstruction. >>>>>>> You >>>>>>> also need a model that can actually account for clutter (vegetation) >>>>>>> density when talking about how much it will affect the signal. Obviously >>>>>>> leaf types and things like that can have other effects, but I'm unaware >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> any model that goes to that depth. While some account for clutter >>>>>>> heights >>>>>>> to use diffraction losses and some lump-sum type losses for a given >>>>>>> clutter >>>>>>> category, none of the models that are in use in the wisp industry >>>>>>> account >>>>>>> for clutter density and there are only a few in existence that do. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You can get high res clutter data (types) from thermal satellite >>>>>>> imaging from one of the geospatial data companies like Terrapin >>>>>>> Geographic, >>>>>>> or SPOT. It is surprisingly accurate and is what real prop tools like >>>>>>> Planet use. The downside is no elevations, so you still have user input >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> that. Unless you are willing to shell out big bucks, don't bother >>>>>>> looking. >>>>>>> We are talking about 10's of thousands for a modestly sized area. The >>>>>>> cellcos can afford it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 10:41 AM Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Interesting. And unfortunately I don't know any more about LIDAR >>>>>>> than a Google Search does. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 12/5/2019 11:27 AM, Steve Jones wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just the SAS administrators will be competitive product. So garbage >>>>>>> in garbage out will really apply. Basic SAS functionality is uniform, >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> feature sets will differ. More accurate propagation modeling every night >>>>>>> will be something we benefit from and Im thinking that will be one of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> things they compete against each other with. They didnt say that >>>>>>> specifically, but the second iteration of SAS will be more bigger, >>>>>>> potentially even bigly in its scope. I really thought it was all going >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> be modeled after cellco, with a bend toward cellcos overtaking CBRS with >>>>>>> shady handshakes and involuntary roaming agreements, but it appears >>>>>>> winnforum isnt just government lackeys, the people involved have >>>>>>> actually >>>>>>> put gear in the air or at least listen to those that have. I think >>>>>>> cantgetright may have been a co-chair of a committee somewhere >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Where would a guy who doesnt know what LIDAR is go to find out more >>>>>>> about that clutter data? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 10:12 AM Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think the USGS is making 3D clutter maps with LIDAR. CnHeat is >>>>>>> supposed to use that wherever it's available. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I haven't heard how that relates to the SAS though. Is this >>>>>>> something you learned from the "450 Lady"? Care to share? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 12/5/2019 10:25 AM, Steve Jones wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> first question is if a guy collects accurate clutter data, can he >>>>>>> use it in any of the propagation tools we use? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> second, and this is where you braniacs come in, what equipment would >>>>>>> it take on a drone to collect this data? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> IIRC drone limit without FAA is something like 300 feet. would that >>>>>>> even be tall enough to sweep a wide enough path that it wouldnt take 300 >>>>>>> battery charges to do a square mile? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I envision a course plotted drone trip that will fly over with a >>>>>>> pilot car trailing to maintain the required operator LOS. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you think about how many miles youve put on verifying link paths >>>>>>> over the years, its not really a prohibitive thing. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> CBRS and SAS is whats driving this query, but general propagation >>>>>>> anomalies creates quite a pickle that better accuracy/resolution clutter >>>>>>> accuracy would alleviate. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Please tell me there is already a consortium thats built out a >>>>>>> clutter standard with a clutter submission mechanism, that would >>>>>>> completely >>>>>>> tickle me silly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I also dont know the impact to the propagation back ends as you >>>>>>> increase the resolution of the data. Im assuming the SAS administrators >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> running something a little beefier than Radio Mobile. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I could see this being a lucrative niche market, if there were a way >>>>>>> around the drone operator licensing requirements (though that cost is >>>>>>> pretty minimal). Basically a company builds up a small fleet of drones, >>>>>>> outfitted with the appropriate gear. You create an account, input your >>>>>>> coverage area (or any region) that you want high resolution data for. >>>>>>> they >>>>>>> reprogram the course and ship it to you (after collecting the upfront >>>>>>> payment, deposit, and massive liability release) they provide you with a >>>>>>> road course to drive while the drone does its thing, anticipate points >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> retrieval for recharge, etc. when its all done, you stick it in the box >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> ship it back. would be cooler if the whole thing was transported back >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> forth by amazon drones. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If I had a guarantee that the collected data would be useful to the >>>>>>> company, into radio mobile, link planner, towercoverage, and SAS >>>>>>> administrators, its something i could see a fair price tag of 3-10k on >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> for our coverage area, and no farmers blasted it out of the sky. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> we use clutter data now thats antiquated so it would come with the >>>>>>> understanding that photosynthesis and bulldozers impact accuracy from >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> minute its collected. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> maybe this data is already out there and i dont know? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> AF mailing list >>>>>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>>>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>> AF mailing list >>>> AF@af.afmug.com >>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>>> >>> -- >>> AF mailing list >>> AF@af.afmug.com >>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >>> >> -- >> AF mailing list >> AF@af.afmug.com >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> >
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