I do this all the time with my libertarian friends. I always preface a
conversation talking about how libertarians are just statists in a
pretty dress. Sometimes ill throw in a taxation is not theft for good
measure. Then no matter where it goes I point out their ultimate goal
is to be governed.
On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 1:18 PM <ch...@wbmfg.com
<mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:
I love arguing with my kids. I will pick any position or even
swap sides mid argument. Their spouses have finally figured out
that I just love the debate. But the main thing I get out of it
is exposure the new ideas. They get a dose of reality. One
daughter in law refused to believe that one could exist on
$1000/month. They one of my sons informed her that he lived on
less than that for several years. Same daughter in law thought I
should be paying all my employees a minimum wage of $15. I told
her that most of my employees do make that or more, but entry
level jobs would not exist if they had to do so. Then she got on
me for paying so low the employees could not afford healthcare. I
informed her that we do provide health care. She stopped talking
for a few minutes that afternoon...
*From:* Brian Webster
*Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2020 12:10 PM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT - political
I didn’t assume that you were Adam. I pose questions or viewpoints
for the wider audience. Too often I am seeing polarizing views all
over from people who have never stopped to quietly consider the
other side or multiple sides to an issue. Put the shoe on the
other foot has been lost as a concept. The instant gratification
society has lost their ability to have a little pause and consider
mentality (part of getting old I guess). Whenever I have a chance
to politely discuss situations with others and pose some other
possibilities in a situation, most people will be courteous and
say I guess I had never considered that point, or I was not aware
of that fact. When I also listen to their perspective on the same
topic it gives me other points to think about that I may not have
known or thought about. I am not one to have any illusions that I
can change a person’s beliefs or core values, but I do try and at
least get a person to pause and try to consider a different
viewpoint or facts. I have no aspirations or delusions that I can
get people to think the way I do or believe that I am right on any
particular topic. My upbringing and life experiences form a
different outlook than any other person and I believe every other
person I meet has experienced life in their own way that forms
their own outlook.
Wow I am sounding like some old coger rocking on the porch……..
Thank you,
Brian Webster
*From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com
<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>] *On Behalf Of *Adam Moffett
*Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2020 1:49 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT - political
I would definitely not approve of a CHAZ/CHOP type thing in my
neighborhood. I'm not sure what I would do about it. I suppose
I'd probably show up to their meetings and say bad things to them.
Then they'd call me a fascist or something. We'd have to see
where it went from there.
The executive order I referred to was signed by the president on
June 26th. It was titled “Protecting American Monuments,
Memorials, and Statues and Combating Recent Criminal Activity"
I don't know what those federal agencies did in the absence of
that specific order. Maybe they waited for an order?
Please don't think I'm outraged. Quite the opposite. I don't
think anything could possibly outrage me anymore because I'm sick
and tired of outrage.
On 7/20/2020 1:32 PM, Brian Webster wrote:
Is that all they are doing? I do not know and do not expect anyone who
is not directly involved in the activities to know at this stage, but it is
very plausible that they are doing what is within their authority. Speculation
by the media is not in itself reason either. Fact is people should do their due
diligence and try to find out their own facts. Leaving that job up to a
journalist and hanging your hat, opinion, and perception on a journalist these
days probably not the wisest plan of action. But if a person wants to have an
echo chamber opinion, they should go ahead and pick the media outlet that
supports their point of view and stick with them. All media outlets these days
have a major bias like we have never seen before. One side or the other,
doesn't matter. Journalistic integrity is not what it used to be yet it would
seem most of society is quick to question everything and everyone except the
media.
I know that if I lived in this area I would expect my constitutional rights to be
protected as a citizen with freedom of movement in those neighborhoods and have access to
my place of business or residence. A government letting a whole region of a city be taken
over like what happened in Seattle is absurd. That was an invasion and take over plain
and simple. Protests are one thing, occupying a place and keeping cops out and not having
100% agreement by all those in the occupied area is nothing short than an act of war and
at minimum domestic terrorism. Plain and simple. If you do not believe that, seriously
ask yourself if you would be ok if that happened to you on your own property or property
you own for your place of business. That is a hostage/kidnap situation. Life, liberty,
and the pursuit of your own happiness has been taken away. Blocking you from police, fire
or EMS protection is shameful and illegal. Any politician that does not look at things
that way is a puppet and hypocrite, especially when they have their own guards and
security protecting them. At least in Portland the Feds starting not to allow that to
happen in the Federal park or give them any more base of operations to try and accomplish
that in that city. The word "occupy" is always thrown around by pacifists in a
different context about our worldwide military presence than how they support it for
these types of protests, it's not any different in definition on our own soil even if you
do agree with the political position or cause. No other person should be able to take
control like that and deny you the rights you are provided in this country.
I guess my point is, don't let just one type of information intake form
your outrage. Speak to others that may have different input and knowledge (but
please do it in a civil way and with the intent to listen not just answer
back). This Portland situation likely started from just clearing the park and
then massive outrage flames were fanned based on people not realizing that they
were on federal land in the first place and those officers were there to
protect the property and enforce those laws.
Executive orders......not a fan of them. They can easily be misused and usually a plan of
last resort when there is political deadlock. An executive order that says protect federal
property? I would expect that every federal officer knows that is their job. Heck every military
person knows that is their job. The first general order of a sentry is "to take charge of this
post and all government property in view". Was it an actual executive order issued or was it
more of a memo with the president reminding people that is what needs to be done. Rioting and
tearing down statues and defacing federal (and by default taxpayer) property seems very divisive at
this point. Letting things devolve to more than that when the group has "Occupy" in their
name and cause should be treated as such and not considered just a protest. Their intent is stated
in the name.
Thank you,
Brian Webster
-----Original Message-----
From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 12:55 PM
To:af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - political
It doesn't all stem from clearing a park. That might not be what you're
trying to say, but it could be read that way.
The reason people are pointing a finger at the current administration is
there was an executive order signed a few weeks ago ordering federal
agencies to protect federal property, and that seems to be a direct
response to the ongoing protests. They can bring in this variety of
agencies because the Homeland Security Act of 2002 allows them to
deputize other federal agents to assist:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/17/us/politics/federal-agents-portland-arrests.html
So the justification is protecting federal property, but is that all
they're doing? No political motivations of any kind here? And while I'm
sure that they have the legal authority for all of this, isn't it ok to
ask whether they should?
On 7/20/2020 12:04 PM, Brian Webster wrote:
In Portland part of the protest and occupy movement protesters were
trying to camp out in a FEDERAL PARK downtown. This attempt to occupy federal
property has not happened in other cities that I am aware of and hence the
different agencies involved. That Park director requested more federal law
enforcement help in getting the people off the park grounds and not allow them
to camp there. This was not a case of the black helicopters coming and federal
officers taking over local law enforcement authority from the locals. If was
Federal Law Enforcement protecting federal property. In ALL law enforcement
agencies it is not unusual for plain clothes officers, detectives etc. to have
unmarked vehicles and use them when making arrests. This is hardly unusual
police activity if you look at the whole picture. Local law enforcement does
this type of thing all of the time. If these federal officers had identified
people who committed a crime on federal property and then fled, they are within
their law enforcement powers to directly pursue and apprehend them even if the
apprehension is not on federal property. Local and state officers have the same
powers. It's not typically used but it's not unheard of for say a police
officer to pursue someone who they believe has committed a felony and cross a
state line. That officer is fully empowered to make that arrest in the other
state. It has happened many times and the laws have been upheld to allow for
this. There are also still the power to effect a citizen's arrest as well.
Nobody likes to do it because it gets messy legally after the fact but that is
still allowed in this country.
Before people get outraged at what the press is telling them is happening,
they should take a step back and gather their own facts and knowledge and not be so quick
to accept some "experts" statements. You all know how bad a journalist can
butcher up a technical article on stuff we do and work with, what makes us think they are
any smarter in the field of law or medicine?
https://kval.com/news/local/police-remove-occupy-portland-campers-from-park?fbclid=IwAR0dSQqKXj_ikwqmSfvMvvPtOVoFVhGjwrH126Lhiomx3iZXlxTUGtT2S7E
"This morning, at request and at the lead of the US Federal Protective Service,
the Portland Police helped remove campers at Shrunk Plaza, which is federal property across the
street from Chapman Square," Adams wrote. "The campers who were arrested - an estimated 8
to 10 people - at Shrunk Plaza were detained by federal police and cited under US federal law.
Initial reports indicate arrests were completed in a peaceful manner."
Thank you,
Brian Webster
-----Original Message-----
From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 11:41 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - political
I don't think I'd like it if Obama had dispatched federal troops to
"Republican-led cities" claiming they are stupidly and conservatively run.
It also doesn't make me comfortable having Ken Cuccinelli driving
this. Not a guy who should have the power to send troops to your city for
political reasons, or any reason. Andy Taylor would make him keep his one
bullet in his shirt pocket.
-----Original Message-----
From: AFmailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com On Behalf Of Larry Smith
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 10:20 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Groupmailto:af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - political
The US Border Patrol is a part of the Immigration and
Naturalization Service.
--
Larry Smith
lesm...@ecsis.net
On Mon July 20 2020 10:14, Ken Hohhof wrote:
I thought I read they admitted to being Customs & Border
Patrol, at
least in Portland. But yes other reports say that a force was
assembled from various federal agencies so maybe also US
Marshals.
They have been using border patrol in questionable ways for
awhile,
like setting up roadblocks on highways hundreds of miles from
any border.
From: AFmailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 9:56 AM
To:af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - political
The National Guard is a state resource. I think he can request
it, but
I'm not sure he can command it.
What I read, they were US Marshals, and other unidentified
federal
resources.
bp
<part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com>
On 7/20/2020 7:41 AM,ch...@wbmfg.com mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com
wrote:
Yeah, you gotta wonder what their orders were.
Doesn’t a president normally activate the National Guard when
extra
help is needed?
These guys were – what? Homeland Security? ICE?
From: Jaime Solorza
Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 8:35 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - political
Hitler tactics by Bunker Boy...there , I said it.
On Sun, Jul 19, 2020, 2:49 PM <ch...@wbmfg.com
mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com >
wrote:
Not trying to break lent, but I am lacking understanding.
What are the young white kids rioting about in Portland?
I am from Oregon, I remember protests in the 60s and 70s over
Vietnam.
I also remember a line of State Police walking through a park
downtown
and busting heads of those that did not clear out. Actually
one of my
first telco bosses had been one of those State Bull Cops.
Are young white kids just aching for a chance at anarchy? I
don’t get it.
Misbehaving while trying to wrap some kind of noble cause
around you
is pretty childish.
--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com mailto:AF@af.afmug.com
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