Really, corporations cannot sue for libel? Defamation?
You bet they can. Thousands of cases that can be cited.
I think even Oprah was sued by a company for this once.
Corp body.
Corporation: a body that has the same rights as a natural person in the eyes
of the law.
From: fiber...@mail.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023 1:44 PM
To: Chuck McCown
Cc: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
Glassdoor provides reviews of companies, not employees.
Companies have fewer protections than employees in this regard.
- Jared
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023
From: "Chuck McCown" <ch...@go-mtc.com>
To: fiber...@mail.com
Cc: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
If that was true, the courts would be packed with Glassdoor litigation.
From: fiber...@mail.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023 1:33 PM
To: Chuck McCown
Cc: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
There's a first time for everything :)
However, what you were proposing was formalizing the process and leaving a
paper trail. This would substantially increase the risk of litigation. The
abuse aspect was already mentioned multiple times, so not all of it would be
unwarranted.
- Jared
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023
From: "Chuck McCown" <ch...@go-mtc.com>
To: fiber...@mail.com
Cc: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
Been an employer for over 40 years now, thousands of employees over the years,
many hundreds of HR calls made and received between hundreds of companies.
Zero litigation. Zero rumors of litigation. Zero threats of litigation.
Moreover, everyone we call is forthcoming with frank information.
Nobody says they can’t discuss the employee.
From: fiber...@mail.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023 12:42 PM
To: Chuck McCown
Cc: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
Litigation, or risk thereof, is the reason why a lot of corporations will only
confirm that a person was previously employed there and the dates of employment.
I believe Colorado was the first state to require posting salary ranges.
- Jared
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023
From: "Chuck McCown" <ch...@go-mtc.com>
To: fiber...@mail.com, af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
Exactly what would be the complaint in the litigation? Disparagement?
Not a valid complaint if true. Not actionable if true. You can legally
disparage all you want as long as you are telling the truth. Been on FB much?
Oh, he posted a mean thing in the database... Ima gonna sue. Yeah, good luck
with that.
Sharing credit info is no different than sharing employment info. We do it
daily. We call, others call, we share.
Just be a centralized database of this info. Deadbeat doesn’t pay their bills.
Already in the credit system.
So you think you would have something to litigate... Love to see it.
What states require a company to post salary ranges?
From: fiber...@mail.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023 11:51 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Cc: Chuck McCown
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
... or each company could post salary ranges, as already required in some
states. This obliviates the need for a middle man.
As to a permanent record, that would probably be illegal in multiple states and
an excellent way of being on the receiving end of litigation. And not without
cause, there's a reason why blacklisting was made illegal.
Employers can already ask for references and a CV.
- Jared
Sent: Wednesday, February 15
From: "Chuck McCown via AF" <af@af.afmug.com>
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" <af@af.afmug.com>
Cc: "Chuck McCown" <ch...@go-mtc.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
There is a new startup for you, have potential employees register, potential
employers register, match up the ones that have overlap. “Legal Tender”
Here is another one.
I wish there as a service that employers could subscribe to where we can all
report bad employees. Give people kinda a credit score based on how good or
bad they were at previous jobs. Let them file a protest and a letter just like
a credit report.
I would call it “The permanent record”
From: Forrest Christian (List Account)
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023 11:18 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
I really wish there was a way that one could determine if the maximum an
employer was willing to pay overlapped with the minimum an employee would
accept without completely spoiling the whole negotiation process.
I don't want to waste anyone's time if I won't be able to pay anything close to
what they need.
I have the same issue with some vendors who force you through this entire
quoting process to find out that the lowest price they can offer is 10x what
you'd be able to afford.
On Wed, Feb 15, 2023, 9:33 AM <dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote:
If they didn’t advertise any range or even a ballpark figure at all then it’s
fair to ask what they had in mind.
From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> On Behalf Of Zach Underwood
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023 11:28 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
I disagree with that, late last year I was laid off so most of January I was
looking for another job. I was making over 100k at the last role and more than
one interview in January for a role only to find out they top out at like
60k. So after that I would only interview if I knew the range. It was a waste
of time for me if I did not know the pay..
On Wed, Feb 15, 2023 at 11:17 AM <dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote:
Not only that, but part of Job Hunting 101 is don’t discuss compensation
too early. This isn’t some executive level skill, everyone should know this.
You can negotiate once it’s understood that both parties are interested.
From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> On Behalf Of Forrest Christian (List
Account)
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023 11:10 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
The value of someone with zero skills and experience is zero.
The fact that many employers are willing to hire someone that has zero
skills and experience at $15/hr and train them at zero cost to the employee is
an awesome deal for a person who wants an opportunity.
Unfortunately it seems that a lot of people with zero skills and zero
experience think they should get paid at the same rate as someone who has gone
to school on their own dime and learned a trade. Or the same as someone who
has 20 years experience.
Apparently the electrical field has the same problems. Employers willing
to take the risk on someone and pay not only to train the people but also to
pay a survival wage during training are often rewarded by applicants that
demand the same wages as fully licensed electricians.
On Wed, Feb 15, 2023, 8:08 AM <fiber...@mail.com> wrote:
I don't quite get the logic of this.
Why would you work for less than market wages?
How is working for less than market wages an investment in yourself?
- Jared
On Wednesday, February 15, 2023 Chuck Macenski wrote:
One way to say it: "The youth of today cannot live on $15 an hour so a
lot of candidates will not even walk through the door because other places even
in the field of welding pay higher to start."
Another way to say it: "The youth of today will not invest in themselves."
On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 9:48 PM Ryan Ray <ryan...@gmail.com> wrote:
A lot of what is happening now can be attributed to housing imho.
A house is your domain. The place you get things done. Your mind
expands, you have more space to enjoy hobbies or learn something new.
Personally, I don’t get that from an apartment when I have to worry about my
neighbours and volume levels and having no space to do anything.
I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with making your own sandwich, or
living at your appropriate means, but I don’t consider living with roommates
living. It’s a stepping stone to the American dream (owning a house).
My parents have told me about their times growing up, living in the
single wide. The pipes would freeze every winter and my dad would be down there
with the hair dryer in the 70’s to unthaw. That’s all fine and dandy. When they
had me in 88, they bought a house, probably 1700sqft, it was nice. I wouldn’t
have had the childhood I had by being in a trailer.
I don’t really believe in religion of any kind, they all have valuable
teachings (and not so valuable) but I think it’s just how you think about the
world at large. Things are always changing, and I don’t think it’s a bad mantra
to think that the new generation should have it better than generations past.
Doesn’t mean you have to stop learning, or applying yourself. In Canada
specifically our housing is so out of control that even a new family with one
kid still has to rent and/or be in a small apartment unless they wait until
they’re 40 and have had decent paying jobs (70k) a year for a while.
Or live in the boonies and kill your own food, gather your own wood,
and there’s nothing wrong with that either.
On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 5:25 PM Chuck McCown <ch...@go-mtc.com> wrote:
Exactly what problems are young people facing? Almost every single
one that wants to can enlist in the military. That will feed them and teach
them a skill (and some manners, and how to work) and they will come out with
the VA and GI Bill. Pell grants, student loans.
If someone wants to better themselves, they can. Kids today have it
far easier than ever before. Work from home, online classes that are free,
hell you can learn highly specialized technical stuff on Youtube.
What is wrong with making yourself a sandwich? If you are broke,
don’t f**king spend. You are making my point for me.
Oh, the horrors of having to cook your own food, walking to work and
living in a single wide. Those are human rights abuses man! (said all the
snowflakes and they melted and went down the storm sewer)
Where on the stone tablets that Moses brought down from the mountain
does it say: “Young people should have it easier than you had it”?
You eat what you kill.
https://historyhustle.com/2500-years-of-people-complaining-about-the-younger-generation/
From: Ryan Ray
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2023 5:55 PM
To: Chuck McCown
Cc: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
Not defeatist or jealousy or envy.
I’m 34, I bought a 2500sqft house on a green belt in 2013 (25 Years
old). Sold my company, and I live an extremely comfortable life for someone my
age. No mortgage, a couple nice cars. I worked very hard, lots of long nights,
lots of learning to get to where I’m at, and did it all without having any
generational wealth to start with. To phrase it for you old folks, I pulled
myself up by my bootstraps.
However, your attitude is what makes me call you a boomer. You seem
to have no empathy and are not willing to discuss the current problems facing
young people today. You keep referencing back to how you did it, and just a few
bucks in the 80's or the 70's or whatever. I could see it in your post. Saying
things like "Make a sandwich at home, ride the bus, live in a trailer"
Don't get me wrong Chuck, you're a smart guy. I've learned a lot from
you over the years both in person and through this list. I take that as one of
my core values is to listen to people, even when I think they're stupidly
wrong, and make sure I never close myself off to any viewpoint and that makes
me better in everything I do.
I just think you're hand waving away a lot of current economic issues
plaguing the world. Young people should have it easier than you had it, just
like you had it easier than someone born in the 20's. Or should we just keep
letting trillion dollar corps run the world and you got yours, so the young
kids can go pound sand because their $18/hr job should suffice. (BTW my first
"real" job back in 2008 was 35k a year) I was 19. No schooling, and that would
be your $18/hr now.
On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 3:20 PM Chuck McCown <ch...@go-mtc.com> wrote:
Defeatist attitude.
Or just jealous? Envy?
In 1990 I was so broke I was sitting on the side of the highway
with my 4 kids (at the time) selling everything I had to get a bus ticket to
get out of town to get to a job to make a few bucks to move the family.
Fast forward 10 short years and I had enough to retire.
Just hard work. At 40 no less, not 50.
And now 33 years later my house is 5 X larger than that.
Hell, my garage is bigger than that.
And my only roommates have been my kids.
But there was some sleeping in dirt and enjoying it at certain
periods.
Doncha only wish you could be like a boomer...
From: Ryan Ray
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2023 3:48 PM
To: Chuck McCown
Cc: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
lol. These boomers I swear. Live in your 5 roommate 2000sqft box
until 50, retire at 87. Bcck in my day I slept in a dirt pile and we enjoyed it.
On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 2:41 PM Chuck McCown <ch...@go-mtc.com>
wrote:
Fantasy land
From: Ryan Ray
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2023 2:54 PM
To: Chuck McCown
Cc: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
I think ages make a huge difference in a lot of this. If you're
talking about a 17 year old, you're still living at home, saving all your
money, trying to get out. Sure, $17 an hour would be amazing.
If you're 22, you should be able to afford a 1br apartment on
your own, you shouldn't need roommates, you should expect that you can save 1k
a month for the future, maybe purchase a home by 28? You're going to need to
make more than $17 an hour.
On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 1:10 PM Chuck McCown <ch...@go-mtc.com>
wrote:
Not sure I am getting your point. Young people frequently
struggle when starting out. The struggle is valuable. You get ahead by
getting educated, getting trained, learning skills people will pay you for.
You do not deserve anything but free air to breath and perhaps water if you
live in an area where it rains. You eat what you kill.
In your example below you are not taking into account, those
with half a brain will have roomates with which to split all the rent and
utilities. That one move makes it go to having plenty of spending money.
So what is it you want me to learn here? In 1979 milk was
$1/gallon. It is now $4.33. Same price adjusted for inflation ...
I do not buy that the kids now-a-days have it any worse than I
did.
Cost of a big mac in 1979 was 95 cents. Today, $4.50, same
price adjusted for inflation...
What do I need to learn here???
From: Ryan Ray
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2023 1:58 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Cc: Chuck McCown
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
Chuck,
I'm going to assume you're not trying to cherry pick statistics
and want to learn and listen.
Housing is only one part of the equation. Food, services, fuel,
goods are at all time highs. Rental markets are becoming unfeasible unless
living with roommates. I'm not sure where or how this mobile home fits in with
the work in your area. Is there work in the area for your daughter to earn $18
an hour?
Talent.com says that at $18 an hour, working for 40 hours a
week, gets you $2500 monthly net.
Going off these assumptions Cost of Living in Utah (2023) | SoFi
Rent: $1100
Food (No Restaurants): $253
Utilities: $300
Gas?: $400
I think you yanks have things like health insurance. $100/mo?
I haven't thought of everything, but you're already up to
$2200/mo. You don't get ahead because you're behind before you even start.
Now take into account that the average home price in Utah is
$500k and you cherry picked some bottom of the barrel trailer. I can't tell if
you're being serious or not.
On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 11:55 AM Chuck McCown via AF
<af@af.afmug.com> wrote:
One of my millennial daughters, grown, married, trying to
adult, lives with her brother and his wife told me that I just don’t understand
how hard it is today compared to when I was younger. So I did a little
comparison for her:
My first paid job in 1976 was $2/hour. That would be about
$10.70/hour today.
(I was an unpaid apprentice to a machinist in 1974, and slave
labor on the farm from 1960 until I escaped).
My first skilled, formally trained, semi professional,
utility lineman job in 1979 paid $4.50/hour.
That would be about $18 today.
My first home, single wide 10 x 50 mobile home cost $12,000
in 1982. Or about $36K today.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/744-S-1750-W-Vernal-UT-84078/2070550612_zpid/
So how is it people have it so much worse today?
From: Jeff Broadwick - Lists
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2023 11:39 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
Too many parents want to be friends with their kids and not
actually parent. Good news is, if you do a good job of parenting, you’ll
likely have the opportunity out to become friends with your kids after they
move out.
Jeff Broadwick
CTIconnect
312-205-2519 Office
574-220-7826 Cell
jbroadw...@cticonnect.com
On Feb 14, 2023, at 1:25 PM, Sterling Jacobson
<sterl...@avative.com> wrote:
Yeah, that’s a problem for sure.
All the youth (and some adults) see online is prosperity
and wealth and entitlement.
Your definition of existing just doesn’t even come to their
minds. To use a phrase, they literally don’t comprehend it.
I was living happily in a one room apartment for $400 a
month and eating the same PB&J and soup for lunch/dinner on almost no monthly
spend.
I had an old futon bed that I had purchased in college as
furniture. My monthly output was focused on paying rent and a bit for food and
my car.
I was hungry for more, made my way by learning, taking what
I could find and working my way up.
And during none of that did I think to myself, “This is
shit, I am entitled to more because I exist.” Lol
My grown kids ask for very little and even then get told no
all the time, or have conditions.
I worry about my younger kids that have spent a lot more
time online. They still know they get nothing as a default, but they are more
entitled in language and practice than my older kids.
Society online in general isn’t doing anyone any favors.
I mean some of the youtube crap they watch is just inane,
and some of these people just throw around money like it magically appeared to
them out of thin air without a care.
There is no accountability or explanation.
From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> On Behalf Of Chuck
McCown via AF
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2023 10:37 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Cc: Chuck McCown <ch...@go-mtc.com>
Subject: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
I advertised for hiring yesterday, a no experience
necessary, get paid to learn MIG mild steel welding. PT/FT flexible hours.
We hire 17 year olds. I immediately got crap from this guy saying that the
“young people of today” cannot exist on less than $18/hour which is what he
gets and he works from home.
Lots of people defended my $15/entry level, get paid to
learn welding position.
He deleted his post then sent me this:
Hello there,
Our of respect for you because it wasn't my intent to cause
tension, I've deleted my comment on your posting. My only point was to
emphasize that the going rate for a lot of entry level jobs is much higher than
$15 an hour. Welding is a great skill and can open up great avenues in the
future.
However, The youth of today cannot live on $15 an hour so a
lot of candidates will not even walk through the door because other places even
in the field of welding pay higher to start.
What I emphasized at my company starting at $18 is just one
example. We have people here that make well over $50 an hour because we operate
on a commission structure. But that $18 base is livable when a one bedroom is
$1000+ in tooele a month and depending on where you live it's as low as $1600+
Again, never meant to offend so I am sorry for causing you
any trouble.
I replied:
So you expect someone to walk from High School directly
into a job where they can have a nice home, car and things? Wow, without
learning a trade, profession or other skill? Our $15/hour people take home
$2000/month. Pretty sure someone can exist on that and the smart ones will
have roommates or live with their parents. And the smarter ones will quickly
be making more than $18/hour. We have exactly zero problems finding as many
workers as we need. So your opinion that "youth of today" cannot exist on
$15/hour is just that, unfounded opinion. I guess your definition of "exist"
is different than mine. You can exist by walking, riding a bicycle or taking a
bus to work. You can exist by eating home cooked meals and making a home made
sandwich for your lunch. You can exist by wearing clothes from a thrift store.
You don't need the latest iPhone and Netflix to exist. Read a book. The
struggle IS the journey and is what creates grit and strong character.
He replied and blocked me:
Yeah Okay Boomer. I was reaching out to be nice but you
clearly have no idea what life is like for us today. I just bought my first
house at 31 because of how shit things are right now compared to when you were
younger. But thanks for proving my point by being an asshole about "my
definition of exist"
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