I think providing some simple tools for self compliance could go a long ways towards fixing the problem. From what I've seen on the lists, when WISPA members aren't in compliance it's more often that they don't know any better than that they're intentionally violating the rules - or they at least don't understand why it's important to follow the rules.
It seems to me to be pretty common for WISPs to not even know simple things like the max EIRP for the various bands, and it's easy to do things like sticking a stinger on a 5.4 SM and not bother adjusting the TX power to make sure it's still under 30db EIRP - and I'm sure a lot of people think nothing of doing that and probably don't even realize there's anything wrong with it. I try hard to keep everything on our network compliant as well, but I'm sure an audit would find some things that are out of compliance - there have been times when I changed a link to a DFS channel and forgot to adjust the power level on the remote side or whatever - which wasn't intentional, but like Steve said, that still isn't acceptable... but at least we try. I can only imagine how much stuff is way out of compliance on some of the networks out there. ________________________________ From: Af [af-boun...@afmug.com] on behalf of That One Guy via Af [af@afmug.com] Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 1:00 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Rocket M5 and 5.2 band? “If WISPA weere to change their charter and membership agreement to reflect an obligation to comply, their budget from dues would cause rick harnish to live on spam and potatoes, and he might not get the spam.” -This was tongue in cheek, in saying if WISPA removed the cheaters from their roles they would have a much smaller membership. If you’re saying that WISPA members are ignoring their legal obligations with the FCC AND their contractual obligations as WISPA members, then just come out and say that. -WISPA members are ignoring their legal obligations with the FCC AND their contractual obligations as WISPA members No less than the President of WISPA’s Board is here saying that WISPA has stepped up on interference issues, and he gave you examples. Nowhere has Chuck or any other WISPA Board member or employee ever suggested that WISPA will ignore WISPA members’ actions (the “oil on its garage floor,” if you will). -Knowing its present and putting your head in the sand is ignoring it. Knowing there is oil on your floor and going to your neighbors garage is nice, but theres still oil on your floor, there is no way around that, but yeah, it buys you points with your neighbor. If you’re aware of issues you’d like WISPA to address, even if they are being caused by WISPA members, I’d encourage you to speak up. -When I snitched on a vendor it was readily apparent thats "cool". At worst, you’re suggesting that WISPA is complicit in/turning a blind eye to its members’ open violations of FCC rules and regulations. -Not complicit, definitely complacent. Ive said for a long time WISPA should provide clear tools for self compliance, I have no expectation of WISPA to enforce anything, thats not their job. Pointing to part 15 rules and FCC documents is a copout to self compliance assistance. Look at the number of times threads are started with folks simply asking about numbers, they get links to FCC documents. Part of WISPA membership should be access to a compliance package that doesn't have to be all that complicated. A clear definition of guidelines, a method to get clarification from the FCC through WISPA on any question of compliance. A few white papers, maybe a checklist. A "did you know" list of known compliance violation issues like, "hey youre running UBNT gear, if you have a channel list set, it doesnt automatically limit power to FCC regulations in this firmware release. If you have a stinger on a 5.4 FSK SM, heres how to ensure youre within guidelines on EIRP...BUT here is the FCCs take on whether you even have a legal system with a stinger on an FSK SM" Of course then there is the liability copout... If we offer this type of thing then we may be liable if the info is misunderstood, or whatever. I would bet that as hard as I try to stay compliant, and audit of the network under my control probably has some violations. today for example, I happenned to be checking a cluster of 3ghz APs we replaced after a lightning strike and realized I had forgot to change to the appropriate power levels for the antenna and channel size to meet EIRP. so I fixed it, but that doesnt make it OK that I was non compliant, my neighboring WISPs may have had to take mitigating actions because of my incompetence on the matter. Any customer who was installed since the replacement at the edge of the acceptable limits might now be problematic, for that reason alone, alot of folks would either leave their power up, either permanently or until they could get techs out to the customers to get the link better. Thats not acceptable behavior on our part, its irresponsible. The fact that I corrected it is no excuse for the fact that I was not compliant. Incompetence on my part, thats something WISPA cannot ever do anything about other than to send out an email to members recommending they fire their incompetent staff to avoid FCC penalties. What WISPA CAN do is guide the industry toward a whole new attitude toward stewardship of what spectrum we have by providing those tools and guidance. Ill argue this point til Im blue in the face that until the industry treats itself as if it were the same caliber as the Cellco industry (loosely defined) WISPA or any representative organization will not every have the "teeth" they could. On the same hand (yes) WISPA can only do so much, theyre not cops, babysitters, or parents. On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Hass, Douglas A. via Af <af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote: I’m with Chuck—I have no idea what you’re getting at here. You wrongly suggested: “If WISPA weere to change their charter and membership agreement to reflect an obligation to comply, their budget from dues would cause rick harnish to live on spam and potatoes, and he might not get the spam.” WISPA does have a Code of Ethics that addresses this very issue, so your speculation is wholly incorrect. If you’re saying that WISPA members are ignoring their legal obligations with the FCC AND their contractual obligations as WISPA members, then just come out and say that. No less than the President of WISPA’s Board is here saying that WISPA has stepped up on interference issues, and he gave you examples. Nowhere has Chuck or any other WISPA Board member or employee ever suggested that WISPA will ignore WISPA members’ actions (the “oil on its garage floor,” if you will). If you’re aware of issues you’d like WISPA to address, even if they are being caused by WISPA members, I’d encourage you to speak up. What you’re insinuating here is just way off base, at best. At worst, you’re suggesting that WISPA is complicit in/turning a blind eye to its members’ open violations of FCC rules and regulations. Nothing could be further from the truth, based on the evidence I have seen. Doug From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com<mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com>] On Behalf Of That One Guy via Af Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 11:45 AM To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Rocket M5 and 5.2 band? going into somebody elses garage and putting their tools in order doesnt clean the oil off your garage floor even if it makes your neighbor happy. On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Jaime Solorza via Af <af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote: What do you mean WISP equipment? Jaime Solorza On Oct 23, 2014 10:26 AM, "Chuck Hogg via Af" <af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote: I'm not quite sure what you are getting at? What you are stating is part of the Code of Ethics (Article II). Are you stating that if WISPA were the regulator or that if WISPA could regulate the industry? Keep in mind, we have stepped up in interference issues where the FCC has failed to identify the source of interference. In fact, we identified the storage facility in Las Vegas that was interfering with their TDWR, a non-WISP using WISP equipment. We've stepped up to help in cases where the FCC has asked us to. Regards, Chuck On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 12:14 PM, That One Guy via Af <af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote: Im not faulting WISPA, theyre not a regulator. Im faulting the members of the industry and the industry itself. I really cant even fault UBNT, theyre delivering the requested product. If they were to add into their next production release something that forced everything to always be in compliance, it would probably be the least downloaded firmware in the history of the company. If WISPA weere to change their charter and membership agreement to reflect an obligation to comply, their budget from dues would cause rick harnish to live on spam and potatoes, and he might not get the spam. On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 11:07 AM, Ken Hohhof via Af <af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote: Then you’re a better man than I am. I grant you one free pass to complain. I wonder if I can put a board at the bottom of the tower to display FCC stickers, kind of like the boards at road construction sites with all the posters various government agencies require to be displayed at the workplace? To be honest, I’m kind of scared of bricking a production radio, and might swap out the hardware anyway. It’s always a little scary updating a Ubiquiti radio to a FW release that changes the region locking rules, for fear of losing functionality and having no undo. Even if you’re not doing anything illegal. Better to try it on the ground and then swap the hardware. But I’d love to tell a grain elevator I’m having a guy climb their 165 ft leg during harvest while they are loading and unloading grain so he can disappear into the cloud from the grain dryer and put a sticker on a radio to satisfy government regulations. Of course they have their own OSHA stories to tell. From: That One Guy via Af<mailto:af@afmug.com> Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 10:53 AM To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Rocket M5 and 5.2 band? every single one of the radios that got that have the stickers ken, whether they have half peeled off or not (i didnt bring alcohol swabs) I dont know, but they did all get the sticker. Im afraid of the FCC a judgement from them on a company our size could cause me to be unemployed. (also the luxury of it being less than 50 radios didnt hurt) On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 10:45 AM, Ken Hohhof via Af <af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote: Hey, Ubiquiti sends us U-NII-1 stickers for our APs when we register and get the license key. Doesn’t that show they care? You do climb the tower and put those stickers on, don’t you? If not, who’s the problem now? From: That One Guy via Af<mailto:af@afmug.com> Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 10:27 AM To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Rocket M5 and 5.2 band? we are a WISPA member last I knew. But yes, credibility with regulators. When you sit down and sya "hey! FCC, we dont like these new requirements. Change them" they giggle because they know the industry you represent isnt following the current guidelines, so catering to them really isnt top on their list of to dos. This industry has an attitude of "if we arent getting caught, we arent doing it" UBNt wont change anything because theyre called out, they have to be forced by the FCC or other regulating agencies to comply, historically speaking I men, in fantasy pants land (cool parachute fantasy pants with plenty of zippers) they might proactively comply, but in real world, theyll meh it because they saw what happenned to sales On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Mike Hammett via Af <af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote: I think the credibility with regulators is greatly increasing. Shame on anyone on this list that is not a WISPA member. SHAME. ON. YOU. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com [http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png]<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/ICSIL> ________________________________ From: "Adam Moffett via Af" <af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>> To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com> Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 10:05:53 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Rocket M5 and 5.2 band? Sub "teeth" perhaps for "credibility with regulators", or similar. What “teeth” do you expect WISPA to have? From: That One Guy via Af<mailto:af@afmug.com> Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 9:31 AM To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Rocket M5 and 5.2 band? Non UBNT fanboys would agree that UBNT is the most abused set of systems we use, note the dismay over losing "test mode" or whatever its called and the backlash I got for snitching on a vendor who was selling non US radios to US customers. UBNT wants to market themselves a a big player, but they cant even get the systems to do simple if and or for the most part in my experience of dealing with mikrotik guys, they take their spectrum stewardship seriously, Ive not dealt with all the tik guys, there are probably alot who abuse it too, and shame on them for that, but tik isnt as prevalent in the industry as UBNT is. I personally dont like the temptation to cheat, we are changing out a rocket link with a 650 right now that would work fine at full power in the lower 5gz, and I would never get caught, instead we are shedding customers while we are putting up the replacement tommorrow. Most folks wold just cheat it to get through, thats why WISPA has no real teeth On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 7:34 AM, Mike Hammett via Af <af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote: I don't believe the FCC has issued any DFS related violations that didn't include interfering with TDWR. It seems like as long as you don't interfere with TDWR, no one cares. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com [http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png]<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/ICSIL> ________________________________ From: "That One Guy via Af" <af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>> To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:48:31 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Rocket M5 and 5.2 band? it only sets in the ap if you select a channel, if you give it a list it stays at full power. I wish WISPA would realize that they have absolutely no teeth and our membership dues have no return until our industry takes stewardship of the spectrum seriously. Its things like this that ensure the 5ghz rules are here to stay, WISPA has a better chance of sticking a straw up a unicorns hind end and blowing rainbow bubbles out its nose than getting the rules changed. On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 10:18 PM, Mathew Howard via Af <af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote: That really bothers me too... the AP side will limit it to the legal limit (assuming you have the antenna size set properly), but the clients do not... I'm guessing there are an awful lot of NanoBridges out there running at 23dBm Tx power on DFS channels - which should be limited to 5dBm. UBNT really needs to fix that. ________________________________ From: Af [af-boun...@afmug.com<mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com>] on behalf of That One Guy via Af [af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 2:34 PM To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Rocket M5 and 5.2 band? I dont like that theyre not limiting power in those bands automatically, I thought they were supposed to On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 2:17 PM, Jason McKemie via Af <af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote: I didn't know the 5GHz Power Bridges ever had the ability to go that low (legally). On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 1:44 PM, Heith Petersen via Af <af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote: I assume that this does not apply to the Power Bridges. I am scared to update the few that are running 5.2 on older firmware to find out ;) From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com<mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com>] On Behalf Of Bill Prince via Af Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 1:33 PM To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Rocket M5 and 5.2 band? Go to the UBNT web site. You have to register & they will send you stickers and an activation key that you enter on the System tab in the GUI. bp On 10/22/2014 9:51 AM, Sam Lambie via Af wrote: Where the heck would one get an update key and how do you enter it into the radio? These radios are about 3 years old. This particular one worked just fine on Firmware 5.3 in 5.2... On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 10:49 AM, Glen Waldrop via Af <af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote: I don't know. I've got ~9 Nanobridge M5 out there feeding towers on short hops, all listed UNII1 and half the links are running it. Is this possibly an older unit before the UNII 2 band was enabled from factory? I wonder if the update key has to be entered to access UNII 1. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sam Lambie via Af<mailto:af@afmug.com> To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 11:46 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Rocket M5 and 5.2 band? Ok, I have a radio on the bench with 5.5.10 loaded and all I see is the 5.8 band in AP mode. what am I missing? On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 10:34 AM, Glen Waldrop via Af <af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>> wrote Works quite nicely. I've got a few out there. Nice to have 500+ MHz between feeds. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Hammett via Af<mailto:af@afmug.com> To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Rocket M5 and 5.2 band? Firmware 5.5.10 (actually, one of its betas was the first to offer it). ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com [Image removed by sender.]<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>[Image removed by sender.]<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>[Image removed by sender.]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>[Image removed by sender.]<https://twitter.com/ICSIL> ________________________________ From: "Sam Lambie via Af" <af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>> To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 11:30:14 AM Subject: [AFMUG] Rocket M5 and 5.2 band? I heard somewhere at WISPApalooza that the M series does 5.2 band now? Is that smoke and mirrors? Sam -- -- Sam Lambie Taosnet Wireless Tech. 575-758-7598<tel:575-758-7598> Office www.Taosnet.com<http://www.newmex.com> -- -- Sam Lambie Taosnet Wireless Tech. 575-758-7598<tel:575-758-7598> Office www.Taosnet.com<http://www.newmex.com> -- -- Sam Lambie Taosnet Wireless Tech. 575-758-7598<tel:575-758-7598> Office www.Taosnet.com<http://www.newmex.com> -- All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that the parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you. Therefore, if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason. By all means, do not use a hammer. -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925 -- All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that the parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you. Therefore, if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason. By all means, do not use a hammer. -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925 -- All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that the parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you. Therefore, if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason. By all means, do not use a hammer. -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925 -- All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that the parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you. Therefore, if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason. By all means, do not use a hammer. -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925 -- All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that the parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you. Therefore, if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason. By all means, do not use a hammer. -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925 -- All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that the parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you. Therefore, if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason. By all means, do not use a hammer. -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925 -- All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that the parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you. Therefore, if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason. By all means, do not use a hammer. -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925 Douglas A. Hass Associate 312.786.6502<tel:312.786.6502> d...@franczek.com<mailto:d...@franczek.com> Franczek Radelet P.C. Celebrating 20 Years | 1994-2014<http://www.franczek.com/20thAnniversary/> 300 South Wacker Drive Suite 3400 Chicago, IL 60606 312.986.0300<tel:312.986.0300> - Main 312.986.9192<tel:312.986.9192> - Fax www.franczek.com<http://www.franczek.com> www.wagehourinsights.com<http://www.wagehourinsights.com> Connect with me: [linkedin]<http://linkedin.com/in/douglashass> [twitter]<https://twitter.com/WageHourInsight> Circular 230 Disclosure: Under requirements imposed by the Internal Revenue Service, we inform you that, unless specifically stated otherwise, any federal tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purposes of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or tax-related matter herein. ________________________________ For more information about Franczek Radelet P.C., please visit franczek.com<http://franczek.com>. The information contained in this e-mail message or any attachment may be confidential and/or privileged, and is intended only for the use of the named recipient. If you are not the named recipient of this message, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message or any attachment thereto, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please contact the sender and delete all copies. ________________________________ Franczek Radelet is committed to sustainability - please consider the environment before printing this email -- All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that the parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you. Therefore, if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason. By all means, do not use a hammer. -- IBM maintenance manual, 1925
