I think religion and science being at odd's has it's roots in the European Monarchy... (Anglican Church ?)
You will have a hard time finding a Muslim Scientist (in any field of science) who feels that science is at odds with their religious believes. Regards Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet & Telecom 7266 SW 48 Street Miami, FL 33155 Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net > From: "Ken Hohhof" <af...@kwisp.com> > To: af@afmug.com > Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2016 1:48:57 PM > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - trolling again > I don’t understand the people who look at science as being at odds with > religion. I think they don’t understand the “scientific method”. Religion is > based on faith, science is based on usefulness. People who criticize science > like to throw around the word “theory” as if that proves it wrong because it > is > merely a theory, not a “fact” or “truth”. > But the point of science is to come up with theories that explain observed > facts > and make useful predictions. So Newtonian physics allowed us to calculate how > to go to the moon, and it worked out quite well. It passed the usefulness > test. > Faith may help you make ethical and moral decisions, but it doesn’t help you > make the calculations for a trip to the moon. Now Newtonian physics has failed > to explain or predict what happens at very small scale, so we have quantum > physics. Did scientist cry over Newtonian physics being proved “wrong”? Not at > all. Science is not about faith or universal truth, it is about explaining how > things work and how to design new things. If a new theory comes along that is > even more useful, scientists rejoice. It’s not like they discovered they were > worshiping the wrong god or something. > Science = useful > Science != truth > Science != faith > From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown > Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2016 10:47 AM > To: af@afmug.com > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - trolling again > Even if there was a God that said to a man:”thou shalt eat an apple each day”, > the scribes, priests and rulers over they years would have distorted that to > benefit their own purposes making pears the fruit of the devil and forbidding > us from eating fried apples or cutting down apple trees. > There is a fascinating book about how scripture gets changed over the ages > called “Misquoting Jesus”. In one case, ink bleed though on a Greek letter > totally changed a pretty important verse. > From: Bill Prince > Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2016 9:39 AM > To: af@afmug.com > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - trolling again > But his larger point is that the bible, scripture, and much that many > religions > have given us is based on what we knew at the time, and were largely trying to > explain the world around us. > As we have learned over the ages, a lot of these explanations have been > written > off as metaphors or whatever. We now have better explanations for these > things, > and we are learning more. > bp > <part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com> > On 12/22/2016 8:18 AM, Chuck McCown wrote: >> Not no problem with what he is saying, I largely have the same opinion. I >> look >> at Science and Religion as two views of the exact same thing. I only believe >> in >> one thing... truth. >> From: Bill Prince >> Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2016 9:11 AM >> To: af@afmug.com >> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - trolling again >> What Neil has to say >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRt0FKeorlM >> bp >> <part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com> >> On 12/22/2016 7:12 AM, Chuck McCown wrote: >>> Western Law does in fact have deep roots in the bible. >>> Western Common Law is the basis of our constitution modified with the >>> benefit of >>> historical observations of failed nation states. >>> But those that reject the biblical ancestry of our legal system need to >>> actually >>> read the bible, the whole thing. Perhaps several times. >>> 1) I am the LORD thy God… Thou shalt have no other gods before me. >>> OK, we have substituted our allegiance to our nation in the place of god. Ye >>> shall not pledge allegiance to any other nation. Same idea. You can lose >>> your >>> citizenship. >>> 2) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image >>> This is pretty much limited to counterfeiting these days. (ok that is a bit >>> of >>> stretch...) >>> 3) Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain >>> Huge expansion of this one, you even have to utter trigger warnings if you >>> take >>> the name of Che Guevara in vain on some college campuses. Holy cow has the >>> list >>> of things we cannot say grown lest we offend the snowflakes. >>> 4) Remember the Sabbath day >>> Just Google “Blue Laws”, lots of stuff is based on this. Including the >>> spelling >>> of an ice cream sundae. >>> 5) Honor thy father and thy mother >>> Talk to an emancipated minor for a new view on how the law forces you to >>> literally obey your parents until 18. They can even force you to get a job >>> and >>> take your money... >>> 6) Thou shalt not kill. >>> Duh? >>> 7) Thou shalt not commit adultery. >>> Not only is it against the law, it is very good advice. And if you do it, >>> your >>> spouse can sue your girlfriend for alienation of affection. >>> 8) Thou shalt not steal. >>> ibid Duh? >>> 9) Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. >>> Slander, Libel, just ask the tabloids if this has ever been an issue. >>> 10) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy >>> neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor >>> his >>> ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's. >>> Scheming is illegal and scheming normally starts in coveting. >>> So far I am arguably batting 1000, but wait there’s more! >>> Things as arcane as the time periods between bankruptcy “At the end of every >>> seven years you shall grant a remission of debts. “ >>> Look at Exodus 21 and 22, most of our tort laws can be traced to this. >>> Property laws are in there. >>> Some folks really hate to admit that the bible had anything to do with our >>> constitution or the founding of our nation. But some folks think that Sandy >>> Hook was a fabrication too.... >>> From: Jeremy >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2016 7:54 PM >>> To: af@afmug.com >>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - trolling again >>> " >>> Argument One: Our Legal System is Based on the Ten Commandments >>> The legal system of the United States of America is based on the U.S. >>> Constitution, which includes its own Ten Commandments, if you will. It >>> starts >>> off with ten rules which ensure the freedoms we have come to know and love >>> in >>> this modern democracy. The very first one—in fact the very first line of the >>> Bill of Rights—says that government shouldn’t be in the business of favoring >>> one set of religious beliefs over another. Religious liberty is something >>> Americans have historically taken very seriously, and we have always tried >>> to >>> remember that the only way one person can be free to worship as she pleases >>> is >>> if everyone else is free to worship as they please (or by extension free >>> not to >>> worship at all). >>> In short, it stipulates that one God cannot be placed above all the others. >>> That’s bedrock for religious liberty in this country. No favoritism. >>> Now let’s look at the Ten Commandments of the Bible. That set of rules >>> begins >>> with the exact opposite assertion: That there is only one true >>> God—ostensibly >>> that would be the God of the Hebrews, Yahweh—and all others are >>> illegitimate. >>> “You shall have no other gods before me,” it says as clear as day. >>> So right out of the gate, we’ve got a fundamental conflict between these two >>> sets of rules. One is fundamentally pluralistic and “secular” in the sense >>> that >>> it resolves to be nonsectarian, free from entanglement with any one >>> denominational belief set. The other is just the opposite–it prohibits any >>> other commitments and places this One True Faith above all over belief >>> systems. >>> These two ideologies are diametrically opposed to each other. I don’t see >>> how >>> anyone who’s thinking very hard about this can escape the conclusion that >>> you >>> have to choose which of these two ideologies should govern our local, state, >>> and federal governments. >>> What you do in your own houses of worship is another story. According to >>> the way >>> our government is set up, in the private sphere an individual, a family, or >>> a >>> religious community is free to worship (or not worship) as they see fit. >>> But in >>> a nation founded on the principle of nonsectarian pluralism, you simply >>> cannot >>> say that our legal system is based on the dictates of one religion or >>> another, >>> least of all one that starts out the way the Ten Commandments does. >>> Incidentally I could go on and cover other things that don’t sit right as >>> well. >>> For example, the notion of observing a Sabbath (that’s on Saturdays, btw) >>> isn’t >>> exactly carried over into the New Testament, and simply saying that you >>> worship >>> on Sundays isn’t the same thing, strictly speaking. We don’t have laws about >>> making graven images either (which is a good thing considering this >>> monument is >>> literally a graven image), nor can we possibly legislate coveting. >>> Come to think of it, can you imagine how the arch-capitalists among the GOP >>> would howl if we began to write laws about coveting? Good heavens. Are you >>> really sure you want to say the Ten Commandments should be the basis for >>> American legal system? But I digress… >>> Those things which you can extract from the Ten Commandments which made >>> their >>> way into our legal code like lying, stealing, and murder predated the Hebrew >>> religion by many centuries and are nearly universal among belief systems the >>> world over. So it’s not really accurate to talk as if the Ten Commandments >>> are >>> the sole proprietary basis for those things, either." -Neil Potter >>> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 7:51 PM, Josh Reynolds mailto:j...@kyneticwifi.com >>> wrote: >>> Excellent points. >>> On Dec 21, 2016 8:46 PM, "Jeremy" mailto:jeremysmi...@gmail.com wrote: >>> Because it gives the appearance that government is favoring a specific >>> religion, >>> in violation of the 14th amendment. It shows a lack of separation of church >>> and >>> state. If we are going to allow christian displays on public property then >>> we >>> also have to allow the Church of Satan to erect Baphomet as well. The issue >>> is >>> that Satanic churches, Muslims, and Secular belief systems are not given the >>> same rights as Christians. Just look at the Atheists and agnostics who have >>> attempted to give the opening invocations at our legislature meetings all >>> over >>> the country, and the reactions that they got. They have been berated and >>> disrespected. This is the ground zero for the establishment of a >>> government-favored religion. >>> "The claim that America was founded as a “Christian nation” is at best a >>> gross >>> over-simplification and at worst a myth fabricated in order to manipulate >>> contemporary sensibilities. Many of the prominent “Founding Fathers,” were >>> in >>> fact not Christians in the sense that contemporary evangelical, mainline >>> Protestant, and Roman Catholic churches understand the term. George >>> Washington, >>> Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, Benjamin Franklin, and a host of others were >>> Deists, or at least influenced by deist philosophy. They conceived of God >>> as a >>> divine watchmaker – this impersonal, inaccessible deity set the universe in >>> motion then sat back and watched history unfold completely independent of >>> any >>> transcendent intervention, miracles, or divine-human relationships >>> (Jefferson >>> famously edited the New Testament to remove all references to Jesus as a >>> divine >>> miracle worker and render him merely a moral philosopher). The position of >>> these Founding Fathers was far from any orthodox theology of divine >>> immanence. >>> Further, the idea that the United States could be a “Christian nation” is >>> theologically problematic. The only “Christian nation” which the New >>> Testament >>> envisions is the Kingdom of God, which transcends national, cultural, and >>> ethnic boundaries. Were the United States to be a “Christian nation,” she >>> would >>> have to do more than celebrate Christmas as a federal holiday and display >>> the >>> Ten Commandments in her courthouses. If she were held to the same standards >>> to >>> which the New Testament holds the Christian community, the United States >>> would >>> have to embody Christian principles, including the mandate to love one’s >>> enemy, >>> eschew power, put away the sword, give freely without any expectation of >>> repayment, and – because she is very rich – sell all her material >>> possessions, >>> donate the proceeds to the poor, then take up a cross of discipleship. The >>> consumerism and materialism which characterize so much of the American >>> ethos – >>> Jefferson’s “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” was a >>> modification of >>> John Locke’s “life, liberty, and the pursuit of property,” and indeed most >>> versions of the American Dream equate property with happiness – seem to be >>> at >>> odds with most versions of core Christian values. In short, the United >>> States >>> is not a “Christian nation,” and simply displaying representations of the >>> Ten >>> Commandments in public locations does not change this reality." >>> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 5:29 PM, Jaime Solorza >>> mailto:losguyswirel...@gmail.com >>> wrote: >>> yep but you will probably be yelling oh God when under dangerous or >>> extremely >>> pleasurable situation, >>> Like Blood Sweat and Tears said, "I know there is no heaven, but I pray >>> there is >>> no Hell!" >>> zaz...in your face >>> Jaime Solorza >>> Wireless Systems Architect >>> 915-861-1390 >>> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 2:39 PM, That One Guy /sarcasm >>> mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com wrote: >>> so, we use the Gregorian calendar which is named after a pope... I wonder >>> if I >>> can skip court dates on the grounds it offends me >>> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 3:21 PM, Bill Prince mailto:part15...@gmail.com >>> wrote: >>> Roadside displays should be free speech. >>> Anything guvmint should be looked at suspiciously. Whether it is christian, >>> jewish, muslim, pagan, or whatever. >>> On Wednesday, December 21, 2016 12:46 PM, Jay Weekley >>> mailto:par...@cyberbroadband.net wrote: >>> Maybe. All those displays of Lady Justice at the court houses have to go. >>> Chuck McCown wrote: >>> > How about flowers or crosses on the side of the road where someone died? >>> > Do you tear down the pyramids or stone hinge? >>> > -----Original Message----- From: Jay Weekley >>> > Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2016 1:42 PM >>> > To: af@afmug.com >>> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - trolling again >>> > Do you stop all religious displays or just Christian, Jewish or Muslim? >>> > There are plenty of religious symbols from ancient religions all over >>> > public property. I'd kind of like them removed as well. >>> > Lewis Bergman wrote: >>> >> I have a friend who is an atheist. He compares it to how I feel about >>> >> any resources from my tax money going to abortion. Not sure I agree >>> >> with the equivalency of the resources involved but I can see his >>> >> point. If that is his only issue with my stance I would like to ask >>> >> to stop all displays of Nativity Scenes in trade for not funding any >>> >> abortions. Anyway, I thought his argument was fairly reasoned. >>> >> I still ddon't understand why they care. It seems some are just >>> >> purely to try and rub Christians nose in the fact they don't believe >>> >> and think you are stupid for doing so. I view it like a lot of >>> >> things. I don't care f you are gay or straight, married or just >>> >> living with someone, Dem or Rep. As long as it doesn't affect me I >>> >> simply don't give a shit. >>> >> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 1:09 PM That One Guy /sarcasm >>> >> < thatoneguyst...@gmail.com mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com > wrote: >>> >> attention seeking behavior >>> >> most of these "athiests" "agnostics" "satanists" whatever "ist" >>> >> they present as, couldnt even tell you the basic tenets of their >>> >> "ist" and all they do is parrot simplistic talking points from the >>> >> borg of nevergrewups ... "if you celebrate christmas, than a >>> >> pagan" nonsense like that >>> >> society has slowly moved to the age of adulthood being a sliding >>> >> scale, with fewer and fewer on the lower end every generation. >>> >> the bulk of actual athiests, agnostics, satanists and other non >>> >> attention whore ists could really give a shit less what others do >>> >> just remember, just because the loudmouth makes the most noise, it >>> >> doesnt mean they represent the majority of their fellows. Also, >>> >> remember, everyone is unique, just like everyone else. >>> >> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 12:52 PM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com >>> >> mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com > wrote: >>> >> We have days on the calendar about people. >>> >> Presidents day used to be Wash’n and Linc’n bdays. >>> >> MLK day. >>> >> Casmir Pulaski day. >>> >> Columbus day. >>> >> So, why are the atheists and others so unhappy about displays >>> >> on public property about Jesus. >>> >> I doubt anyone in Illinios would get unhappy if the local park >>> >> had a Lincoln-Douglas plaque... actually Quincy had exactly >>> >> that. >>> >> Public displays frequently celebrate or inform about events in >>> >> history. >>> >> Our legal system has its basis in the bible, with some of the >>> >> legal doctrine based on the advise of Jesus. >>> >> He lived. He taught. He gave advice. It affected history. >>> >> Just like MLK. >>> >> But on MLK day do the pentagram sculptures try to share space >>> >> with MLK events? >>> >> I don’t get why the Jesus events on public property are such >>> >> an insult or affront to some people. >>> >> -- If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't >>> >> see >>> >> your team as part of yourself you have already failed as part of >>> >> the team. >>> >> No virus found in this message. >>> >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> >>> >> Version: 2016.0.7924 / Virus Database: 4739/13627 - Release Date: >>> >> 12/21/16 >>> > ----- >>> > No virus found in this message. >>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> > Version: 2016.0.7924 / Virus Database: 4739/13629 - Release Date: >>> > 12/21/16 >>> -- >>> If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your team as >>> part >>> of yourself you have already failed as part of the team.
