Mike, Daniel Wolpert is very interesting, thanks for the reference. I am in no way leaving movement out. Sensory-motor nerves have the "sensory" part in the name, meaning they not only effect the muscles but also carry information about the movement back to the brain (I know where my hand is even if I don't see it). This is a primary source of learning and knowledge acquisition, it is input to inference, and it becomes associated and self-organized along with other information coming from vision, hearing, touch, smell, etc. The output from inference is an algorithm, which controls the "motor" part of the nerves.
Actually, I just posted something about a robot with inference and sensory-motor nerves. Regular robots do not have inference, and as a result are clumsy, unnatural, and never learn new tricks. All they know is what their designers told them. Sergio -----Original Message----- From: Mike Tintner [mailto:tint...@blueyonder.co.uk] Sent: Friday, July 13, 2012 3:19 PM To: AGI Subject: Re: [agi] Emergent "Inference"? What's amazing about this - and Sergio is typical here - Ben and Boris are just as much in the same boat - is that it's an account of intelligence/mind that more or less leaves out **movement** - or, at any rate, regards it as extremely secondary, more or less an "afterthought" after thinking and perception. In truth, movement is **primary** - the brain only comes into being with movement. http://www.ted.com/talks/daniel_wolpert_the_real_reason_for_brains.html http://www.ted.com/speakers/daniel_wolpert.html As Wolpert argues, thought and perception are there to assist and envisage movement - and not the other way round. -------------------------------------------------- From: "Sergio Pissanetzky" <ser...@scicontrols.com> Sent: Friday, July 13, 2012 8:29 PM To: "AGI" <a...@listbox.com> Subject: RE: [agi] Emergent "Inference"? > Alan, > > Welcome back! I am not inclined to guessing, but this time I am going to > make a guess about your possible concern. You think I will claim that no > spatial intelligence is needed to solve the peg problem. I will not. > > In plan B, as outlined in my recent posting, inference in the human brain > is > not used. Instead, inference is installed and used on the computer. > > This does not mean that inference "knows" everything. Inference works from > knowledge, just as the child does. The child acquires that knowledge by > learning from his "sensors", mostly vision and sensory-motor nerves in > this > case, and using his inference to derive meaning from the observation. > Eventually, he will "know" what a peg is, and how to recognize one, and > how > to know if it is square or round and match it with a hole, and how to > control his muscles to do all that. The inference does all that by finding > associations. The child does not need a programmer to do all that. > > With the inference and the computer, it is the same. The robot will need a > camera and a mechanical arm with position sensors besides the inference. > But > it will NOT need a program. It will have to learn step by step, from its > sensors. Knowledge is still necessary, but it comes as input, not as > program. > > In the case of the retina, the situation is a little different. You may > have > seen my recent post about the blind climber who can see enough to climb a > mountain with a camera and electrodes attached to his togue. There is no > retina, no optical nerve, not even a vision-specific area of the brain > involved there. This confirms what I already knew from my experience with > causal sets. The anatomical details about the retina or the optical > nerves, > or left-right and upside down, are not needed at all. Not even as input. > > We would be living in a fantasy world if we believed that anyone can > understand or explain or prove or guarantee all that. I sure can't. > Because > of that, I have proposed a practical approach. First, before even starting > anything, we need a computer with the inference installed on it. Second, a > simple model of a retina, just a camera with a few hundred pixels, > followed > with the inference. Show it an image, see what it does. Does it compress > the > image as the retina does? By how much? Compare with the real retina. If a > match is found, bingo! I am sure it will. > > The wheels I am trying to set in motion even for this super-simplified > test > are so heavy that the pegs don't even appear in the picture. Yet. > > Sergio > > But please stop diagnosing me. I don't mind myself if you do, but not in > AGI. In AGI, even if I disappeared, the inference would still be there. > Sergio and inference are not the same. > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan Grimes [mailto:agri...@speakeasy.net] > Sent: Friday, July 13, 2012 10:03 AM > To: AGI > Subject: Re: [agi] Emergent "Inference"? > > Having diagnosed Sergio's crackpotitis, I have made a point of not talking > to him. =P > > But here's a question: > > Lets say you had a kiddie's play room. In the room you had toys. One of > the > toys consisted of a set of pegs and a board with holes in it. The task is > to > find the square peg and put it in the correct hole. This requires a fair > amount of spatial intelligence. The peg must be identified, the hand must > be > directed to grasp it, rotate it, lift it into position using nothing but > muscle and visual feedback (trickier than it sounds due to the kinetics of > the arm). ; position it in the correct orientation over the correct hole > (which must also be identified), and then inserted. > > Since you fancy yourself an AGI theorist, design a system that is capable > of > doing that. > > -- > E T F > N H E > D E D > > Powers are not rights. > > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > AGI > Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/18883996-f0d58d57 > Modify Your Subscription: > https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > d2 > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com > > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > AGI > Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/6952829-59a2eca5 > Modify Your Subscription: > https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/18883996-f0d58d57 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; d2 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-c97d2393 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-2484a968 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
