> It is quite possible that the progressive discovery of referents is just a 
> search and compare operation...

Isn't this tautological? Isn't it also tautological that, to be selective, 
search ( comparison must be hierarchical? And that at the bottom of this 
hierarchy of complexity are sensory inputs? And that if your algorithm can't 
start from these inputs, then it has a snowball's chance in the hell at 
starting anywhere higher?
Hello?  



From: Jim Bromer 
Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2013 9:11 AM
To: AGI 
Subject: Re: [agi] Steve's placement/payload theory of language


So anyway, I think that linguistics has to be involved with the progressive 
determination of referents and how these referents can be used to define the 
meaning of the other parts of an expression.  This is so open that formal 
linguistics may not be able to define this well but it can be defined in 
general ways or for general common meanings.  Because we can provide encodings 
that, in turn, means that we can use terms in a specialized way.  (Like when I 
said that I use the term referent to refer to a real world object or a real 
world event, or to a mental object or mental event). People in these groups 
sometimes become annoyed because we can't figure out what they are talking 
about even though they have talked about their ideas numerous times. Part of 
the problem is that we can't recall all the specialized definitions that 
individuals use.  I believe that this problem is aggravated because 
specialization is an important part of communicating and even the best of 
writers rely on this even when they are using conventional terminology.

So I think that the major obstacle confronting AGI linguistics right now is the 
discovery of referents.  Yes this could sometimes be alleviated with 
multi-modal sensors, but there is no evidence that multi-modal sensory methods 
that would allow an object to be seen and heard or sensed in other ways would 
resolve this problem of deducing what is being referred to.  It is quite 
possible that the progressive discovery of referents is just a search and 
compare operation which seems to be  major slowdown in computer science today.

Jim Bromer



On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 5:40 PM, Jim Bromer <[email protected]> wrote:

  It is a little difficult for me to answer this question so I will start with 
one part before I forget.  I had to look up sign (linguistics) and agent 
(linguistics) to get some idea about what he was talking about.  I would say 
that my approach is (or would be/will be) both.  In reading about signs I 
noticed that the idea of the referent is considered to be distinct from the 
idea of the signified.  When I refer to a referent I am referring to a real 
world thing or event or a mental idea.  I believe that the one thing that is 
missing in modern AI Linguistics is a way to follow what is being referred to.  
It probably is just too complicated for a computer program to figure out 
efficiently.  My gmail is malfunctioning so I will try to continue this later.
  Jim Bromer



  On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 1:09 PM, Piaget Modeler <[email protected]> 
wrote:

    Steve and Jim,  


    Kindly respond...



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 09:34:07 +0100
    Subject: Re: FW: [agi] Steve's placement/payload theory of language 

    From: Roland Hausser
    To: [email protected]



    Hello Michael,

    Thank you very much for your email.  I read 

    the comments by Jim Bromer and Steve Richfield

    with great interest.  They lead me to the 
    following questions:

    * Are their respective approaches sign-oriented
      or agent-oriented?

    * What do they think about defining basic concepts
      as types of the recognition and action procedures
      of an agent?

    * How about reusing these basic concepts as the 
      literal meanings of a language?

    Happy Easter to you!

    Looking forward to be reading from you,

    Best regards,

    Roland Hausser


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