Cool. Thank you for the assist.
I think that math has the distinction that it is a closed formal system and
that therefore people segregate it from the open mess that science has to deal
with (though arguably the scientific method applies).
Art seems to be that which deals with an even bigger open mess (since it always
includes humans in the system ;-) and which is even less codified though it
seems to frequently want to migrate to be science.
= = = = = =
Actually, in a way, it almost seems as if you want a spectrum running from
MATH through SCIENCE continuing through ART to ??DISORDER??
----- Original Message -----
From: Ben Goertzel
To: agi@v2.listbox.com
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 12:07 PM
Subject: **SPAM** Re: [agi] If your AGI can't learn to play chess it is no AGI
I think you're converging on better and better wording ... however, I think
somehow you do need to account for the differences between
-- science
on the one hand and
-- math
-- art
etc. on the other hand, which also involve group learning and codification
and communication of results, etc. ... but are different from science. I'm not
sure the best way to formalize the difference in general, in a way that
encompasses all the cases of science and is descriptive rather than normative
... but I haven't thought about it much and have other stuff to do...
ben
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 8:40 AM, Mark Waser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> You've now changed your statement to "science = optimal formalized group
learning" ... I'm not sure if this is intended as descriptive or prescriptive
Our previous e-mails about the sociology of science should have made it
quite clear that its not descriptive ;-) Of course it was intended to be
prescriptive. (Though, on second thought, if you removed the "optimal", maybe
it could be descriptive -- what do you think?)
And yes, I'm constantly changing the phrasing of my statement in an attempt
to get my intended meaning across. This is <eventually> going to loop back to
my belief that the degree to which you are a general intelligence is the degree
to which you're a(n optimal) scientist. So I haven't really changed my basic
point at all (although admittedly, I've certainly refined it some -- which is
my whole purpose in having this discussion :-)
>> Also, learning could be learning about mathematics, which we don't
normally think of as being science ...
True. But I would argue that that is a shortcoming of our thinking. This
is similar to your previous cosmology example. I'm including both under the
umbrella of what you'd clearly be happier phrasing as "a system of thought
intended to guide a group in learning about . . . ."
What would you say if I defined science as "a system of thought intended to
guide a group in learning about the empirical world" and a scientist simply as
someone who employs science (i.e. that system of thought).
I would also tend to think of "system of thought" as being interchangeable
with "process" and/or "method".
>> If you said "A scientific research programme is a system of thought
intended to guide a group in learning about some aspect of the empirical world
(as understood by this group) and formalizing their conclusions and methods" I
wouldn't complain as much...
So you like SCIENCE PROGRAM = SYSTEM FOR GROUP LEARNING + FORMALIZATION OF
RESULTS but you don't like SCIENCE = LEARNING + TRANSMISSION (which is the
individual case) OR SCIENCE = GROUP LEARNING (which probably should have +
CODIFICATION added to assist the learning of future group members).
----- Original Message -----
From: Ben Goertzel
To: agi@v2.listbox.com
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 10:55 AM
Subject: **SPAM** Re: [agi] If your AGI can't learn to play chess it is
no AGI
No, it's really just that I've been spending too much time on this
mailing list. I've got an AGI to build, as well as too many other
responsibilities ;-p
You've now changed your statement to "science = optimal formalized group
learning" ... I'm not sure if this is intended as descriptive or prescriptive
Obviously, science as practiced is not optimal and has many cultural
properties besides those implied by being "group learning"
Also, learning could be learning about mathematics, which we don't
normally think of as being science ...
If you said "A scientific research programme is a system of thought
intended to guide a group in learning about some aspect of the empirical world
(as understood by this group) and formalizing their conclusions and methods" I
wouldn't complain as much...
ben
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 3:13 AM, Mark Waser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Or, in other words, you can't even start to draw a clear distinction in
a small number of words. That would argue that maybe those equalities aren't
so silly after all.
----- Original Message -----
From: Ben Goertzel
To: agi@v2.listbox.com
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2008 7:38 PM
Subject: **SPAM** Re: [agi] If your AGI can't learn to play chess it
is no AGI
Sorry, I'm just going to have to choose to be ignored on this topic
;-) ... I have too much AGI stuff to do to be spending so much time chatting on
mailing lists ... and I've already published my thoughts on philosophy of
science in The Hidden Pattern and online...
ben g
On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 9:51 AM, Mark Waser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> These equations seem silly to me ... obviously science is much
more than that, as Mark should know as he has studied philosophy of science
extensively
Mark is looking for well-defined distinctions. Claiming that
science is "obviously" much more than <learning> is a non-sequitor. What does
science include that learning does not? Please be specific or you *should* be
ignored.
The transmission or communication of results (or, as Matt puts it,
language) is one necessary addition. Do you wish to provide another or do you
just want to say that there must be one without being able to come up with one?
Mark can still think of at least one other thing (which may be
multiples depending upon how you look at it) but isn't comfortable that he has
an optimal view of it so he's looking for other viewpoints/phrasings.
>> Cognitively, the precursor for science seems to be Piaget's
formal stage of cognitive development. If you have a community of minds that
have reached the formal stage, then potentially they can develop the mental and
social patterns corresponding to the practice of science.
So how is science different from optimal formalized group learning?
What's the distinction?
----- Original Message -----
From: Ben Goertzel
To: agi@v2.listbox.com
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2008 11:14 AM
Subject: **SPAM** Re: [agi] If your AGI can't learn to play chess
it is no AGI
These equations seem silly to me ... obviously science is much
more than that, as Mark should know as he has studied philosophy of science
extensively
Cognitively, the precursor for science seems to be Piaget's
formal stage of cognitive development. If you have a community of minds that
have reached the formal stage, then potentially they can develop the mental and
social patterns corresponding to the practice of science.
-- Ben
On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 8:08 AM, Matt Mahoney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
--- On Sat, 10/25/08, Mark Waser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Would it then be accurate to say SCIENCE = LEARNING +
> TRANSMISSION ?
>
> Or, how about, SCIENCE = GROUP LEARNING ?
Science = learning + language.
-- Matt Mahoney, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Ben Goertzel, PhD
CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC
Director of Research, SIAI
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an
invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet,
balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,
give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem,
pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die
gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -- Robert Heinlein
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Ben Goertzel, PhD
CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC
Director of Research, SIAI
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give
orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch
manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die
gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -- Robert Heinlein
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Ben Goertzel, PhD
CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC
Director of Research, SIAI
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give
orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch
manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die
gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -- Robert Heinlein
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Ben Goertzel, PhD
CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC
Director of Research, SIAI
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a
hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a
wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act
alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a
computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization
is for insects." -- Robert Heinlein
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