I have now learned more about kinkade :) I will take parts of this discussion into a plan. All very worth it in the end.
[email protected] http://fabricatorz.com +1.415.830.3884 +86.187.1003.9974 On Jan 9, 2012 10:39 PM, "Nathan Kinkade" <[email protected]> wrote: > Thanks for that, Bassel. Half of what I was looking for the reason > Aiki came into existence in the first place, and you answered that. > Knowing this will help to craft a better landing page for the > aikiframework.org site, a page which is more informative to the people > asking the same questions I have. > > The idea of simplifying working with HTML forms and commons actions > like Add, Modify and Delete is one of the ideas behind most > web-oriented frameworks, and lot of them already exist for PHP. But > it sounds like what may make Aiki different in this regard is that > apparently one doesn't need to write even a single line of PHP to make > it work. > > I need to learn more Aiki, and part of that will come from just > installing it fresh and playing around. > > Thanks to you and Jon for your thoughtful explanations. > > Nathan > > On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 8:12 PM, Bassel Safadi <[email protected]> > wrote: > > so here is why I think aiki is useful for and why I started writing it in > > the first place, when working on custom database driven websites that are > > actually only database tables with different designs and > > different relations between those tables you end up (after designing the > > database) doing forms to insert - update - delete data. so first thing > came > > to my mind is to automate this task with aiki forms. and by that time > aiki > > was only form generator to help me with those forms-database tasks. this > is > > something aiki do pretty well but also can be improved, now you can > click on > > any table and generate a form for it then play with how the form should > look > > then throw it somewhere. > > > > after that came the other problem when working with database driven > > websites: you end up doing the exactly same thing each time with > different > > sql queries and different output/html you name it. so I started to think > how > > to automate this task and how to make a tool to only write the sql and > the > > html. > > what you said about css is true. but still you can use a .css file and > it's > > a faster way of doing things. now here is what I think of aiki, and > forget > > all the new markup that people have to use only to do some specific tasks > > but in general any one can build a database driven website knowing only > sql > > and html and this is the idea behind aiki. now if the current version > > doesn't do that we should work to make it that simple. > > > > aiki saves time because you only need to write sql and html. and it has > many > > built in functions that are easy to use such as membership management and > > forms handling. > > > > so for those tasks I didn't find a name so called it a framework but you > can > > call it whatever you want. this is what aiki do. now for the performance > > questions this is long and complicated issue but in general since each > peice > > of an app goes throw one model (widgets) it's easy to control the > > performance by optimizing the way content get transfered from database to > > html view. other side of this is security where it's easier to control > aiki > > security since there is one door for everything and one exit. > > > > I'm happy to discuss each aspect of those and also to work to improve the > > vision and the status of aiki. > > > > -- > > Bassel Safadi | http://bassel.ws > > Skype: i.know.sy | Global: +1-323-545-3855 > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 4:43 PM, Nathan Kinkade <[email protected]> > > wrote: > >> > >> Aiki is a platform for building CMSs? In what way? I keep hearing > >> and reading about how Aiki is a "framework", but can someone please > >> define "framework" for me? Are you saying that Aiki is a drop-in > >> replacement for things like Django in python or Kohana in PHP? Can > >> someone show me and example of how this is achieved, and even better a > >> live example, and tell me how it differs from Drupal, Joomla and > >> WordPress in terms of functionality (not details)? > >> > >> What good does a widget ID do me? As far as I know you can't lookup > >> anything by a widget ID in the admin interface? You need to know the > >> widget name, and even them it's still ridiculously hard to find it > >> because it may be buried under some other meta-widget, or whatever you > >> call it. What speed benefit? Consolidating all CSS is old news for > >> websites. > >> > >> All this stuff about not having to touch PHP seems crazy to me. All > >> you've done is reimplemented a pseudo-language in some very limited > >> markup. This makes me think of the Smarty template language, or even > >> wiki markup. In both cases the object was to make things simpler for > >> the user, but in reality it's just one more markup language that > >> someone has to learn to do anything and it would have been more useful > >> for the user to just learn the basics of the original languages, like > >> PHP or HTML markup. And to make matters worse, you then need to write > >> a parser to parse all this newly invented markup, only to turn it back > >> into PHP and HTML and SQL, or whatever. It's a terrible line of > >> indirection that is unnecessary. > >> > >> But as much as anything, can someone please explain to me why Aiki was > >> written? What specific problem is Aiki trying to solve? The best > >> software out there was written because someone perceived a serious > >> lacking in the existing available tools, so they wrote some code to > >> fill this gap or go beyond existing tools. If the answer is that > >> "it's all in the database!", then that is no answer to me, because I > >> view the fact that it's all in the database a strike against Aiki. > >> It's a pain in the ass because you are cut off from using decades > >> worth of amazing tools meant to work on binary and text files, and are > >> limited to grubbing around with SQL, which is a relatively weak > >> language. If the answer is that having things in the database makes > >> Aiki vastly faster, then I'd need to see some hard data and tests. I > >> read the performance comparisons in the wiki, and they don't tell me > >> anything that seems legitimate. I mean, how fast can Aiki handle a > >> document with 10 million links compared to Mediawiki? Come on, that > >> is not test, and it is designed specifically to hobble Mediawiki > >> because you know it has to parse all links with the Linker. > >> Additionally, no document will ever have 10,000,000 links. > >> > >> Again, I don't mean all this questioning to be a criticism of the > >> people who have spent a lot of time developing Aiki. They are just > >> natural questions that are coming up for me as I thinking about > >> working with Aiki. You all need a viable story for Aiki, one that > >> will pass someone who knows anything about computers and technology, > >> not just someone reading it for buzz words and hype and is impressed > >> because they don't know any better. Has anyone else other than > >> Fabricatorz or a Fab affiliate or friend used Aiki for anything? If > >> not, why is that? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Nathan > >> > >> 2012/1/5 Jakub Jankiewicz <[email protected]>: > >> > Aiki is more then CMS is a platform for developing CMSes. The good > >> > thing about it, is that you can manipulate Database and use CSS HTML, > >> > and JavaScript without touching php. > >> > > >> > And all CSS content should have this /* widget (id) */ comments so you > >> > can easily find where to change that CSS. It's not like inline style, > >> > it's more like you want modularize CSS to put in different files, but > >> > you have speed benefit because they are all combined together. > >> > > >> > And Aiki Markup I propose on the Wiki is more like the language, so > you > >> > can do everything you need in it, and don't need to touch extensions > >> > which are pure php code. > >> > > >> > The best thing in any language is the ability to put your code into > >> > functions/modules/classes to split it up and make abstraction. But the > >> > Admin Panel should be better to allow to do this things easily. > >> > > >> > I have this mental picture of new Admin Panel I want to build, I work > >> > on it after we release Aiki 0.9 > >> > > >> > I think Aiki is great but not as it look right now, because it's mess, > >> > but how it should/will look like. > >> > > >> > On Thu, 5 Jan 2012 10:55:47 +0800 > >> > Jon Phillips <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > > >> >> Ok, under massive deadlines right now, can't address these. Tacked on > >> >> three who can or can agree with you. The one thing I'll say is its > >> >> more of a framework, so a lot of the issues you note below are from > >> >> one way of doing things which is old school openclipart. There are > >> >> many ways of doing things that would suit what you think is the best > >> >> practice for developing a site and mention below. > >> >> > >> >> All of your questions should be placed into FAQ and on the public > >> >> mailing list: > >> >> > >> >> http://aikiframework.org/wiki/FAQ > >> >> > >> >> Can you place these on that FAQ when we've hashed them out? > >> >> > >> >> below > >> >> > >> >> On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 4:04 AM, Nathan Kinkade > >> >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> > Hey. This isn't a confrontational email, but I'm just trying to > >> >> > understand the motivation and reasoning behind Aiki. After having > >> >> > worked just a tiny bit with it on OCAL, I can't really find one > >> >> > redeeming quality. Instead, I can only find negatives. I've > >> >> > already written to you about a couple, but I'll reiterate them > >> >> > along with a couple of other perceived negatives: > >> >> > > >> >> > * Having the CSS scattered all over the database in each widget > >> >> > seems just wrong and backwards. CSS scattered everywhere defeats > >> >> > one of the main purposes and advantages of CSS: that styling can > >> >> > happen in a single place, yet apply to the whole site. Scattering > >> >> > it around a database is damn near equivalent to inline styles > >> >> > scattered all over a bunch of HTML files... unmaintainable and > >> >> > slow. Right now if you want to update some certain CSS you have to > >> >> > figure our which widget it's in and how does one do that easily? If > >> >> > all styles were in, say, style.css, then it would be as simply as > >> >> > looking through the file, finding the selector you want, then > >> >> > simply changing it. > >> >> > >> >> You can place all the style in one widget wit the path style.css and > >> >> manage a site that way. No problem. In openclipart, there were many > >> >> people editing the site, so CSS got spread out. We tried to fix this > >> >> in newer versions so when you turn on debug mode, in the css and > >> >> output html, there are comments that point out which widgets contain > >> >> which content. Roger, that works in CSS too now right? > >> >> > >> >> The other pointer is that the url to the master css file is a string > >> >> of widgets. Yes, that nasty url. > >> >> > >> >> > * How does one go about themeing an Aiki site with all the content > >> >> > and styling scattered around in random fields in a database? How > >> >> > could I write an Aiki theme that a bunch of other people could > >> >> > easily use? > >> >> > >> >> There are many ways you can do this. Its a framework, so you can name > >> >> widgets a standard way, like wordpress does, and then do it with one > >> >> master stylesheet. You could also write an extension that implements > >> >> theming, or an aiki app. There are many ways to do. Others have more? > >> >> > >> >> > * How do you manage sane development on an Aiki site when it's > >> >> > impossible to version changes, since everything is in a database? > >> >> > How could it be possible to use, say, git to manage dev -> staging > >> >> > -> production, not in terms of Aiki code, but in terms of site code > >> >> > and content? > >> >> > >> >> I have been pushing hard on this one. Bassel in his recent > >> >> radicalization slightly set this back in the code, but the code on > >> >> disk is to be versioned like so: > >> >> > >> >> aiki-MAJORREV-MINORREV-BZRREVNO.zip for the packages. > >> >> > >> >> We need a fix in the latest code to get those minor and revno back, > so > >> >> its clear in the latest builds what version we are dealing with. > >> >> BZRREVNO is the revision number in bazaar. > >> >> > >> >> As for the code in the database, this is the highest priority piece > of > >> >> code that needs to be completed in aiki to version the changes in the > >> >> database, and then have an updater for them. > >> >> > >> >> Yes, this is super high priority. > >> >> > >> >> So, for on-disk changes, aiki code is in bazaar, and is under > control, > >> >> and can be managed by git. For the database, we really need to get > >> >> that piece completed. I hope that Roger can take this on, but haven't > >> >> heard from him in a while. Want to help with this part? > >> >> > >> >> > * Aiki markup seems way to complicated for any normal person to > want > >> >> > to learn. Seriously, I mean, what in heck is this: > >> >> > > >> >> > "[root]/signin?redirect=/(!(0)!)/(!(1)!)/(!(2)!)/(!(3)!)/(!(4)!)" > >> >> > > >> >> > That is starting to look like Semantic Mediawiki markup, which is > >> >> > totally fucked up. > >> >> > >> >> I completely agree. Thanks to rg1024 (roger), we now have ability for > >> >> multiple real parsers, and Jakub (jcubic) has a plan for a better > >> >> integrated and thought out syntax: > >> >> > >> >> http://aikiframework.org/wiki/Aiki_markup_2 > >> >> > >> >> Comments and suggestions welcome. > >> >> > >> >> The ideal scenario is no markup is needed, but we decided to strike a > >> >> balance. There are also extensions and plugin system for those > wanting > >> >> more. > >> >> > >> >> > * URLs like this one are crazy: > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > http://openclipart.org/style.php?site=default&widgets=181_14_21_16_1975_17_79_85_865_1903_601_463_1603_20_749 > >> >> > >> >> Yes agree. Its for pulling out CSS from the widgets. Open to better > >> >> suggestions. > >> >> > >> >> > * How do you find anything in Aiki? If you have 1000 widgets and > >> >> > need to find some certain tidbit of content to change a single > >> >> > mispelled word, how do know what widget any bit of content came > >> >> > from? > >> >> > >> >> This is a problem. We need better admin interface, a new one really, > >> >> which helps with this. > >> >> > >> >> > * If I make a change to a development site, is the only way to make > >> >> > that same change on the live site to cut and paste the change from > >> >> > the web interface? Really? Again, where does version control fit > >> >> > into this? > >> >> > >> >> Yes, this is another big problem. There are a couple of plans that > >> >> would help on this: > >> >> > >> >> * on-disk code is versioned, so that is obvious how to move from > >> >> testing to live setup > >> >> * we need that database dumping/versioning capability, so can > reimport > >> >> test/dev site to live site > >> >> > >> >> The other approach, which there is infrastructure for, and which I > >> >> want in addition is: > >> >> > >> >> * multiple databases where can sync databases so can have a live and > a > >> >> dev, or multiple databases, and can push and pull between them. This > >> >> also assumes that would also need same on-disk code. > >> >> > >> >> > I'm really struggling to find a single positive aspect of Aiki > right > >> >> > now. Can you address some of the above issues and/or loop in > others > >> >> > who can? Other than saying "it's all in the database!", please > name > >> >> > for me a single really positive aspect of Aiki over other CMSs such > >> >> > as Drupal or WordPress. Loop in Bassel if you need to, or anyone > >> >> > else. I really need to understand Aiki and the rationale behind it, > >> >> > and I will not work with Aiki on a regular basis simply because > >> >> > "it's ours". > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> Sure, looped in a few. I agree the setup is not ideal. It has come a > >> >> long way, and we want it to get better since we are running several > >> >> sites with it and its our platform. > >> >> > >> >> Are you on the mailing list? I just sent out a big plan for the next > 6 > >> >> months along with priorities which should address these issues. > >> >> > >> >> Jon > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Jakub Jankiewicz > >> > twitter: @jcubic > >> > www: http://jcubic.pl > > > > >
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