HI Christian, thanks for your answer.. you have some good facts, and
indeed, you're not flaming :)
But I'm still not convinced by what you say, and I probably will never be
as this is a hot topic and people rearly change their beliefs on such
topics... but I'll just briefly comment on what you said below...
On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 13:59:51 -0500, Christian Sonne
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Mon, Feb 06, 2006 at 12:32:43PM -0500, Youness Alaoui wrote:
Hi there..
for once, I'm forwarding an email, and I'm forwarding it to this list
too,
and that's because I think it's important!
The attached text is in french, so let me explain it... I guess some of
you know, there were 12 caricatures, representing the muslim's prophet,
Mahomet, that were published in Danemark at the end of last September.
Look, I refuse to belive that all of the commotion is caused by those
images, and here's why:
The commotion is from being fed up with all of this, as we say in french
"la goutte qui a fait deborder la vase"..
try to translate it..
1) Mohammed has been depicted on hundreds of occasions before, both in
serious and satirical contexts. Assuming muslims would have reacted
differently if the context had been serious, let's only speak of the
satirical ones, most notably as he appeared in South Park, and a spike
tv bit, where he gets his head cut off by moses - no reaction from
muslims.
depictions of the prophet is a non respectful manner will always bring
problems.. the thing is "how many muslims have seen it".. South Park..
yeah, how many muslims saw that episode ? but that's not the problem.. I'm
sure south park got a complaint and apologized for it, the problem is when
people say "no, we want to and we will do it" without any care of what a
whole part of the world is thinking...
2) if it was really that much of insult, the reaction would not have
waited almost 5 months - it would have come swiftly.
because non violent action was done and only lately they were re-published
in another newspaper and when other people say that it's "freedom of
speech"...
+ noone ever talked about it on TV until riot began.. all pacific
manifestations were simply ignored...
And I think it was published in 2 newspapers.. it was in september by a
certain newspaper, I think that one was ok, they apologized for it, then
problems began when another newspaper published the images again and
refused to apologize for it..
3) the whole situation was handled just fine by the local muslim
community, untill danish and other leading muslims started lying to the
muslims counties about what had actually happened - they have been caught
lying on television on several occasions, among other things displaying
pictures on cnn that has never been published in denmark, claiming that
they came from the newpaper - and saying that 'every day since the
drawings were published, we have brought much worse stories about
muslims', and that's simply not true.
I don't know the exact details.. the story is still new even to me.. but
from what I always heard it's 12 drawings.. I've seen some which are also
in the site you linked below.. about CNN.. I think it's non muslims who
did that because CNN is against muslims is took a habit of lying and
causing problems to muslims...
They actually opened a contest (for no specific reason) asking people to
send caricatures of the muslims prophet, and they published 12 of them
(the 'best' ones), either representing the prophet in a humiliating
image
or describing him as a terrorist (our prophet with a lit bomb on his
head,
or whatever...).
Untrue - the entire controversy started when Danish author Kظ‡re Bluitgen
complained that he could not find an artist brave enought to illustrate
his upcoming book about Mohammed. The newspaper Jyllands-Posten issued a
call for submissions from any artists willing to take up the challenge.
ok, I didn't know about this, Thanks for the information. But tell me one
thing.. I saw some of the pictures in the book, they looked respectful,
but then, why 12 caricatural drawings were published by the newspaper ? I
think they should have never been published if it was only for the book...
This is a huge insult to all muslims, and for many reasons, not only
because they are associating our beloved prophet with terrorism, but
also
Untill I saw the violent reactions, I would never have dreamt of
associating Mohammed with terrorism, guess what, now it's pretty hard
not to - even when I know that far from all muslims reacted as
inapropriatly.
well, the violent acts are not to considered muslim acted.. as I said,
Islam is 100% non violent.. all the pacific things were ignored, and TV
only shows the riot.. it's again another nice way to brain wash people...
because no image/drawing representing the prophet is allowed in Islam
(to
avoid iconography.. having an icon as an idol, the prophet being simply
a
messenger shouldn't be represented).. so not only did they violate this
law, but also they are implicitly telling the whole world that muslims
are
1) there is no law in denmark against depicting Mohammed
it's not a legal issue, it's an ethical issue...
2) if you can honestly say that publishing a satirical reprensenation of
Mohammed is equal to 'telling'(?) the entire world that all muslims are
terrorists, then - well.. then no good can ever come from this
discussion
not equal, not almost.. I'm not talking about the educated people, who
have brains.. but those people are rare.. most of the population of the
world will automatically associate islam with terrorism.. and that is
already the case btw!!!
3) as mentioned earlier, he is even depicted in mosques around the
world - if you want, here's a list of older depictions of the profet:
http://info2us.dk/muhammed/ (note: this is a mirror located in denmark,
but the original site is not danish)
ok, I even remember seeing some of these images.. you do have a point
there and it didn't even cross my mind.. but still, I think that depicting
the prophet in an activity like preaching is acceptable, as long as it's
respectful and people know that it is only for history, not for
iconography.. I mean, when I see someone praying to an image of Jesus or
kissing a cross.. I just think that they're far from the real thing, God
is above us all.. but anyways, that's another subject I don't want to get
into..
anyways, I understant that those drawings are also not there for
iconography, so you do have a point.. it stays that it's disrespectful...
When you think that some images, when you see a coca cola ad, there are
100s of psychologists that worked behind that single image just to get it
to your brain in a certain way...
tell me what this image sends as a message to anyone reading it (assuming
it's an ignorant person who knows nothing about islam) :
http://info2us.dk/muhammed/drawing.JPG
terrorists! if people beleive it's not true, don't worry, children who
will see these pictures will grow up with that idea (brainwashing the
people, as always.. same as what happened with wearing the hijab (the
veil), now everyone thinks a woman with the hijab is a woman who is
beaten
and has no human rights, etc... while it is the total opposite, and
noone
ever thought of it as the exact same of christan nuns...)
Trust me, if theer had been litte or no reaction, no dane would have
even remembered the drawings by now - if anything will make children in
the rest of the world think muslims are terrorists, its their reaction
to those drawings - nothing else.
on the contrary my friend... these pictures, plus another one, plus a text
about muslims.. plus those damn images about muslims burning the
embassies.. plus Ben Laden saying "in the name of Allah" and other
stupidities like this (burning embassy is stupid and was done by stupid
people who aren't following the islamic way), that's what gives that
impression... if no reaction was done, it would have been one more
subliminal mesage.. the next one would be bigger, and after 100 subliminal
message the little danish guy who never heard what "islam" is gets a
question from his son "dad, what is Islam", he thinks, thinks, and thinks
harder, and all he gets is blood, bomb, terror.. he answers "it's a
satanic cult that aims to destroy the world by killing as many innocents
as possible".. that's 100% sure the answer he'll give..
Problem is that.. I live it everyday here.. most of the people are already
like that... happens when I tell someone I'm muslim he would answer me
"damn, I though the borders were closed to such people"... or when I say
I'm moroccan, I got an answer like "how did you come here?" when I say by
plane, I got an answer like "ohh, do you have someplace where you leave
the camels when you get to the airport???".. what kind of stupidity is
that...
many people here think that "Morocco" is a brand of oranges simply because
moroccan oranges (which are 'the best') have a label on them 'Morocco' to
identify them as moroccan oranges (-> good oranges)...
so no, those drawings wouldn't do the harm I'm talking about.. but those
drawing added to the thousands of other little things (like the south park
thing as a simple example) add up to be very destructive for our
community...
Anyways, I won't debate on all this. The thing is that those caricatures
were out, official mulsim associations requested them to be removed and
excuses be sent to the islamic people.. the president of danemark
refused
to give us excuses, the newspaper that published those images also
refused
to remove them, and alot of other public companies supported the
1) the danish prime minister has no say in the matter - he did not print
them, he cannot do anything about other people printing them - it is
perfectly legal.
legality is not the question... there is probably no law against talking
about Satan, what about creating a channel that displays 100% subliminal
messages to incite people to enter a satanic cult... it's perfectly legal,
but then unethical...
+ you have to respect other people...
2) how exactly should the newspaper 'remove' them? - it's a printed
medium that has been distributed
well, not remove them, but accept his fault... not sure though about this
part of the story
3) the newspaper has appologised on several occasions, and the danish
prime minister has also said that he himself do not find the images 'in
good taste', but the simple fact is that he cannot appologise for
something he didn't do, and has no control over.
didn't know this part of the story... I guess false information is
everywhere then.. maybe you're the one who has the false info, maybe I'm
the one... I can't tell but from what I heard they refused to apologize
and that's because they said it's "freedome of speech" to show them...
although I though freedom of speech was something else...
Maybe the one that apologized was the original newspaper and the one that
refused to was the other newspaper that published them afterwards (not
sure if it was republished by a second danish newspaper though...)
newspaper!! This has no sense, especially when you hear a politician say
"bush is stupid for doing it this way" and he gives his excuses to the
USA
and leaves all political activities because he wasn't 'politically
correct'.. but for muslims, no way they give excuses.. The most shocking
part of all this for me was when I heard that France, Norway and Germany
published those same images in protest AGAINST muslims!!! they protest,
This is not in protest against muslims, it is in protest against the
violent reactions, burning the danish embassy is an act of war (if the
government organized it) or just goverment supported terrorism if they
wittingly allowed it to happen - the army was there, yet nothing was
done to stop it, so it's one of the above.
no I'm sorry but the first embassy that was burnt, the first terrorist
(not muslim) that took a gun and pointed it to the EU was a few days after
it was published again... I remember it perfectly.. burning the embassies
was today and yesterday.. 2 days before some guys took the EU embassy in
'hostage' and wrote 'Closed' on its door (which by the way on TV, they
said "they wrote insults and crap on the walls of the embassy", while in
fact it was 'Closed'.. I read arabic and I assure you I was shoked at
hearing the reporter and reading with my own eyes...(those are again the
brain washing I'm again talking about...)) and before that, it was a big
problem as france, norway and germany published these drawing in protest
and the big polemic between freedom of speech and freedom of cult, etc...
Also, government was not there, when there were there a lot of people were
injured and the government stopped them.. but they did nothing, I'm sure
it's not true! and it's not an act of war.. come on! it's a bunch of
uneducated, stupid, people who claim to be muslims and bring havor, and
yet they say that the government is organizing it... what the government
did in some countries was to stop their comercial transactions between the
involved contries (where the government supported the drawings)...
saying that it's 'freedom of speech' and they should be allowed to
publish
those images if they want.. I was really shoked to think people would
say
things like this!! because I though freedom of speech is to have the
freedom to say the truth without anyone forcing us to keep things
quiet...
now it became freedom of speech meaning you can lie and disrespect a
religion!!! Where is our freedom in this ???
Satirical drawings has nothing to do with lying - your freedom is to
ignoer us - odds are you would probably never have heard of the images,
unless other muslims had distributed them
I already explained why you can't just ignore them... + people are
exhausted of everything against muslims... your dignity is hurt... you
can't ignore someone insulting you.. maybe you can once, twice.. but not
if he does 24/7 during many centuries...
Anyways, it's been a huge hit to the muslim community, a lot of trouble
is
taking place everywhere especially in Palestine I think because they
just
can't handle any more humiliations...
By the way, did you ever hear muslims say something against other
religions ? We respect christians and jews.. there was never soemthing
you meen like calling christians 'godless animals' and the likes? - yes
I have - at least people who claim to be muslims.
WHAT THE FUCK ??? who ever said ?? those people are NOT muslims!!! as I
said earlier or in another email, we're the religion who respect the most
other religions, it is written in the Quran that Moise came and brought
God's teachings, then Jesus came and completed it, and that the Quran is
the completion of the other two books and no muslim can call himself
muslim without prior reading the other 2 books and respecting the other 2
religions to the exact same level as he respects Islam.. this is what
islam is about!! godless animals.. wtf...
humiliating for you that we ever released... wars were never done on
churches... When you see that some countries are happy to launch
missiles
on mosques at the hour where everyone is praying in the mosquee in order
to kill the maximum number of muslims, but muslims never attacked a
church
during war.. even terrorists (who are NOT muslims) never bombed a church
or anything like that... so why do other religions always have to attack
our religion ? Anyways.. just imagine if we released in the arabic world
This is not a case of one religion attacking another - it's images
printed by a privatly owned newspaper.
well.. don't want to start the topic.. but either the cartoonists are
christians, or jews.. if they don't have any religion.. then I someone
else in the chain most have! it was against muslims, coming from either
christians or jews...
images of Jesus/Mary in humiliating postitions and I don't want to give
any examples of such images that could be released.. what would the
other
Exept for maybe a few 'extremist' groups in USA, I can assure you that
no one else would have cared - especially danes, that's for sure - jesus
is often depicted in satirical contexts, and we're a protestant
christian country
it's not the exact same... most people who call themself christians don't
care, but those who call themself muslims have a huge respect for their
religion and for their prophet.. how many times did you read the Bible ?
how many times the average 'christian' has read the Bible ? most have
never even looked at it... I probably read more of it than most christians
around me... a muslim should read the whole Coran, and he should read it
enough to be able to recite it completly... if you take someone who is
religious enough to have read the whole Bible at least once, and you laugh
at Jesus and draw Jesus as a homosexual or something.. I'm sure he'll be
very much offended... if you tell him that's you'll pin it in school,
he'll be frustrated, and if he asked his teachers/principal to remove the
drawing because it's offending for him, and all he gets is "it's his
freedom of speech, he has the right to insult your religion".. I think
he'll be so frustrated, he'll go and remove it the pin/drawing himself
from the board.. and then the principal will fire him for vandalism...
that's the exact same thing that's happening... only here, TV came and
said that all christians are vandals...
countries say ? I don't think they'll ever say anything, they'll just
send
some missiles to the headquarters of the newspaper who released these
images... now imagine countries taking position and doing the same
claiming it's "freedom of speech"...
Anyways, I'm not a religious guy, I am indeed muslim, but I'd say muslim
of education and beliefs but not of actions.. I mean, I never prayed, I
never follow any of the rules or anything.. but one thing I can't stand,
is when people disrespect one of God's religions (no matter which
one)...
This is one of the fundamental differences between muslims (at least
many of them) and most of the rest of the world - we couldn't give a
rats ass about who thinks what about our beliefs or way of life - what
they think about it is their choice, and we would never dream about
forcing them to keep quite about it.
no, it is said in the Quran that whatever someone thinks, if he's in the
wrong path, you shouldn't interfere with him, you shouldn't try to
convince him of anything.. if he has to change, God will guide him... or
something similar.. so those extremists who are preaching and trying to
convert everyone or try to 'punish' those who act against peace... well,
they're probably in the wrong...
But that's not about what people think about us.. it's about respect, but
also, when you get insulted so many times, there's some time when you just
can't hold it anymore.. that's not muslims, that's human nature! (you're
saying the difference between muslims and the rest of the world... it's
not about muslims! it's about humans who are opressed by the rest of the
world because they are muslims! and that's the result of this opression...)
On that note, I'd like to say that of course I have no problem with
muslims who were insulted, they are allowed to be - they are allowed to
try the case in court, and to use any non-violent means they can think
of to try to influence the way people think and act - that's all fine.
What is not acceptable, is responding with violence - especially against
ordinary danes, who had nothing to do with the drawrings and their
publication.
against "ordinary danes who had nothing to do with it" or with the persons
directly involved, they had no right to use violent, that I agree with you!
Finally, I would like to add that I consider none of what I have said
'flaming' - I believe my post to be mostly factual, but if anyone should
dissagree, please note which subjects are not substanciated thouroughly
enough, and I will try to provide further documentation/background.
I agree with you, no flaming, only factual.. too bad you're also brain
washed :P j/k, seriously though, too bad most of the things are not
revealed, and too bad you don't know the whole story on muslims opressions
and all the killing muslims have suffered from Isreal and USA (and
others...)
This email/forward is intended to ask from you to go vote on this
website :
http://www.lemonde.fr/web/sondage/0,25-0,15-737075,0.html
it seems the 'Le monde' newspaper is having a poll to know if people
approve and understand the reaction of muslims (burning Danemark's
embassy
for example) or not...
I don't approve it, as it is against Islam to act this violently, but I
do
understand their reaction...
I don't want to start a flamewar, especially not on this subject, so I
don't want people to start answering this mail and flaming other's
opinions.. I would just want to have everyone's opinion on this, but I
don't want people to comment on other's opinion.. If I see someone say
something untrue or with whom I disagree, I will control myself and not
answer to avoid the flaming... (which means if I don't answer, it
doesn't
mean I agree with you :P). In any case, no matter what your choice is
and
what you think, it's the same for me as long as you say it in a
respectful
manner!!
Could everyone go vote on the website, it's important to everyone I
think!
The poll is :
Devant la polأ©mique suscitأ©e par la publication de caricatures
reprأ©sentant Mahomet et l'associant parfois au terrorisme, quelle est
votre rأ©action ?
'In front of' the polemic that was brought by the publication of the
caricatures representing Mahomet and sometimes associating it with
terrorism, what is your reaction ?
The choices are :
Vous comprenez l'indignation qu'elles suscitent parmi les musulmans .
== >
You understand the indignation that they brought amongst muslims
Vous la jugez abusive : il s'agit de simples caricatures == > You judge
them (muslims reactions) abusive : they're just simple caricatures
anyways.
Sans opinion == > Without opinion.
Thank you all and sorry for the off topic, but I really think it's
important!
KaKaRoTo
Objet: c'est tr?s important !!
Salam alaykoum wa rahmat Allah wa Barakatouhou
>>>>>>
Je vous transmets un message que je viens de recevoir :
Le journal LE MONDE vient de publier un sondage sur le
jugement de la publication des caricatures repr?sentant le
Proph?te Mohamed salla ALLAH alih wa sallam en l'associant au
terrorisme.
Participez vite pour basculer le sondage au bon choix, et
faites passer le mot au plus grand nombre de personnes.
*http://www.lemonde.fr/web/sondage/0,25-0,15-737075,0.html*
Si le lien ne fonctionne pas, faites un copier du lien et
coller le dans votre navigateur, je vous en remercie. Votre
voix compte !
Faites tourner ce message ? tous vos contacts, s'il vous plait
Devant la pol?mique suscit?e par la publication de caricatures
repr?sentant Mahomet et l'associant parfois au terrorisme,
quelle est votre r?action ?
*Vous comprenez l'indignation qu'elles suscitent parmi les
musulmans . 41.8 %
Vous la jugez abusive : il s'agit de simples caricatures .
56.6 %
Sans opinion . 1.6 %
Nombre de votants : 30763*
Que Dieu te r?compense par le paradis, Inch'Allah
R?cemment, au Danemark, un journal a lanc?
un concours sur lA meilleur caricature de NOTRE CHER PROPHETE Muhammed
(Paix
Et Benediction Soit Sur Lui).
En effet, 12 caricatures ont ?t? publi?es montrant le personnage du
proph?te
v?tu d'un chapeau pleins d'armes et d'explosifs, ou en train de faire la
priere d'une fa?on humiliante et pire encore !!!
Sachez mes freres et soeurs, que toutes les institutions publiques de la
soci?t? danoise ont soutenu ce journal suite ? l'appel lanc? par la
communaut? musulmane au Denmark pour arreter cette compagne contre
l'ISLAM.
Donc nous lan?ons un appel ? tout musulman jaloux pour sa religion, de
diffuser ce message et d'inciter son entourage au *BOYCOTT des produits
danois (laits assech?s :Nido, Anchor, beurre LaPark,....).*
N'oubliez pas que
nous allons rencontrer Le Prophete (Paix et Benediction Soit Sur Lui)
sur la
rivi?re de Al KAWTAR et pensez ? la r?ponse que nous allons donner.
Imaginez ?galement que votre m?re, ou votre soeur vient d'?tre insult?,
quelle sera votre r?action akhi./okhti? et Qu'aimes-tu le plus
akhi/okhti?
prefere-tu ta famille ? ton noble proph?te?
Que faire ??
Best regards
--
KaKaRoTo
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