Hi Volker,
I don’t agree with that, because: I believe the electricity sample I provided proves otherwise. My contract is with the electricity provider (the Internet provider), so I need to complain to them and they need to follow the chain. For a victim, to complain directly to the customer (not the operator), will need to know the data of the “abuser” which may be protected by GDPR. Customers sign a contract with the operator. The contract must have clear conditions (AUP) about the appropriate use of the network. If you act against that contract, the problem is with the operator, not victims. By the way, if an operator has a badly designed AUP, either they are doing a bad job, or they have *no interest* in acting against abuses. Regards, Jordi @jordipalet El 16/1/20 15:44, "anti-abuse-wg en nombre de Volker Greimann" <anti-abuse-wg-boun...@ripe.net en nombre de vgreim...@key-systems.net> escribió: Obviously every user should lock their doors / protect themselves against fraud. I am just saying that the ability of many service providers to curtail abuse of their system (without impacting legitimate uses) is very limited as it may not their customers doing the abusing and any targeted action against those customers themselvesd would be inappropriate and affect many legitimate users of their services. At what point should a network service provider remove privileges from a customer that is himself being abused but is technically unable to deal with it properly? Would the complaint not be better directed at that customer, not the provider, since they are the ones that can resolve this issue in a more targetted and appropriate manner? How does the service provider differentiate between a customer that is abusing vs one that is being abused? Deputising the service providers will not necessarily solve the problems, and possibly create many new ones. In the domain industry, we were required to provide an abuse contact, however the reports we get to that address usually deal with issues we cannot do much about other than pulling or deactivating the domain name, which is usually the nuclear option. So we spend our time forwarding abuse mails to our customers that the complainant should have sent to the customer directly. Best, volker Am 16.01.2020 um 15:16 schrieb Serge Droz via anti-abuse-wg: Hi Volker On 16/01/2020 15:03, Volker Greimann wrote: isn't making the world (and the internet) first and foremost a job of law enforcement agencies like the police and Europol? Law enforcement's job primarily is arresting criminals. And yes they do prevention. But you can't stop locking your door or walk by fight just ignoring it, because it's LEA's job. This is even more true on the internet, where CERT's have long been working together fighting cybercrime etc. While there obviously is an appeal to the notion of "The best problems are some one else's problem" my believe is we don't want to have an internet or a world, for that matter, where this is how things run. The internet is a bottom up thing, it is so cool because people follow protocols, that are not law. There was a time whn this wasn't a given: During the "Browser wars" different producer leveraged ambiguities in the HTML standard, and the end result was horrible. We don't want this. If we delegate the problem, we've already lost. Best Serge -- Volker A. Greimann General Counsel and Policy Manager KEY-SYSTEMS GMBH T: +49 6894 9396901 M: +49 6894 9396851 F: +49 6894 9396851 W: www.key-systems.net Key-Systems GmbH is a company registered at the local court of Saarbruecken, Germany with the registration no. HR B 18835 CEO: Alexander Siffrin Part of the CentralNic Group PLC (LON: CNIC) a company registered in England and Wales with company number 8576358. ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
