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Francis A. Boyle
Law Building
504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.
Champaign, IL 61820 USA
217-333-7954(voice)
217-244-1478(fax)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
-----Original Message-----
From: Boyle, Francis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 8:33 AM
To: Killeacle (E-mail)
Subject: NO RUSH TO WAR!/O'Reilly Factor/FOX/13Sept2001
Importance: High
SHOW: THE O'REILLY FACTOR (20:29)
September 13, 2001 Thursday
Transcript # 091303cb.256
SECTION: News; Domestic
LENGTH: 3973 words
HEADLINE: America Unites
How Should the U.S. Bring Terrorists to Justice?
GUESTS: Sam Huessini, Francis Boyle
BYLINE: Bill O'Reilly
BODY:
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
BE UPDATED.
O'REILLY: While most Americans are united in their support of President
Bush and the desire to bring Osama bin Laden and other terrorists to
justice, there are some differing voices.
Joining us now from Washington is Sam Husseini, the former spokesman for
the Arab Anti -- American Anti-Discrimination Committee, and from Urbana,
Illinois, is Francis Boyle, an international law professor at the
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign..........
....
O'REILLY: Cut his mike. All right, now, Mr. Boyle, Professor Boyle, let's
have a little bit more of a rational discussion here. That was absurd.
The United States now has to take action against certain segments in this
world who we know have been harbouring people like Osama bin Laden. That's
going to happen. How will you react to that?
FRANCIS BOYLE, LAW PROFESSOR: Well, first I think you have to look at the
law involved. Clearly what we have here, under United States domestic law
and statutes, is an act of international terrorism that should be treated
as such. It is not yet elevated to an act of war. For an act of war, we
need proof that a foreign state actually ordered or launched an attack upon
the United States of America. So far, we do not yet have that evidence. We
could...
O'REILLY: All right, now why are you, why are you, why are you taking this
position when you know forces have attacked the United States. Now, maybe
they don't have a country, but they are forces. They have attacked the
United States, all right? Without warning, without provocation. Civilian
targets. They've done everything that an act of war does.
So, I'm saying that because we live in a different world now, where borders
don't really matter, where terrorism is the weapon of choice, that you
would declare war -- if I were President Bush, I would declare war on any
hostile forces, notice those words, professor, hostile forces to the United
States. I would have a blanket declaration of war so I could go in and kill
those people. Would I be wrong?
BOYLE: Well, Bill, so far you'll note Congress has been unwilling to
declare war. And indeed, this matter is being debated right now. Right now,
it appears that what they are seeking is not a full declaration of war, but
only what we law professors call an imperfect declaration, which means a
limited use of military force under the War Powers Resolution of 1973.
Precisely for the problem that we don't know if any state was involved and
we still do not know who was responsible for this undoubted terrorist
attack upon the United States of America.
O'REILLY: All right, but we have the secretary of state saying that Osama
bin Laden now has been linked into and, you know, we don't have all the
intelligence information, as President Bush said today. He's not going to
give us, and he shouldn't, the people of America all the information that
they have. But when the secretary of state gets up and says, look, we know
this guy was involved to some extent, I believe him.
And he's a wanted man, professor. He's been wanted for eight years. The
Clinton administration didn't have the heart to get him and in the first
few months the Bush administration didn't either. We now know, and you just
heard the FBI agent say that Afghanistan has been involved for years
harbouring and training these kinds of people. Certainly, Afghanistan,
Syria, Libya, Iran, Iraq, those five countries, certainly have been hostile
to the United States and given safe harbour to these terrorists. That's a
fact.
BOYLE: Well, let me point out, the secretary of state was very careful in
the words he used. He said Osama bin Laden was a suspect. He did not accuse
him. And, again, under these circumstances...
O'REILLY: No, he didn't use the word suspect. He used another word.
BOYLE: The account I read in, just off the wire service, said suspect. But
let me continue my point. Under these circumstances, where we have 5,000
Americans dead and we could have many more Americans killed in a conflict,
we have to be very careful, Congress and the American people and the
president, in not to over-escalate the rhetoric, here.
We have to look at this very rationally. This is a democracy. We have a
right to see what the evidence is and proceed in a very slow and deliberate
manner.
O'REILLY: No, we don't. We do not, as a republic, we don't have the right
to see what the evidence is if the evidence is of a national security
situation, as you know.
Now, I'm trusting my government to do the right thing, here. I am trusting.
But I think it's beyond a doubt right now, beyond a reasonable doubt, which
is, as you know, a court of law standard, that there are at least five,
North Korea you could put in to, six states in the world that have
harboured continually these terrorists.
Now, we know that this was a well-coordinated effort. Our initial
intelligence shows that some of the people that have been arrested have
ties to Osama bin Laden. We know, as you just heard the FBI agent say, that
the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center was tied in to a guy who knew
bin Laden. So, bin Laden -- I agree with you, that you don't want to be a
hothead. You don't want to overreact. You don't want to lob a missile at
the pharmaceutical plant in the Sudan, which was terrible, and that was the
one good point, or fair point, that Mr. Husseini made, you don't want to do
that.
But, on the other hand, professor, I think Americans are rightful, are
right, to demand action against states that we know in the past have
harboured these individuals and there's a warrant out for Osama bin Laden's
arrest. So, if he is in Afghanistan, I would give that government a couple
of days to hand him over, and if they did not, I'd go in.
BOYLE: Well, again. The American people are right. We need to see the
evidence. I remember people saying a generation ago, during the Vietnam
war, I trusted my government. And I think people of my generation found out
that that was wrong. We needed more evidence.
O'REILLY: All right. Professor, let me stop you there, though. This is
another point that Mr. Husseini tried to make. Just because the United
States of America has made mistakes in the past, does not mean that we
cannot defend ourselves now.
This is a unique situation in history. We have now been attacked by forces
without borders, OK? We've been attacked. And it hasn't been a military
attack, it's been an attack on civilians. The reason, the sole reason a
federal government exists is to protect the people of the United States.
And as I said in my "Talking Points" memo, they haven't really done the
job, for political reasons.
But now's the time to correct those things. So, there's going to be a
reckoning, Professor. You know it's going to happen. I know it's going to
happen. And it's going to come down on Osama bin Laden first and maybe some
of these rouge states later. Will you support that action?
BOYLE: Before I support a war that will jeopardize the lives of tens of
thousands of our servicemen and women, I want to see the evidence that we
are relying on to justify this. So far, I do not see it. I see allegations.
I see innuendo. I see winks and I see nods, but I do not see the evidence
that you need under international law and the United States constitution so
far to go to war. Maybe that evidence will be there, but it is not there
now.
My recommendation to Congress is to slow down, let's see what develops and
let's see what this evidence is before we knowingly go out and not only
kill large numbers of people, perhaps in Afghanistan and other countries,
but undoubtedly in our own armed forces.
58,000 men of my generation will killed in Vietnam because of irresponsible
behavior by the Johnson administration rushing that Tonkin Gulf resolution
through Congress, exactly what we're seeing now. And we need to pull back
and stop and think and ask the hard questions and demand to see the
evidence first, before we march off to war.
O'REILLY: All right, so it's not enough that people arrested in the
bombings of the embassies in Africa testified in court that Osama bin Laden
was behind and financed and coordinated those bombings. That evidence is
not enough for you?
BOYLE: Well, Africa is a very is a very different story than what happened
in the World Trade Center.
O'REILLY: No, it's not. He's wanted, he's wanted in the United States for
the bombings of those two embassies. Is that evidence enough for you,
professor, for the United States to go in and get this man? Is it enough?
BOYLE: That, that matter was treated and handled as an act of international
terrorism in accordance with the normal laws and procedures of the United
States of America as a question of domestic and international law
enforcement. And I am suggesting that is the way we need to proceed here...
O'REILLY: Well, wait. You're dodging the question professor.
BOYLE: ... unless we have evidence that...
O'REILLY: Wait, professor. Professor. This is a no spin zone. Hold it. Hold
it. Even out in Urbana Champagne, the no spin zone rules. You're dodging
the question. There is an absolutely rock solid arrest warrant out for this
man. Evidence in court, testimony by people who did the bombings that this
man was behind it. Is that enough evidence for you to have the United
States go in and get him now? Is it enough?
BOYLE: The United States has been attempting to secure his extradition from
Afghanistan. I support...
O'REILLY: Yeah, that's long enough.
BOYLE: I support that approach as international...
O'REILLY: Come on already, I mean, eight years, we've been attempting to
extradite this guy. Now's the time to tell the Afghans you've got 48 hours
or 72 hours to turn him over. You don't turn him over, we're coming in and
getting him. You try to stop us, and you're toast. Enough is enough,
professor.
BOYLE: That's vigilantism. It is not what the United States of America is
supposed to stand for. We are supposed to stand...
O'REILLY: No, what that is is protecting the country from terrorists who
kill civilians.
BOYLE: ... for rule of law.
O'REILLY: It's not vigilantism.
BOYLE: We are supposed to stand for rule of law, and that is clearly
vigilantism. There is a Security Council, there is Congress, there are
procedures and there are laws, and they are there to protect all of us here
in the United States as well as...
O'REILLY: So, you're telling me...
BOYLE: ... as well as our servicemen and women. Look, Bill, if we
allegedly, as you put it, go in, you are not going in, I am not going in.
It's going to be young men and women serving in our armed forces...
O'REILLY: And that's their job. To protect us. But, professor, let me, you
know, what you're saying is, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold it. Hold it. Hold it.
Hold it.
B0YLE: ... with the constitution and the laws of the United States.
O'REILLY: We're not violating any laws here, professor. No one is going to
violate the law. There is going to be a state of war induced against
states, states, terroristic states, who have attacked us. And what you're
saying is, though, and correct me if I'm wrong, you're saying that even
though there is a legitimate warrant out for Osama bin Laden's arrest, and
even though most civilized nations would honor that warrant and turn him
over to us, extradite him to us, the vast majority of nations on earth
would do that, you still are opposed for the United States to demand that
the Taliban government arrest this man and turn him over? You are opposed
to that?
BOYLE: During the Gulf War, President Bush's father, who has far more
experience that the current president Bush, got a Security Council
resolution authorizing the United States of America to use force to expel
Iraq from Kuwait. Second, President Bush's father got a War Powers
Authorization Resolution from Congress that gave him the constitutional
authority to use military force to enforce that Security Council resolution.
What I'm calling for here is the same adherence to international law and
the United States constitution that the first President Bush adhered to in
dealing with Iraq.
O'REILLY: Well, you'll get that, professor. That's just a formality. There
-- nobody on Capitol Hill right now, they're not going to -- there's no
profile of courages up there anyway, usually. They're going to give
President Bush what he wants. If he wants a War Powers Act, they're going
to give it to him. He wants a declaration, they're going to give it to him.
BOYLE: Actually, they're arguing about it right now...
O'REILLY: They're going to give it to him. But I'm not interested in that,
because it's going to happen. It's going to happen.
BOYLE: The reports -- no, the reports I read was that this President Bush
initially asked for a blank check, and Congress balked because they had
been suckered once before...
O'REILLY: All right, I'm not -- speculation is not what I'm in -- all
right, professor. I don't want to speculate. I'm just going to say in my
opinion he's going to have the authority to go in and get Osama bin Laden
and his pals, wherever they are. He will get that authority, whether it
takes a day or a week, he'll get it. And once he gets it, now, that's what
I want to talk about here. Once he gets it, are you and others like you
going to say, oh, no, we shouldn't do this, even though we have proof of
the man's -- masterminded the bombings in Africa and the Cole,testimony in
Yemen, are you going to still say, even after the authority is granted by
Congress, which it will be, no, don't do it, let Afghanistan handle him?
Are you going to still do that, professor?
BOYLE: Second, like his father, his father also got authorization from the
United States, the United Nations Security Council under chapter seven of
the United Nations charter...
O'REILLY: Oh, you want to go to U.N. now? You want the U.N. involved now.
BOYLE: Is exactly what his father did...
O'REILLY: So what?
BOYLE: And that's exactly right.
O'REILLY: His father made a huge mistake by not taking out Sadam Hussein
when he could of.
BOYLE: His father adhered to the required procedures under the United
States constitution and the United Nations charter that is a treaty and the
supreme law of our land. I expect the current President Bush to do exactly
what his father did before he starts engaging in a massive military
campaign in Iraq or against other countries...
O'REILLY: All right, I don't know whether he's going to go -- I know he's
not going to let the U.N. dictate. He might go for a consensus. He's
already got it with Putin and all of our NATO allies, he's already go that.
Whether he goes -- I think it would be a mistake to let -- empowering the
U.N. in this situation.
BOYLE: Then why did his father do this?
O'REILLY: I'm going -- we're going to wrap this up with this. I'm going to
give my last summation and then you can give yours, I'll give you the last
word on it.
This is a fugitive we're dealing with here. He has now been tied in by U.S.
intelligence agencies, according to Attorney General Ashcroft and the
secretary of state, tied into this horrendous bombing here in New York. The
United States must make a response to this, and I am agreeing with you in a
sense, it can't be a knee-jerk. It's got to be done in a methodical way.
Congress will go along, they may debate it or whatever, but they will go
along in either a War Powers, special War Powers Act or a declaration of
war against forces hostile to the United States. Then they will go in and
they will take him. This man you're looking at on the TV screen is a dead
man. He should be a dead man. You don't do what he did and be allowed to
walk around this earth.
Now, I'm distressed, professor, by your reliance, reliance on the strict
letter of propriety, when we've got 10,000 people laying in the street
about 22 miles from me right now. I want deliberation. I want methodical
discipline, but I also want action. We know who this guy is. We know the
governments that are protecting him. We know the other rouge states that
have terrorist camps there. They all have to be dealt with, in my opinion.
I'll give you the last word.
BOYLE: Sure, I agree with you, Bill. He is a fugitive from justice and this
should be handled as a matter as other fugitives from justice of
international law enforcement. If indeed there is evidence that a foreign
state orchestrated and ordered an attack against the United States then
clearly that is an act of war that should be dealt with as such...
O'REILLY: What about harbouring?
BOYLE: Right now...
O'REILLY: Is harbouring an act of war?
BOYLE: In my opinion, no. And under the current circumstances, I don't see
it.
O'REILLY: All right, professor.
BOYLE: I think there is a distinction here.
O'REILLY: OK, all right, wrap it up, if you would.
BOYLE: I agree -- I agree that the -- if we go to war in a hasty manner
here, we could see thousands of U.S. military personnel being killed
without proper authorization by Congress or by the United Nations Security
Council.
O'REILLY: OK.
BOYLE: Our founding fathers decided that the most awesome decision we would
ever make would be to go to war, and we have to be very careful in making
that decision.
O'REILLY: All right, professor, I appreciate it very much. Thank you for
your point of view.
BOYLE: Thank you, Bill.
>Francis A. Boyle
>Law Building
>504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.
>Champaign, IL 61820 USA
>217-333-7954(voice)
>217-244-1478(fax)
><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
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