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Let me see if I'm clear on things: if one disagrees with the position on Palestine of the learned and studious "Marxist" scholar Mr Rolf Martens of Sweden by default of this stance this individual must be either (1) a servant of Zionist interests (2) (2) or an animal ?(!) Then again, perhaps a Mr Rolf Martens of Sweden is incapable of defending his position and therefore feels obliged to resort to ad hominen attacks to compensate? Or perhaps, my (David's) position is incongruent with the so-called 'dialectic materialist' religion of a Mr Rolf Martens of Sweden and hence unworthy of comment?. In the first instance Rolf is shying away from debate due to incompetence and in the second instance,his religion prevents him from commenting. In each case, his behaviour resembles that of really pathetic two year old. Ah -- but I hear a voice! Can you hear it too, Rolf? It's called, the voice of Reason. The voice is wispering something...Ah yes, it's says to tell you to allow your mind to open up. It's says to say to you that not every position that might differ from your own necessarily implies that the holder of the position is some sort of crackpot... It's also says that perhaps you'd be wise not be view every issue according to your 'dialectic materialist' religion; that in fact the great thinker Dr. Karl Marx DID NOT view all historical change as resulting (directly) from changes in the modes of production governing a society and that he DID NOT view all conditions in societies in (sweeping) general terms (if at all), as so- called dialectic materialist would have us believe. And once you stamp these points inside your thick skull, Rolf, you might be better able to analyze topics more objectively, and consequently grasp concepts that do NOT fit neatly into the 'dialectic materialist' religious handbook. You will then begin to understand that the irrational policies of the state of Israel are driven NOT by IMPERIALIST AMBITIONS but by (primarily) RELIGIOUS CONSIDERATIONS; that whatever rational effects result from these policies are for the most part incidental; That what drives West Bank settlers, with the complete backing of the Israeli government, to set up residence in the occupied territories at a great cost to the Israeli state's 'image' , at a great cost to the Israeli state's public purse, at a great cost to the Israeli state's economy (not to mention, at a cost to the American taxpayer), at a great cost to 'immigration and naturalization' policy of Israel and hence the population size of Israel (and therefore putting itself at an unfavorable disadvantage given the demographic situation in the middle east), not to mention the safety of Israeli citizens; that whatever gains the state of Israel realizes through this occupation DOES NOT come close offsetting it loses. And if you're still finding this difficult to grasp; if you're 'brainwashed- with-dialectical-materialist-B.S.!-of-a-head or your-dialectically- materialist-mush-of-a-brain is hesitant to compute the above info. into its thick cells; perhaps, after re-reading the piece above on reason (which I call 'my guide to stamping out religious doctrines'), you might then consider reading the books of the learned (now deceased) scholar, Israel Shahak on the subject. Perhaps, you might find his argument, which very influenced my own, more compelling. Yet, HE'S NOT A MARXIST !! So, you might again re- read my piece on Reason. Cheers from Canada, David O. Q. To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Copies to: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Rolf Martens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Ignorant(?) Jew-baiter #5, now on ANTINATO list [WWW.STOPNATO.ORG.UK] Date sent: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 18:16:12 +0200 Send reply to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > HTTP://WWW.STOPNATO.ORG.UK > --------------------------- > > Ignorant(?) Jew-baiter #5, now on ANTINATO list > [27.06.02] > > > Hello David O. Q. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > > You wrote, to the ANTINATO mailing list on Wed, 26 Jun 2002 > 15:52:23 -0400, subject "Re: To ignorant(?) Jew-baiter #1 > on Free Palestine list": > > >Rolf: > >I have to disagree. Zionism could be labeled a 20 century > >adaptation to Judaism. To label it a political movement > >would be to imply that there is essentially rational con- > >siderations driving the policies of the state of Israel > >(that is to say, that what drives Israeli 'foreign policy' > >relates primarily to imperialist ambitions). > ... > >David O. Q. > > I can only repeat what I wrote to Jew-baiter #1, that > people who write such things as you do either are agents > of Zionism engaging in that old standard trick of such of > trying to discredit support for the just cause of Free > Palestine by equating it with *anti-Semitism* (Jew-baiting) > or else, possibly, in fact are just as utterly ignorant of > some very basic facts as they make out to be. > > Can there be such animals in Canada (too)? > > You're adding yourself to the group of these writers, to > the Free Palestine list (in case you people[?] in fact are > different people and not the products of one and the same > person, for instance, which seems to be one possibility > too - the others are all US-based and perhaps someone > there could also get a Canadian account?): > > #1: "HnsomDevil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > (X-Yahoo-Profile: "ziohazard"), > > #2: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, who signs himself sometimes > as "Michael Von Shearer" (yes, actually, with a > capital "V" like that) and somentimes as just "m", > > #3: "amnehtt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> and > > #4: "bob luce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>. > > An interesting group(?) of writers. I suggest that others > keep an eye on stuff coming from them/you in the future > too, and watch out for possible traps in it. > > It cannot hurt to repeat one more time, I suppose, in case > ignorance *is* the problem in your case, that which I cal- > led "Some flowers-and-bees stuff on 'Israel', on Zionism > and on anti-Semitism". Follows below here. > > Rolf M. > Malmö, Sweden > > > SOME FLOWERS-AND-BEES STUFF ON "ISRAEL", ON > ZIONISM AND ON ANTI-SEMITISM > > Here are the quotes I promised you [Jew-baiter #1], with > information which I think is bery basic and relevant in > this context and whose correctness you will be able to > check on in various ways: > > [QUOTE, from a 1 May leaflet of mine, posted in translation > 01.05.2002 and later to the Free Palestine as 'UNITE! Info > #171en: "Rich" countries and "Israel"':] > > 1. WHY "ISRAEL" WAS CREATED, AND WHY IT'S STILL > SO IMPORTANT FOR ALL IMPERIALISTS TO SUPPORT > IT TO THE VERY LAST > > The racist state of "Israel", which now occupies Pa- > lestine, was created, in 1948, by a joint action of > the governments of all the "rich" states in the world, > in order to function as a military bastion of theirs, > in the strategically important region of the Middle > East, for the continued oppression and continued ex- > treme exploitation of all the poorer countries. > > The very "point" of that "state" from the begining on > was for it to constantly engage in aggression and > terror, not only against the vast majority of the > original inhabitants of Palestine but against all > other peoples in that region too. It was intended to > function as a killer instrument of the imperialists', > a particular scourge of theirs against the 200 mil- > lion Arabic-speaking people who live in or close to > the Middle East, a mad dog to perpetrate aggressive > war after aggressive war. > > This is what this very particular kind of state has > done too, earlier above all in 1948, 1956, 1967 and > 1982. And this is what it's once more doing today, in > early/mid-2002. Against the atrocities perpetrated by > it now, people are protesting everywhere. > > The imperialists with all their propaganda resources > are continuing to say what they have said in the last > 50 years and more, that "Israel" was created in order > "to offer protection for" believers in the Jewish > faith from that racist persecution which they have > been subjected to since centuries back and still are > being subjected to in many countries, and in particu- > lar from such genocide against them as was perpetra- > ted by the Nazis during World War II. > > This is another of the big lies of the imperialists. > The rulers of the "rich" countries in reality never > were against racist persecution, nor against genocide. > On the contrary, both of these things are an integral > part of the present social "order" in the world, that > of capitalism "developed into" imperialism. > ... > > [END OF QUOTE] > > > [QUOTE, from Sami, "eWilderness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, pos- > ting to Free Palestine list Fri, 21 Jun 2002 06:31:01 -0700, > subject "Re: PIC reports fake pro-Zionist e-mails":] > > I agree with Rolf. > > > Despite clear textual racist and adversarial incite- > ment embodied in "holy books," we MUST methodically > exclude specific faiths--or intellectually pathologi- > cal perception thereof--from the political formulas. > > > Not doing so leads us directly or indirectly into > sectarianism, and thus a vicious circle is perpetua- > ted. > > > We must be the ones who stop this ever-growing all- > consuming vicious sectarian circle by focusing on po- > litics and not religion. > > > eWilderness > > [END OF QUOTE] > > > [QUOTE, from posting to the Free Palestine list by nicho- > lasd108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, reproducing an article by > Nicole Solomon, on Sun, 23 Jun 2002 22:12:24 -0000, subject > "Fwd: Co-opting Solidarity: Privilege in the Palestine Soli- > darity Movement"; the whole article said to be on the website > http://www.onwardnewspaper.org/archives/2-2002/solomon.html:] > > > For instance, anti-Semitic propaganda by the "left" > creates an unsafe environment for Jewish radicals. > Where do white goy activists in the United States, at > a distinct racial/ethnic privilege over Jews and with > no understanding of the worldwide historical legacy of > anti-Jewish oppression, get off burning a star of > David, a traditional symbol of Judaism and Jewish > people, as occurred on April 22? What does that mean > to them? What does it mean to the media, the cops, > their fellow white goy protesters? Their fellow Arab > and Muslim protesters? Their fellow Jewish protes- > ters? > > Anti-Semitism can and will be exploited by pro-occupa- > tion forces. Anti-Semitic or anti-Jewish statements > play into the hands of Zionists, who rely on keeping > the lines between the state of Israel, current Israeli > policy, Judaism and Zionism as hazy as possible. It is > crucial for us to keep the distinctions between them > clear. A statement by Jews Against The Occupation > points out that "Judaism, a cultural and religious > identity, is not the same as Zionism, a political > movement. Criticisms of the state of Israel or the > idea of a Jewish state, whether put forth by Jews or > non-Jews, do not constitute anti-Semitism. Equating > Judaism and Zionism serves the Zionist agenda by pas- > sing off all criticisms of the Israeli State as "anti- > Jewish." White goyim who attempt to pass off anti- > Jewish statements as merely critiques of Israel also > contribute to this dynamic. > > [END OF QUOTE] > > * * * > > --------------------------- > ANTI-NATO INFORMATION LIST > > --------------------------- ANTI-NATO INFORMATION LIST ==^================================================================ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?a84x2u.bacIlu Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^================================================================
