Maybe the public should be informed by the organic vendors they are eating dead fish, dried clay, copper, sulfur, ground up poison roots,among other things, oh and don't forget the NATURAL cow, horse or chicken manure (e-coli) these plants or trees are being fed. As far as tasting better , that is full of the above! Tell'em Mo! Evan Milburn www.milburnorchards.com
--- On Tue, 7/21/09, Mo Tougas <m...@tougasfarm.com> wrote: From: Mo Tougas <m...@tougasfarm.com> Subject: Re: Apple-Crop: LA Times Re: organic To: "Apple-Crop" <apple-crop@virtualorchard.net> Date: Tuesday, July 21, 2009, 6:36 PM Dare I add this. What the article lacks is what the organic movement hopes the public never learns, and that is the fact that the movement has deliberately mislead, often times outright lied to the public to forward its financial goals. The public overwhelmingly believes that organic means either "not sprayed", "not sprayed with pesticides" , "not sprayed with toxic pesticides" or "not sprayed with anything toxic". Or that because it is "natural", it is benign. The organic industry has done nothing to right this misconception. I can't say that I blame them. Certainly if the truth were known, the advantage would be lost. Imagine if the average Joe or Mary spent a day pruning, or thinning in an orchard sprayed 2 days ago with sulfur or better yet, lime sulfur. Perhaps a reporter or two should be encouraged to do so. Pot stirred. Mo Tougas Tougas Family Farm Northborough, MA On Jul 21, 2009, at 5:06 PM, Dave Rosenberger wrote: Sorry, Alex, but all conventional pesticides produced in the past three decades have a MUCH shorter half-life than copper which is approved for organic. Also, I agree that organic farming is much easier in desert climates. However, it appears to me that western organic growers (and conventional farmers as well) have been and continue to be largely dependent on federally subsidized and/or state-funded water systems. The water management systems in western irrigated agriculture may have had less environmental impact that the wide-spread use of DDT from the 1940's through the 1960's, but it would be interesting to know the comparative environmental costs of the two systems. Pesticides that were developed in the past two decades have relatively short residual life-spans or half-lives. The water management systems used to produce the vast amounts of food that come from western irrigated farmland continue to drain water flows that formerly maintained wild salmon populations and other aspects of healthy stream ecology. So which system is ultimately more damaging if the ideal is to maintain healthy natural systems? Flavor comparisons are very difficult because everyone's preferences are different. I certainly agree that produce in chain-store retail outlets often lacks flavor, but in my opinion, that fact has little to do with organic vs. non-organic. It has a lot more to do with which cultivars and selections will hold up to our long-distance and impersonal food handling systems. Finally, I'll repeat my two main arguments against organic: First, lists of what is acceptable and what is not acceptable for organic production have evolved from a mish-mash of nonscientific tradition and folklore with little or no scientific basis for those decisions. Second, organic foods generally are not available to those in the lower socio-economic quadrant of our society because it costs too much. The constraints on organic agriculture (perhaps with the exception of corporate farms in desert climates) almost guarantee that organic food will be more expensive because production costs are higher and/or productivity per acre is lower. (I know that higher cost and/or lower productivity is not always the case for organic ag, but it is still largely true. Therefore, don't bother replying with the examples of the exceptions!) Everyone has a right to pay more for the food of their choice if they can afford it, just as everyone has a right to drive a gas-guzzling Hummer if they can afford that. However, I detect similar levels of socio-economic arrogance and an attitude of "I don't want to know the truth about real environmental costs" among those who swear by organic foods and those who drive Hummers. I'll support everyone's right to choose, but I object when proponents of organic foods and/or Hummers suggest that the whole world would be better if we all subscribed to those activities. I have a mixed reaction to this article. This article almost reads as if it says "the world isn't black and white, so forget organics". That seems rather short sighted. The truth is that organic fruits and veggies are not only better for your health, but they're also better for the environment. The organic pesticides have a much shorter half-life. The truth is also that generally, organic fruits and vegetables have better flavor. Walk into a safeway and try it out on the apples, it never fails. But things aren't so easy at farmers markets and roadside fruit stands. It's also true that there are small scale non-organic farmers that really grow outstanding fruits, and me, personally, even though I am a die-hard organic fruit buyer, I do lower my standards to accommodate them. I will not walk away from delicious moorpark apricots if they're not certified organic, We have many local growers that are not certified, but make an extra effort to use as little pesticide as possible, and they should not be punished by the consumer. My orchard also has the "sandy nutrient poor soil" that the article uses as an example, and yes, even though I try to be organic on the pesticides, I complement organic manure and fish emulsion with ammonium nitrate and potassium nitrate whenever a tree shows major nitrogen deficiencies. I don't sell my produce, but if I did, I'd probably give up the chemical fertilizer because organic fruit commends a higher price. With that being said, I will walk away from the tasteless non-organic fruits and vegetables at the grocery store. They're disgusting, might as well sell cardboard. But when I go to a health food store that sells organic produce, the difference is striking: the organic produce is so much better it's not even in the same league. So yes, there it is definitely true that organic tastes way better! So just because the world isn't black and white, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. it's not an "either/or" situation, organic is in fact better, but it's also about making exceptions. Rules about what to do or not to do don't serve anyone well. Humans are given brains for a reason: to use them and not be on automatic pilot operating by some rules like a computer program: consumers need to open their eyes, and make decisions case by case, especially at the farmer's market, because every vendor, every person, and every day is unique. Here in the West, organic farming isn't really so hard. But on the East coast, there are so many bugs that it makes it almost impractical to be organic lest the consumer is willing to eat ugly looking fruit. In my opinion, therein lies the problem: we are turning into a plastic society, everything has to be antiseptic and perfect looking. And that's the main reason I probably will never sell any of my fruit from my 200 tree orchard. I know people who threw in the towel because they got so fed up to see people walk away from incredibly good tasting but not perfect looking fruit to buy the bland fruits just because they're big and pretty. To me, an oddly shaped, heavily ribbed, russeted apple is a delight to the eyes, and I can't wait to sink my teeth into it. Another great example: lately, I've been eating a nice crop of Espagne pears, a French Summer pear that "blets" like a medlar, a.k.a. turns brown and mushy when ripe, but the brown mush is an incredible delight to the senses, like pie filling, like a nectar of the Gods, a cross in between a medjool date and a pear. Do you think I can easily find an American out there who'd be willing to eat that? Nope, they prefer their tasteless cardboardy bartlett pears, except maybe the chefs are upscale restaurants, who serve a more open minded clientele. So let the people who are on automatic pilot go and buy their produce at safeway, the rest of us can go and delight in our ugly, russeted, scabby but scromtuously delicious fruit, organic is prefferable, especially if you don't care what the fruit looks like, but go ahead and cheat a little. :) From: "Smith, Tim" <smit...@wsu.edu> To: Apple-Crop <apple-crop@virtualorchard.net> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 10:53:14 AM Subject: Apple-Crop: LA Times Re: organic This reporter has a fresh outlook. http://www.latimes.com/features/food/la-fo-calcook1-2009jul01,0,2885942.story Timothy J. Smith WSU Extension -- ************************************************************** Dave Rosenberger Professor of Plant Pathology Office: 845-691-7231 Cornell University's Hudson Valley Lab Fax: 845-691-2719 P.O. Box 727, Highland, NY 12528 Cell: 845-594-3060 http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/pp/faculty/rosenberger/
