Do we have any examples of individuals who've come forward and claim to have been harmed by the current policy requirements? Or is this all hypothetical?
-Scott On Mon, Apr 14, 2025 at 2:48 PM Mohibul Mahmud <[email protected]> wrote: > Hello all, > > > > Thank you for the engaging and thoughtful discussion. I'm Mohibul, a > former ARIN Meeting Fellow, and I'd like to contribute to this important > conversation. > > > > I echo the concerns raised about the potential barriers individuals face > when seeking Internet number resources from ARIN. As Jordi's example of > Spain highlights, the costs and bureaucratic hurdles associated with > establishing a sole proprietorship can disproportionately affect > individuals in some ARIN-region countries, creating a significant disparity > compared to places like the U.S. and Canada. > > > > I also acknowledge Fernando's point about the operational challenges of > individuals securing BGP-capable residential connections. However, I'm > concerned that this might cause us to overlook the needs of enthusiasts and > small-scale innovators who could greatly benefit from direct access to IPv6 > resources for experimentation, personal projects, and technical learning. > > > > While I understand John's explanation regarding the public nature of > Internet resource management, I believe there may be room for a more > flexible approach. Could ARIN explore a policy path that allows individuals > to request limited resources (such as an IPv6 /48 or /56) under a > simplified, non-commercial framework? This framework could include specific > use-case declarations and operational constraints. For example, has ARIN > considered alternative models, such as RIPE NCC's approach to individual > memberships, and what lessons might be learned from those? > > > > This approach could address the discrimination concerns raised, promote > broader participation and education within our community, and allow ARIN to > gather data on this specific demand. > > > > I believe this is an opportunity to balance the need for responsible > resource management with the goal of empowering a wider range of > individuals to contribute to the Internet's future. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Mohibul > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 9, 2025 at 4:04 AM <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Send ARIN-PPML mailing list submissions to >> [email protected] >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> [email protected] >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> [email protected] >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of ARIN-PPML digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: distributing resources for individuals >> ([email protected]) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2025 10:03:59 +0200 >> From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals >> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Hi Fernando, >> >> I don?t have the dat, but I assume It is inexpensive in US and Canada, >> even if you don?t do business. >> >> So for an individual, not willing to have any business, who wants to have >> IPv6 multihoming for its home and run BPG (or have BGP running by a >> provider that offer him two links, two diverse paths, etc.), is also so >> inexpensive? Does it means presenting monthly or quarterly tax >> declarations? Does it means paying any recurrent tax or social security (or >> similar) fee? >> >> In Spain for example, unless I?m wrong, the different ways to become a >> self-employed (or even a sole-proprietorship corporation), means I need to >> present quarterly tax/VAT reports, yearly ones, pay monthly fees for social >> security (250-300 euros minimum per month), etc., etc., So really not >> inexpensive. And this is even if you don?t have actual business! If you >> don?t present those declarations, you will be fined. I?m guessing (not a >> conversation to have here, but in LACNIC), it may be similar in some LACNIC >> serviced countries. >> >> Any my question now is if ARIN has ensured that this is the same >> situation in other countries in the service region, because it any country >> has not similar inexpensive and bureaucratic-less means of becoming a >> sole-proprietorship, then it is a problem and as said, I will consider it a >> discrimination. >> >> Moreover, law in any country can change, so having this requirement, it >> means ARIN policies/membership is too dependent on law changes, which I >> don?t think is a good and safe way. >> >> Regards, >> Jordi >> >> @jordipalet >> >> >> > El 8 abr 2025, a las 20:06, Fernando Frediani <[email protected]> >> escribi?: >> > >> > Hi Jordi >> > >> > The eventual cost for it, even in the Latin America Region for >> comparison, is negligible, since this model of doing business by yourself >> is normally very simplified. Additionally whoever is in need of resources >> for various usages may already have some type of operation with income or >> gains that justify this minimal spending to request resources in this legal >> model mentioned. >> > >> > Although I see a point in what you say, I don't think there is a >> pressuring demand of individuals willing to do this and not being able due >> that. >> > >> > Yes the point about individuals willing to have their own space >> allocation is valid, but there are several operational challenges that >> overcome any legal/bureaucratic ones in my view. Ex: getting a residential >> broadband connection that establishes a BGP session with the user. >> > >> > Fernando >> > >> > On 08/04/2025 14:55, jordi.palet--- via ARIN-PPML wrote: >> >> Hi John, >> >> >> >> I fully understand your point, however, this is highly depending on >> each country regulation, in the case of ARIN it may be simpler (I think >> much less countries than for example in LACNIC or APNIC) and laws, or the >> way you legalize ?the business? is highly dependent even on possible >> changes, which may affect their relationship (even risk of cancelation of >> relationship) with the RIR. >> >> >> >> Moreover, it means extra cost. Maybe that cost in US and Canada is >> negligible, but this is subjective, and subjected to changes, subjected to >> different countries, etc. I don?t think it is logic for a RIR to depend on >> so many external factors. >> >> >> >> Also this is excluding an individual not willing to have a business, >> but willing to have multihoming with IPv6, with requires IPv6 PI, in >> his/her home. Why we want/need to exclude that? So in this case, he/she >> will be actually forced achieve the sole proprietorship. As said, in US and >> Canada may be si just a declaration, but not in many other countries. Is >> not that enforcing to circumvent the rules? Is that making any sense if you >> can actually do it legally? I don?t think so, is only adding bureaucracy >> and cost, which again is different in different countries, so creates a >> discrimination. >> >> >> >> We also need to understand that those individuals that decide to >> directly to connect to Internet and as you said ?present them publicly", >> will only be able to do so via actual operators that provide them links >> with BGP, so that already ensures the operational coordination. In the end >> is the same for any smaller ISP, the overall majority of them don?t get in >> touch with those hundred thousand global operators, but only with their >> directly connected carriers, and anyway, they are engaged in public >> activities. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Jordi >> >> >> >> @jordipalet >> >> >> >> >> >>> El 8 abr 2025, a las 19:26, John Curran <[email protected]> <mailto: >> [email protected]> escribi?: >> >>> >> >>> Jordi ? >> >>> >> >>> I note that individuals are private entities, whereas those who >> choose to participate in the Internet?s infrastructure are engaging in >> activities that are fundamentally public in nature. That is, participation >> carries the potential need for operational coordination with any of over >> one hundred thousand infrastructure operators globally ? in effect, making >> it a public activity. >> >>> >> >>> ARIN requires natural persons to present themselves publicly in order >> to hold rights to number resources. While this can be accomplished through >> the formation of a business, it is also readily achievable ? as Bill Herrin >> noted ? in many countries via a declaration of sole proprietorship, sole >> trader status, or similar constructs. This is not a circumvention of the >> ?organizations only? principle, but rather an acknowledgment that the >> resource holder understands they are engaging in inherently public >> activity, even if not conducting business per se. >> >>> >> >>> Thanks, >> >>> /John >> >>> >> >>> John Curran >> >>> President and CEO >> >>> American Registry for Internet Numbers >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> On Apr 8, 2025, at 12:00?PM, jordi.palet--- via ARIN-PPML < >> [email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> The problem/difference is that: >> >>>> 1) Not all the countries in LAC will have the same legal situation >> that US and Canada that seems make it very easy to bypass the >> ?organizations only?. >> >>>> 2) It many countries it may mean extra artificial cost. >> >>>> >> >>>> Setting up ?artificial barriers? to avoid individuals to have >> resources, is not only discriminatory, is also silly, because they can be >> bypassed with small or no cost in some countries, but bigger cost in other >> countries. No sense. Also that means we avoid the registries having a few >> extra members (note that I don?t think it will be a lot, but we should >> facilitate it, instead of try to avoid it). >> >>>> >> >>>> The justification is a different problem, and this is handled by the >> initial allocation/assignment policy, not part of this dicussion. Obviously >> a small business with only a single site, will ask a /48 and if they need >> more they will need to do a full justification (just an example). >> >>>> >> >>>> Regards, >> >>>> Jordi >> >>>> >> >>>> @jordipalet >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>> El 8 abr 2025, a las 17:13, Fernando Frediani <[email protected]> >> <mailto:[email protected]> escribi?: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Therefore it is the same in LACNIC which works pretty much similar >> to what Bill described for some jurisdictions. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> But more important then this bureaucracy is that whoever is >> requesting the resources be able to justify the need for them, even for >> IPv6-only which is not scarce. Base should be able to justify the usage on >> some operation. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Fernando >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On 08/04/2025 11:42, jordi.palet--- via ARIN-PPML wrote: >> >>>>>> Hi Bill, >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Yes, is the same in the EU (at least in Spain), when you have a >> self-employed, tax declaration is mixed. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> The only issue is that even if you have no business, you need to >> pay a monthly fee (social security, VAT declaration every 3 months, even if >> no activity, etc.) for keeping up the status of self-employed. Not sure if >> in US and Canada is the same. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Creating a corporation like the ?sloe proprietorship? that you >> mention, even if the cost is very low, still means that you need to do >> yearly declarations, etc. Again not sure if in US and Canada is the same. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> So I feel that this way in ARIN (and LACNIC) is not good for >> individuals, because it adds additional cost and burden that is >> discriminatory. Specially because in other countries (Caribbean) it may be >> not so easy, and this is the same in LACNIC that has more countries, which >> may have much different regulations, etc. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> The question here is *if* ARIN allowed (before) individuals to get >> resources, why it changed? it seems to be a step backwards, and decreasing >> competitiveness o >> >>>>>> self-employee and in fact small-medium business. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Tks! >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Regards, >> >>>>>> Jordi >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> @jordipalet >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> El 8 abr 2025, a las 15:57, William Herrin <[email protected]> >> <mailto:[email protected]> escribi?: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 8, 2025 at 2:01?AM jordi.palet--- via ARIN-PPML >> >>>>>>> <[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]> wrote: >> >>>>>>>> I?m trying to understand if is possible in ARIN for both, a >> natural person with >> >>>>>>>> an economic activity (not sure if this is also call >> self-employment in all the >> >>>>>>>> ARIN service countries) and a natural person for its own >> ?private? life, to obtain resources. >> >>>>>>> Hi Jordi, >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> ARIN no longer contracts with natural persons, only businesses. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> However, in the U.S. and Canada (I'm not sure about the Caribbean) >> >>>>>>> it's a trivial matter to establish a "sole proprietorship." Some >> >>>>>>> states don't even require registration; you simply declare it. In >> >>>>>>> others it requires filling out a form and paying a small fee. In >> both >> >>>>>>> cases, the individual's personal and business finances are mixed >> >>>>>>> together; there are no separate taxes or accounting or anything >> like >> >>>>>>> that. The sole proprietorship is a business which can contract >> with >> >>>>>>> ARIN and acquire IP addresses. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Look up AS11875 for an example of how this works. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Regards, >> >>>>>>> Bill Herrin >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> -- >> >>>>>>> William Herrin >> >>>>>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> >>>>>>> https://bill.herrin.us/ >> >>>>>> ********************************************** >> >>>>>> IPv4 is over >> >>>>>> Are you ready for the new Internet ? >> >>>>>> http://www.theipv6company.com <http://www.theipv6company.com/> >> >>>>>> The IPv6 Company >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> This electronic message contains information which may be >> privileged or confidential. 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