A friend of mine who had read our discussions on the Taxonomy of Vedic Occupational Orders said that you were thinking of souls being equal (as described in some scriptures) as well and so you wrote the following.
"There is no difference between you and me."
Hoping that you having a great vacation!
Bidyout
BidyutExcellent research on Varna. It remains for me only to congratulate you for your punditry.Bhuban
Bhuban:
"I wrote back, he admitted that it was a mistake and gave me the correct reference. " - this is a diplomatic way to say that Umesh does not know much and he is here to learn just like some other Assamese :)
"There is no difference between you and me." - why did you say so?
"I am not in a position to argue whether varna means the same thing as caste." - you don't have to argue my friend but you would need to open the dictionary/scripture and look for the varna usages (some of the usages are listed below).
"You may feel free to begin an academic argument." - are you saying so fearing some will argue exhibiting nonacademic behaviour? If so that is good observation! Thank you! I have already noticed ONE ASSamese :)
Very well Bhuban,
sometimes the words get mispronounced - sometimes the words may also mapped into completely different meanings. The word "nun" is a unique example. North India and some parts of Assam "nun" equals salt (NaCl) but in some parts of Assam it appears that they do not get the taste of salt for "nun" :)
Anyway Bhuban, you may consider taking the following list of "varna" usages in Sanskrit to an academician if you go arguing - this may help.
Bidyut
Some usages of varna in Sanskrit:
SB = Srimad Bhagavad (Geeta is a substance of Srimad Bhagavad)
varna - colors
varna-sankarah - unwanted population
varna-asrama - the system of eight social orders; SB 4.14.18
varna - of the principles of the four occupational orders of society; SB 10.74.35
tri-varna - consisting of three modes (goodness, passion and ignorance); SB 11.3.16
varna - having complexions
varna-asrama - the Vedic system of social and occupational divisions; SB 11.10.1
pita-varǹ£a - the color yellow
krisna-varna - blackish color
tara varna - Her bodily complexion
bhava-varna - the luster of transcendental ecstasy
citra-varna - printed with varieties of colors
varna-matra - only the color
gaura-varna - having a golden or fair complexion
syamala-varna - having a blackish complexion
syama-varna - of blackish hue
rakta-varna dhari' - assuming a reddish color
pita-varna dhari' - assuming the color yellow
pita-varna - yellowish color
cari varna-asrami - followers of the four social and spiritual orders of life; CC Madhya 22.26
varna-dvayi - the two syllables; CC Antya 1.99
varna-dvayi - the two syllables; CC Antya 1.120
pita-varna ha-ila - became yellowish
varna - bodily complexion; CC Antya 15.64
On 10/10/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:BidyutYou have obviously become uncharitable to Umesh. Umesh stated in this very net that his father was engaged in fighting against casteism in India on the basis of support from religious text. He then mentioned the verse and chapter from the Geeta. I checked and found it wrong. I wrote back, he admitted that it was a mistake and gave me the correct reference.Now, I am not in a position to argue whether varna means the same thing as caste. You may feel free to begin an academic argument. I take your point. But would not this amount to an unfruitful pursuit?Bhuban
On 10/10/05, Bidyut Kakati < [EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
- To my observation, Umesh is not knowledgeable on Vedic scriptures, he is like other Assamese that is why he is here :)
- Varna was not equal to Caste during Vedic age
- Krishna said in Geeta one gets Varnas according to his/her individual suitability to provide a particular service - this is true (not caste by birth).
- For example Parashar, Byash and Viswamitra did not have Brahmin parents (Manusamhita talks how they become Brahman). Similarly, Parasuram was not born to Kshyatriya parents.
- There are differences between Bhuban and me (I do not work in the same discipline like he does meaning I have a different Varna)
Bidyut
On 10/10/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:In a message dated 10/10/2005 21:57:51 GMT Daylight Time, BBaruah writes:BidyutThere is no difference between you and me. What I said was on the basis of the Geeta. There Krishna said that he created the Varnas according to an individual's suitability to provide a particular service. I do not have a copy of the Geeta with me now. I myself didn't know about it; Umesh sent it to me on request.Umesh, I am sure, will oblige if requested.The cases cited prove the point. Of course the original idea misfired at the end.BhubanOn 10/9/05, Bidyut Kakati <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
Bhubon and Maiki:
What Geeta talks is not same as Caste today, because caste today is by birth. Geeta did not talk of by birth but by virtue.
For example Parashar, Byash and Viswamitra did not have Brahmin parents (Manusamhita talks how they become Brahman). Similarly, Parasuram was not born to Kshyatriya parents.
So it was a wrong interpretation to say " God created the caste system" - if you compare with today's cast system.
My two cents :)
On 10/9/05, mc mahant < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Bhubon Kakaideo,
YOU REPLY AS A GOOD IMPARTIAL INTELLECTUAL SHOULD DO--ALL THE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH.
We are proud to be your fellow Namti children and maybe being taught by the same great Khagen Barboruah.
mm
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Assam] Rediff: US lawmakers flay India for human rights abuse
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 02:11:04 EDT
I think I can attempt to answer Mike's basic questions at least partially.
Dalit and Untouchables are not words to be found in the Hindu scriptures. The Geeta, however, mentions that God created the caste system (Varnas) according to an individual's ability to perform a job satisfactorily. It is like a strong man being asked to carry a heavy bundle and a person good at maths being asked to do accountancy. The concept of dignity of labour did not develop in India and the stratification of the society based on one's profession was the result. The learned man was respected while the person cleaning the toilet was looked down upon. Since the sons and daughters continued to do what their parents did, an entire community began either to be worshipped or looked down upon. Today the so-called Dalits have formed powerful organisations and the internet will provide you an wealth of knowledge on the subject.
The learned Manu, the Hindu law-giver, has nothing to do with untouchability. He has, however, been much reviled for ill-treating Hindu women. I suppose the poor man was stating the law as it then stood.
In Assam the society was grouped on different lines. There were no barbers; in the villages people helped each other. There were no toilet cleaners as people defecated in the open fields. There are people in India who help in the burial process (I forget what they are called, I understand there are many of them in the burning ghats of Benares). In Assam villagers did not require such help. Assamese women made their own clothes; so there were no low-class weavers or tailors in our society. Today of course things are changing.
Muslim rulers at first tried to convert the people but it was a formidable task. They gave up. The caste system ultimately survived even during the Mughal rule.
It is not that untouchability was completely absent in Assam but its practice was not as bad as in the rest of India. What is worst is the psychosis that the caste system has created in the minds of people. More on that at another opportunityBhuban
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