< Sorry for my late reply. I am working in Offshore Oil & Gas production
platform. I am working for Instrumentation and Control Engineering discipline.
I have to work 12 hours and more in a day with no weekly off. Hence I could not
write to you in time and again sorry for the delay. As I wrote earlier, I will
be in India from 13th April to 9th May. You can contact me on 09842123626 at
India. Or I will contact you. A direct discussion will be always better than
writing details.>
Dear Mr. Ponraj,
Welcome to the world of Water VIA Instrumentation,Controls,SCADA.I travelled
the same way from the days when Transistor was just being marketed.
12 Hr daysx7 days-you can survive. It will all pay rich -later.
Realization that trees/grass/ people/cattle/birds/fish/reptiles/bacteria -all
have to live happily in synergy on this limited size sphere,and water is the
greatest contributor, we all should be thinking most of our available time --to
find/devise ways to conserve Nature's recycled/purified/distilled water(from
rain,fog,snow,hail) - and make the best use of it.
I keep posting simple observations in Q&A form for viewers /bloggers to think
and conclude on their own:
#1 Are any of our rivers discharging any water to sea-when much land remain
perched? If they are -we are losers.
#2 What are our long term plans for storing -and utilizing- every drop of water
nature pours down on us?
#3 How did the Dutch convert the thousand meandering channels at the Rhine
Delta into a land of milk and honey and flowers--with the best use of
windpower and channelized irrigation water.
#4 How did Lenin utilize all the mobilized manpower and Diesel Power in
1918--by connecting all the rivers and lakes and depressions to make the
backbones of cheap waterway transport-the Volga-Don Canal,The Moscow-North Sea
Ship Canal and scores of others.
#5 How 2000 yrs back the Chinese Emperor sitting at Cool Dry Beijing ensure
grain movements from the lush Yangtse Delta till this day--by making them dig
the Grand Canal.#6 Are we thinking on the plight of of Riparian
communities/regions/civilizations?
Thinkers ought to Learn and tell their people-- how to build a great future:
*Free all regions to fend for themselves-not try holding any by force.
*Realize Delhi has no monopoly on anything intellectual.
*Think Globally-- and act Locally.
We ought to quantify /visualize allow participated criticisms on all plans for
Global Engineering --utilizing the great democratic equalizer-the Internet if
not the motivated/manipulable "Fourth Pillar--the Press".
Shall love to participate in your thoughts.Everybody Should.
Best
MM
Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 18:18:41 +0100From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: RE: [Assam]
[WaterWatch] Re: Dr Kalam's obsession with DIVERSION of RIVERSTo: [EMAIL
PROTECTED]
Respected Sir,
You are absolutely right, no source and no sink system can not work.
In the proposed concept there will be two waterways. One will be a massive
Balancing waterway of 200 meters width and 25 meters depth. Second will be a
small Smart waterway of 100 meter width and 10 meter depth.
Balancing waterway is a massive dam. But it is also spread along the entire
length. This will absorb most of the flood waters. With 25 meters depth its
capacity is massive. At the mentioned height of 1000 ft from MSL (For Southern
and Central waterway) it is cutting across the tributaries of the rivers and
not the main river. The water handled (water flowing through) by the
tributaries is small compared to the main river. Because the balancing waterway
cut across the tributaries (where the quantity of water is small) it will
handle the water that is flowing through the tributaries.
To calculate whether the waterway will be able to handle the flood water of the
tributary, a computer simulation was made with the worse scenario. It was found
out that velocity of water will be 8 meters per sec. 2 meters per sec will be
the acceptable flow. The excess water will be allowed to pass to the same
tributary to the main river if the flow is more. This is how it will handle the
flood. Please understand this, then the rest will become easy. A direct
discussion will be better on this issue.
The capacity of the Southern waterway(Refer to www.nationalwaterways.com ) will
be 875TMC. Assuming it can fill 3 times in a year it will have 2625 TMC water
for the whole year. This is the additional water we get from the flood. This
flood water is available for use now.
Next to the Balancing waterway is the Smart waterway running parallel to the
Balancing waterway. This water will be always available for different purposes,
mainly for transport by waterway.
There will be links between the two waterways throughout the length. There will
be no flow (No flow on either direction) at Smart waterway. (No source no sink)
This will receive the water from the Balancing waterway, mostly where the
consumption is, along its length.
There can be times when Balancing waterway is empty or low water level. But
there will be a water level of 10 meters always available on Smart waterway.
India gets all its water from the two monsoons. Available water by rain is
received too much and too quick and that is the reason for Flood and latter,
drought. With the growing need for water in India we need to find a solution
and I am sure You will play a vital role.
NOTE: Sorry for my late reply. I am working in Offshore Oil & Gas production
platform. I am working for Instrumentation and Control Engineering discipline.
I have to work 12 hours and more in a day with no weekly off. Hence I could not
write to you in time and again sorry for the delay. As I wrote earlier, I will
be in India from 13th April to 9th May. You can contact me on 09842123626 at
India. Or I will contact you. A direct discussion will be always better than
writing details.
G.Ponraj, USSC, ADMA OPCO, P BOX 303, ABUDHABI,UAE.
05/04/2007
(Please post it in Waterwatch)mc mahant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
<proposed 'two-way-flow' canal on a contour map of the terrains where it is
expected to hold and distribute the water from high-rainfall areas to the low.
A conceptual cross section of the canal, showing the cut-and fill of the
hillside and/or excavation and fill of the 15 meter deep X 100 meter wide canal
on level ground would be an essential item along with the contour map
layout.>TWO WAY FLOWIn a canal--will mean " no source and no sink"Where will
the water come from?Where will the water go?What is the purpose of this
stagnant water?This is what every unclever (like us) would want to be
enlightened .Mukul C MahantEngineer (IIT'57)guwahati,Assam
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 09:44:42 -0500To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: [Assam] [WaterWatch] Re: Dr Kalam's
obsession with DIVERSION of RIVERS
Dear Mr. Ponraj:
Greetings.
I am always available for discussing this subject. But since it is a public
matter, I prefer to discuss it publicly only. I encourage you to be candid and
to the point. If I am not mistaken you are an engineer. While I am NOT an
engineer (I am in an allied profession, Architecture) I understand topography;
excavation,fill and erosion; silting; fundamental concepts of drainage and
water flow etc., fairly well.
I am hoping you will be able to persuade Mr. Kamaraj and his cadre of
engineering 'experts ' to place in their web-site what you said is already
there: A layout of the proposed 'two-way-flow' canal on a contour map of the
terrains where it is expected to hold and distribute the water from
high-rainfall areas to the low. A conceptual cross section of the canal,
showing the cut-and fill of the hillside and/or excavation and fill of the 15
meter deep X 100 meter wide canal on level ground would be an essential item
along with the contour map layout.
If you cannot get Mr. Kamaraj's group to do that, perhaps you or your
co-supporters of the concept will do that. You can scan the map and cross
section concept and request the Waterwatch website moderator to post it. But a
continued refusal of Mr. Kamaraj and his brain -trust to refuse to explain
their scheme could mean only one thing: That they don't know what they speak of.
And finally if you are unable to get that done either thru Mr. Kamaraj's expert
panel of engineers, or with your own resources, I will be pleased to do that
for you. But you will need to provide me with a contour map of a reasonable
scale, such as in 2 meter intervals of elevation; something I have been unable
to acquire from my many attempts internationally. You don't need to send such a
map of the entire sub-continent. A segment encompassing one-kilometer of length
of the proposed canal, along with the creeks, channels and rivers that occur in
the area, will suffice to get the concept across.
I will be remiss if I did not caution you about the result of any such
conceptual contour maps and cross sections: Those who are trained to read
these, will take an extremely dim view of the engineering acumen of the people
who are proposing it.
Best regards.
cm
At 6:26 PM +0100 3/30/07, ponraj gnanaraj wrote:
Dear Mr.Mahanta,
Allow me to talk to you. Give me your contact details so that I can meet you in
person or call you. It is people like you who are interested in the real
welfare of our country. I will be back in India on 13th April. But keep writing
your questions. Let us build our India.
Bye for now, Yours, G.Ponraj, 30/03/[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
*** First off, I was not citing the Aral Sea drying up example in opposition to
Sri Kamaraj'sscheme. I cite the other more pertinent issues; like how
uninformed the whole premise of the scheme is; on the basis of topoghraphy, on
the basis of the enormous destruction it could, if undertaken, bring about and
so forth. I also underscored what DineshMishra pointed out about the wisdom or
more vaccurately the absence of which, in proposing all those numerous earthen
dams the scheme must depend on. Last but not the least was the most basic
physical law whose understanding is absent in the proposal that Sudhir
Vombatkarte clearly piointed out: That water does NOT flow in the absence of a
head, even though I mean it only literally here.I also have this uncanny
feeling that the President's name is being falsely dragged into this uterly
foolish concept. I cannot imagine that any engineer with an ordinary amount of
understanding of the physics of water-flow and understanding of topography
would touch the proposal with a ten foot pole. What this proposal means is that
wherever this two-way flow canal is built, be it at a 300 m elevation or be it
at 500m, it will, of necessity , follow the contours of the terrain it is set
in. Thus it will block every river, every creek, every water channel and every
depression on the ground in its path that ordinarily would channel the water
from higher elevations to the valleys and and plains below. In other words it
will DAM everey waterway in its path, creating flood plains and water storage
basins upstreams of this structure.
If there ever was a more ridiculous proposal, I have not seen it yet. I have
trouble believing the President somehow blessing or supporting it.But I would
submit, it just might be me and others like me who is/are lacking a head here;
unable to visualize the concept or realize its potential. So once again I
suggest that Sri Kamaraj and/or the proponents lay bare the folly of people
like this writer by laying out the schematics on an up-to date contour map of
the terrain it is proposed for, together with a schematic cross section of this
100 meter wide X 10 ( ?) m deep canal that would hold the water high enough to
create enough of a head from water surging into it from its catchment areas
upstream and allow it to flow to those water starving areas far away.Thyat is
what an engineer worth her salt would start with.cm---- ponraj gnanaraj wrote:>
Note: what is the reponse of ponraj gnanaraj to the message Posted by: "Chan
Mahanta">> He wrote: Mr. Kamraj and others like him who have peddled a lot of
half-truths regarding ILR and now this National Water Ways Project.>> When a
lay-person parrots patently untenable ideas in the guise of>
technical/engineering/scientific truths, not having a clue what> those might
really mean, like our other friend Dr. Kalyanraman used> to; it is one thing.
But it is quite another, when these are spouted> by self-described or
'officially recognized 'experts' , be it Mr.> Kamraj or be it Mr. Pandit. Dr
Dinesh Mishra gave graphic and tragic examples of it. The mere fact of Mr.
Kamraj being able to cite The President's concurrence with his scheme in public
is scary. We cannot not remember the SC's verdict regarding ILR, its
interpretation by the administration and the fallout along with the
expenditures incurred so far is nothing less than a national scandal.>> That
brings me to another point: The need to go to the SC or to> petition the PM or
the President for resolution of every conflict,> large or small. While it is
easy to understand it in light of the> dysfunction of the normal and usual
institutions of democratic> governance and the impossibility of forging the
political will to the right things thru the specific institutions of state
designed to> address these issues, the need to move the SC on such complicated>
matters is a dangerous thing in itself. Do their Lordships have the>
appropriate resources at their disposal to JUDGE the merits of such> schemes?
Can they hold public hearings , receive input from affected> parties, get
technical/scientific opinions from trusted and respected voices, obtain
trustworthy cost-benefit reports; so on and so forth?>> The right forum for
such thorough, public and transparent> examinations on matters of such national
importance would be the Lok> Sabha or the Rajya Sabha. On the other hand, if
the SC is moved, and> it hands out as verdict without the benefit of a thorough
examination of the many factors involved and it happens to be the WRONG
verdict, people will be stuck with it for ever, since there is no appeal to an
SC verdict. On the other hand a bad decision by the elected bodies can be
corrected later, if need be.>> Finally, Dr Mishra pointed out an extremely
important element of this NWP canal to be constructed at 500 m elevation ( or
300 m): That it will be a monster earthen dam, from here to eternity. ALL of
the terrain surrounding the Brahmaputra valley at such an elevation ( 500 m or
even 300m) are up in the mountains where the contours undulate many times
within the span of a kilometer, zigzagging in and out from ridges to ravines.
So the 100 m wide canal will have to cut into the ridges, scarring the entire>
rim of the valley, with massive erosion like man has not seen> anywhere on the
face of this planet yet. And on the other side ,> there will have to be even
more massive filling of an already sloping> face, which of necessity , will be
steep, and will erode even more> dramatically with the onset of the first
monsoon. Imagine the silting> of the hundreds of tributaries of the Brahmaputra
and the rice
> producing low-lands that will ensue. Silting is one of the primary> causes of
> the present flooding of the valley to begin with.> And such silting will
> drown out the rich topsoil of the rich rice> lands, turning them into a clay
> mire. But the worst is yet to come:> Each of the thousands of valleys that
> the canal will block, will be> turned into minor to major reservoirs upstream
> of the canal. The> canal will act like thousands of earthen dams, except
> these could> not be built like dams. It will have to be ordinary PWD
> earth-moving> operations, and of commensurate quality.>> And need I go into
> what will happen when one such dam gives ? That it will happen is a
> certainty, be it from rains or from seismic activity.>> cm>> ponraj gnanaraj
> wrote:>> Re: Dr Kalam's obsession with DIVERSION of RIVERS> With due respect
> for your note I have decided to reply.> Man has been always changing the Eco
> system for his benefits starting from the ponds and dams he built to the
> cultivation he did. Your example of Aral sea is true. Please remember Aral
> sea is a land locked water source which is not applicable here. There is no
> secret in National waterways project. Fundamental details are available at
> www.nationalwaterways.com Contour canal of NWP is at a uniform height and
> that is the reason for â*˜NO PUMPINGâ*™ anywhere on the waterway. It is high
> time you take him seriously, understand the project and support it so that
> you become part of the Engineering crew to make our India a beautiful and
> rich country in the world. Thanks for your active participation in the
> discussions. Bye for now, G.Ponraj, 22/03/2007>>>
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