C'da,
>**** WHO is this AUTHORITY that holds the right to GRANT or DENY autonomy Ram? >Where did it get such rights from? I do understand your consternation, but, if one were to apply, request, demand autonomy, where or whom do they approach? In India, I think it would be Dilli. Now, you can argue about this philosophically, and question this authority. And I understand that too. But, the fact of the matter is it the Center that has to be approached, whether one likes it or not. It is the Center, in it's infinite wisdom, that ultimately decides such matters. >**** It is NOT a REWARD Ram. To have good, effective, responsive and honest governance is a FUNDAMENTAL >right. OK, I grant you that. So, will an autonomy resolve that problem? >*** They are DEPENDANT today NOT by their choice. It is because Dilli has slowly but surely >accumulated all the powers, and the most important of all, the purse-strings. It controls the disbursement >of the funds like the powerful head of a Zamindary might, holding control over his clan. And thus has robbed >generations of Indians of the notion that THEY ought to be responsible for their own finances. And when >SOME remote authority sends them out as gifts of their kindness, there cannot be any clamor for accountability. >Who cares, it is Dilli's money after all? Ugh! I had to read this over a couple of times - then I realized, you are actually making a case why it is NOT the fault of the State (like Assam) when funds sent from the center are misappropriated at will. It may be Dilli's money, but they did send it for the betterment of people in that state - not just for some ministers in the GOA. >If the funds that are stolen from Assam's coffer, came from taxes paid by the people of Assam, they will be >far more apt to know WHERE those funds are going and WHAT they are getting in return. Then what about the municipality taxes, the GOA taxes, sales tax. Those are taxes levied by a local authority on the local population. So what is it that they get in return. C'da, this is one of the lamest excuses you have come up with. :-) >*** And WHO is this CENTER who holds the rights over who it shall give autonomy, who independence or who >the status of its colonies? Who gave it those rights? OK - then why, oh why are all these 'demands' for autonomy. Why don't these entities just declare themselves autonomous or independent, and go about their merry way? --Ram On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 1:06 PM, Chan Mahanta <cmaha...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > When we talk about autonomy, it is obvious that every entity that wants > > autonomy should not be granted one (just because they want it). > > > > **** WHO is this AUTHORITY that holds the right to GRANT or DENY autonomy > Ram? > Where did it get such rights from? > > **** IF autonomy is a MEANS for delivering good governance, to provide > accountable governance, to > deliver RESPONSIVE governance, to be ACCOUNTABLE for its finances, means -- > it MUST be available to all > who WANT it. Similarly if some prefer to be ruled by Dilli, it is their > choice. > > > > So, it comes down to who and what qualify or rather meet the standards > > (whatever those may be). As repeated elsewhere, the Mahantas or the > > Haatimurias just can't have autonomy (a state for themselves) just > because > > they feel passionate about it. > > **** It is NOT a REWARD Ram. To have good, effective, responsive and honest > governance is a FUNDAMENTAL > right. That is why what you propose is and ought to be an absolutely > UNACCEPTABLE proposition. > > > > > They should be dependent on the Center only for a few things like defense > - > > and not assume that the center is a Kamadhenu of sorts, and come back > > running to it for things that only please them. > > > *** They are DEPENDANT today NOT by their choice. It is because Dilli has > slowly but surely > accumulated all the powers, and the most important of all, the > purse-strings. It controls the disbursement > of the funds like the powerful head of a Zamindary might, holding control > over his clan. And thus has robbed > generations of Indians of the notion that THEY ought to be responsible for > their own finances. And when > SOME remote authority sends them out as gifts of their kindness, there > cannot be any clamor for accountability. > Who cares, it is Dilli's money after all? > > If the funds that are stolen from Assam's coffer, came from taxes paid by > the people of Assam, they will be > far more apt to know WHERE those funds are going and WHAT they are getting > in return. > > Dilli goes about creating new states, with little more than rubber-stamping > by a compliant parliament with a simple majority > or even a thread-bare co-alition, to mollify a restive population, > regardless of their ability to sustain themselves. So, what > do you expect then ? WHO will have to foot the bill. And when you complain > about that you complain without having a clue > about the REASONS for it. > > > Given this, are there any such entities, who can and are able to take > care > > of a majority of things for themselves, and also be accountable to the > > people? > > **** You cannot ask for those examples without first creating such > entities, giving them the FREEDOM to > forge their OWN TOOLS , not by forcing them to use the broken, > dysfunctional ones devised by Dilli, > to run their lives. > > > > If there are such places, they should be given autonomy. I think that > sort > > of thing will generate a lot of support. > > > > > > But decisions should not be taken willy nilly - just because > > 'autonomy' happens to be the flavor of the day, > > or because some people are very passionate about an autonomy (now that > > outright independence is out of reach). > > > **** Yiou don't get it , do you Ram :-)? See above. > > > > Of course, the Center probably also understands (unless it is really > dense), > > that some demands for autonomy > > are seeded with ultimate aims of secession. It ought to be able to see > > through such facades. > > > **** And WHO is this CENTER who holds the rights over who it shall give > autonomy, who independence or who > the status of its colonies? Who gave it those rights? > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 14, 2010, at 12:37 PM, Ram Sarangapani wrote: > > > C'da > > > >> AUTONOMY, is the way for such redemption for some. And a true and > > meaningful FEDERAL arrangement > >> could be for others. > > > > I am all for autonomy - but as you rightly said the devil is in the > details. > > > > > > Let us agree on that. > > > > When we talk about autonomy, it is obvious that every entity that wants > > autonomy should not be granted one (just because they want it). > > > > So, it comes down to who and what qualify or rather meet the standards > > (whatever those may be). As repeated elsewhere, the Mahantas or the > > Haatimurias just can't have autonomy (a state for themselves) just > because > > they feel passionate about it. > > > > It is also important that those clamoring for autonomy and passionate of > > taking control of their own destinies do so in thunder, lightening, or in > > rain. > > > > They should be dependent on the Center only for a few things like defense > - > > and not assume that the center is a Kamadhenu of sorts, and come back > > running to it for things that only please them. > > > > Given this, are there any such entities, who can and are able to take > care > > of a majority of things for themselves, and also be accountable to the > > people? > > > > If there are such places, they should be given autonomy. I think that > sort > > of thing will generate a lot of support. > > > > But decisions should not be taken willy nilly - just because > > 'autonomy' happens to be the flavor of the day, > > or because some people are very passionate about an autonomy (now that > > outright independence is out of reach). > > > > Of course, the Center probably also understands (unless it is really > dense), > > that some demands for autonomy > > are seeded with ultimate aims of secession. It ought to be able to see > > through such facades. > > > > --Ram > > > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 11:38 AM, Chan Mahanta <cmaha...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > >>> I completely agree. But you aren't trying to paint with a broad brush > are > >>> you ? :-). > >> > >> **** It is not a broad-brushing based on small or isolated examples. It > is > >> the NORM, the > >> prevailing condition. Do you disagree? > >> > >>> In fact, when people demand a correction > >>> (as in CWG, or Hemanta Sarma) - things often fall in line. Such > >>> participation is paramount for a healthy democracy. > >> > >> *** So, is it something NEW? That has not been tried or done before? > >> But what has changed? > >> > >> > >> Participation YES, but that is an all encompassing truism. Like the > truth > >> shall prevail. > >> Or honesty is the best policy. Question is HOW, WHEn, WHO? The Devil > here > >> is in the details. > >> > >> > >> What is OBVIOUS is that India does not have, it cannot muster the > POLITICAL > >> will > >> to CHANGE things. It cannot if it tried. It is TOO fRACTURED, it is > TOO > >> disparate. > >> It tries the one size fits all approach, and gets nowhere. It will get > >> nowhere. > >> > >> That is why it is paramount that the disparate peoples organize into > >> smaller entities and > >> devise ways to manage their destinies , to be RESPONSIVE to their unique > >> needs, WITHOUT > >> being held to ransom by far-flung forces that have NO DESIRE or ABILITY > to > >> deal with THEIR > >> specific needs. > >> > >> AUTONOMY, is the way for such redemption for some. And a true and > >> meaningful FEDERAL arrangement > >> could be for others. > >> > >> That is the bottom line. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Aug 14, 2010, at 10:38 AM, Ram Sarangapani wrote: > >> > >>> C'da, > >>> > >>>> What you always seem to miss, is this problem of ENFORCEMENT, of > >>> investigating, adjudicating > >>>> and punishing the corrupt, of punishing bad behavior and rewarding the > >>> good. > >>> > >>> Actually, I didn't miss it, just thought it is a given. > >>> > >>> Just enforcement too is not enough - the court systems are over > burdened, > >>> and so are the good cops. > >>> > >>>> Generations of Indian now have not seen anything different. Many think > >> that > >>> is how it IS, others think > >>>> "they are like that only", yet others who know that it ought not be > so, > >> but > >>> have no faith at all that things > >>>> could ever be changed. Also, generations of Indians have grown up > >> thinking > >>> and believing that > >>>> they have democracy, the best, and things will take care of itself > after > >>> they performed the > >>>> rituals of elekshuns. > >>> > >>> I completely agree. But you aren't trying to paint with a broad brush > are > >>> you ? :-). In fact, when people demand a correction > >>> (as in CWG, or Hemanta Sarma) - things often fall in line. Such > >>> participation is paramount for a healthy democracy. > >>> > >>> --Ram > >>> > >>> On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 9:59 AM, Chan Mahanta <cmaha...@gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >>> > >>>> What you always seem to miss, is this problem of ENFORCEMENT, of > >>>> investigating, adjudicating > >>>> and punishing the corrupt, of punishing bad behavior and rewarding the > >>>> good. > >>>> > >>>> Generations of Indian now have not seen anything different. Many think > >> that > >>>> is how it IS, others think > >>>> "they are like that only", yet others who know that it ought not be > so, > >> but > >>>> have no faith at all that things > >>>> could ever be changed. Also, generations of Indians have grown up > >> thinking > >>>> and believing that > >>>> they have democracy, the best, and things will take care of itself > after > >>>> they performed the > >>>> rituals of elekshuns. When it does not, they whine and moan. But they > >> also > >>>> need to LIVE, make a living. > >>>> And they know ALL too well, that it is only ONE life to live. > >>>> > >>>> So what is your magic bullet for fixing thins. Is there ant y? > >>>> > >>>> Or could it be that a whole slew of things have to be done, over time, > >> to > >>>> turn things around. > >>>> > >>>> And WHO will do that? WHEN? Has it started. Will it ever? > >>>> > >>>> If it has not even started, how could it be started? If it has, where, > >>>> what, how? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 9:48 AM, Ram Sarangapani wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> C'da, > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks for fwding this. Really good - just loved it. > >>>>> > >>>>>> Only one complaint: Tiwari shoud have addressed it to the WORST of > >> them > >>>>> all, not ALL of India. Ain't right to paint everyone with the same > >> brush. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> But let's look at it from Tiwari's angle: Everywhere he looks, there > is > >>>>> corruption - it's only a matter of degrees. While one might argue > that > >> a > >>>>> whole set of corrupt leaders are leading (and forcing) an easily > >>>> corruptible > >>>>> mass, such that corruption has become a way of life, and no longer an > >>>>> exception, but the rule - it must only be the fault of these > >> leaders.... > >>>>> > >>>>> It does take two to tango. > >>>>> > >>>>> In the end, it all boils down to : do you pay Rs. 500 extra, and > catch > >>>> your > >>>>> flight back to the US, or do you stand your ground, and hold on to > >> those > >>>>> ideals, and maybe miss that flight. > >>>>> I would catch that flight :-), > >>>>> and still use the broad brush & blame all - bribers, and the bribees > >> :-) > >>>>> > >>>>> --Ram > >>>>> > >>>>> On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 8:57 AM, Chan Mahanta <cmaha...@gmail.com> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> I loved this one. Only one complaint: Tiwari shoud have addressed > it > >> to > >>>>>> the WORST of them all, not ALL of India. Ain't right to paint > >> everyone > >>>> with > >>>>>> the same brush. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> cm :-) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >> > http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bugs-eye-view/entry/mr-kalmadi-s-fake-statement > >>>>>> Mr Kalmadi's (fake) statementAlok Tiwari, 14 August 2010, 02:53 PM > >> IST > >>>>>> Last night I dreamt I was appointed the speechwriter and > propagandist > >>>> for > >>>>>> Commonwealth Games Organising Committee chief Suresh Kalmadi. The > >>>>>> appointment happened through a dubious process the details of which > I > >>>> shall > >>>>>> not bore you with. It was for an obscene amount of money paid into > my > >>>>>> numbered Swiss bank account. As one of my first assignments, I wrote > >> the > >>>>>> following statement for Mr Kalmadi: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> My fellow citizens, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Over the last few weeks, I have read and watched a series of reports > >>>> about > >>>>>> corruption in the organizing of Commonwealth Games. It has pained me > >> no > >>>> end. > >>>>>> Some of those things I have tried to explain but what has shocked me > >> is > >>>> the > >>>>>> demand for my exit. Each day there is a new disclosure and the > chorus > >>>> begins > >>>>>> again. Therefore, I decided to confront the question head on. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Yes, corruption has taken place in holding of the games. Trails of > >> quite > >>>> a > >>>>>> few scandals lead right up to my door. So I will not deny it. But > what > >>>> is so > >>>>>> surprising about it? What did I do that had not been done before? To > >> see > >>>> the > >>>>>> outpourings of outrage everywhere, it would appear Indians are > seeing > >>>>>> corruption happen for the first time. Come on, let us shed that garb > >> of > >>>>>> innocence. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Please come with me to the collectorate of any of our nearly 450 > >>>> districts. > >>>>>> Each one presided over by an IAS officer, the best and the brightest > >>>> among > >>>>>> us. Here you find people in their thousands waiting for such > >> commonplace > >>>>>> things as domicile and caste certificates. There are contractors > >> waiting > >>>> for > >>>>>> permits to mine materials such as boulders and gravel. My contractor > >>>> friend > >>>>>> tells me it takes 18 approvals to get one permit. Please try to get > >> just > >>>> one > >>>>>> of them without giving a bribe or using a big name. The same goes > for > >>>> each > >>>>>> certificate. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I could take you to the secretariat of each of our 30-odd states. Or > >> to > >>>>>> ministries in New Delhi where even bigger deals are made. The story > >> will > >>>> be > >>>>>> repeated on a progressively larger scale. Let us travel to any of > the > >>>> RTO > >>>>>> offices. I dare you to have a vehicle registered or transferred, or > >> just > >>>> pay > >>>>>> your tax without going through a tout or paying someone. Why, most > of > >> us > >>>>>> have driving licences. I ask each one of you to keep your hand on > your > >>>> heart > >>>>>> and ask whether you got it by honestly appearing for a test or gave > a > >>>> small > >>>>>> fee to someone to get it for you. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I also want you remember the last time you were booked for jumping a > >>>>>> traffic signal or wrongly parking your car. Did you quietly pay your > >>>> fine or > >>>>>> tried to settle the matter with the cop for a lower amount? Please > get > >>>> me a > >>>>>> birth certificate from your local municipal office in a > >> straightforward > >>>>>> manner. I could say the same about courts but for the risk of being > >>>> hauled > >>>>>> up for contempt. I shall still suggest that you spend a day in the > >> court > >>>>>> complex of any district and check out the exemplary honesty and > >>>> integrity > >>>>>> with which everybody from peon to lawyers to judges work there. Let > us > >>>> then > >>>>>> go to a PWD or an irrigation department office of your choice and > try > >> to > >>>>>> find a road or a dam built with complete honesty. I could go on. But > >> you > >>>> get > >>>>>> the drift, right? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Somebody has thrown a CAG report on my face. Poor CAG has been > writing > >>>> such > >>>>>> reports by the dozens about every department of every government at > >>>> every > >>>>>> level. I am yet to discover their utility other than providing > >>>> particularly > >>>>>> untalented reporters a means to live another day. The toilet paper > in > >> my > >>>>>> bathroom finds better use than those reports. It is the same with > CVC. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> And, ah, the media… How can I forget my friends there? Please ask > them > >>>>>> about the increasingly blurred line between advertising and > >> commercials > >>>> so > >>>>>> that readers do not know what is paid for and what is not. What > >>>> editorial > >>>>>> integrity do we see when interviews and features on movies appear > >>>> sweetly > >>>>>> timed with their release? We had the scandal of paid political news > >>>> during > >>>>>> elections. I am yet to see an editor or an owner hauled over the > coals > >>>> for > >>>>>> that or being asked to demit office. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> No, my compatriots, it is not corruption in CWG that bothers you. If > >>>> that > >>>>>> were the case, you would have lynched every district collector and > >> every > >>>> RTO > >>>>>> in the country by now. You have long made peace with corruption. You > >>>> have > >>>>>> become part of it when you could. It is brazenness and scale of my > >>>>>> corruption that concerns you. That is the novelty element. If my > team > >>>> had > >>>>>> kept itself limited to taking 10 or 20 per cent cut, you would be > >>>> looking > >>>>>> the other way. The media would find it boring to report that. What > >>>> shocks > >>>>>> you is that I paid Rs 9 lakh for hiring a treadmill that could be > had > >>>> for Rs > >>>>>> 45,000. If I had done the deal at Rs 50,000 you would be OK with it. > >> You > >>>> do > >>>>>> not mind people crossing the line. You mind them crossing it too > >> openly. > >>>> But > >>>>>> you forget, friends, that once you allow crossing of lines you > cannot > >>>> set > >>>>>> the rules for it. Also, I have only raised the bar here. Citius, > >> Altius, > >>>>>> Fortius. Isn't that what having games is all about? Give me credit > for > >>>> at > >>>>>> least that (though I'd prefer cash!). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> With all sincerity (or what is left of it amongst us), > >>>>>> Suresh Kalmadi > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Now, if only I could get Mr Kalmadi to sign it… > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> assam mailing list > >>>>>> assam@assamnet.org > >>>>>> http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org > >>>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> assam mailing list > >>>>> assam@assamnet.org > >>>>> http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> assam mailing list > >>>> assam@assamnet.org > >>>> http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> assam mailing list > >>> assam@assamnet.org > >>> http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> assam mailing list > >> assam@assamnet.org > >> http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > assam mailing list > > assam@assamnet.org > > http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org > > > _______________________________________________ > assam mailing list > assam@assamnet.org > http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org > _______________________________________________ assam mailing list assam@assamnet.org http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org
