> Where did you get this phrase? Did she ever say that ULFA has a "right to > bring its demand for sovereignty to the negotiating table".?
Exactly. I too would like to know if Goswami said something like this. If she did not, then Barua you are on the right track. But if she did, the obviously, Goswami cannot be a 'mediator' any more, as she is certainly biased. It seems some are probably assuming that Goswami is representing ULFA. One would hope that she is unbiased, and is just trying to get the discussions afoot, so that there can be peace in Assam. Expectations would be that she is neither for the GOI nor the ULFA. > The key word here is RIGHT. ULFA do not have any RIGHT. Are these fundamental rights guaranteed by the Indian Constitution, that many disparage so much as being inadequate, defunct, and obsolte? How does one grant rights to someone who doesn't believe in the constitutional process in the first place? --Ram On 4/27/05, Rajen Barua <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Question was asked, why my answer to your following question: > > > >Do you not support her in her position > > >>that ULFA should have the right to bring its demand for sovereignty > > >>to the negotiating table? > Was > "----Try to understand Mamoni Goswami's position. She is doing it because > she is a writer by heart. Writers do crazy things. I have full support for > her although the whole Assam is against her. > > Let us try to answer from logical reasoning: > First: Your question is not a valid question and that is why I had to > respond the way I did. > Now you will ask why your question is not a valid one. > Let us again analyse logically: > FIRST : You are asking 'Don't I support her position?' - Here you are making > too many assumptions. > 1) We donot know what is her position, Do we really? Did she tell you what > was her position? Or you assumed something. > 2) On the second half of the question, you seem to suggest what her position > is. and that is according to you , "that ULFA should have the right to bring > its demand for sovereignty to the negotiating table" > Where did you get this phrase? Did she ever say that ULFA has a "right to > bring its demand for sovereignty to the negotiating table".? > As a matter of fact, ULFA does not have a RIGHT, do they? > > Since your question was based on false presumtions, the question of support > doesnot arise. I cannot support her on a position she is not taking. > Therfore, I had to rephrase the question in my response clarifying to you > what she was doing in my view and why I support her what she was doing. > > Probably it did not make sense to your Martian logic. Now if you did not > agree with me, you should have told me that. > > I am still asking you where did you get the idea that she is taking a > position "that ULFA should have the right to bring its demand for > sovereignty to the negotiating table? > > The key word here is RIGHT. ULFA do not have any RIGHT. > Now please prove me wrong. > > Rajen > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chan Mahanta > To: Barua25 ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 8:47 AM > Subject: [Assam] On Logical Reasoning > > I could not have explained logical reasoning better. Fairly well done, even > though some of the examples are not necessarily applicable. But I will > ignore that. Congratulations. > > Now let us apply that to some of our comments/inferences/assertions here in > Assam Net: > > In December, in course of our debates regarding Mamoni Goswami's efforts to > bring the GoI to the negotiating table with the ULFA, I asked: > > > > >Do you not support her in her position > > >>that ULFA should have the right to bring its demand for sovereignty > > >>to the negotiating table? > > The answer we got was: > > "----Try to understand Mamoni Goswami's position. She is doing it because > she is a writer by heart. Writers do crazy things. I have full support for > her although the whole Assam is against her. > > > Now tell us about the kind of 'logical reasoning' you applied to come up > with > the highlighted answer above. > > Also tell us what kind of 'logical reasoning' you applied to come up with > the italicized inference and assertion that the "--the whole Assam is > against her". > > > This is just the appetizer course. I have plenty more examples from recent > weeks to learn about the kind of 'logical reasoning' we are dealing with > here. > > And why this interest in learning about 'logical reasoning'? It is because > of the challenge made yesterday "If ANYBODY can show me with logical > reasoning where the problem is and how to fix it, I will worship him/her as > my Guru. All my life I have been looking for such a Guru. If you know some > such person, please ask him/her to engage with me in a debate and defeat me > with logical reasoning so that I can accept him/her as my Guru." > > It affirmed an unchallengeable command, a monopoly, on 'logical reasoning'. > > And thus, at the risk of appearing uncharitable to my fellow men, I ask. > > > > > > > > > > > > At 12:22 AM -0500 4/27/05, Barua25 wrote: > "Logical reasoning" is not something mystic or difficult to define and > understand. It cannot have too many different meanings. > > Logical reasoning is the Science of principals governing the correct > inference of a statement. > > The following are some examples we may use: > > Situation: There is smoke > Correct Inference: There must be fire. > > Situation: There is fire > Correct Inference: There may or may not be smoke. > > Situation: There is something which looks like snake. > Correct Inference: The thing may or may not be snake. It may be a rope or it > may be anything else. > > Situation: It feels like a rope, it acts like a rope, it looks like a rope, > one can use it like rope. > Correct Inference: It must be a rope. > > In our logical reasoning, we Earthlings generally follow such simple > principals. . > > If you follow these same logical reasoning, I see no problems. But if you > follow some different Martian logic, we will have to test these beforehand > if these will make any sense to us. > > Rajen > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chan Mahanta > To: Barua25 ; Dilip/Dil Deka ; > "ASSAMNETCOLORADO"@mxsf41.cluster1.charter.net ; > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 10:15 PM > Subject: Re: [Assam] Fast Track Courts > > >If ANYBODY can show me with logical reasoning > > > *** That would depend upon how one might define "logical reasoning" . In the > absence of an accompanying definition, readers will have to go by examples > of such 'logical reasoning' displayed in various posts in the recent past. > > Unfortunately the kind of logical reasoning receptors one will have to > satisfy, is not something anyone other than the masochistic, would aspire > to. > > > > > > > > > > At 9:00 PM -0500 4/26/05, Barua25 wrote: > >*** That is obviously the problem. But NOT NOBODY. There are many who know > exactly where the problems are and some have >explained them time and again. > But to accept them would again require to get real. We are obviously not > anywhere near facing >reality, YET. > > > > > If ANYBODY can show me with logical reasoning where the problem is and how > to fix it, I will worship him/her as my Guru. All my life I have been > looking for such a Guru. If you know some such person, please ask him/her > to engage with me in a debate and defeat me with logical reasoning so that > I can accept him/her as my Guru. > > > Rajen > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chan Mahanta > To: Rajen Barua ; Dilip/Dil Deka ; > "ASSAMNETCOLORADO"@mxsf41.cluster1.charter.net ; > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 5:24 PM > Subject: Re: [Assam] Fast Track Courts > > >NOBODY is saying the SYSTEM is perfect. > >All we are trying to find out what is not PERFECT and so that we can make > it PERFECT. > > *** I don't know who is seeking a PERFECT system, but I think most people > will be happy to see even a nominally functioning one. So to invoke the > absence of a PERFECT system, is to attempt to suggest, on the sly, that the > desi system is no different than anything else -- an IMPERFECT one. > > That would be yet another attempt at obfuscation, of denying reality. > Question is why the need for such obvious attempts to hide the truths of > Indian governance. Is it not far better to acknowledge what is wrong and > then attempt to help find solutions? > > > > *** Anyway, I will go along with the heavily sugar-coated 'not-perfect' > euphemism for what is nothing but 'broken and dysfunctional' in English. I > realize the truth hurts and I will play along with the charade for the > moment. > > > But if we have no clue to what is 'not PERFECT', then how do we recommend > all those fine solutions, like NGOs to the rescue, investigative journalism > as the savior, call for the people to RISE ( rise against WHAT?) etc. that > we have been offered in recent days? More charade? Or merely running around > like chickens with the heads cut-off? > > >So far nobody could come up with specific items what need to be fixed. > > *** That is obviously the problem. But NOT NOBODY. There are many who know > exactly where the problems are and some have explained them time and again. > But to accept them would again require to get real. We are obviously not > anywhere near facing reality, YET. > > >Can you help? > > *** Me, help? That depends.If past experience is any guide, when I point out > where the problems lie or how to approach solution scenarios the help > seekers will run helter-skelter again. So what is the use ? > > One can wake up only those who are asleep. > > > > > > > At 1:28 PM -0500 4/26/05, Rajen Barua wrote: > >I would like to hear from those in Assam Net who believe there is nothing > wrong with the SYSTEM, after they read this. > > > > > I don't think you will find ANYBODY who believe there is nothing wrong with > the SYSTEM. > > > NOBODY is saying the SYSTEM is perfect. > All we are trying to find out what is not PERFECT and so that we can make it > PERFECT. > So far nobody could come up with specific items what need to be fixed. > > Can you help? > Rajen > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chan Mahanta > To: Dilip/Dil Deka ; ASSAMNETCOLORADO > Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 12:38 PM > Subject: Re: [Assam] Fast Track Courts > > I did not find any description of what this FTC is. But found the following > from Hindusthan Times. > > I would like to hear from those in Assam Net who believe there is nothing > wrong with the SYSTEM, after they read this. > > cm > > > > > > BEST BAKERY - A SAMPLE OF FAST TRACK JUSTICE > > Author - Anil Chawla > > > Witnesses turned hostile and that led to the acquittal of all the accused > in the Best Bakery Case. But it is a bit more complex than that. The case > is illustrative of the way fast track courts in India are dispensing > justice. There is a need to review the system of fast track courts to > ensure quality and credibility of judicial system. > > > > Today morning's Dainik Bhaskar (local Hindi newspaper) carried an > interesting news-item. There was a theft at the house of Rekha, the famous > film actress, way back in 1986. Rekha lost some jewellery in the theft. The > police acted and recovered the jewellery soon after the theft. It took the > judicial system seventeen years to hand over the jewellery to Rekha. Last > week, she finally got possession of the jewels. > > Rekha should be thankful that her case was handled by a normal court and > not by a fast track court. India's courts have acquired a bad name for > delaying matters for decades. It is often said, "Justice delayed is justice > denied". But two years back Government of India created so-called > "fast-track courts" that have proved the other famous maxim, "Justice > hurried is justice buried". > > Stung by the criticism of backlog of cases, the Government created the > fast-track courts. On last count more than 1000 such courts (target was > 1,734) have been set up all over the country. This was a quick band-aid to > cure a cancerous disease and surprisingly, it seems to be working, at least > on the surface. > > Fast track courts scheme involved an infusion of funds by Central > Government for erecting new court buildings. Retired judges were appointed > on a two-year tenure basis; and lo and behold - fast track courts were > created by executive action without any legislative sanction or provision. > Functional aspects of the fast track courts were left to the judiciary - > simply put, nothing was decided on any functional aspect. The only thing > that we are told is that each judge was given a target to dispose of at > least fourteen sessions cases in a month. > > Disposal mentality has been the key behind the setting up and working of > fast track courts. The performance of a fast track court (even of all other > courts in India now) is judged solely by the number of cases disposed in a > month. There is no evaluation of the quality of judgements. Quantity rather > than quality is the mantra sweeping the judicial system in the country > today. > > The fast track courts scheme made no systemic changes in the judicial > system. No new code of procedure has been created. Retired judges, who have > a past but no future, are dispensing justice at a speed that is truly > mind-boggling. What is interesting is that these same gentlemen never > performed at even half the speed when they were in their regular careers. > > Two reasons are being touted for the extra speed shown by fast track courts > a The judges were cautious during their regular careers since they > were subject to disciplinary proceedings. There can be no disciplinary > proceedings for a person who has already retired and is serving on a short > end-of-career tenure. This combines with a complete absence of > accountability of a judge under Indian legal system. > > > b Some judges are viewing this tenure appointment as a last > opportunity to make some hay while the sun shines. So there is extra effort > at quick wheeling-dealing and disposal of the maximum number of cases. > > > > Ten days back, I had an occasion to spend a day at fast-track courts in > Indore. The advocates were talking openly of this judge being open to > adjustments and that judge being slightly difficult. Stories could be heard > of how a judge can ruin an advocate's career by giving adverse judgements > based on personal whims and fancies. A senior advocate preached to me about > the importance of 'tact and personal relations' (euphemisms for > you-know-what) in this profession. Apparently, earlier when disposal was > slow, a judge had limited power but in these days of quick disposal the > off-bench relationship between judge and advocate is very important. > > > All this loose talk in the court compound is never reported but can be > heard across the country. The effect of this new 'culture' in courts across > the country is a cause of worry. But before that a few more observations - > almost all lawyers with whom I interact complain about the lack of new > business. The courts at Indore were not half as crowded as they used to be > three years ago. Of course, there were huge number of lawyers, but > litigants were much less in numbers. No official records are available, but > I suspect that the number of civil cases filed per year has come down. > Similarly, private complaint criminal cases filed in a year are also coming > down. > > These observations, which need to be confirmed by a more scientific study, > point toward a very serious trend. It seems that the common people are > losing confidence in the judicial system. As a litigant, one cannot feel > too enthused if one's lawyer tells him in whispers that the judge is open > to adjustments. After all, if the judge is open to adjustments, one's > opponent is as likely to be able to manage the adjustments. Justice in such > a case becomes a big gamble (some might call it an auction). Not many would > like to gamble (or participate in a shoddy auction). > > > Combined with this is the attitude of lawyers. Faced with increasing > competition, reducing business and their own insatiable greed - they spare > no efforts to manage, adjust and distort the judicial systems and > procedures, even resorting to arm-twisting of their own clients. The power > of lawyers in the judicial system arises from the basic tenets of > adversarial judicial system where a judge is not supposed to dispense > justice. A judge only hears the arguments of two adversaries and decides > whose arguments are more acceptable. A judge has no power to reject both > sides and order for more detailed presentations, leave alone carrying out > any enquiries or investigations on his own. So if one of the litigants has > an incompetent or lazy or corrupt lawyer, the other side wins in spite of > the judge knowing fully well that balance of justice should tilt the other > way round. > > All these are systemic faults that came fully to the fore in the recent > infamous Best Bakery case. Twelve persons were burnt alive in the bakery > and two went missing on 1 March 2002, in the post-Godhra communal violence. > The case was tried by Justice HU Mahida, Additional Sessions Judge of Fast > Track Court at Vadodara. On 27 June 2003, in a 24-page order the judge > acquitted all the 21 accused. All the key witnesses including the > complainant in the case had turned hostile. The judgement mentioned that > the police have proved weak in handling cases of communal violence. > > No one denies that Best Bakery carnage actually incurred. Obviously, it was > not an act of God that occurred spontaneously without any human > intervention. The court realized that the police have not investigated the > case properly. The court could have thrown the case back at the prosecution > (police) and told them to investigate properly and come back with > sufficient evidence. It may be argued that under the Criminal Procedure > Code, a sessions judge has no such powers. This is a question of law on > which the Court could have sought reference from High Court under section > 395(2) of Criminal Procedure Code. The sessions court could have also > sought a writ from High Court under Article 226 of Constitution asking for > an investigation by another agency, say CBI, in the case. The judge did not > choose to resort to any of these valid legal options and chose to close the > case without nailing anyone responsible for the carnage. > > National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) Chairman AS Anand has termed the > Best Bakery case as a 'miscarriage of justice'. NGOs across the country are > demanding a reopening of the case and a retrial in the case. Apparently, > under the present constitutional and legal provisions, this cannot be done. > No person can be tried twice for the same offence. Of course, the NHRC may > recommend to State Government to file an appeal or revision in High Court. > > > In the midst of this excitement about retrial or in any other way ensuring > justice in the Best Bakery case, the key issue that has somehow been lost > is the issue of the quality of justice-delivery systems and procedures. > Justice Mahida was in a tearing hurry to dispose of the case and did not > mind even if this resulted in 'miscarriage of justice'. The concern in the > case ought not to be the fate of the 21 accused who have been acquitted. > That is important but certainly not as important as the conduct of the > honourable judge and the judicial system. > > NHRC should get over its preoccupation of making to the front-page > headlines by jumping on the bandwagon of a communally charged case. It > should rather spend its time and effort to look at the way the fast track > courts, in specific, and all courts in general have been performing. There > can be no human rights in a society where courts are answerable to none, > act irresponsibly, have no accountability, act with impunity and let > themselves be manipulated by the wheeling-dealing of crooked lawyers and > other external influences. The 'miscarriage of justice' in Best Bakery case > is neither an accident nor an isolated case. It is illustrative of the > deeper malaise that has come to afflict the country's judicial system. > > > NHRC and the nation as a whole must conduct studies that monitor on a > regular basis the quality of judgements delivered and the level of > confidence of the people in the judicial system. Unfortunately, law schools > of Indian universities are in no position to carry out such studies. > Fast-track court scheme was a quick-fix that has apparently worked on the > surface in as much as the backlog of cases has probably gone down and there > is a quick disposal of cases. On the other hand it has led to serious > problems by leading to a gross 'miscarriage of justice' in thousands of > cases leading to an erosion in the institution of judiciary. > > It is a serious matter if courts take seventeen years to return jewellery > seized from a thief to its rightful owner. Our sympathies must go out to > Rekha for the delay, but it would have been worse, if the judge had made > some off-bench 'adjustments' and declared someone else to be the rightful > owner of the jewellery. Unfortunately, that is the game that is being > played across the country in the name of justice, while the country devotes > its attention to individual cases like Best Bakery, ignoring the systemic > issues of quality and credibility of the judicial system as a whole. > > > > > ANIL CHAWLA > > 28 July 2003 > > Please write to me your comments about the above article. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 9:38 AM -0700 4/26/05, Dilip/Dil Deka wrote: > How does a Fast Track Court work? Are they for petty thefts, intimidation > and cases of that sort? Who decides what goes to FTC and what doesn't? Do > magistrates preside over these courts? Do lawyers take part in the process? > > > > > > Is the old trial set-up of a Gaon Panchayat traeted as an FTC? > Dilip > ================================================================ > > Guwahati, Tuesday, April 26, 2005 > EDITORIAL > ________________________________ > > MESSAGE FOR TODAY > He who goes no further than bare justice, stops at the beginning of virtue. > � BLAIR > > Fast Track Courts > It�s a typical instance of coordination between two arms of modern > democratic Governance � executive and judiciary at its worst. As a result, > one of the ideal means of assuring fast redressal of masses grievances at > the minimum of time and expenses � the Fast Track Courts (FTCs) � is now in > the lurch. The moot point is the term of the 11th Finance Commission, under > whose recommendations the FTCs were set up, is over and there is no mention > of any counsel for the continuity of this scheme in the report of the 12th > Finance Commission. This is despite the fact that the performances of these > FTCs had come in for appre! ciation from the Supreme Court. Mentionably, > taking a serious view of the issue, the apex Court in an interim order on > March 30 had ordered extension of the FTCs till April 30, 2005. Union Law > Minister HR Bharadwaj is also on record as saying four days later that the > Centre is keen on continuing with these Courts as �scrapping them down would > be a retrograde step�. The 11th Finance panel had given a grant of Rs 509 > crore for the setting up of 1,734 FTCs across the country which were to > continue till March 31 this year. However, the case now remains hanging. > > > To ensure the uninterrupted flow of funds for the FTCs, the Justice > Department should have well in advance approached either the Finance > Ministry with a non-plan scheme or the Planning Commission for a plan > scheme. On the contrary, the Department kept waiting for the recommendation > of the 12th Finance Commission which ultimately resulted in the present > crisis. The folly was that it acted upon the assumption that the 12th ! > Finance Commission would adopt a positive approach in the case. What is > more, the Finance panel�s report could not be made available to the > Department before the finalization of its budget process. Therefore, it did > not get the time to pursue it further. Belatedly though, a Parliamentary > Committee has recommended that the Justice Department should take up the > matter with the State Governments for providing funds to them. The > Parliamentary Standing Committee on Personal, Public Grievances and Law and > Justice, in its report tabled in Parliament, said in these circumstances, > the Justice Department should �vigorously pursue this issue with the Finance > Ministry or the Planning Commission and till the scheme is finalized, take > up the matter with the State Governments for providing funds to be > reimbursed subsequently by the Central Government.� Under the circumstances, > it remains to be seen what the stand of the Centre would be. Nonetheless, it > is in the fitness of things that the Union G! overnment gives its nod to the > proposal and in the meantime ensure that the necessary steps are taken in > the 12th Finance Commission for inclusion of the clause to extend the life > period of these Courts. > > > A socialist democratic society depends largely on the rule of law that is > quite comprehensive in its scope. It is not merely a tool to safeguard and > advance civil and political rights but also a potent weapon to establish > social, economic, educational and cultural conditions under which human > dignity and his legitimate aspirations are realized. And, the FTCs foot the > bill aptly. Since there cannot be a fair process of law unless it is > accompanied by an effective rule of law structure, it is a must that the > authorities concerned join hands in making these Courts � till now highly > successful � a viable component of the judiciary system. Mere money factor > should not be allowed to act as a spanner in this regard. > > _______________________________________________ > Assam mailing list > [email protected] > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam > > Mailing list FAQ: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html > To unsubscribe or change options: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam > > ________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > Assam mailing list > [email protected] > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam > > Mailing list FAQ: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html > To unsubscribe or change options: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam > > ________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > Assam mailing list > [email protected] > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam > > Mailing list FAQ: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html > To unsubscribe or change options: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam > > > > ________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > Assam mailing list > [email protected] > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam > > Mailing list FAQ: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html > To unsubscribe or change options: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam > > > > _______________________________________________ > Assam mailing list > [email protected] > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam > > Mailing list FAQ: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html > To unsubscribe or change options: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam > > > _______________________________________________ Assam mailing list [email protected] http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam Mailing list FAQ: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html To unsubscribe or change options: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam
